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Clerics should only be able to cast level 7 spells. That's how it was back in 2E, and goddammit, I don't care what anybody thinks of that because I am right all the time and cannot be wrong and I know exactly how to balance this game because other people can't do it so I have do it because they suck and these forums suck and suck and suck and suck and suck.
It's great to make no sense and blame others. I wish I can do it in every thread.
:)
i haven't seen anyone mention dispel magic or banishment.
if an eidolon goes more than a mile from thier summoner, thier remaining hit points drop by half.
a large/huge eidolon has a harder time with human sized hallways and other tight spaces
an eidolon has only so many evolution points, and due to 1/24 hours self ressurecting aspect of them and the lack of proper evolution swapping methods. a summoner who makes suboptimal choices with thier eidolon is stuck with them for life.
too many people think of summoners like Ash Ketchum from pokemon.
here is an example i see far more appropriate (though a lot less commonly known)
The Valkyrie Sylmeria from the PS2 game valkyrie profile 2. she not only summoned Einherjar, an ability similar to the summon monster spell, she actualy fought alongside them, respected them, and tried her best to treat them as nicely as possible. she wore light armor and utilized martial weapons, mostly longswords. she was also a reflavored Aasimaar, which may be why she wielded a longsword.
The pack of wolves? You can only have one summon monster SLA up at a time.
Summon Monster Z can be used to summon one critter from the z list, 1d3 critters from the Z-1 list or 1d4+1 critters from the Z-2 list. This means that a summoner with access to Summon Monster IV can summon a "pack" of wolves, that is 2-5 of them.
Here is my "munchkin" 4th-level summoner and his eidolon :
SOLOM NED’RAZAK
Half-Elf Summoner 4 (+1 to Evolution Pool from favored class feature)
33 hp (8 + 3d8 + 12)
Abilities
Str 10
Dex 14
Con 16 (14 base, +2 from racial adjustment)
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 15 (14 base, +1 from 4th level)
Feats (2)
- Endurance
- Diehard
The summoner is almost naked. He gave all his wealth to his eidolon. He cast Invisibility on himself and hide during the fight against the fighter, letting his eidolon do all the dirty work. However, he use his Life Link class feature and his Diehard feat to help his eidolon.
____________________________________________________________
LORD DEIMOS
Biped Eidolon
19 hp (3d10 + 3) + Diehard + Life Link
(you need to bring the eidolon to –62 hp to kill it, also killing the summoner at the same time)
AC 20 (+6 natural armor, +1 Dex, +1 bracers, +1 ring, +1 amulet)
Saving throws: +4 Fort, +2 Ref (evasion), +3 Will
CMB +7
CMD 18
Attack
+8 melee with masterwork cold iron greatsword (2d6+6)
+4 ranged touch with alchemist fire (1d6 fire)
Abilities
Str 19 (16 base, +1 bonus, +2 ability increase evolution)
Dex 13 (12 base, +1 bonus)
Con 13
Int 7
Wis 10
Cha 11
Evolutions (evolution pool = 7+1 = 8)
- Weapon Training (2 + 2)
- Improved Natural Armor (1)
- Ability Increase +2 Str (2)
- Reach with weapon’s attack (1)
Feats (2)
- Endurance
- Diehard
Natural Armor Bonus
+2 from base form
+2 from level 4
+2 from Improved Natural Armor evolution
Equipment (5700 gp)
Bracer of Armor +1 (1000 gp)
Ring of Protection +1 (2000 gp)
Amulet of Natural Armor +1 (2000 gp)
Masterwork Cold Iron Greatsword (400 gp)
Alchemist’s Fire (20 gp) x 15
I have learned a lot about the eidolon while making this build. For example, I learned that the eidolon cannot wear armor of any kind (that would be game breaking otherwise). I have also learned that the Diehard feat can be used in a cheap way with Life Link to built a nearly unkillable eidolon. This eidolon can easily be defeated by a fighter with a fullplate +1, a heavy steel shield +1, 14 dex, dodge, shield focus and a ring of protection +1, because the eidolon wouldn’t be able to hit the fighter without a natural 20. The 15 alchemist’s fires is a munchkin’s trick that could be used to defeat the said fighter with ranged touch attack, but it’s not to be taken seriously. However, I wouldn’t like to play a raging barbarian wielding a greataxe (in other words; a character with a low AC) against such an immortal beast. :D
Conclusion : Using the standard WBL, the eidolon alone lacks the bonus to hit and the AC to compete with a fighter of the same level. To be honest, I never tought that the eidolon was a broken class feature. However, I think that the summoner's spells are way more scary than his eidolon. It's the summation of powerful spells + the eidolon that could make the summoner "overpowered" IMO. Maybe someone else could make a more serious build than this one, to challenge Midnightoker's mysterious fighter. :)
That's it, I'm going to bed now ! (;
an eidolon has only so many evolution points, and due to 1/24 hours self ressurecting aspect of them and the lack of proper evolution swapping methods. a summoner who makes suboptimal choices with thier eidolon is stuck with them for life.
