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Ok last night for the first time (pretty much) in the last 20 years or so that i DM pen & paper i got got TOTALY off guard!
A new player was added to the last minute, long story short he went in with a level 4 summoner from the advanced player guide. At the moment levels are ranging from 4.5 to 6. NO ONE around the table had a single clue about that class. It sounds cool up until the first encounter!
From that point on that eidolon became the most powerfull character of the whole party.
4 attack all of 'em primary, 10' reach with a bite that almost auto trip! Over 40 HP, dmg dealt around 12-15 per hit! power attack.. name it it have it all!
Next to this the poor tiny barbarian was totaly OUTCLASSED with its meager 1 swing of greataxe.. not talking about the rest of the party that was totaly shocked! At the end of the session everybody was feeling like living a bad dream!
Honestly so far i was more then delighted about pathfinder and the wonders that paizo are doin... but if peoples at paizo went to the conclusion that this is balanced i have only one question to ask:
You guyz are smoking crack right?
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Ok last night for the first time (pretty much) in the last 20 years or so that i DM pen & paper i got got TOTALY off guard!
A new player was added to the last minute, long story short he went in with a level 4 summoner from the advanced player guide. At the moment levels are ranging from 4.5 to 6. NO ONE around the table had a single clue about that class. It sounds cool up until the first encounter!
From that point on that eidolon became the most powerfull character of the whole party.
4 attack all of 'em primary, 10' reach with a bite that almost auto trip! Over 40 HP, dmg dealt around 12-15 per hit! power attack.. name it it have it all!
Next to this the poor tiny barbarian was totaly OUTCLASSED with its meager 1 swing of greataxe.. not talking about the rest of the party that was totaly shocked! At the end of the session everybody was feeling like living a bad dream!Honestly so far i was more then delighted about pathfinder and the wonders that paizo are doin... but if peoples at paizo went to the conclusion that this is balanced i have only one question to ask:
You guyz are smoking crack right?
lol.
Here we go again...
Ok last night for the first time (pretty much) in the last 20 years or so that i DM pen & paper i got got TOTALY off guard!
A new player was added to the last minute, long story short he went in with a level 4 summoner from the advanced player guide. At the moment levels are ranging from 4.5 to 6. NO ONE around the table had a single clue about that class. It sounds cool up until the first encounter!
From that point on that eidolon became the most powerfull character of the whole party.
4 attack all of 'em primary, 10' reach with a bite that almost auto trip! Over 40 HP, dmg dealt around 12-15 per hit! power attack.. name it it have it all!
Next to this the poor tiny barbarian was totaly OUTCLASSED with its meager 1 swing of greataxe.. not talking about the rest of the party that was totaly shocked! At the end of the session everybody was feeling like living a bad dream!Honestly so far i was more then delighted about pathfinder and the wonders that paizo are doin... but if peoples at paizo went to the conclusion that this is balanced i have only one question to ask:
You guyz are smoking crack right?
Post your build, not to be rude but the odds are is the numbers are off.
and the ugh from the majority is because it isn't and this thread gets started alot and everytime it gets shown the summoner isn't broken, just a decent class.
Post if you want a real answer to your question (which sounds a little accusatory and rhetorical).
Before calling a class broken remember it is working in most groups without issues. If it is broken for your group, and it seems that way you should tell us why. You may also have to make sure it was built correctly. Many mistakes are made with eidolons. You also have to look at the encounters, and the barbarian* itself.
*The class is not getting too much respect around here anyway unless you give it pounce.
PS:There are many threads that start like this. Feel free to read them for other ideas, and to prepare you for what will be said if you try to call the summoner overpowered.
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PS:There are many threads that start like this. Feel free to read them for other ideas, and to prepare you for what will be said if you try to call the summoner overpowered.
I won't need to! From i can already smell it's pretty obvious that i'll be the only one around here thinking their might be a problem!
I'll suck it up and go somewhere else!
PS:There are many threads that start like this. Feel free to read them for other ideas, and to prepare you for what will be said if you try to call the summoner overpowered.I won't need to! From i can already smell it's pretty obvious that i'll be the only one around here thinking their might be a problem!
