One option I mentioned repeatedly is keeping one or more back up spell books spread out in different places (depending on the campaign, this can be different places in the country or different places in town or different planes).
Another option I mentioned is accepting the cost of the potential loss and being prepared to build a new spell book from purchased scrolls.
Another option is to cast Instant Summons the master spell book and heavily ward it against damage as well as putting it in a well protected tower and adventure with traveling spell books which are copies of that master spell book.
So your ONLY options are making expensive and time consuming copies of your spellbook. Those are not options to protect your spellbook at all, but all those accept the ability of any old no one to destroy it and you just start over like a shmuck. Because anything else would be bad role playing. *eyeroll*
What do you mean by "ward against damage"? What spell does this? Instant Summons is an expensive 6th level spell. Can a wizard do NOTHING before 11th level to protect his very livelihood?
Sure players have the right to try to optimize. I was the one who passed encounter alone while other players were watching. Few weeks ago I retired an inquisitor (I don't bother too much if character are overpowered at leve 18th or 20th, but when they are at middle levels).
Btw, some years ago I was like "aw, I'm the best." Now I want that if this happens I'm sure that is a fair play, not only because I know rules better and I can use it to overpower my pc. I'm also a GM, and I have to adapt rules to keep game balanced and funny. The "fun for being awesome" is a good thing, but can be an all day situation. I played for 20 years, and I'm not going to stop. All of my players should have fun, and all of them should have the chance to make a very good character. I can give advise on build, and (after session) on tactics.
This is my way. It's clear that everyone has his (sometimes not much fair, btw).
The real good player is the one who enjoy and don't ruin the fun of others, instead he improves it.
The real good player is the one who enjoy and don't ruin the fun of others, instead he improves it.
On this we concur. And this is, I hope, how I try to play the game.
Which is why I can play a rogue and not feel in the slightest any sense of suckiness just because the party happens to contain a wizard.
In my games we are 3 GM (alternate role). I used to play a inquisitor. Ehm, usually is my character that need to be retired (just 3 times in 20 years of play). All of my players are old friends, and all have the same goal I have. I'm the best at using rules to make strong character, but I'm not necessarily the best at using rules to create fun (I try to do my best, obviously ^_^).
Now, wizards can't do what rogue do, maybe they can a few times in a day, but not as effective. Casters are maybe the type of class that can vary a lot (spells are so many) but if they want to focus they have to do on what they are the best (magic, of course) not mimic other classes.
If someone is interested I have some house rules that are good for balance. For example, I don't use weapon finesse. Some weapons just are meant to be used that way. Dex based melee should be encouraged, and I can't think on a rapier used with str.
Well, looks like this has turned into a debate over GM Fiat rather than God builds for wizard.
Well it does suck when the DM sends assassins to kill the assassins sent to kill the assassins that killed the target, when the PCs keep catching them but the GM doesn't want them to find out who sent the first assassins. It sucked in 3.0 and 3.5 when a DM started throwing only Undead, Constructs, etc. because they were sick of the Rogue's sneak attack. Or one of my favorites:
"You see flashing lights and hear sirens coming close. Squad cars and SWAT trucks round the corner of the block. The cars pull screach to a halt and officers jump out, weapons drawn. What do you do?"
"Um, I turned invisible when I first noticed the lights and sirens" (this was at night btw)
"It's to late, I've described the scene."
These are examples of bad storytelling.
However, saying that a GM is a jerk to throw a monster that is immune to criticals because it negates the rogue's sneak attack, throwing a monster with Improved Sunder (or a Rust Monster), or has an intelligent NPC target a wizard's spellbook at one point is just bad sportsmanship. Oh no, that jerk GM just threw an Iron golem when I don't have the right spells to slow or damage it! That bastard!
As for why a villian might have someone steal the a spellbook rather than just murdering them, here's one off the top of my head:
I'm the villian hiding in the royal court. The pcs have gained the attention of the court due to some act. I see this as a great opportunity to use the PCs against a rival in the court and as a distraction for some other plan I have brewing. So I have a minion go in the disguise of a servant of my rival to hire a group of thieves to steal the wizard's spellbook, something that will most likely get the pcs to go after the thieves. The thieves are to deliver said spellbook to my minion who is near my rival's manor and will slip it inside still under disguise.