I'm not 100% sure what this post means, but the only choice regarding the Eidolon you're stuck with for life is their base form. Any Evolution Points you spend can be reassigned every time the Summoner levels up, so you can have a radically different Eidolon from level to level if you want. Also, if waiting to level up isn't an option, Summoners can learn a spell at 4th-level called Transmogrify that does the same thing if you're willing to spend an hour casting it.
I apologize if you already knew this, but your post makes it sound like there's a way to permanently gimp your Eidolon, which isn't necessarily true.
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Maerimydra,
No offense but that's a pretty weak 4th level eidolon. Having the cowardly summoner ultimately throws away the biggest advantage of the class. (Hint action economy)
Here, without any munchkin tactics, just a solid practical build you will get more attacks per round, and a higher attack bonus (possibly much higher).
Base Form: Biped
Evolutions: Ability improvement (STR), Bite, Gore, Grab
Feats: Toughness, Weapon Focus (claws)
Long term buffs (typical): Mage Armor (hours)
Short term buffs (beginning of combat): enlarge person, shield
AC: 19 (+2 base, +2 levels, +2 barkskin, +4 mage armor) +23 with shield
Attacks (unbuffed): 2 claws +9 1d4+4, bite +8 1d6+4, gore +8 1d5+4
Attacks (buffed): 3 claws +10 1d6+5, bite +9 1d8+5, gore +9 1d6+5
Special attacks: Grab (CMB +13 to grapple buffed -can't grab medium when unbuffed)
Spend the gold on a Wand of Enlarge Person, a Wand of Shield, and a Cloak of Protection for the eidolon. I'm usually not a big fan of expendable items but the two wands items are both inexpensive and very effective.
The grab build is probably not the strongest around but it can be decent.
Ok last night for the first time (pretty much) in the last 20 years or so that i DM pen & paper i got got TOTALY off guard!
A new player was added to the last minute, long story short he went in with a level 4 summoner from the advanced player guide. At the moment levels are ranging from 4.5 to 6. NO ONE around the table had a single clue about that class. It sounds cool up until the first encounter!
From that point on that eidolon became the most powerfull character of the whole party.
4 attack all of 'em primary, 10' reach with a bite that almost auto trip! Over 40 HP, dmg dealt around 12-15 per hit! power attack.. name it it have it all!
Next to this the poor tiny barbarian was totaly OUTCLASSED with its meager 1 swing of greataxe.. not talking about the rest of the party that was totaly shocked! At the end of the session everybody was feeling like living a bad dream!Honestly so far i was more then delighted about pathfinder and the wonders that paizo are doin... but if peoples at paizo went to the conclusion that this is balanced i have only one question to ask:
You guyz are smoking crack right?
Interesting. I ran a game last night where the second level Barbarian dual-wielded and gnawed a bad guy to death. She hammered him one, battleaxed him in the face and bit him in the arse ... More or less. And all that resulted in a neat 35 damage, without power attack. Lucky rolls, I'll grant you, but never the less :)
I have great hopes for the Barbarian. Her summoner boyfriend looked kinda silly in comparison when his Eidolon did a meager 3d4+3 in the same round. Given, this is at level 2 and there are some crazy things one can do with the eidolons damage. Just remember that huge damage = weak AC and no resistances ;)
- The Surgeon
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Maerimydra,
No offense but that's a pretty weak 4th level eidolon. Having the cowardly summoner ultimately throws away the biggest advantage of the class. (Hint action economy)
Here, without any munchkin tactics, just a solid practical build you will get more attacks per round, and a higher attack bonus (possibly much higher).
