|
Long story short a new player came to join our existing group. He rolled a druid couple of days earlier but once sat at the table he came up with a summoner and this thing called a eidolon. Since he's a level 4 summoner his "pet" has 7 EP at his disposal.
Base form (biped)
S 17 (16 base)
D 13 (12 base)
C 13
i 7
W 10
CH 11
HD = 3D10+3
HP = not over 33 right? the guy told us 41??
BaB +3
CmB +6
CMD 17
AC 15 (10 base + 2 natural + 1 dex + 2 armor (table 2-9)) the guy said 16??
Saves F(+4) R(+2) W (+3)
# of attack (4)
2X claws (1D6+3)*
1X gore (1D6+3)**
1X bite (1D6+3)*** + TRIP****
It as 2 feats: power attack + 1 other i dont remember
12 skill points (4/HD) with max rank = 3 right?
EVOLUTIONS
*Improve damage evolution on claws (1 EP)
** gore evolution (2 EP)
*** Bite evolution (1 EP)
**** trip evolution on bite (2 EP)
Reach evolution on bite attack (1 EP)
question #1
Since all 4 attack listed are primary the eidolon can make these 4 attack per round as full round action at full BaB right?
Question #2
Initiating a trip without improve trip, even as free, still triger an attack of opportunity from the defender right?
I don't have the caracter sheet on me so i'm just trying to come up with the same built from scratch from what i understand of the rules. What i have here sounds weaker from what the guy had at the table.
All i can say is that that eidolon alone make all the encounters i had planned for that session look like the Harlem globe trotters meets the special olympic basketball team!
The game climax was ruinned and im not even mentionning how both the barbarian and the monk felt as useless as torch holders!
Help me "digesting" that thing called a eidolon!
|
The Eidolon is certainly overpowered if built with any sort of proficiency.
Everything about this sounds legit except the hit points. Since the eidolon can use the summoner's HP to negate damage, I suspect the 41 HP came from adding the eidolon and summoner's HP pool together.
Yes, four attacks at full BaB.
No, the free trip attempt from the Trip ability does not provoke.
I suggest you either talk to your summoner about nerfing himself or get used to building encounters specifically to hinder the eidolon without hurting the other melee so they can get a chance to shine.
|
Trip won't work on anything larger than the eidolon. If your summoner knows enlarge person he can trip up to large size category when buffed.
It's good to know his weak points so you know where to challenge him.
His eidolon has poor reflex saves and a low-ish dex. The summoner probably stays within close range to enable buffing. A well placed reflex save area-of-effect will catch them both draining the hps of the eidolon and the back up battery of the summoner.
An opponent with DR 5 should slow him down quite a bit while allowing a 2 handed weapon wielder like your barbarian to shine.
|
The "life link" schtick (sharing hit points) only works when the eidolon takes enough damage to send it back to its home plane, aka reduced to zero hp. You do NOT simply add the summoner and the eidolon's hit points together.
The 41 hit points definitely sounds wonky. Find out if the eidolon is buffed (bear's endurance or false life for example) and if so, exactly what buffs and when the summoner is casting them.
Yes, he gets a lot of attacks. No, he does not provoke on the trip attack. That said, I'm not sure what is so overpowered about a +6 CMB (you called it an "auto-trip" in the other thread...).
Also, that 15 or 16 AC at 4th level is actually kind of sad at 4th level, so the eidolon should probably be "getting" as good as it "gives" in melee.
Just a few observations. But definitely go over the player's build. He may have made some mistakes or is trying to pull a fast one on you.
Also, be patient... people who know far more about summoners and are much better prepared to explain them will be along shortly, I'm sure.
Yep, that looks much more reasonable.
HP: Yep, maximum 33 on the eidelon. Remember though, Eidelon's don't get max HP at 1st level, they themselves are not taking PC class levels, so they roll for hp. That means the eidelon should have about 3*(3+5.5) or 26 hps.
Attacks : Yes, on a full attack, he get's four attacks plus a trip attack (only if he hits with his bite). If you want a comparison to a core class for this, try the Druid with a lion animal companion. The lion has three attacks + a rake if the two claws hit. The bite is 1d6, and the claws 1d4 (same as the eidelon). To simulate the improved claws, you'd buy the animal companion Improved Natural Attack on his claws. The lion at level 3 would have full BAB as well on all his attacks. A small cat would have bite + 2 claws and trip.
Trip : Remember, the trip can only be invoked if the bite hits, that's why it doesn't provoke AoO.