Now here is were you have to be careful of steamrolling the pcs to pull off your plot as GM. Make sure your npcs have a plan and stick to it or react appropriately to changes as they come up. If you've seen any heist movies you'll know that thieves will observe their marks and come up with a plant to steal the X item. How competent they are is largely up to you, but this would open the thieves up to the potential of being noticed by a particularly perceptive PC. You shouldn't just say thieves break in and steal your book, sorry it happens because I need it to happen. Think of how thieves would react to being spotted and confronted socially and/or violently. What happens if they capture the thieves or tail them back and capture your minion. Be prepared when running this type of encounter to give the pcs a fair shot.
This doesn't mean that you can't have your minion prepared with some items to help him get away should the pcs catch up to him before he can stash the book, just be prepared that the pcs might find a way to catch your disguised minion, which might be the villian's worst case scenerio in the plot. If this outcome is avoided, then the villian has at least distracted the pcs and a rival. If the pcs get the full on win, then let them unmask the real villian or whatever.
That's just one situation. On the otherside, I just played a game last week were we broke into a 5th or 6th level wizard's house to steal his spellbooks for our wizard. Why shouldn't a GM be able to do the same?
Wizards are considered powerful because they can fill all roles not because they're the best at a single role. This discussion isn't going to end well I suspect.
Treantmonk's "god wizard" was named so because he acted like a 'god' -- he would empower his chosen champions to win the fight for him, instead of coming down out of the heavens to win the fight himself.
A "you can't do anything to me because I'm prepared for everything" wizard is Schrodinger's Wizard because everyone claims to see it but it never seems to be there when anyone looks (which by the way was supposed to be Schrodinger criticizing a bit of quantum theory not him explaining it to students -- he thought the idea was absurd at the time).
All that said I personally as a GM don't worry about the wizard taking too many precautions to protect his spell book. After all each spell cast or gold piece spent is on the off chance an encounter might try to affect his spell book instead of him. It's resources spent that can't be spent on beating whatever encounter I did plan for him for the day and basically are wasted up until the minute I decide that I actually am ready to do something to the spell book.
Now consider this as a resources expended to event happening ratio: He's spent resources everyday for days on end until the exact moment I actually do it -- it's highly likely that if you account for each day he protected his spell book that something didn't target it by the time you do target it he's probably spent well over 1000% of his daily resources (over time) protecting that book.
Compare this to the measly 20% that each equal CR encounter is supposed to drain from the party.
To me it sounds like a wizard that listened loud and clear when his master told him all those boogie man stories about a wizard not protecting his book and then suffering a horrible fate because of it. It also looks to me as a player that realizes and respects his weakness enough to do what is needed to protect it, and respects the GM enough to think he might need to protect it.
That certainly isn't a slap in the face to me as a GM -- it's a gesture of respect to the fact that I can make his life miserable.
Why a rogue? Why not a 10 year old peasant with no measurable skills? I mean, a wizard can use magic to replace everything a rogue can do. A god build wizard can replace everything a rogue can do as often as would ever be needed. Do you enjoy playing a wallflower?
The real good player is the one who enjoy and don't ruin the fun of others, instead he improves it.On this we concur. And this is, I hope, how I try to play the game.
Which is why I can play a rogue and not feel in the slightest any sense of suckiness just because the party happens to contain a wizard.
I'm pretty sure I could make a 10 year old peasant with no measurable skills fun too. But I happen to prefer playing rogues with measurable skills.
A dragon are you some sort of optimizer or something?!
He said "fun" not "awesome" while most people forget it the two are not the same thing.
What spell does this? Instant Summons is an expensive 6th level spell. Can a wizard do NOTHING before 11th level to protect his very livelihood?
Book Ward from Seekers of Secrets does this.
And how is hiding in a tower any better than hiding in a rope trick, magnificent mansion, or demiplane?
The context of this discussion is the need to cast spells like "rope trick" to hide in extra-dimensional spaces because the wizard is terrified that if he doesn't take such extreme actions, someone or something will steal his spellbook.
