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Hmmm.
The New Guy used a phrase "love about 4E" in one of his posts back 2 years ago.
I sense trouble ;-)
LOL. I will freely admit that I do love lots of things about 4e. Before you start throwing bricks, hear me out.
First off, I helped build it. I worked on it for a number of years, and until you hit the Essentials line it's hard to find a 4e book that doesn’t have my name in the credits. I still do freelance work for the system. It's a mature love, though. It’s got history, with both good times and bad. I love it for its strengths and flaws and I'm very cognizant of both.
I plan on taking that knowledge and experience and applying it toward Pathfinder. I know that the Pathfinder fan may like some ideas in 4e, but they want a different experience and application of those ideas. I also know that people like to play Pathfinder because it is an excellent evolution of the best game on the planet, and they don’t want anyone to mess with what makes it awesome. I plan to make sure that you get what you want in the best form possible. Period.
That’s the Paizo philosophy and I think it is the best one in the industry. It’s one of the main reasons that when I was offered the job, I jump in it.
So let’s confirm some crits, shall we?
No problem, a game designer is a merc - he does what the job says. Here's to hope for lots of cool PF content from you, Stephen !
Just beware, the mere fact of having your name on a 4E book makes you a traitor of human race and destroyer of worlds for some. ;-)
(...)
Beyond confirming that we're working on an intro game, we haven't yet said much more about it yet. Beyond asking, "What would YOU like to see in an intro game?"
Thank you for the reply, I will take it easy now (softer slime oozing off) and clearly keep an eye out.
Any Paizo staff have a standing invitation to PaizoCon UK. Just let me know if anybody decides to come along.
Actually, the older news of "We finally have someone in the marketing position" is more good news for the possibility of Paizo folks going to PaizoCon UK than anything else.
And listen, the stories about them being eaten when they come over here just isn't true.
However, the person in question used to be employed by the same company as Monte ... wait, what was it ... Sorcerers by the Shore ? Witches of the Waterways ? I can never remember ...
This wouldn't have really excited me at all. (Actually, due to a significant amount of uninspired stuff over the past bunch of years, that's closer to "bad news" and a knock against 'em to me...)
Hey,
I'm just throwing this out there, SRM - If this job means less NeoGrognard, then please quit. ;)
Seriously, don't let that blog flounder. Good, insightful stuff there . . . and it is hard to find quality blogs amongst the overwhelming quantity.
Matthew AC
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However, the person in question used to be employed by the same company as Monte ... wait, what was it ... Sorcerers by the Shore ? Witches of the Waterways ? I can never remember ...This wouldn't have really excited me at all. (Actually, due to a significant amount of uninspired stuff over the past bunch of years, that's closer to "bad news" and a knock against 'em to me...)
I hope that you are aware that Lisa Stevens, SKR and several others used to work at WotC at somet point :)
For the record, I didn’t work on d20 Modern.
Apologies Stephen, I don't know what I was thinking. I have no other defense than to say that I shouldn't post on cold medicine. ;)
Wayfinder, PaizoCon Founder
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I'll add my public congrats here, too. I had the opportunity to play with Stephen in Jason's Eberron campaign several years ago. There has never been such a man of the cloth as Father Adso. ;-)
After that game dwindled away, I have only seen Stephen here and there, so I am quite happy to discover that I will be seeing him a bit more often again!
Oh, and I am highly amused by the G and PG rated responses he must give in public.
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Aw...I was hoping you were talking about Greg Costikyan. Pathfinder could use a little influence from Toon and Paranoia. :-)I will not reveal my informers. They risk a lot to deliver the news.
And it isn't Monte. However, the person in question used to be employed by the same company as Monte ... wait, what was it ... Sorcerers by the Shore ? Witches of the Waterways ? I can never remember ...
Iomedae forbids!
by the way congratz Stephen :)
Saga was cool
Hmmm.
The New Guy used a phrase "love about 4E" in one of his posts back 2 years ago.
I sense trouble ;-)
LOL. I will freely admit that I do love lots of things about 4e.
And a very, very vocal defender of 4E, if I recall clearly....