Weaknesses : Low AC, the Eidelon as presented is a glass cannon, he's easy to hit, especially at range. A group of 3-4 goblins with bows can take him down fast, even with the Summoner providing him with a reserve of HP. I'd guess the other feat the guy gave him was Dodge, to get a +1 to AC. His touch AC is even worse, so enemy spellcasters are going to be using RTA's on him and taking him down even faster. This is the primary weakness of a pet, be it a druid or a summoner pet.
EDIT: If the eidelon took Toughness for a feat instead of Dodge, then that would give him an additional 3hp, making his maximum 36, but even there it's not 41.
The "life link" schtick (sharing hit points) only works when the eidolon takes enough damage to send it back to its home plane, aka reduced to zero hp. You do NOT simply add the summoner and the eidolon's hit points together.
It's actually even a little worse than that -- it dies (and gets forced back to its home plane) when anyone else does, at negative HP equal to its CON score. If the eidolon is hit hard enough to drop it to, say, -5 HP the eidolon is unconscious and the summoner can't do anything (via life link) to stop it.
one of the few things about the summoner is that the eidolon in itself is pretty strong in the early levels, around lvl 6-8 most fighters can outdamage it and will beat it in a fair fight. (assuming we avoid the cheeze with normal weapons not being restricted). Its the nature of natural weapons. Still yes the eidolon is very good.
One of the few things that could have went wrong, is if your other players make sub par choices at feats and so, then the eidolon will outshine everything at those levels.
It's actually even a little worse than that -- it dies (and gets forced back to its home plane) when anyone else does, at negative HP equal to its CON score. If the eidolon is hit hard enough to drop it to, say, -5 HP the eidolon is unconscious and the summoner can't do anything (via life link) to stop it.The "life link" schtick (sharing hit points) only works when the eidolon takes enough damage to send it back to its home plane, aka reduced to zero hp. You do NOT simply add the summoner and the eidolon's hit points together.
Huh,
You learn something new every day. Was that a change from the beta I missed?
\Huh,
You learn something new every day. Was that a change from the beta I missed?
I'm not sure -- I hadn't looked at the beta Summoner.
The relevant bits if you're curious:
Eidolons are treated as summoned creatures, except that they are not sent back to their home plane until reduced to a number of negative hit points equal to or greater than their Constitution score.
and then the bit from life link:
Whenever the eidolon takes enough damage to send it back to its home plane, the summoner can, as a free action, sacrifice any number of hit points. Each hit point sacrificed in this way prevents 1 point of damage done to the eidolon. This can prevent the eidolon from being sent back to its home plane.
\Huh,
You learn something new every day. Was that a change from the beta I missed?I'm not sure -- I hadn't looked at the beta Summoner.
The relevant bits if you're curious:
Yep, went and reread the book before I posted. Just goes to show the class is even less 'broken' than people are posting about (no insult intended to the OP).
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
\Huh,
You learn something new every day. Was that a change from the beta I missed?I'm not sure -- I hadn't looked at the beta Summoner.
The relevant bits if you're curious:
Eidolons are treated as summoned creatures, except that they are not sent back to their home plane until reduced to a number of negative hit points equal to or greater than their Constitution score.
and then the bit from life link:
Whenever the eidolon takes enough damage to send it back to its home plane, the summoner can, as a free action, sacrifice any number of hit points. Each hit point sacrificed in this way prevents 1 point of damage done to the eidolon. This can prevent the eidolon from being sent back to its home plane.
Interesting, so (as I understand it, I'll admit I'm weak on summoners) the Eildon could be dropped to negative 1, where it's unconscious, but the summoner can't pump hit points into it until it hits (to use the example above) -13?
|
Like Animal Companions, Eidolon's don't get any special rules for hit points, so they take half, just like a critter from the Bestiary.
3d10+3 would equal 19 hit points, +3 if he has the Toughness feat.
AC is definitely 15, unless he took the Improved Natural Armor evolution, in which case it would be 17. 16 isn't really an option.
It's hit points and AC put it within a point of CR 2, which means that any CR 4 encounter (expected to have 40 hit points, AC 17 and a primary attack for +8 that does ~16 damage and low attacks for +6 that do ~12 damage) should utterly shred the thing.
It does front-load some nice damage, which AC can help with, as can some sort of defensive abilities that discourage hand to hand attacks, such as oozes that inflict acid damage to anyone striking them in hand to hand or howler quills to punish non-weapon attacks (or, heaven forfend, trying to bite them), and the Eidolon only has Reach on it's bite attack, which means that a foe with Reach (Ogre, dude with longspear, etc.) will be able to make an attack of opportunity on it before it can close for a full attack.