My description is of a wizard who has a home in the prime material plane. Presumably the decision to hide out in another plane is due to the fear that mere walls, doors and magical wards cannot protect the caster from the spellbook stealing hordes that plague the prime material plane.
How is it "better?" I suppose from the paranoid wizard's perspective it must not be better, or he wouldn't be wasting spells on rope trick or mage's magnificent mansion.
It's not "hiding" either. It's going home. Yes it's a home that he has long ago taken great pains to make extremely difficult to locate, but that was one and done. Now it's just home.
]Those are not options to protect your spellbook at all, but all those accept the ability of any old no one to destroy it and you just start over like a shmuck.Of course putting wards on your spell book will protect it. What it won't do is provide 100% protection, nor should it.
Just like a Fighter who will never receive 100% protection from melee weapons from his armor class, yet continues to seek better and better armor class, so, too, the wizard should always seek better and better protection for his spell book.
Except, and here's the important part, there ARE NO SPELLS that do such a thing in Pathfinder.
Except, and here's the important part, there ARE NO SPELLS that do such a thing in Pathfinder.]Those are not options to protect your spellbook at all, but all those accept the ability of any old no one to destroy it and you just start over like a shmuck.Of course putting wards on your spell book will protect it. What it won't do is provide 100% protection, nor should it.
Just like a Fighter who will never receive 100% protection from melee weapons from his armor class, yet continues to seek better and better armor class, so, too, the wizard should always seek better and better protection for his spell book.
Hmm... well, I just did a quick scan of wizard/sorcerer spells and I came up with at least a dozen that could be described as wards or protection spells that could apply easily to protecting spellbooks, and I stopped before I finished level 3. Seems to me that a clever wizard can come up with lots and lots of ways to protect his spellbooks. With a bit of spell research I'm sure even more would not be difficult to acquire.
Hmm... well, I just did a quick scan of wizard/sorcerer spells and I came up with at least a dozen that could be described as wards or protection spells that could apply easily to protecting spellbooks, and I stopped before I finished level 3. Seems to me that a clever wizard can come up with lots and lots of ways to protect his spellbooks. With a bit of spell research I'm sure even more would not be difficult to acquire.Except, and here's the important part, there ARE NO SPELLS that do such a thing in Pathfinder.]Those are not options to protect your spellbook at all, but all those accept the ability of any old no one to destroy it and you just start over like a shmuck.Of course putting wards on your spell book will protect it. What it won't do is provide 100% protection, nor should it.
Just like a Fighter who will never receive 100% protection from melee weapons from his armor class, yet continues to seek better and better armor class, so, too, the wizard should always seek better and better protection for his spell book.
Please share with the rest of the class.
To me, a ward has to be a)a permanent part of the book like a magic item or b)last 24 hours at low levels if it is a spell. It has to either a)make the book invisible b)make the book untraceable c)protect it from physical and magical damage. d)protect it from being stolen.I see no spells that do those things that aren't easily gotten around by anyone who actually WANTS to steal your spellbook.
Cheap protection falls under the "you get what you pay for", nevertheless it does exist - explosive runes, sepia snake sigil, etc.
I'll ask again, for the umpteenth time. Aside from making a dozen expensive backup copies, which in no means is protecting your spellbook, what are these wards you speak of? As you say, explosive runes and sepia snake sigil, among others, are cheap but rather ineffective.
What are the effective and expensive wards? I've been asking this for days now and no one can answer me.
So at the low levels, since you can't afford to pay for a good protection method other than what you've already stated is unacceptable, a wizard should just accept being relegated to being a commoner?
Regardless of whether or not his spellbook is protected, once the wizard casts one or two spells at low levels, he is already relegated to being a commoner.
I remember we couldn't let the weapon touch the ground when doing push ups. I remember it had to be within arm reach (and that was often too far).
I remember those days, lol.
A PC is not always adventuring. Sometimes he is *gasp* -between- adventures.
My comment about using rope trick all the time was asking about 365 days out of the year - including between adventures. Surprisingly, some party enemies are recurring from one adventure to another. I know that's hard to understand for some of you, but I don't know how to make it any clearer.
Even Bob_Loblow spent time on leave when he was a soldier and he was not on full military alert during those times. NO ONE CAN BE. Soldiers need R&R.