Interesting.
I'd just like to point out that the 4E condemnation comes primarily through the players, not the Paizo staff. Since the release of 4E, I can think of no instances where they have disparaged the system, regardless of their true feelings about it. I have no qualms sharing how I feel about the system, probably to my detriment, but the Paizo staffers have been models of professionalism (and for all we know, some of them might actually play in some 4E games...).
I find all of this sorta interesting, just recently I read an interview by Mike Mearls that came out in September, I don't know how I missed it when it first came out, anyway he said something along the lines that he liked 4e but had a lot of nostalgia for previous versions of D&D. He then went on to say that the essentials product line was influenced by the old red boxed set.
Now Paizo's is getting Stephen, I'm starting to wonder if 4e was really a cherished system tenderly and lovingly reared by it's creators or more of an "It seemed like a good idea at the time" kind of thing.
In any case, in glade to see another great designer working for Paizo's, and as a more personal message to Stephen "welcome to the dark side".
I hope that you are aware that Lisa Stevens, SKR and several others used to work at WotC at somet point :)
I am well aware.
Hey,
I'm just throwing this out there, SRM - If this job means less NeoGrognard, then please quit. ;)
Seriously, don't let that blog flounder. Good, insightful stuff there . . . and it is hard to find quality blogs amongst the overwhelming quantity.
Matthew AC
LOL. Well thanks. I don't plan to let the blog flounder. There may be a week or two here and there where I'll have to lay a little low. Deadlines can be a harsh mistress if gone unrespected. But I have too much fun doing the blog to stop now.
Apologies Stephen, I don't know what I was thinking. I have no other defense than to say that I shouldn't post on cold medicine. ;)
For the record, I didn’t work on d20 Modern.
No harm done.
I'll add my public congrats here, too. I had the opportunity to play with Stephen in Jason's Eberron campaign several years ago. There has never been such a man of the cloth as Father Adso. ;-)
After that game dwindled away, I have only seen Stephen here and there, so I am quite happy to discover that I will be seeing him a bit more often again!
Oh, and I am highly amused by the G and PG rated responses he must give in public.
Hey just because I spent a number of my impressionable years in NYC and got in the habit of using profanity as punctuation doesn't mean I should do that on the net.
Come to think of it maybe I'm using the internet wrong.
And a very, very vocal defender of 4E, if I recall clearly....
A very vocal defender of RPGs, especially those based on "the oldest RPG.".
Hey Stephan, it was fun hanging out with you this weekend at NeonCon, and although I told you in person, I want to shout some congrats your way here on the boards, so...CONGRATS!
Thanks, Adam. It was good hanging with you too. I look forward to the next opportunity!
I find all of this sorta interesting, just recently I read an interview by Mike Mearls that came out in September, I don't know how I missed it when it first came out, anyway he said something along the lines that he liked 4e but had a lot of nostalgia for previous versions of D&D. He then went on to say that the essentials product line was influenced by the old red boxed set.
Now Paizo's is getting Stephen, I'm starting to wonder if 4e was really a cherished system tenderly and lovingly reared by it's creators or more of an "It seemed like a good idea at the time" kind of thing.
In any case, in glade to see another great designer working for Paizo's, and as a more personal message to Stephen "welcome to the dark side".
Designers are never happy with their work, and they always strive to produce new and better things. There are a lot of things I love about 4e, but I also have a list of things that I would have done differently if I won arguments. That list has diminished some with the release of Essentials.
I felt the same way about 3.5. That list diminished with the release of Pathfinder.
Iteration often improves games. But there is no Platonic form of game. It’s more like spaghetti sauce (see: Designers are never happy with their work, and they always strive to produce new and better things. There are a lot of things I love about 4e, but I also have a list of things that I would have done differently if I won arguments. That list has diminished some with the release of Essentials.
I felt the same way about 3.5. That list diminished with the release of Pathfinder.
Iteration often improves games. But there is no Platonic form of game. It’s more like spaghetti sauce, in that Malcolm Gladwell sense.