Note that anything you do to punish the critter from getting those close range full attacks or striking with claw/gore/bite routines may also penalize your monk, and perhaps your other melee types, depending on their weapons, so you don't want to go too crazy with these sorts of options.
Once the Eidolon is dead, you don't have to worry about it for the rest of the day, and Life Link is almost useless as written, in my experience (and posts upthread get into that).
Note also that unconsciousness, even momentary, such as from a sleep spell or color spray, causes the Eidolon to un-summon, and it will be a minute out of combat before the Summoner can call it back to his side. Judicious use of sleep or color spray spells, or higher level alternatives, once the Summoner is over 4 HD, are like an Eidolon off-switch. Unlike a Druid, whose companion will continue shredding faces after the Druid is unconscious (or even dead), the Eidolon is also utterly dependent upon the Summoner to remain on this plane, so that an attack on what may eventually be a lesser-armored and less hardy Summoner could take out two foes for the price of one full attack sequence.
It's a glass cannon, with plentiful ways to kill it, but it does inflict quite a bit of damage, if it can get in there for a full attack without being wiped out by an attack of opportunity or readied action before it can unleash it's payload. Against more than one foe, in a CR-appropriate encounter, it might unleash it's 'alpha strike' only to draw the attention of the encounter and get messily butchered on the monster's next action, which, if it seems to be a powerful attacker, from it's initial damage offering, would be an entirely reasonable reaction from an ogre or similar threat.
You can also deal with it through the various 'spoiler' techniques used to deny pouncing animal companions their brutal full attack routines, such as caltrops or rough terrain coupled with five foot steps back from foes unhindered by such things (such as skeletons, in the case of caltrops), tanglefoot bags (requiring actions to break free), etc.
Finally, an important option. The dude said he was bringing a Druid to the table, and then sprung the Summoner on you. Total bait and switch. Tell him that you aren't prepared to use APG classes, and to get that Druid back out.
Interesting, so (as I understand it, I'll admit I'm weak on summoners) the Eildon could be dropped to negative 1, where it's unconscious, but the summoner can't pump hit points into it until it hits (to use the example above) -13?
Worse than that, he can only pump in HP to keep it at -13. Basically, to keep it from unsommoning. Quite a useless feature honestly.
Looks about right but this edilon shouldn't hit much except mooks. It's +6 to hit where as 4th level Melee types should be are +10 to hit or better to hit (+4 BAB, +4 Str, +1 WF, +1 Magic). Then add on class abilities Rage for the Barbarian or Favored Enemy for the ranger. Then apply buffs.
At this point the Edilon isn't that big of threat for anyone with decent AC and if you consider that regular fighter with out any magic can have an AC of 25 fairly easily at 4th level using the heroic array. (FP +9, LG SH +2, SF +1, Dodge +1, Dex +2). So you need 19 to hit off the start so add haste and bulls str to make the 16 or better. Compare that to a Barbarian with +1 Great sword raging who needs 11 or better.
Compare the damage over two rounds whe.re the Barbarian hits once (50% chance 2 attacks) and the Edilon hits twice (25% chance and 8 attacks)
Barbarian. Great Sword +14 (2D6+16) Total average=23
Edilon +9 (1D6 +5) X 2 Total average=16 (could be 18 damage with PA but risking losing an attack for 10 damage if that happens)
My numbers could be off and I'm doing this from memory.
Interesting, so (as I understand it, I'll admit I'm weak on summoners) the Eildon could be dropped to negative 1, where it's unconscious, but the summoner can't pump hit points into it until it hits (to use the example above) -13?Worse than that, he can only pump in HP to keep it at -13. Basically, to keep it from unsommoning. Quite a useless feature honestly.
edited: NVM the eidolon is specific in that it goes to neg con rather than bouncing at 0 yea really really only useful if you have enough juice to heal it to over 0 in one round.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Interesting, so (as I understand it, I'll admit I'm weak on summoners) the Eildon could be dropped to negative 1, where it's unconscious, but the summoner can't pump hit points into it until it hits (to use the example above) -13?Worse than that, he can only pump in HP to keep it at -13. Basically, to keep it from unsommoning. Quite a useless feature honestly.
I suspect that it was originally written that the Eidolon vanished at zero hit points, and the Life Link would allow the Summoner to stop that from happening, by adding some hit points to keep it from dropping below zero.