Base Form: Biped
Evolutions: Ability improvement (STR), Bite, Gore, Grab
Feats: Toughness, Weapon Focus (claws)
Long term buffs (typical): Mage Armor (hours)
Short term buffs (beginning of combat): enlarge person, shield
AC: 19 (+2 base, +2 levels, +2 barkskin, +4 mage armor) +23 with shieldAttacks (unbuffed): 2 claws +9 1d4+4, bite +8 1d6+4, gore +8 1d5+4
Attacks (buffed): 3 claws +10 1d6+5, bite +9 1d8+5, gore +9 1d6+5
Special attacks: Grab (CMB +13 to grapple buffed -can't grab medium when unbuffed)Spend the gold on a Wand of Enlarge Person, a Wand of Shield, and a Cloak of Protection for the eidolon. I'm usually not a big fan of expendable items but the two wands items are both inexpensive and very effective.
The grab build is probably not the strongest around but it can be decent.
Enlarge Person is for humanoids: does a biped eidolon count as a humanoid?
Enlarge Person is for humanoids: does a biped eidolon count as a humanoid?
Enlarge person should not work on an eidolon. Eidolons are basically outsiders, except the rules I believe never explicitly mention them as such. (They might be Magical Beasts too).
But they are definitely not humanoid.
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Enlarge Person is for humanoids: does a biped eidolon count as a humanoid?Enlarge person should not work on an eidolon. Eidolons are basically outsiders, except the rules I believe never explicitly mention them as such. (They might be Magical Beasts too).
But they are definitely not humanoid.
And Ogre knows his stuff, just another example of how easy it is to give a new class treats that they're not entitled to.
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Actually Ogre is right as per the share spells ability
"The summoner may cast a spell with a target of “you” on his eidolon (as a spell with a range of touch) instead of on himself. A summoner may cast spells on his eidolon even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the eidolon’s type (outsider). Spells cast in this way must come from the summoner spell list." So as long as the spell is on the summoners spell list he can use a wand of it on his Eidlon.
And Ogre knows his stuff, just another example of how easy it is to give a new class treats that they're not entitled to.Enlarge Person is for humanoids: does a biped eidolon count as a humanoid?Enlarge person should not work on an eidolon. Eidolons are basically outsiders, except the rules I believe never explicitly mention them as such. (They might be Magical Beasts too).
But they are definitely not humanoid.
Wrong.
Share Spells (Ex): The summoner may cast a spell with a target of “you” on his eidolon (as a spell with a range of touch) instead of on himself. A summoner may cast spells on his eidolon even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the eidolon’s type (outsider). Spells cast in this way must come from the summoner spell list. This ability does not allow the eidolon to share abilities that are not spells, even if they function like spells.
This would apply to any "humanoid-only" spell such as Enlarge Person.
Edit: I wish this board told you if someone posted while you were writing a message.
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And Ogre knows his stuffEnlarge Person is for humanoids: does a biped eidolon count as a humanoid?Enlarge person should not work on an eidolon. Eidolons are basically outsiders, except the rules I believe never explicitly mention them as such. (They might be Magical Beasts too).
But they are definitely not humanoid.
I am definitely fallable but i am right In this case. Read the share spells section Kevin quoted above.
I am definitely fallable but i am right In this case. Read the share spells section Kevin quoted above.
Relevant section:
Share Spells (Ex): The summoner may cast a spell with a target of “you” on his eidolon (as a spell with a range of touch) instead of on himself. A summoner may cast spells on his eidolon even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the eidolon’s type (outsider). Spells cast in this way must come from the summoner spell list. This ability does not allow the eidolon to share abilities that are not spells, even if they function like spells.
Enlarge person's target is "one humanoid creature" not "you". It won't work on the eidolon via share spells. Spells such as shield, alter self and glide, however, would. Thus, the summoner could give his eidolon a +4 shield bonus to AC, but could not bump the eidolon's size via enlarge person.
This is a matter of interpretation Mark. Note the period. The statement comes after could easily be a stand alone item.
If it's a matter of interpretation, then both 0gre and I are right at the same time we contradict each other. :)
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I am definitely fallable but i am right In this case. Read the share spells section Kevin quoted above.Relevant section:
Share Spells (Ex): The summoner may cast a spell with a target of “you” on his eidolon (as a spell with a range of touch) instead of on himself. A summoner may cast spells on his eidolon even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the eidolon’s type (outsider). Spells cast in this way must come from the summoner spell list. This ability does not allow the eidolon to share abilities that are not spells, even if they function like spells.Enlarge person's target is "one humanoid creature" not "you". It won't work on the eidolon via share spells. Spells such as shield, alter self and glide, however, would. Thus, the summoner could give his eidolon a +4 shield bonus to AC, but could not bump the eidolon's size via enlarge person.