I'll suck it up and go somewhere else!
So instead of trying to figure out if there is a problem with the character being played by asking us for advice you are immediately going to dismiss our perspective experiences and knowledge because you want people to agree with your point of view?
^ ^
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Yeah it definitely sounds like your player made some miscalculations for his eidolon. (40 HP with 3 HD? Maybe if you have a Con close to 30...)
Ok last night for the first time (pretty much) in the last 20 years or so that i DM pen & paper i got got TOTALY off guard!
A new player was added to the last minute, long story short he went in with a level 4 summoner from the advanced player guide. At the moment levels are ranging from 4.5 to 6. NO ONE around the table had a single clue about that class. It sounds cool up until the first encounter!
From that point on that eidolon became the most powerfull character of the whole party.
4 attack all of 'em primary, 10' reach with a bite that almost auto trip! Over 40 HP, dmg dealt around 12-15 per hit! power attack.. name it it have it all!
Next to this the poor tiny barbarian was totaly OUTCLASSED with its meager 1 swing of greataxe.. not talking about the rest of the party that was totaly shocked! At the end of the session everybody was feeling like living a bad dream!Honestly so far i was more then delighted about pathfinder and the wonders that paizo are doin... but if peoples at paizo went to the conclusion that this is balanced i have only one question to ask:
You guyz are smoking crack right?
If the Paizo people do not think it is overbalanced, it is a belief shared with most of the boards. I myself was in the camp of it being overpowered, but then I took time to read some of the responces in other such threads. In many cases, it was due to missing a part of the rules in creation. In some cases, it was due to bringing in 3.5 feats or houserules that worked in the eidolan's favor. And in alot of cases, it was due to the DM being unprepared for the critter as well as being uninformed to the classes inherent weaknesses. Personally, I fell into that catagory. I would also suggest reading other threads on the summoner class. This is not a "snarky" responce, one can really find the discussions to be helpful.
Greg
EDIT/PS Seriously, post the build. You, yourself said that no one had a clue about the class and the character was added at the last minute. Perhaps, the crunchers can assist with reviewing the build for common/uncommon mistakes. Truely, most people here want to help. Don't give up because of snarks in the water.
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I won't need to! From i can already smell it's pretty obvious that i'll be the only one around here thinking their might be a problem!
I'll suck it up and go somewhere else!
It is very likely that your player has made some mistakes and overlooked some things that are meant to be balancing factors for the eidolon. If you want him to continue running it that way, you can take the approach you mention there. If you want to be sure he is running a legal character you can post the build and we can help you by pointing out where mistakes have been made.
The summoner is new and everything about it is new to both GMs and players. If you have one at your table you should look at this as an opportunity to become familiar with the class through the advice of some people who have been examining it in detail.
Does your PCs have the recommended WBL (wealth by level) in your campaing ?
Can we see the summoner's feats ?
Can we see the eidolon's stats and evolutions ?
We know so little about your specific situation that we can't really help you, nor can we agree or disagree with you about the summoner been a overpowered class for your specific campaing.
If no one at the table, including you, had a clue about the Summoner then it sounds like you let someone play a class at the table from a book you either didn't own or hadn't ever read.
I'd suggest getting a copy, reading it, and then comparing it to the character.
Audit him, make sure he's following all the rules while at the same time making yourself intimately familiar with each and every one of them.
It'll help.
-S
PS:There are many threads that start like this. Feel free to read them for other ideas, and to prepare you for what will be said if you try to call the summoner overpowered.I won't need to! From i can already smell it's pretty obvious that i'll be the only one around here thinking their might be a problem!
I'll suck it up and go somewhere else!
If that is the attitude you are going to have about trying to discuss an issue, I recommend you just boycott the class and move on.
PS:There are many threads that start like this. Feel free to read them for other ideas, and to prepare you for what will be said if you try to call the summoner overpowered.I won't need to! From i can already smell it's pretty obvious that i'll be the only one around here thinking their might be a problem!
I'll suck it up and go somewhere else!
So instead of trying to figure out if there is a problem with the character being played by asking us for advice you are immediately going to dismiss our perspective experiences and knowledge because you want people to agree with your point of view?