Then someone 'improved' the Eidolon by having it not vanish until negative Con hit points, not realizing that this change made Life Link utter balls, since adding hit points to an Eidolon already at negative 13ish just means that it's likely to remain unconscious, particularly at the lower levels (like when you get Life Link, at level ONE), since your Summoner won't have 14+ hit points lying around (unless he's a 1st level Summoner with three racial HD worth of Ogre...).
I complained about it during Beta, but it got overlooked in all the hand-wringing about how OP the Summoner / Eidolon were. It got nerfs aplenty (some deserved), but the stuff that was actually not working went right into print.
I'd love to just cross that Life Link entry out. The 'power' is junk, and the 100 ft. range drawback really limits creativity, IMO, in Summoner design, as the Eidolon is pretty much shackled to the side of the Summoner, making it difficult to regard as anything more complicated than an attack pokemon.
|
|
... A well placed reflex save area-of-effect will catch them both draining the hps of the eidolon and the back up battery of the summoner.
You see even if your idea is good and legit that's what i would try to avoid at all cost! That's where my whole concern about the eidolon issue rest!
For an APL 5 i fear that i would have to stick to CR 6 or even 7 to cope with the eidolon alone.
On one side i want to react and getting things back on track but on the other i don't want to do it at the expense of the summoner player. If i always end up "throwing all i got" at the summoner's face each time he call his pet it's gonna have 3 bad side effect:
#1 The summoner will have enough sooner or later and will quit.
#2 The rest of party will feel more like the eidolon's "followers" instead of behing the center of attention.
#3 If i always throw CR 2-3 above the group APL sooner or later the with high rolls at the wrong time i could wipe a caracter or two very fast then the rest of the party would be in serious jeoperdy!
For those who came up with the idea that i was ranting about eidolon simply because it seems too strong you were ALL WRONG!
I don't give a damn about the eidolon in itself, i have bookshelves full of critters that could smash a eidolon with both hands tied in their back! All i'm caring about is ensuring a fair experience for the whole party members even the summoner player!
Simply banning the summoner class from my game would be a statement saying "look people i just suck as a DM and i don't have the skills to cope with it!"
Always throwing "all i have" at the summoner once the eidolon is out would be ruinning both his fun and the other members fun as well, confirming that from now on no matter what they're doin my main focus will be on the summoner and his pet.
Always overpowering the encounter would innevitably end up with a total wipe. Even then the whole group would always be stretched thin on supply, HP, ressources et gear, always tryin to catch their breath after every fight!
I could go on like that for hours but you all got the point.
The thing is this: as someone else posted in a summoner thread recently, with the eidolon, the devil's in the details.
At first blush it seems really strong, but 99% of the time, if it seems too good you're missing something important in its rules -- there's something about what the player is doing that is (probably unintentionally) not legit.
You don't have to throw everything at it, honestly.
Example encounter. If you put them up against 4 4th level characters, have the enemy teams fighter hit the eidelon hard. That's not throwing everything at it, that's throwing one person at it. If that fighter has step-up, it's even better. Alternately, throw the enemy teams druid and AC at the eidelon and summoner, that's a straight one-to-one, and the fighter will take keep it busy (not being hit but hitting hard in return).
Have an enemy wizard either hit the thing with a save or suck spell (which is valid tactics), or have them summon a pack of wolves to take it on, yes, it'll probably mash the wolves, but it's taken out of the fight for one round.
Target the summoner with ranged attacks, or target the eidelon with ranged attacks. The enemies are going to be able to tell that's an eidelon (that glowing rune on the forehead), and they're going to know one of the people there is it's summoner, same as they know a giant cat fighting is probably a druid's companion.
Another option is the occasional ranger with a favored enemy of Outsider (which is the Eidelon).
It's not an issue of the eidelon being overpowered, anymore than a druid with a nasty AC is. It's just a question of adjusting tactics to account for it.
Interesting, so (as I understand it, I'll admit I'm weak on summoners) the Eildon could be dropped to negative 1, where it's unconscious, but the summoner can't pump hit points into it until it hits (to use the example above) -13?Worse than that, he can only pump in HP to keep it at -13. Basically, to keep it from unsommoning. Quite a useless feature honestly.
Well, it's not quite as useless as that, either.
When the eidolon is hit for enough damage to kill it, the summoner can buy off as much of that damage as he wants at 1 for 1.
