PvP Fight Club

[ciretose]

I don't know if this has been done, but if it hasn't been it should be.

I propose starting a PvP league of sorts.

Levels would work the same as weight classes. You can add tiers for different point buys if you like. Equipment buys are all done per gp per level with all appropriate restrictions.

You submit your characters to a third party DM/Ref (so no one has the advantage of seeing prepared spells), then go to the play by post forum, roll for initiative and fight it out.

The set up of "the ring" would need to be figured out, how far apart you start and such, but generally keep it simple.

Thoughts?

[Carbon D. Metric]

My only thoughts would be that whoever wins initiative will win almost every time.

[Kilbourne]

Carbon D. Metric wrote:

My only thoughts would be that whoever wins initiative will win almost every time.

I agree, especially if that person is A. fast and, B. physical-damage focused. At higher levels, the attacks will hit over AC the majority of the time.

My quick reasoning is that a physical damage class will be able to reliably hit both armored and unarmored opponents, and a caster who wins the initiative has to beware the chance of their opponent saving on their save-or-die spell.

TL;DR -- things with swords will hit other things reliably, things with spells offer their opponents a chance to save versus the spell

I do still believe that in a prepared battle, wherein the combatants have knowledge of one another, the wizard will reliably win against the fighter.

[AvalonXQ]

I ran several "Arena" games for my groups in 3.5, and would love to try this. Typically we gave a number of preparation rounds for buffs, and some random terrain selection.

[ciretose]

AvalonXQ wrote:

I ran several "Arena" games for my groups in 3.5, and would love to try this. Typically we gave a number of preparation rounds for buffs, and some random terrain selection.

Could be set up a number of ways for a number of types of fights. I personally prefer no buffs as it makes casters get creative and levels the field a bit for melee classes.

[ciretose]

Kilbourne wrote:

I do still believe that in a prepared battle, wherein the combatants have knowledge of one another, the wizard will reliably win against the fighter.

Which is why no advance knowledge is key to not overpowering prepared casters.

[wraithstrike]

ciretose wrote:

Kilbourne wrote:

I do still believe that in a prepared battle, wherein the combatants have knowledge of one another, the wizard will reliably win against the fighter.

Which is why no advance knowledge is key to not overpowering prepared casters.

There are still certain spell combinations that are almost autowins, and a melee type can defend against certain combo's, but if he chooses to defend against the wrong one he is in trouble. I know contingency will become really popular for this event.

[Tanis]

Sounds cool. Sign me up.

[Mothman]

This has been done before, although the ones I am thinking of were pre-Pathfinder – I think someone did something similar here using PF rules. Do a forum search for The Fake Arena and/or The Paizonian Coloseum (sic) to see how those were set up, it might give you some ideas.

[Richard Leonhart]

I once did something like that with a friend once (still 3.5), he ended up with a barbarian with a big axe, I was a flying, invisible paladin/sorceror with lots of save or die spells.

It lasted one round ... and character creation was like an hour. Never again for me please

The arena we had was a big cubus with 2 pillars.

[carn]

Richard Leonhart wrote:

I once did something like that with a friend once (still 3.5), he ended up with a barbarian with a big axe, I was a flying, invisible paladin/sorceror with lots of save or die spells.

It lasted one round ... and character creation was like an hour. Never again for me please

The arena we had was a big cubus with 2 pillars.

Who won?

Problem about this arena setting are one shot items. A 4th level wizard has 6000 gold to spend. A lev 17 scroll of summon monster IX cost 3825.
If he can cast, its guaranteed draw, because even if he is slain, 17 rounds are more than enough for any summon monster 9 monster to finish the enemy.

Probably banning them would be sensible, because this is a combat happening only once.

[ciretose]

carn wrote:

Richard Leonhart wrote:

I once did something like that with a friend once (still 3.5), he ended up with a barbarian with a big axe, I was a flying, invisible paladin/sorceror with lots of save or die spells.

It lasted one round ... and character creation was like an hour. Never again for me please

The arena we had was a big cubus with 2 pillars.

Problem about this arena setting are one shot items. A 4th level wizard has 6000 gold to spend. A lev 17 scroll of summon monster IX cost 3825.

If he can cast, its guaranteed draw, because even if he is slain, 17 rounds are more than enough for any summon monster 9 monster to finish the enemy.

Probably banning them would be sensible, because this is a combat happening only once.

But it requires a full round to cast, and that casting can be disrupted if the caster is hit. Not to mention the cast has to survive if he loses initiative to say, a lance wielding Cavalier.

I think this is a good way to see what cheese exists so TPTB can deal with it.

[carn]

ciretose wrote:

But it requires a full round to cast, and that casting can be disrupted if the caster is hit. Not to mention the cast has to survive if he loses initiative to say, a lance wielding Cavalier.

K, then the wizard buys a power word kill scroll or a meteor scroll, whatever, there are dozen of 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells, which are cast with standard action and will end any 4th level duel immediately. Probably there are some 5th level spells, which can be quickened.