Designers are never happy with their work, and they always strive to produce new and better things. There are a lot of things I love about 4e, but I also have a list of things that I would have done differently if I won arguments. That list has diminished some with the release of Essentials.
I felt the same way about 3.5. That list diminished with the release of Pathfinder.
Iteration often improves games. But there is no Platonic form of game. It’s more like spaghetti sauce (see: Designers are never happy with their work, and they always strive to produce new and better things. There are a lot of things I love about 4e, but I also have a list of things that I would have done differently if I won arguments. That list has diminished some with the release of Essentials.
I felt the same way about 3.5. That list diminished with the release of Pathfinder.
Iteration often improves games. But there is no Platonic form of game. It’s more like spaghetti sauce, in that Malcolm Gladwell sense.
My earlier post was just my own personal musings, I hope you didn't misunderstand it. Anyway I agree with everything your saying, I'm a graphic designer, so I know what it's like to work hard on something and then look at it afterwords and feeling you could have done it differently or done more with an idea you touched on. And I think we all understand that the game must grow/evolve in order to find new audiences and improve clunky/unworkable mechanics.
I'm glad your so forthcoming, sometimes WOTC almost seemed to keep thing behind a veiled curtain then suddenly announcing big changes. That's the best thing when in comes to pathfinder, no veiled curtains.
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(Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber; GameMastery Superscriber)
Paizo is poised to lose approximately the GDP of Belize when you start getting your stuff for free. That's got to be a bummer for them.
Also, JG is working on Guild Wars 2!?!?! As a longtime GW 1 player, that is AMAZING news.
Welcome to the Golem.
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As you can see I’m a big snarling geek. As you can imagine, I should fit in just fine here.
I do not believe in public you ever snarled. You were the contemplative teddy bear of Living Greyhawk. I was amazed at how well you handled the slings and arrows (and maces, and kukri - lest us not forget the kukri).
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Hoh, this is great news! Welcome to Paizo, SRM! (By the way, has anyone ever told you that SRM sounds like a wrestling "gimmick", in the same vein as HBK or HHH?)
Anyway, glad to hear you worked on APG; it's probably my favorite D&D supplement (including all the editions) to date. There's just so much good stuff in the book that it boggles my mind! Keep up the good work! :)
EDIT: Come to think of it, I can see some minor 4E influences in APG mechanics (and I mean this in a positive sense). As you said, even diehard PF RPG fans may still like about *something* in 4E. Even though I prefer Pathfinder, I personally think there are many good qualities in 4E -- such as skill challenges and how NPCs and monsters are designed -- and I think PF RPG could benefit a lot from implementing certain aspects of 4E (for example, I can't make a PF low-level Antipaladin that would feel, mechanically, *that* different from a run-of-the-mill evil fighter; in 4E I *could*).
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And listen, the stories about them being eaten when they come over here just isn't true.Any Paizo staff have a standing invitation to PaizoCon UK. Just let me know if anybody decides to come along.
Actually, the older news of "We finally have someone in the marketing position" is more good news for the possibility of Paizo folks going to PaizoCon UK than anything else.
I can bear witness to that no Paizo staff was eaten during Gen Con UK 08 when they came to visit, But there was much beer drinken!
My earlier post was just my own personal musings, I hope you didn't misunderstand it. Anyway I agree with everything your saying, I'm a graphic designer, so I know what it's like to work hard on something and then look at it afterwords and feeling you could have done it differently or done more with an idea you touched on. And I think we all understand that the game must grow/evolve in order to find new audiences and improve clunky/unworkable mechanics.
No worries. I'm all for waxing philosophical. I'll just wax on with you.
I'm glad your so forthcoming, sometimes WOTC almost seemed to keep thing behind a veiled curtain then suddenly announcing big changes. That's the best thing when in comes to pathfinder, no veiled curtains.
Well there are lots of things companies can't talk about until a certain time. Sometimes they can't talk about them all. Paizo does foster a better sense of transparency and responsiveness. It’s one of the things I like about working here.
Welcome aboard, SRM. When I started reading the thread, I immediately knew who it was going to be :)
Thanks, Russ. I look forward to working with you again.