That is why I made the separation between adventuring and down time. Many times people only think of adventuring time, and non-adventure time is not normally played in the game. As far as long-term adventures, when soldiers are deployed, even if it is years at a time due to a war those weapons are always accounted for so as long as I am adventuring I will not put the spellbook(source of my power) at risk. It not only puts my life in danger, but my comrades, and maybe the world. There is no reason to. I can just hand it off to my fellow party member.
I was never that careless in real-life so why should I make my character worse than I am in real life. The same measurements come when you have to handle top-secret equipment in the military. It is always accounted for. When I go to lunch it is signed over to another soldier or lock up behind several keys.
If all you had to rely on was 6 or 7 or whatever the number of people in your party is to secure your weapon locker, how secure do you think your weapon locker would be (keeping in mind that those 6 or 7 people are taking R&R the same time you are).When I was on leave, my weapons were secure in a vault (weapon locker). They were not easily accessible, which is the argument I think that others have been trying to make.
I think that hyper-paranoia is a bit extreme but if it was only once in a while for a player, I wouldn't mind. It's one thing to be protective. It's another to be over-protective to the point of being ridiculous.
That depends on specifics of the campaign, and so on. You can't really argue that wizards don't safe guard their books, and then complain when you find players that do.
It is not like I would ask him to hold it for days at a time. You give me a specific scenario, and I will tell you how safe I am being. If we are still on the bad guys tail I am still in ultra sage mode. If I am in between adventures then I can relax a bit.
To add to the stolen spellbook debate-
Why are spellbooks suddenly conside
A PC is not always adventuring. Sometimes he is *gasp* -between- adventures.
My comment about using rope trick all the time was asking about 365 days out of the year - including between adventures. Surprisingly, some party enemies are recurring from one adventure to another. I know that's hard to understand for some of you, but I don't know how to make it any clearer.
Even Bob_Loblow spent time on leave when he was a soldier and he was not on full military alert during those times. NO ONE CAN BE. Soldiers need R&R.
That is why I made the separation between adventuring and down time. Many times people only think of adventuring time, and non-adventure time is not normally played in the game. As far as long-term adventures, when soldiers are deployed, even if it is years at a time due to a war those weapons are always accounted for so as long as I am adventuring I will not put the spellbook(source of my power) at risk. It not only puts my life in danger, but my comrades, and maybe the world. There is no reason to. I can just hand it off to my fellow party member.
I was never that careless in real-life so why should I make my character worse than I am in real life. The same measurements come when you have to handle top-secret equipment in the military. It is always accounted for. When I go to lunch it is signed over to another soldier or lock up behind several keys. red sacred? I understand that they are important, but so is a fighter's sword. If he doesn't have a backup sword and his is sundered, then he's pretty much screwed for that fight. Does this mean that only a jerk DM would sunder a fighter's sword?
Because a fighter can just pick up another sword. He may not be 100% but at most he's missing the magical bonuses of that weapon.
A wizard that loses his spellbook loses the ENTIRETY of his class abilities. All he has is those spells. It's like a cleric losing favor with his deity, except when it happens it's not because of your own actions but because of some jerk who wants to steal it.
Also, yeah, a DM who sunders your weapon and armor is a jerk.
Its the wizard's own fault if they lose all their spell casting ability when they lose their spell books.
A wizard has multiple options from using read magic (so that when he loses his spell book, he can create another one) to keeping back up spell books.
It is NOT the GM's responsibility to treat the wizard with kiddie gloves because the wizard player refuses to get himself some insurance against bad things happening. When that same wizard is a "god build" (ie. significantly more powerful than all the other characters), the GM not only is not responsible to treat the wizard with kiddie gloves, the GM is obligated to take active steps to make sure everyone gets an equal chance to shine. [/QUOTE
It seems to me like you expect the wizard to leave the book out for you.
So you've decided that the paranoid wizard is unrealistic. Why? Do you lock your front door at night? I do. If I could lock it more efficiently would I? Absolutely. Had someone try to break in twice in the past two years. The most expensive thing I own is my computer. A wizard's spell book is infinitely more precious than a computer.