So, for example, let's assume a 13 CON eidolon with 10 current hit points. It gets hit for 30 damage by an attack. If the summoner wants to sacrifice 30 of his own hit points, he can buy off all 30 points of that damage, preventing all of it to the eidolon -- he just doesn't get the option to trade HP via life link unless the hit would otherwise kill (unsummon, whatever) the eidolon.
Also don't forget that the summoner gets spells that can repair/cure the eidolon -- depending on what he's doing with it it might be very worth his while to keep the eidolon around and start curing it.
|
I may have missed this from reading both threads, but how many players are there in this group? That may also contribute to the problem. If it's 5+ players, then a CR 5 encounter should be easy for them.
Also some good suggestions have been given, if you give mobile and/or high AC opponents your other players will shine where this Eidolon/Summoner won't. The Eidolon loses close to 3/4 of it's attacking power by moving more than 5 feet, whereas your fighters, paladins, rangers, etc. lose maybe 30% at worst.
|
|
Vahaama you really shouldn't let a player design their animal companions, eidolons etc. without a DM present. Its fairly clear hes made at least two errors, particularily with that ridiculous HP.
If you don't want to reverse engineer it all yourself, post the exact stats up on here and helpful people will show you what the players done wrong.
One thing is clear even from the massive HP boost. Your not dealing with an Eidolon. Your dealing with Eidolon version 2.0 when the core rule version is 1.0.
|
|
Well, it's not quite as useless as that, either.
When the eidolon is hit for enough damage to kill it, the summoner can buy off as much of that damage as he wants at 1 for 1.
So, for example, let's assume a 13 CON eidolon with 10 current hit points. It gets hit for 30 damage by an attack. If the summoner wants to sacrifice 30 of his own hit points, he can buy off all 30 points of that damage, preventing all of it to the eidolon -- he just doesn't get the option to trade HP via life link unless the hit would otherwise kill (unsummon, whatever) the eidolon.
Also don't forget that the summoner gets spells that can repair/cure the eidolon -- depending on what he's doing with it it might be very worth his while to keep the eidolon around and start curing it.
So lets make it clear for me:
Unlike most normal monsters eidolons do not "die" once at 0 but instead at -(con score)?
Are they dying in the process or just acting like orcs on ferocity?
In your exemple the summoner could not just trade 29 hp to let his pet alive and kikcin at 1 hp?
To be honest that life link thing is confusing me!
btw guys. how does spells like color spray remove the eidolon? i was under the impression that the stunned condition didnt knock you unconscious, you dont lose spells that take a full round action to complete, so why would it remove the eidolon?
|
|
Summoners are the most OP class when people don't read/follow the rules, and an average class when the rules are followed. Do NOT DM a game without reviewing their character sheet and post here if you have questions.
Under almost no circumstances will a summoner be more valuable to the group than a druid, and an Eidolon is the worst dps vs a high AC npc AND has very poor HP compared to any other class.
The power of a summoner is in casting Enlarge Person on a Barbarian/Fighter in addition to his above average average dps-class-dps, making the 'contributory total dps' high. The cost is SEVERE defensive weakness as the summoner falls further and further behind from not wearing almost any magic items (they go to the Eidolon's shared slot)
|
|
So lets make it clear for me:
Unlike most normal monsters eidolons do not "die" once at 0 but instead at -(con score)?
Are they dying in the process or just acting like orcs on ferocity?
In your exemple the summoner could not just trade 29 hp to let his pet alive and kikcin at 1 hp?To be honest that life link thing is confusing me!
Well, anything not-summoned and living dies at negative con. However between (but not including) 0 and negative con a creature is dying. The eidolon works just like this, so at -1 HP would fall down on the floor bleeding like any other player character (or monster) and be forced to make stabilization checks until dead, healed, or stablilized.
The difference is that all other summoned monsters disappear at 0 HP. The Eidolong just specifically changes it to work like a normal living creature.
In the example that was given, yes the Summoner could give 30 HP of his own to keep his eidolon alive and still at 10 HP (or trade 21 HP to keep it alive at 1 HP). However then both the summoner and eidolon would be very close to death. A dragon sneezing might kill them both at that point.
AC is definitely 15, unless he took the Improved Natural Armor evolution, in which case it would be 17. 16 isn't really an option.
Might be Imroved Natural Armor feat which gives +1, but, honestly, is not really worth taking in such circumstances.
btw guys. how does spells like color spray remove the eidolon? i was under the impression that the stunned condition didnt knock you unconscious, you dont lose spells that take a full round action to complete, so why would it remove the eidolon?