Im trying to figure out if you didnt read the whole thing or if you think the second sentence only applies to spells with a target of you. As far as I can tell the bit about not having to be the right type is not limited to spells with a target of you. Those are two separate ideas. First exception is for range, second exception is for type.
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This is a matter of interpretation Mark. Note the period. The statement comes after could easily be a stand alone item.If it's a matter of interpretation, then both 0gre and I are right at the same time we contradict each other. :)
Crosspost!
Flexibility is the beauty and curse of the english language.
Flexibility is the beauty and curse of the english language.
:)
Just imagine how much clearer the share spells paragraph would be thanks to a well-placed "also" in second sentence.
I think this one is definitely a question for the designers' intent. (Which I've always taken as persuasive authority, as opposed to binding precedent.)
I did forget about Share spells - the summoner in my campaign never used that particular ability prior to his death. That being said, I, too, read the entire ability as having a single, shared intent - that is, when it's talking about spells, it refers to "spells with a target of 'you'."
Though, incredibly unclear, yes.
I haven't been in a group with a Summoner, so I can't speak to how overpowered they may or may not be in play. But having read up on the class and seen some play test examples posted on the boards I think they are pretty on par with other classes.
....
I can chime in a little more effectively in this more recent debate about the Share Spell wording. I agree with Ogre and ithuriel that the description is addressing two separate points with the same ability.
Mechanic 1) Target of a spell. Any spell that would normally only target the caster can be cast to target the Eidolon.
Mechanic 2) The creature type. The Summoner can use spells on the Eidolon which normally would not target such a creature.
Both points fall under the same line of thought and under the same ability; they deal with the Summoner using spells to augment his Eidolon which normally would not be allowed. However the ability seems to be addressing two separate mechanics. It is not the only ability that is written this way. One other example is HiPS which addresses two points and two mechanics within a single ability. Many times it is read as a single mechanic but, IMO based on the way it is worded, it is addressing two separate mechanics:
Hide in Plain Sight (Su): A shadowdancer can use the Stealth skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of an area of dim light, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.
Mechanic 1) A shadowdancer can use the Stealth skill even while being observed. That is, any time the character has cover/concealment or otherwise qualifies to use Stealth, he may do so even if he is observed.
Mechanic 2) As long as she is within 10 feet of an area of dim light, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. Separately, if the character is within 10' of dim light he qualifies for Stealth without the need for cover/concealment or any other qualification. Which, also triggers the first mechanic of HiPS so he can hide even while observed.
They are two separate ideas within HiPS and deal with separate mechanics, but they go hand in hand with the overall theme and idea of the ability. Share Spell seems to be written exactly the same way, two mechanics the share a common theme:
Share Spells (Ex): The summoner may cast a spell with a target of “you” on his eidolon (as a spell with a range of touch) instead of on himself. A summoner may cast spells on his eidolon even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the eidolon’s type (outsider). Spells cast in this way must come from the summoner spell list. This ability does not allow the eidolon to share abilities that are not spells, even if they function like spells.
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I can say as a 4th level summoner in PFS I feel the most powerful.
1/2 elf str: 7 int: 12 wis: 12 dex: 14 con: 14 chr: 18
Skills if note: diplomacy, spellcraft, umd
Feats: spell focus: conjuration, sunmoner's bond
+1 cloak of protection, wand of clw, nets (from half-elf)
Spells of note: magic weapon, enlarge person, Mage armor, haste, lesser evolution surge
Eidilon - biped. Slam, bite(2), trip: bite, improved strength +2, reach(bite)
Typically try to summon back eidilon every 10 mins to keep str at 20.
AC: 15 (typically 17 or 19). Feats: endurance, diehard (take care of hp issue).
Attacks (+8) d6+7+trip, d4+5*2, d8+5
Nice and survivable. He tanks well, I try to net opponents when not hasting/enlarging him and party. Once enlarged his damage becomes obscene, and the diehard combo is sick. I have yet to have a fighter be as effective in damage dealing. Surge is there for weird situations (need to swim? Enlarged and want to grapple?).
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Summoners who cast enlarge on their eidolons instead of a fighter/barb are gimping the party dps. Eidolons have very low relative attack and will not benefit as much as a great axe specced melee. A level 1 Barb with raging and enlarge person, MW GreatAxe, Wpn Focuse Greataxe, Powerattack has: +9 attack, 3d6+15 damage. No Eidolon will come close to that as many of their attacks will miss.