Cheap protection falls under the "you get what you pay for", nevertheless it does exist - explosive runes, sepia snake sigil, etc.I'll ask again, for the umpteenth time. Aside from making a dozen expensive backup copies, which in no means is protecting your spellbook, what are these wards you speak of? As you say, explosive runes and sepia snake sigil, among others, are cheap but rather ineffective.
What are the effective and expensive wards? I've been asking this for days now and no one can answer me.
More straw men. I said NOTHING about a low level wizard making a DOZEN backup spell books. A low level wizard can probably get by with one or two backup spell books depending on the campaign.
As for effective and expensive wards, I already mentioned one - instant summons.
You are arguing in circles and expose your utter ignorance.
You say there are ways to ward the spellbook. When pressed for ways you say make more spellbooks, which is a dodge. When pressed more you say there are cheap wards but you get what you pay for. I'm asking for what you can do before level 11 to reasonably protect your spellbook, since what everyone else's reasonable answers are, i.e. sleeping in a rope trick, is unacceptable to you.There's nothing before level 11 that "wards" your spellbook from being stolen, and at that level instant summons is easily circumvented. Therefore, something like Rope Trick is not only inexpensive, but effective and completely reasonable.
In the end, you just want an excuse to DM fiat your players' spellbooks away.
I think he'll carry his bedroll up there. Dude seriously. Although I guess if he really wanted a full bed he could levitate it up there.
It takes two hours for him to learn how to cast the spell for the first time, when he puts it in his spell book. The rope is reusable.
Good point he might be sleeping in an inn. Although I'll bet he'll put an alarm on the door just in case knowing that the inn keeper has a key and he's going to sleep anyway and he's got the spare spell to burn.
Who said he would be. The wizard class has several different spells designed solely for the wizard's protection while he is not aware of his surroundings i.e. sleeping. Why on earth wouldn't he use them? Most groups keep watch at night, the wizard doesn't necessarily have to worry about that all the time. But then he is blowing spells for it so who cares.
Sepia snake sigil is a fine spell. If you use explosive runes on your SPELL BOOK you're a frigging lunatic. What kind of deranged logic is that? Ah ahah you may have stolen my primary source of power, but I blew up it after you got back to your lair and now I'll never be able to retrieve it?
Ward's for spellbooks?
Here's a few low-level ones:
Alarm (wards against unauthorized access)
Arcane Lock (wards against unauthorized access)
Arcane Mark (wards book from getting lost by identifying it as yours)
Book Ward (wards against acid, fire, and water)
Continual Flame (Wards against darkness)
Explosive Runes (wards against unauthorized access)
Grease (wards against grasping)
Illusory Script (wards against reading)
Invisibility (wards against sight)
Misdirection (wards against divination)
Nondetection (wards against divination and scrying)
Obscure Object (wards against scrying)
Phantom Trap (wards against curious passerby)
Prestidigitation (wards against dirt)
Secret Page (wards against reading)
Sepia Snake Sigil (wards against unauthorized access)
Shrink Item (makes it easier to conceal)
Symbol of [Anything] (wards against unauthorized access)
And that's just 3rd-level and lower on the wizard's list.
Ward's for spellbooks?
Here's a few low-level ones:
Alarm (wards against unauthorized access)
Arcane Lock (wards against unauthorized access)
Arcane Mark (wards book from getting lost by identifying it as yours)
Book Ward (wards against acid, fire, and water)
Continual Flame (Wards against darkness)
Explosive Runes (wards against unauthorized access)
Grease (wards against grasping)
Illusory Script (wards against reading)
Invisibility (wards against sight)
Misdirection (wards against divination)
Nondetection (wards against divination and scrying)
Obscure Object (wards against scrying)
Phantom Trap (wards against curious passerby)
Prestidigitation (wards against dirt)
Secret Page (wards against reading)
Sepia Snake Sigil (wards against unauthorized access)
Shrink Item (makes it easier to conceal)
Symbol of [Anything] (wards against unauthorized access)And that's just 3rd-level and lower on the wizard's list.
Wow, RD, that is remarkably similar to my list.
Now we'll see how meat can twist the definition around each of those.
Meat, ball's in your court dude! I'm rootin' for ya!