And the wizard probably is not a lev 4 wizard, but a lev 1 wizard/ 3 barbarian with arcane armor training light and mitral chain shirt, toughness and mitral buckler and no stats beside dex, con and int on whatever level the decent scroll is.

Item prices are based on the assumption, that one has many combats ahead. Therefore one shot items are a lot cheaper, than items which can be used many time or at will. Thats fine for normal play, but in a single combat this makes many use items far too expensive and one use items far too cheap.

So do not expect any "normal" chars to be successful in duels.

[MordredofFairy]

which is why it's too dependent on setup.

Same for stealth chars.
Does someone with a stealth score get an automated check before combat begins?
Otherwise the sniper rogue starting in a desert 20 feet away from a barbarian looks really bad.

If it's a jungle and they start 150 feet away with optional hide, different story.

Same, basically, goes for ranged and melee.

Or, for that sake, for arena size.
If i have a fleet*3 oracle(fire)(cinder dance) barbarian(fast movement) character, thats 30 ft+15(fleet)+10(cinder dance)+10(barbarian) 65 feet movement at level 3 for a human. Run run run away, pepper him with arrows. Rinse and repeat.

The classes are more less balanced in that in different settings and setups, one will win over the other.
By standardising that, one "type" will always prevail.
By randomising it, you take away preparation.

Also, taking away all buffs is not reasonable for comparison.
Short-time buffs, yeah...but it's entirely reasonable for 1 day/level buffs to be in...
such as an contingency(when i am about to be hit by an attack) triggering(dimension door me maximum range straight up(even if you don't allow feather fall as an inmediate spell, it's enough distance to get off a fly spell the next round before hitting the ground...and thats if you banned overland flight(1 hour/level) from being buffable)) or anything else funny.

Aside from all that, at a certain point, you just have power discrepancy.
That diviner wizard with improved initiative? Yeah. He won init. Now there's a wall of force separating you. Oh yeah, he's buffing. Game over, melee guy.

It won't work properly. It'll be rock paper scissors.
The only way i DO see this work is if same Types face off.

That is, Melee vs. Melee, Ranged vs. Ranged, Magic vs. Magic, etc...and then, classification becomes hard.

[BenignFacist]

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Now, if it was a campaign built around characters inheriting a stable of gladiators and training them, restocking them with fresh meat, equipping them and betting on them...

Yeah, I'd be game!

*shakes fist*

[ciretose]

MordredofFairy wrote:

That is, Melee vs. Melee, Ranged vs. Ranged, Magic vs. Magic, etc...and then, classification becomes hard.

Let me try to nip this in the bud.

It isn't for everyone. It is for specialized characters built specifically for PvP, to see how they compete in PvP. Your halfling rogue will probably not be very good at it.

So, in an effort to stop all "This will beat this" conversation, I would like to actually start some fights and see what happens when you play.

Ground rules

Arenas Options (unless agreed to by partners to be different) above spoilers post which Arena you wish to play in, or describe it. Standard options are as follow.

1. A Rectangular box 50 feet wide 100 feet long, 40 feet high, with each character starting 40 ft apart in the middle of the box.

2. Open field, characters start 100 feet apart.

Also above spoilers post the level and point buy you are using.

Below spoilers post a 5th, 10th, or 15th level character with equipment bought (including potions) based on the core rulebooks level GP system. Feel free to ask for a game at a different level, but I think these should be the "Base" weightclasses, if you will.

If you plan on playing, don't read behind the spoilers (honor system until we get something better)

Once we have two of the same level, someone can volunteer to DM and there you go. DM rolls the dice (or uses dice roller)

Go!

[AvalonXQ]

carn wrote:

Item prices are based on the assumption, that one has many combats ahead.

Then we play "many combats".

Every "Arena" I ran was a round robin tournament. So anyone who spends a significant fraction of their income on a one-shot item got schooled the following duel. It's not a viable strategy.
Round robin tournament, full healing and one day recovery time between duels, with an opportunity to shop (but not craft) between duels, and one encounter's worth of treasure after each combat (a little more for the winner and less for the loser).
You can look for existing games of this sort for possible "battlefield" configurations and rules.

[MordredofFairy]

ciretose wrote:

MordredofFairy wrote:

That is, Melee vs. Melee, Ranged vs. Ranged, Magic vs. Magic, etc...and then, classification becomes hard.

Let me try to nip this in the bud.

It isn't for everyone. It is for specialized characters built specifically for PvP, to see how they compete in PvP. Your halfling rogue will probably not be very good at it.

So, in an effort to stop all "This will beat this" conversation, I would like to actually start some fights and see what happens when you play.

Ground rules

Arenas Options (unless agreed to by partners to be different) above spoilers post which Arena you wish to play in, or describe it. Standard options are as follow.

1. A Rectangular box 50 feet wide 100 feet long, 40 feet high, with each character starting 40 ft apart in the middle of the box.

2. Open field, characters start 100 feet apart.

Also above spoilers post the level and point buy you are using.