^ ^
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I guess he just wanted to find someone to agree with him.
I guess he just wanted to find someone to agree with him.
PS:There are many threads that start like this. Feel free to read them for other ideas, and to prepare you for what will be said if you try to call the summoner overpowered.I won't need to! From i can already smell it's pretty obvious that i'll be the only one around here thinking their might be a problem!
I'll suck it up and go somewhere else!
So instead of trying to figure out if there is a problem with the character being played by asking us for advice you are immediately going to dismiss our perspective experiences and knowledge because you want people to agree with your point of view?
^ ^
. .
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It would appear so wraithstrike, it would appear so.
And he would have find some people who agree with him if he could have waited for more than 3 answers before bailing is own thread. However, when you want to discuss something like this, you have to accept that some people may not agree with you.
By the way I'm in the "summoner is overpowered" team, but without any solid example, we can't have a serious discussion about it. Like any other class, it can be overpowered or underpowered, depending on the campaing setting. For example, a monk in a prehistoric campaing setting is overpowered. (;
Yeah we would need to see the stats, off hand the HP are off, I am getting 3 HD, if it is serpentine{for the reach bit} your looking at a con of 13 and a total of 19 hp, the AC would be around 15 the attack around +4 or +5 at most, less the power attack. And you would need something like pounce to use all 4 with a move action anyhow.
You get 7 evo points with bite, climb, reach (bite), tail, tail slap.. So if he would need to buy legs/arms and claws and trip.
The trail slap would be secondary however.
As others have said. Check your math and really look at what he is using. Good chances is he has done it wrong. In fact with 40 HP he pretty much had to do it wrong.
And he would have find some people who agree with him if he could have waited for more than 3 answers before bailing is own thread. However, when you want to discuss something like this, you have to accept that some people may not agree with you.
By the way I'm in the "summoner is overpowered" team, but without any solid example, we can't have a serious discussion about it. Like any other class, it can be overpowered or underpowered, depending on the campaing setting. For example, a monk in a prehistoric campaing setting is overpowered. (;
I implore you to make a summoner of a given level that I can not make an equal counter part with the same resources for any class (I am not the best with all classes but I will definitely give it a shot) so we can have a discussion if it is "overpowered" as you say.
if you would like, we dont have to. Honestly thats a big time commitment.
I implore you to make a summoner of a given level that I can not make an equal counter part with the same resources for any class (I am not the best with all classes but I will definitely give it a shot) so we can have a discussion if it is "overpowered" as you say.
if you would like, we dont have to. Honestly thats a big time commitment.
My friend, "overpowered" is always relative. I know that you could easily beat any summoner I can build with a wizard specialist, a cleric or a druid, because the summoner is not overpowered when compared to such classes. However, I think that the summoner is above the "middle ground" in term of power, when compared to the 11 core classes. I'm not a big fan of PvP, but i'll try to build a 4th-level summoner's eidolon. I never playtested this class, and this can be an interesting experience for both of us. I'd like you to build a melee class, like a fighter or a barbarian, in tribute to the OP. This will be my first PvP post by the way, so it's all quite new to me. :)
So, what are the rules? Standard WBL? 15 point-buy? Fighter vs Eidolon only (the summoner will just watch the fight, without doing anything)?
No pre-buffs please!
P.S.: I'll try to make the build this week.
I implore you to make a summoner of a given level that I can not make an equal counter part with the same resources for any class (I am not the best with all classes but I will definitely give it a shot) so we can have a discussion if it is "overpowered" as you say.
if you would like, we dont have to. Honestly thats a big time commitment.
My friend, "overpowered" is always relative. I know that you could easily beat any summoner I can build with a wizard specialist, a cleric or a druid, because the summoner is not overpowered when compared to such classes. However, I think that the summoner is above the "middle ground" in term of power, when compared to the 11 core classes. I'm not a big fan of PvP, but i'll try to build a 4th-level summoner's eidolon. I never playtested this class, and this can be an interesting experience for both of us. I'd like you to build a melee class, like a fighter or a barbarian, in tribute to the OP. This will be my first PvP post by the way, so it's all quite new to me. :)
So, what are the rules? Standard WBL? 15 point-buy? Fighter vs Eidolon only (the summoner will just watch the fight, without doing anything)?