While I agree Diehard is a nice feat for the eidolon. Don't forget he is staggered while at 0 or below HP.
Nice and survivable. He tanks well, I try to net opponents when not hasting/enlarging him and party. Once enlarged his damage becomes obscene, and the diehard combo is sick. I have yet to have a fighter be as effective in damage dealing. Surge is there for weird situations (need to swim? Enlarged and want to grapple?).
I don't think they were advocating it for the Eidelon, but for the Summoner. Otherwise, when the Summoner hit's 0 hp, the eidelon goes 'boom'. Which means this is a required feat to use at least one of the summoner's core class abilities (a last minute change that wasn't thought through IMHO).
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MDT was not rude. He was just offering counters to what you said. There are other posters who would not have been as nice when offering criticism. Myself and MDT don't often agree, but he is normally polite.
Agreed and seconded.
Posters who come here to respond and start threads need to understand that other posters will not always agree with them. Insulting a poster becuase he does not agree with you makes me not want to listen or care about what the insulting poster has to say. either in this thread or outside of it. If as a poster you are unable or unwilling to accept being questioned on any subject do not post in internet forums. To be blunt I am getting sick and tired of posters that expect to get their way in every discussion on every topic. In this forum and outside of it.
MDT was not rude. He was just offering counters to what you said. There are other posters who would not have been as nice when offering criticism. Myself and MDT don't often agree, but he is normally polite.
Agreed and seconded.
Posters who come here to respond and start threads need to understand that other posters will not always agree with them. Insulting a poster becuase he does not agree with you makes me not want to listen or care about what the insulting poster has to say. either in this thread or outside of it. If as a poster you are unable or unwilling to accept being questioned on any subject do not post in internet forums. To be blunt I am getting sick and tired of posters that expect to get their way in every discussion on every topic. In this forum and outside of it.
Well, to be fair, I did bold/italicize/capitalize 3 words in the response, but I wasn't really trying to be rude to him so much as draw attention to the issue, so other readers would pay attention to the paragraph. It's a common misconception and it keeps coming up over and over again.
For those of you hoping the OP would post the Eidolon build, s/he has done so: HERE.
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And clarification... the Eidilon can still act with Diehard if they are willing to take a point of damage correct? That's how the feat reads. Otherwise it hasn't happened yet, but with my aggressive nature I expect the Eidilon to go negative soon... certainly don't want to cheat. Will suck if it doesn't work as expected, mainly because those feats will be locked in for PFS.
And clarification... the Eidilon can still act with Diehard if they are willing to take a point of damage correct? That's how the feat reads. Otherwise it hasn't happened yet, but with my aggressive nature I expect the Eidilon to go negative soon... certainly don't want to cheat. Will suck if it doesn't work as expected, mainly because those feats will be locked in for PFS.
With the summoner share hp ability, the eidelon really doesn't need diehard, the summoner does. He can't continue to add hp to the eidelon when he's negative, but the eidelon will go poof if he loses consciousness, which is what you need to avoid.
Flexibility is the beauty and curse of the english language.
Thus rules sections of books should be written in e-prime. I do see the ambiguity of "you" in that section. and our group has opted for the most restrictive interpretation.
Although that rule made me decide that a summoner who wanted to have a large eidolon at some point should have alter self on their list of known spells. Ohh I guess I need to make him medium and he gets to get through the narrow corridors/caverns with only the difficulties of almost any other party member, Yes loosing 6 size mod to str(8 size for large lost, but gains 2 size for alter self) hurts but being unable to use him in a fight hurts more.
I wish OP had given us more details about his/her specific situation Was the eidolon having the reach evolution and using AoO's for movement incorrectly for example?
I removed a post that was excessively personal (and the replies to it.)
Flexibility is the beauty and curse of the english language.Thus rules sections of books should be written in e-prime. I do see the ambiguity of "you" in that section. and our group has opted for the most restrictive interpretation.
Although that rule made me decide that a summoner who wanted to have a large eidolon at some point should have alter self on their list of known spells. Ohh I guess I need to make him medium and he gets to get through the narrow corridors/caverns with only the difficulties of almost any other party member, Yes loosing 6 size mod to str(8 size for large lost, but gains 2 size for alter self) hurts but being unable to use him in a fight hurts more.
I wish OP had given us more details about his/her specific situation Was the eidolon having the reach evolution and using AoO's for movement incorrectly for example?
It's strictly a houserule, but I created an evolution to handle that for my games.
2-point evolution.