Against targets with 2 or less HD color spray causes unconsciousness. color spray
gotcha
Interesting, so (as I understand it, I'll admit I'm weak on summoners) the Eildon could be dropped to negative 1, where it's unconscious, but the summoner can't pump hit points into it until it hits (to use the example above) -13?Worse than that, he can only pump in HP to keep it at -13. Basically, to keep it from unsommoning. Quite a useless feature honestly.
I misread that one too. I always thought it kept them at a minimum of 1 hp before. Now I know. :)
I misread that one too. I always thought it kept them at a minimum of 1 hp before. Now I know. :)
Interesting, so (as I understand it, I'll admit I'm weak on summoners) the Eildon could be dropped to negative 1, where it's unconscious, but the summoner can't pump hit points into it until it hits (to use the example above) -13?Worse than that, he can only pump in HP to keep it at -13. Basically, to keep it from unsommoning. Quite a useless feature honestly.
And knowing is half the battle! YO SUMMONER! Or something like that. ;)
If an eidolon is not dismissed when it is unconscious due to negative hp, why would it vanish when made unconscious by colour spray or sleep?
It doesn't.
However, if you hit the summoner with either spell, the eidelon vanishes if he doesn't save. The eidelon can be at full health and chewing threw an army of goblins, but will vanish if the goblin shaman hits the summoner with either spell and succeeds at affecting him.
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
And knowing is half the battle! YO SUMMONER! Or something like that. ;)I misread that one too. I always thought it kept them at a minimum of 1 hp before. Now I know. :)
Interesting, so (as I understand it, I'll admit I'm weak on summoners) the Eildon could be dropped to negative 1, where it's unconscious, but the summoner can't pump hit points into it until it hits (to use the example above) -13?Worse than that, he can only pump in HP to keep it at -13. Basically, to keep it from unsommoning. Quite a useless feature honestly.
OT: Anyone seen the COBRA cares adds on the Hub? I found it a nice touch that they end the 'comercial' with that line.
|
|
If an eidolon is not dismissed when it is unconscious due to negative hp, why would it vanish when made unconscious by colour spray or sleep?It doesn't.
However, if you hit the summoner with either spell, the eidelon vanishes if he doesn't save. The eidelon can be at full health and chewing threw an army of goblins, but will vanish if the goblin shaman hits the summoner with either spell and succeeds at affecting him.
Ah! Thanks!
For an APL 5 i fear that i would have to stick to CR 6 or even 7 to cope with the eidolon alone.
On one side i want to react and getting things back on track but on the other i don't want to do it at the expense of the summoner player. If i always end up "throwing all i got" at the summoner's face each time he call his pet it's gonna have 3 bad side effect:#1 The summoner will have enough sooner or later and will quit.
#2 The rest of party will feel more like the eidolon's "followers" instead of behing the center of attention.
#3 If i always throw CR 2-3 above the group APL sooner or later the with high rolls at the wrong time i could wipe a caracter or two very fast then the rest of the party would be in serious jeoperdy!For those who came up with the idea that i was ranting about eidolon simply because it seems too strong you were ALL WRONG!
I don't give a damn about the eidolon in itself, i have bookshelves full of critters that could smash a eidolon with both hands tied in their back! All i'm caring about is ensuring a fair experience for the whole party members even the summoner player!
If the APL is 5 the throwing 3 CR 2 monsters will be a typical fight, and yes it will be easy but APL fights normally are. If you try to use one CR 5 monster the fight is actually easier for the players because they have 4 or more turns to the monster's one. Action of economy always favors the players.
When you make a boss fight(or higher CR fight) don't use one super creature. Use one monster tough enough to be a decent challenge, and give him mooks for backup
Let's say your party is APL(average party level) 5, and the first boss is a CR 8. With the eidolon and barbarian bearing down on his he might not last too long
Let him be a CR 7, and give him 2 CR 3 mooks.
PS:All caps online is seen as yelling. We are saying the eidolon is generally not too strong. We can not account for individual play experiences.
PS2: You can post the barbarian also to see why he is not doing more damage.
So lets make it clear for me:
Unlike most normal monsters eidolons do not "die" once at 0 but instead at -(con score)?
Mostly correct; almost everything in the game dies at -CON, but normal summoned monsters go at 0. So basically an eidolon is treated like most things even though it's sort of a summoned monster.
Are they dying in the process or just acting like orcs on ferocity?