No pre-buffs please!
P.S.: I'll try to make the build this week.
IMHO
You should probably include the summoner if you want the Eidolon to have a chance.I think level 10 is a good choice.
Standard WBL
15 PB
Personally, I'm always stunned people hate on the eidolon so much when a level 4 summoner is a slight amount of foresight away from rolling into a fight with a pack of wolves.
Plus, there are no rules you couldn't then summon your eidolon after summoning a pack of wolves. Summoning an eidolon takes 1 minute, and each wolf lasts 4 minutes, and with a round at 6s each there is no reason this isn't viable.
Personally, I'm always stunned people hate on the eidolon so much when a level 4 summoner is a slight amount of foresight away from rolling into a fight with a pack of wolves.
Plus, there are no rules you couldn't then summon your eidolon after summoning a pack of wolves. Summoning an eidolon takes 1 minute, and each wolf lasts 4 minutes, and with a round at 6s each there is no reason this isn't viable.
Gotta disagree with that one. It's a rare fight that goes on 10 rounds, rarer still that 1d4+1 wolves (even with Augment Summoning) will last that long HP-wise, and even rarer that a half-intelligent foe will let an obvious caster stand still and chant for a full minute without interfering.
If you want to be able to tag in and out with Eidolon and Summons, then the Summon Eidolon spell is what you want.
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Personally, I'm always stunned people hate on the eidolon so much when a level 4 summoner is a slight amount of foresight away from rolling into a fight with a pack of wolves.
Plus, there are no rules you couldn't then summon your eidolon after summoning a pack of wolves. Summoning an eidolon takes 1 minute, and each wolf lasts 4 minutes, and with a round at 6s each there is no reason this isn't viable.
Except you can't use the Eidolon and the Summon SLA at the same time.
Ninja'd by Zappo and the Summon Eidolon spell. Always forget that one...
I implore you to make a summoner of a given level that I can not make an equal counter part with the same resources for any class (I am not the best with all classes but I will definitely give it a shot) so we can have a discussion if it is "overpowered" as you say.
if you would like, we dont have to. Honestly thats a big time commitment.
My friend, "overpowered" is always relative. I know that you could easily beat any summoner I can build with a wizard specialist, a cleric or a druid, because the summoner is not overpowered when compared to such classes. However, I think that the summoner is above the "middle ground" in term of power, when compared to the 11 core classes. I'm not a big fan of PvP, but i'll try to build a 4th-level summoner's eidolon. I never playtested this class, and this can be an interesting experience for both of us. I'd like you to build a melee class, like a fighter or a barbarian, in tribute to the OP. This will be my first PvP post by the way, so it's all quite new to me. :)
So, what are the rules? Standard WBL? 15 point-buy? Fighter vs Eidolon only (the summoner will just watch the fight, without doing anything)?
No pre-buffs please!
P.S.: I'll try to make the build this week.
15 or 20 your choice, WBL and I will choose fighter.
I would like it if someone else would choose the setting so neither of us can metagame the situation (although it will mostly come down to numbers).
If anyone else wants to throw a hat in I am fine. I would love to see a rogue give it a shot.
Only RAW allowed but everything in the APG?
traits yes, but only 1. And just because I know as a player that summoner's lose the eidolon if they themselves are struck i wont automatically target the summoner unless something keys the fighter into him being a more serious threat over the summoner.
Personally, I'm always stunned people hate on the eidolon so much when a level 4 summoner is a slight amount of foresight away from rolling into a fight with a pack of wolves.
Plus, there are no rules you couldn't then summon your eidolon after summoning a pack of wolves. Summoning an eidolon takes 1 minute, and each wolf lasts 4 minutes, and with a round at 6s each there is no reason this isn't viable.
Except you can't use the Eidolon and the Summon SLA at the same time.
Ninja'd by Zappo and the Summon Eidolon spell. Always forget that one...