Mutability: The eidelon gains the ability to assume either small or medium form. Changing sizes takes one minute as the eidelon's form grows or shrinks. If the eidelon has the Large or Huge evolutions, they may adopt any size they are able to assume (A huge eidelon could shrink to large, then to medium, then to small). When changing sizes, the eidelon must pass through each size category (each transformation taking 1 minute). This provokes attacks of opportunity. For 2 additional evolution points, the eidelon may change it's size at the rate of 1 round per category. For 2 additional evolution points the eidelon may do so without provoking an attack of opportunity. These two options may be purchased separately. The summoner must be at least 5th level to select this evolution.
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The sunmoner's share life ability only works if the eidilon takes damage that would dismiss them; which in the base text happens when the eidilon is at negative hp. Also, diehard says you can continue to act, but doing so costs you a hp. So it is a necessary and potent combo; otherwise the Eidilon will fall in battle if he takes damage to take him below -con, but will otherwise fall and lifelink won't work.
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Summoners who cast enlarge on their eidolons instead of a fighter/barb are gimping the party dps. Eidolons have very low relative attack and will not benefit as much as a great axe specced melee. A level 1 Barb with raging and enlarge person, MW GreatAxe, Wpn Focuse Greataxe, Powerattack has: +9 attack, 3d6+15 damage. No Eidolon will come close to that as many of their attacks will miss.
This isn't really relevant because it's an ability that comes with the summoner, not with the barbarian. I doubt most players are thinking about this in terms of dps during an encounter. In my group it frequently winds up that both are enlarged.
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Flexibility is the beauty and curse of the english language.:)
Just imagine how much clearer the share spells paragraph would be thanks to a well-placed "also" in second sentence.
You misunderstand me. I think the wording is fine as it is, I just don't see a point in arguing it.
I tend to be conservative and avoid gray areas but in this case I don't feel it's a gray area at all, the sentence is pretty strait forward with no ties between the two. The fact that your also is missing is exactly what tells us they are two independent ideas. As Ith pointed out above reading it otherwise is redundant.
As an answer to Ogre :
I know that my build is sub-optimal. If you read my previous posts, you'll see that my goal was to see if the eidolon alone could outmatch a fighter of the same level, without any buff and any direct intervention from the summoner. This was in answer to the OP who saids that the eidolon was overpowered.
Using the standard WBL, the answer is no, there's no way that an eidolon alone could win against a decent fighter (if someone can prove me wrong on this, that would mean that the summoner class is 100% broken). However, that doesn't mean that a summoner + his eidolon couldn't beat the fighter, but that's another story.
Now, about the Diehard trick :
Unlike summoned monsters, the eidolon is not dismissed when he reach negative hp, he's dismissed when he is "killed" (-con score).
The summoner can only use Life Link to take the extra damage that would kill his eidolon. So if your eidolon don't have Diehard, you can only use Life Link when you eidolon is already uncounscious (hp = -con +1). Taking the Diehard feat (for the eidolon) is the only way to use Life Link in a effective way. It's a waste of hp otherwise, and you're better letting your already uncounscious eidolon simply die than wasting your precious hp on a corpse.
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An indignant attitude drove a poster off of the forums. In future, we might want to consider starting a thread with "this is a common complaint, here's a link" instead of "here we go again".
This kind of thread is only as contentious as we make it. It makes me sad that we couldn't help him, since I think we could have done something constructive for his game. :(
-1.
Oh I don't think so. The reply wasn't even that snarky compared to what you get in your average gish thread. If they are gonna have the you all better agree with me or else attitude in a DISCUSSION forum, I think it best if we do just chase them off right away so we don't have to deal with em.
Oh I don't think so. The reply wasn't even that snarky compared to what you get in your average gish thread. If they are gonna have the you all better agree with me or else attitude in a DISCUSSION forum, I think it best if we do just chase them off right away so we don't have to deal with em.An indignant attitude drove a poster off of the forums. In future, we might want to consider starting a thread with "this is a common complaint, here's a link" instead of "here we go again".
This kind of thread is only as contentious as we make it. It makes me sad that we couldn't help him, since I think we could have done something constructive for his game. :(
-1.
I would rather not follow the logic that we must all be jerky in order to desensatize newcomers to the jerks. Luckily, the OP in this thread started another thread with his build, and people seem to be alittle more helpful there.
There are several dozen people here who bandy about their superior knowledge of the game. If they can't apply that knowledge constructively in the one situation where it is helpful, that is shameful.