If the eidolon's below 0, generally it's unconscious and dying unless something else (diehard feat or whatever) is overriding that.
In your exemple the summoner could not just trade 29 hp to let his pet alive and kikcin at 1 hp?
My example: Eidolon's at 10, dies at -13, takes 30 damage.
This is a hit that would kill it (10 - 30 = -20, which is lower than the eidolon's -CON of -13), so the summoner can now choose to sacrifice any number of hit points to prevent that much damage to the eidolon.
So the eidolon's at 10, takes 30 damage, if the summoner sacrifices 29 hp the eidolon would now be at 9.
If the summoner sacrifices 21 hp instead, the eidolon's at 1 hp and alive.
If 20 hp instead, the eidolon's at 0 and staggered.
15 hp instead, the eidolon's at -5 and unconscious/dying.
Essentially: life link's ability to buy off damage only comes into play at the instant that the eidolon takes a hit that would otherwise kill it. The summoner can buy off as much of that hit as he wants at a 1 for 1 with his own hit points. If the eidolon's hit with damage that wouldn't kill it (even if that damage would drop it to dying), life link can't be used.
So for example if the eidolon is at 10 HP and it takes 20 damage, which would reduce it to -10 (unconscious/dying, but not dead), life link can't be used against any of that damage.
Does that clear it up?
|
|
So lets make it clear for me:
Unlike most normal monsters eidolons do not "die" once at 0 but instead at -(con score)?
Mostly correct; almost everything in the game dies at -CON, but normal summoned monsters go at 0. So basically an eidolon is treated like most things even though it's sort of a summoned monster.
Are they dying in the process or just acting like orcs on ferocity?
If the eidolon's below 0, generally it's unconscious and dying unless something else (diehard feat or whatever) is overriding that.
In your exemple the summoner could not just trade 29 hp to let his pet alive and kikcin at 1 hp?
My example: Eidolon's at 10, dies at -13, takes 30 damage.
This is a hit that would kill it (10 - 30 = -20, which is lower than the eidolon's -CON of -13), so the summoner can now choose to sacrifice any number of hit points to prevent that much damage to the eidolon.
So the eidolon's at 10, takes 30 damage, if the summoner sacrifices 29 hp the eidolon would now be at 9.
If the summoner sacrifices 21 hp instead, the eidolon's at 1 hp and alive.
If 20 hp instead, the eidolon's at 0 and staggered.
15 hp instead, the eidolon's at -5 and unconscious/dying.
Essentially: life link's ability to buy off damage only comes into play at the instant that the eidolon takes a hit that would otherwise kill it. The summoner can buy off as much of that hit as he wants at a 1 for 1 with his own hit points. If the eidolon's hit with damage that wouldn't kill it (even if that damage would drop it to dying), life link can't be used.
So for example if the eidolon is at 10 HP and it takes 20 damage, which would reduce it to -10 (unconscious/dying, but not dead), life link can't be used against any of that damage.
Does that clear it up?
Pretty much thank you!
I made Life Link and Life Bond more useful by getting Diehard for both my summoner and eidolon. Sure, that's a lot of feats, but it certainly makes it much much harder for enemies to get rid of them. The summoner won't go unconsious at negative hp (so the Eidolon won't become dismissed even while using Life Bond to keep the summoner alive), and the Eidolon can continue fighting even while in the negatives while the summoner is feeding him hp through Life Link. Plus, by raw, an eidolon can use pounce even while he's staggered from using diehard.
Thanks for pointing out that detail about Life Link, I wasn't aware that you can completely negate an attack with it.
|
|
If the eidolon is outshining the barbarian so badly my suspicion is that you have at least one player who is an optimizer who is also playing fast and loose with the rules (the hp thing) and other players who are not (the barbarian).
I ran into a L9 barbarian the other day who was doing +17/+12 for 2d4+24, critting on 15-20, being granted a first strike AoO on the first opponent to close with her each fight and so on. That is before a single buff gets laid down- like haste, enlarge person, etc. I really don't think the eidolon can outshine that when a player knows how to crunch some numbers.
If the eidolon is outshining the barbarian so badly my suspicion is that you have at least one player who is an optimizer who is also playing fast and loose with the rules (the hp thing) and other players who are not (the barbarian).
This more then anything else may be your issue. The HP thing is way, way off he gains 16 + con mod. I am not seeing how he can have 41.
I really would like to see the barbarian.