Whoa-pah! :P
Technically he's right in that you could summon the wolves, and then start the 1 minute ritual to bring in the Eidolon. Presumably the wolves wouldn't poof until the Eidolon showed up. I just think that it's probably a bad idea. :)
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Ok last night for the first time (pretty much) in the last 20 years or so that i DM pen & paper i got got TOTALY off guard!
A new player was added to the last minute, long story short he went in with a level 4 summoner from the advanced player guide. At the moment levels are ranging from 4.5 to 6. NO ONE around the table had a single clue about that class. It sounds cool up until the first encounter!
From that point on that eidolon became the most powerfull character of the whole party.
4 attack all of 'em primary, 10' reach with a bite that almost auto trip! Over 40 HP, dmg dealt around 12-15 per hit! power attack.. name it it have it all!
Next to this the poor tiny barbarian was totaly OUTCLASSED with its meager 1 swing of greataxe.. not talking about the rest of the party that was totaly shocked! At the end of the session everybody was feeling like living a bad dream!Honestly so far i was more then delighted about pathfinder and the wonders that paizo are doin... but if peoples at paizo went to the conclusion that this is balanced i have only one question to ask:
You guyz are smoking crack right?
Since you've decided that the collected opinion and experience is not helpful all I feel like I can do is LOL at you. Summoners are not over powered and are relatively easily challenged by the DM. The most you should have to do is alter an encounter or review the players sheet after learning about the class. Summoners are an average balanced class that shines in specific situations as do other classes. LOL
And just because I know as a player that summoner's lose the eidolon if they themselves are struck...
Huh? How so?
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And just because I know as a player that summoner's lose the eidolon if they themselves are struck i wont automatically target the summoner unless something keys the fighter into him being a more serious threat over the summoner.
Maybe if that one strike knocks out/kills the Summoner it might, but otherwise the Eidolon ought to just turn around and bite you for hurting its daddy...
I implore you to make a summoner of a given level that I can not make an equal counter part with the same resources for any class (I am not the best with all classes but I will definitely give it a shot) so we can have a discussion if it is "overpowered" as you say.
if you would like, we dont have to. Honestly thats a big time commitment.
My friend, "overpowered" is always relative. I know that you could easily beat any summoner I can build with a wizard specialist, a cleric or a druid, because the summoner is not overpowered when compared to such classes. However, I think that the summoner is above the "middle ground" in term of power, when compared to the 11 core classes. I'm not a big fan of PvP, but i'll try to build a 4th-level summoner's eidolon. I never playtested this class, and this can be an interesting experience for both of us. I'd like you to build a melee class, like a fighter or a barbarian, in tribute to the OP. This will be my first PvP post by the way, so it's all quite new to me. :)
So, what are the rules? Standard WBL? 15 point-buy? Fighter vs Eidolon only (the summoner will just watch the fight, without doing anything)?
No pre-buffs please!
P.S.: I'll try to make the build this week.
15 or 20 your choice, WBL and I will choose fighter.
I would like it if someone else would choose the setting so neither of us can metagame the situation (although it will mostly come down to numbers).
If anyone else wants to throw a hat in I am fine. I would love to see a rogue give it a shot.
Only RAW allowed but everything in the APG?
traits yes, but only 1. And just because I know as a player that summoner's lose the eidolon if they themselves are struck i wont automatically target the summoner unless something keys the fighter into him being a more serious threat over the summoner.
I will choose the setting if you guys don't mind. I think the APG should be allowed, but the final choice is up to you guys.
The question is are you making arena builds or adventure builds?
I will choose the setting if you guys don't mind. I think the APG should be allowed, but the final...
Im putting some flavor on mine he will be an adventure build.
As for how we encounter each other it doesnt matter to me as long as the situation is a logical one that could happen, just put some spice on it and try to keep it as fair as possible (dont make it a sandstorm so he has to roll caster level checks every round or make it so my fighter cannot move without taking severe minuses (when his Summoner likely wont have to move)
please :) make me want to battle his summoner for some reason
(whether I am evil or he is or both neutral)
to others:
I meant if I were to grapple the summoner or some such nature just because I know he is a caster and if he drops the eidolon goes away. there is no way a fighter would know that unless he studied summoners specifically so I would just think the Eidolon was the BBEG, its only fair.