As you can see I’m a big snarling geek. As you can imagine, I should fit in just fine here.
I do not believe in public you ever snarled. You were the contemplative teddy bear of Living Greyhawk. I was amazed at how well you handled the slings and arrows (and maces, and kukri - lest us not forget the kukri).
Wow, I don't think I've ever been called a teddy bear. There were a lot of kukris back then. Now imagine me throwing up my hands and yelling up toward a downward pointing camera like Kirk in Wrath of Khan.
"TRISTOR!!!"
Hoh, this is great news! Welcome to Paizo, SRM! (By the way, has anyone ever told you that SRM sounds like a wrestling "gimmick", in the same vein as HBK or HHH?)
Well I do have the build of an aging wrestler who didn't keep up with the steroids. :-) Thanks for the welcome!
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Hey, Stephen,
What a nice surprise. I have to admit that my relationship to 4W is ...hmm... nonexistent, to use a neutral phrase. Nonetheless I immensely liked your column "Save my game" so you're personally responsible for making me spend money on 4E material (and finding to my "surprise", that, though I dislike the system, there are quite some ideas in Dragon and Dungeon magazine that I can use for my own games).
So thanks for helping me overcome my bias (at least partially), and welcome to the Paizo crew.
You also have my sympathies for looking like Ric Flair. :D
Is this the thread where we haze the new guy?
Is this the thread where we haze the new guy?
Isn't that every thread?
Is this the thread where we haze the new guy?Isn't that every thread?
Nah: THE new guy.
Nah: THE new guy.Is this the thread where we haze the new guy?Isn't that every thread?
Oh I see this is the thread where we specifically haze the new Paizo guy, but we can still haze him and the rest of the staff in all of the other threads, right?
Is this the thread where we haze the new guy?
Yes. Yes it is.
And ask him crazy questions about specifically how he will be increasing your home game's level of awesome.
Don't you deserve to know?
(to all)
Lordy, yes!
As usual, I will refuse to accept him until he gives me blog art. Big, beautiful, blog art.
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Just beware, the mere fact of having your name on a 4E book makes you a traitor of human race and destroyer of worlds for some. ;-)
Josh Frost has his name on a 4e book. But being a creator of 4e makes one "more" of a traitor. :)
Gygaxian Naturalism survived Gygax's involvement in the development of Dungeons & Dragons and formed one the most important, if often only sub-consciously, creative foundations of the game through its second and third editions. My read of the latest edition is that it largely rejects Gygaxian Naturalism without embracing the alternative offered by some interpretations of OD&D, instead opting for a different model altogether
http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2008/09/gygaxian-naturalism.html
I think Erik Mona understands this 100% lets see if new guy does.
Mike
Chief Technical Officer
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I'd just like to point out that the 4E condemnation comes primarily through the players, not the Paizo staff. Since the release of 4E, I can think of no instances where they have disparaged the system, regardless of their true feelings about it. I have no qualms sharing how I feel about the system, probably to my detriment, but the Paizo staffers have been models of professionalism (and for all we know, some of them might actually play in some 4E games...).
I'll tell you this—I don't *want* a staff that only plays our own games. That's how you get insular, and how you get groupthink, and how you fail to innovate.
If you owned a restaurant, would you want to have a chef who only ever ate dishes he made himself? No matter how good he is, he'd never grow very much without experiencing what the rest of the world has to offer. A chef who's interested in what other chefs are doing—and what they *aren't* doing—would be a far more valuable asset in my kitchen, guaranteed.
If you owned a restaurant, would you want to have a chef who only ever ate dishes he made himself? No matter how good he is, he'd never grow very much without experiencing what the rest of the world has to offer. A chef who's interested in what other chefs are doing—and what they *aren't* doing—would be a far more valuable asset in my kitchen, guaranteed.
Food analogy FTW! :D
As much as I dislike 4E, there are very many parts of PF that could be substantially improved via a healthy injection of some of the 4E concepts.
I strongly welcome Stephen and HOPE he does SOME injecting. :)