At 4th level, with a WBL of 6k, you are looking at only 1 single stat boosting item (4k). Since there's better options for buffing (Spells), I'm going to assume this wasn't spent on the Eidolon.
The Stats for the Biped would have 17 Str, and 13 Con. With d10s for hitpoints, we are looking at (even if he rolled instead of averaged) a max of 33 hitpoints.
Now at 4th level, the Summoner can cast a max of 2x 2nd level spells. Lets say he goes with Bear's Endurance and Bull's Strength (note, that's ALL his 2nd level spells for the day, and the ONLY 2nd level spells he knows, short of favored class potential options).
With Enlarge Person being used (if you decide to allow it), here's his final scores:
Str 23
Dex 11
Con 17
Hitpoints would be 39 (if you break the rules), or more normally 25 (avg hp).
AC would be 13 (since Dex is shot, and Large has penalties to AC).
Primary Attacks would be made at +8 (even with all the Strength).
With a +8 damage bonus from strength (remember, 1.5x only happens if the creature has only a single natural attack), so a damage range of 9-15 (avg 11.5).
This means the Eidolon will have an average chance of 55% to hit with each attack against a CR 4 creature. He's really only getting about 2 hits a round against level appropriate content.
This means he's doing only about 20 or so damage in a full attack round... while sitting there with 25 hitpoints and 13 AC against whatever nasty thing he's facing.
Also note, this is for 4 minutes per day. After that, his hitpoints and attack/damage all go down a bunch (so +5 to attack and avg of 8.5 damage per hit). Have more than one combat per day and the Eidolon isn't going to be the star at all.
.
By contrast, a Barbarian will likely have a 22 Strength as well while raging, and likely attacking with +12 to hit and 19 damage (or +10 to hit with 25 damage if power attacking).
And while his rages are lasting in rounds, he can save them for later fights if he wants, meaning he can likely pull this off for more than one combat.
This is with a meatier average hitpoints of ~45 (assuming only a 14 starting Con before raging), with potential for higher with good rolls; and an AC that can be in the range of 17 or 18 (even while raging).
The Barbarian should be good at staying in combat longer, unafraid to deal damage.
Give the Barbarian a 50gp potion of Enlarge Person (or the party caster just puts it on him instead), and you just make this even scarier.
.
The ONLY thing going for the Eidolon is the potential of # of attacks. And this novelty goes away quickly after you get into the 6th+ levels. Vital Strike with a 1d12 or 2d6 weapon makes multi-weapon attackers cry. Especially if combat involves more movement than chess.
|
|
The Stats for the Biped would have 17 Str, and 13 Con. With d10s for hitpoints, we are looking at (even if he rolled instead of averaged) a max of 33 hitpoints.
The summoner has augment summoning.. +4 con for a 3HD = +6 hp right?
Also note, this is for 4 minutes per day. After that, his hitpoints and attack/damage all go down a bunch (so +5 to attack and avg of 8.5 damage per hit). Have more than one combat per day and the Eidolon isn't going to be the star at all.
The summoner was dismissing his pet after each combat and then summoning him whenever fight broke.... so it's practicly never ending!
The summoner was dismissing his pet after each combat and then summoning him whenever fight broke.... so it's practicly never ending!
For what it's worth, it takes a minute (not a round) to summon the Eidolon back from its plane, which isn't exactly combat friendly.
Unless you're burning a spell to do it.
The Stats for the Biped would have 17 Str, and 13 Con. With d10s for hitpoints, we are looking at (even if he rolled instead of averaged) a max of 33 hitpoints.
The summoner has augment summoning.. +4 con for a 3HD = +6 hp right?
The summoner was dismissing his pet after each combat and then summoning him whenever fight broke.... so it's practicly never ending!
Also note, this is for 4 minutes per day. After that, his hitpoints and attack/damage all go down a bunch (so +5 to attack and avg of 8.5 damage per hit). Have more than one combat per day and the Eidolon isn't going to be the star at all.
1) Augment summoning doesn't work on the Eidelon. The only time it does is if you use the summoning spell to summon it. If you're allowing it to work on the eidelon after being summoned by ritual, then you are using house rules that make the eidelon much tougher.
2) When the eidelon is dismissed, either the spells fail (he's no longer on the material plane), or, the spells travel with the eidelon to his home plane (where they die after their duration expires).
Here is a link to the summoner class, on the d20pfsrd. Its reprinted there because the summor and all the other APG classes are open content. Sounds like your player may have been up to some shenanigans (or perhaps unintentionally misread the class in a beneficial way).