And just because I know as a player that summoner's lose the eidolon if they themselves are struck...Huh? How so?
struck down :S missed a word there lol
Summoners are cheesy. There's no denying it. People above saying it is just normal are liars! On top of everything else lets not forget how the summoners spell list looks like it is staggered but they get the bigger spells at lower levels. A great example is haste at 4th level. Sooner than ANY other class. Anyway that's not what's important. what's important is helping you fix this problem.
I have a summoner in my group and I have had a few hard times with it. The player in my group even has augmented summoning so his eidolon comes with 4 str and 4 con. I've yet to kill it. But in my group it serves as the main tank and dpser. So no one really has any gripes. The class is powerful and self sustaining with the summoners ability to sac health and heal it with heal spells. Here's what i've done to kind of balance it in my game.
1. Any ability that you get 3+whatever stat. I nerfed it to just the stat mod. Ie channel energy and summon monster abilities. so a cha 16 would give a player 3 channel energies a day, not 6.
2. I don't let my summoner wear light armor. This rule is broken whoever made that is stupid. Summoner is arcane. They have no combat abilities so why give them armor?
3. My summoners summon monsters still only last rounds/level
4. He's got to be adjacent to his pet to buff it with spells. (Not sure if this is the regular ruling anyway)
Another idea would be to modify the eidolon table. Give it less Bab. Make it have d8 hit dice. Or even lessen the amount of evo points your summoner gets. I haven't done any of these as my players are only level 2, but it's just an idea.
The summoner is the most powerful class in my group but I feel like those options might help you bring it in to check a bit.
Expect this class to reign supreme over everyone else. If it doesn't fit into your setting, I'd say have the player reroll.
Somewhere in another thread on this topic (don't ask me which one, they are legion) it was said by one of the designers that the Eidolon gains nothing from the Augment Summon spell, with the reason posted with it. Forgot why, but it made sense...
Not sure why I bother, but here goes again...
Summoners are cheesy. There's no denying it. The player in my group even has augmented summoning so his eidolon comes with 4 str and 4 con. I've yet to kill it. But in my group it serves as the main tank and dpser. So no one really has any gripes. The class is powerful and self sustaining with the summoners ability to sac health and heal it with heal spells. Here's what i've done to kind of balance it in my game.
Augment summoning DOES NOT WORK on the Eidelon unless you summon it via the Summon Eidelon spell. The ritual is not a spell, and the feat doesn't affect the Eidelon's normal one minute ritual summon.
1. Any ability that you get 3+whatever stat. I nerfed it to just the stat mod. Ie channel energy and summon monster abilities. so a cha 16 would give a player 3 channel energies a day, not 6.
Did you do this to the Cleric domain abilities as well? The Sorcerer's bloodline abilities?
2. I don't let my summoner wear light armor. This rule is broken whoever made that is stupid. Summoner is arcane. They have no combat abilities so why give them armor?
Bard's cast Arcane and wear light armor, I'm assuming you also took light armor from the bards?
3. My summoners summon monsters still only last rounds/level
So, he's no better at summoning than a specialized wizard? No, he's worse, no school bonus. And, he can't use his SLA while his Eidelon is around. Or were you applying his minute per level to his spells as well? That would be wrong, it only applies to the SLA.
4. He's got to be adjacent to his pet to buff it with spells. (Not sure if this is the regular ruling anyway)
He has to be in range of the spell. If the spell is close, he shouldn't have to be touching the eidelon to buff it but yet be able to buff the fighter from 40 feet away.
Most of the stories of 'OMG Summoner Borked' result from people not reading the rules.
I will choose the setting if you guys don't mind. I think the APG should be allowed, but the final...Im putting some flavor on mine he will be an adventure build.
As for how we encounter each other it doesnt matter to me as long as the situation is a logical one that could happen, just put some spice on it and try to keep it as fair as possible (dont make it a sandstorm so he has to roll caster level checks every round or make it so my fighter cannot move without taking severe minuses (when his Summoner likely wont have to move)
please :) make me want to battle his summoner for some reason
(whether I am evil or he is or both neutral)to others:
I meant if I were to grapple the summoner or some such nature just because I know he is a caster and if he drops the eidolon goes away. there is no way a fighter would know that unless he studied summoners specifically so I would just think the Eidolon was the BBEG, its only fair.
IIRC hit points are shared between the two, effectively, so you have to go through both sets of hit points to kill them.
Ok just the other night I posted on "summoners are to powerful" and tried to back up the halfway decent class it is. Yes I like & enjoy it but here me out it is limited to melee & depends on your build type. It sounds like you as a DM were unprepared, it happens next game plan out for the new edition in your group try & balance your NPC's to your group. I dont think you should quit. I believe the posts of people saying "here we go again" is because there is like SOOO many posts on Summoner good,Summoner bad no pun intended. I have a fighter in the group who does more damage & hits better so its how you build it. Good Luck and dont be to sensitive.
Summoners are cheesy. There's no denying it. People above saying it is just normal are liars! On top of everything else lets not forget how the summoners spell list looks like it is staggered but they get the bigger spells at lower levels. A great example is haste at 4th level. Sooner than ANY other class. Anyway that's not what's important. what's important is helping you fix this problem.
I have a summoner in my group and I have had a few hard times with it. The player in my group even has augmented summoning so his eidolon comes with 4 str and 4 con. I've yet to kill it. But in my group it serves as the main tank and dpser. So no one really has any gripes. The class is powerful and self sustaining with the summoners ability to sac health and heal it with heal spells. Here's what i've done to kind of balance it in my game.
1. Any ability that you get 3+whatever stat. I nerfed it to just the stat mod. Ie channel energy and summon monster abilities. so a cha 16 would give a player 3 channel energies a day, not 6.
2. I don't let my summoner wear light armor. This rule is broken whoever made that is stupid. Summoner is arcane. They have no combat abilities so why give them armor?
3. My summoners summon monsters still only last rounds/level
4. He's got to be adjacent to his pet to buff it with spells. (Not sure if this is the regular ruling anyway)
Another idea would be to modify the eidolon table. Give it less Bab. Make it have d8 hit dice. Or even lessen the amount of evo points your summoner gets. I haven't done any of these as my players are only level 2, but it's just an idea.
The summoner is the most powerful class in my group but I feel like those options might help you bring it in to check a bit.
Expect this class to reign supreme over everyone else. If it doesn't fit into your setting, I'd say have the player reroll.
Have you tried using DR against it? Don't forget they share magic items slots. So if one is wearing armor(fill in other magic item as needed), then the other one can't use that slot. :)
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An indignant attitude drove a poster off of the forums. In future, we might want to consider starting a thread with "this is a common complaint, here's a link" instead of "here we go again".
This kind of thread is only as contentious as we make it. It makes me sad that we couldn't help him, since I think we could have done something constructive for his game. :(
-1.
Our DM decided it would be fun to have a 10th level PVP party between a bunch of his usual players one week.
Two people brought summoners. I am not sure if this speaks to the power of the particular builds, but one of them was picked up by our resident powergamer.
One of the summoners fell to a Wizard because well. Wizards. (As a side note, the Wizard lost to a cleric.)
The other one died because both he and his Eidolon got caught in the explosion radius of a quickened fireball targeted on a thrown Necklace of Fireballs type VII from a Fire domain cleric.
An indignant attitude drove a poster off of the forums. In future, we might want to consider starting a thread with "this is a common complaint, here's a link" instead of "here we go again".
This kind of thread is only as contentious as we make it. It makes me sad that we couldn't help him, since I think we could have done something constructive for his game. :(
-1.
Its good to keep in mind. Just because people may have seen a similar question over and over again, that doesn't mean that the poster has seen those discussions.
Its always a good thing to at least try and view where someone might be coming from and answer in that manner, rather than from frustration at the aggregate questions from other people over the months and years.
I will choose the setting if you guys don't mind. I think the APG should be allowed, but the final...Im putting some flavor on mine he will be an adventure build.
As for how we encounter each other it doesnt matter to me as long as the situation is a logical one that could happen, just put some spice on it and try to keep it as fair as possible (dont make it a sandstorm so he has to roll caster level checks every round or make it so my fighter cannot move without taking severe minuses (when his Summoner likely wont have to move)
please :) make me want to battle his summoner for some reason
(whether I am evil or he is or both neutral)to others:
I meant if I were to grapple the summoner or some such nature just because I know he is a caster and if he drops the eidolon goes away. there is no way a fighter would know that unless he studied summoners specifically so I would just think the Eidolon was the BBEG, its only fair.
Here is the premise:
Fighter:You have been assigned to protect a young lady from an evil assassin who works with an other worldly beast to complete his contracts. OOC-->This allows you to base the acceptance of the assignment on whatever principals you have, which may only be gold
Summoner:You have been tasked with obtaining the Shard of Scions from a thief. She is supposed to be well guarded. You have to get to her before she hands the item off. Time is running out......
I will see if I can get a graphical map setup.
Don't get me wrong, some threads totally deserve a "here we go again" response. I just don't think this is one of them. I'm a forum regular and an experienced GM, and I was just digesting the Summoner class a week ago... If I wasn't here all the time, I probably would have had the same questions as this guy did.
If the forums aren't here for us to help each other learn the game, what are they here for? The day it becomes entirely about intellectual mastubration at the expense of others' self-respect, I'll hang up my stovepipe hat and never return.
I will choose the setting if you guys don't mind. I think the APG should be allowed, but the final...Im putting some flavor on mine he will be an adventure build.
As for how we encounter each other it doesnt matter to me as long as the situation is a logical one that could happen, just put some spice on it and try to keep it as fair as possible (dont make it a sandstorm so he has to roll caster level checks every round or make it so my fighter cannot move without taking severe minuses (when his Summoner likely wont have to move)
please :) make me want to battle his summoner for some reason
(whether I am evil or he is or both neutral)to others:
I meant if I were to grapple the summoner or some such nature just because I know he is a caster and if he drops the eidolon goes away. there is no way a fighter would know that unless he studied summoners specifically so I would just think the Eidolon was the BBEG, its only fair.Here is the premise:
Fighter:You have been assigned to protect a young lady from an evil assassin who works with an other worldly beast to complete his contracts. OOC-->This allows you to base the acceptance of the assignment on whatever principals you have, which may only be gold
Summoner:You have been tasked with obtaining the Shard of Scions from a thief. She is supposed to be well guarded. You have to get to her before she hands the item off. Time is running out......
I will see if I can get a graphical map setup.
ooooooooooooooh I like that.
hmmm I will decide after a while what my build will be... might just be a greedy f!*!.
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all I was doing is trying to help the guy out by offering some optional ideas. But you come in and act like a douche know it all.
Well, at least he didn't start out by calling people liars.
People above saying it is just normal are liars!
I mean, that'd be really douchey, wouldn't it?
I don't think any of the PF core classes are either overpowered or underpowered. There are simply too many variables for such a claim to be supported. One can show given certain assumptions that some classes in some situations are better than others, but that's about it.
My beef with the summoner is that I don't particularly like classes with battle pets. I'm not terribly fond of animal companions either. Exploiting the action economy is the not-so-secret weapon in the game system, and "pet classes" do seem to have an undue advantage in that arena.
Now, that said, I do have two players in my current campaign running druids, so my pet peeve (get it? pet peeve?) isn't a game-breaker for me.
Now, that said, I do have two players in my current campaign running druids, so my pet peeve (get it? pet peeve?) isn't a game-breaker for me.
I dont know who you think you are....
but your puns are quit entertaining.
+1 sir, +1.
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Our DM decided it would be fun to have a 10th level PVP party between a bunch of his usual players one week.
Two people brought summoners. I am not sure if this speaks to the power of the particular builds, but one of them was picked up by our resident powergamer.
One of the summoners fell to a Wizard because well. Wizards. (As a side note, the Wizard lost to a cleric.)
The other one died because both he and his Eidolon got caught in the explosion radius of a quickened fireball targeted on a thrown Necklace of Fireballs type VII from a Fire domain cleric.
You kill the summoner, not the eidelon.