Below spoilers post a 5th, 10th, or 15th level character with equipment bought (including potions) based on the core rulebooks level GP system. Feel free to ask for a game at a different level, but I think these should be the "Base" weightclasses, if you will.

If you plan on playing, don't read behind the spoilers (honor system until we get something better)

Once we have two of the same level, someone can volunteer to DM and there you go. DM rolls the dice (or uses dice roller)

Go!

Yep, but the problem is, as mentioned, not about a halfling rogue.

As said, choosing open field. Level 5. Fleet+Fleet+Cinder Dance+Fast Movement+Ranger(Favored Enemy Human).

So Barbarian/Oracle/Ranger 3.
Feats: Fleet, Fleet, Rapid Shot(Combat Style), Deadly Aim, Run.
Favored Terrain: Arena.
Favored Enemy: Human.
(thats 60 ft base speed, 300 ft on a run action)

On a level 10 incarnation, 3 levels of horizon walker(plains) add another Fleet, Far shot and a Distance Weapon.
So 75 ft base speed, 375 ft on run. Half penalty for double range increment and running in medium armor. Yay. Also a use-activated charges-day item of expeditious retreat.
105 ft base speed. 505 ft on run.

On Level 15, some more horizon walker adds immunity to exhaustion and a level of travel cleric another 10 ft.

So 85 ft base speed, 425 ft on run, Immune to exhaustion and fatigue, not slowed by medium armor. -1 to-hit per 220ft distance.

Yeah, this gets silly. Of course, save-or-suck spells are a matter here, but hey...You can fight perfectly nice in an Anti-Magic shell(-1 to hit per 110 ft distance), which, at that level, you can have as a permanent item.
Of course you can have a nice standoff with some wizard with a ring of invisibility and see who falls asleep first and slits the others throat.

Barbarian Rage supplements survivability and Composite Bow Bonus.(Get a wand of bulls strenght(Divine so Oracle can use) for use if Rage runs out) Oracle allows running away and healing if necessary.

Run. Run. Run. Run. Rage+Full Attack. Run. Full Attack. Run. Full Attack.

Any melee-guy willing to try? :P
Even mounted is welcome, i'd guess.

Nah, i'll stay out of this.

[AvalonXQ]

I don't consider that to be a viable build, but if you think it is, try it. See what happens.

[ciretose]

AvalonXQ wrote:

I don't consider that to be a viable build, but if you think it is, try it. See what happens.

My point exactly. Post something and see what happens. Often these threads turn into discussions of hypothetical situations without any real play experience.

Now, if you think you have an unbeatable cheese build, try it out and see if others can beat it.

[c873788]

ciretose wrote:

I don't know if this has been done, but if it hasn't been it should be.

I propose starting a PvP league of sorts.

I think what would be really interesting would be 2 vs 2 characters in an arena setting. All we ever seem to discuss is always the synergies within a particular build. But what would be really interesting is seeing if you could have a powerhouse synergy working between 2 characters and playing that out in a pvp fight club as suggested against other 2 character teams.

I think you would want a big 200 foot wide / 100 foot high arena that has a bit of everything to cater to all classes and their specialties. There could be several open areas, a small wooded area, several 5 foot pillars to hide behind and maybe even a big stream that runs through the middle bridged in a couple of places.

[Ashe]

Core Colosseum was on the D&D boards for a few years, it was only 3.5 SRD allowed. It was fun. I pit-lorded many fights and had a few gladiators. You got assigned a pairing every Wednesday at a set time and then had around 12 hours to look over your competition and submit tactis to the pit-lord. Your character had to be set to ready. Only buffs that were over an hour were permuted to start up. You would fight 3 fights, so over 3 weeks, before you could edit or buy new stuff for your character. A caster added up all spell levels and could not use more than one third for a battle. So if you had 2 3rd, 3 2nd, 4 1st thats 16 spell levels you rounded up so no mre than 6 levels worth a battle, except on the 3rd one you used what you had left. You earned gold and exp for a fight. Again it was fun, would be interesting to see with the new classes

[BenignFacist]

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I'd like to sign up Mr Alzir the Merciful for the level 1 bracket.

He's not optimised but he is very fat..
..and I'd enjoy watching him sweat.

If there's a 3x3 bracket, count him in for that.

RUB HIS BELLY!

..and he has a Toad.

[MordredofFairy]

as said, best of luck to you.

Or rather, enjoyment.

As for viability of the build, it was mainly meant for level 5 and i fail to see exactly where it won't work. It has +4 BaB, good HP, can wear armor, is faster than 95% of other builds...as said, it was custom-build to counter melee.

So yeah, i withdraw that and place instead:

Diviner Wizard(any level).
Improved Init. Lvl1
Silent Spell. Lvl1
Conjuration Focus. Lvl3
Augment Summoning. Lvl5
Extend Spell. Lvl7
Range Spell. Lvl9

Max Skill Ranks in Perception, Stealth, Spellcraft.

Valid for Level 5
Opening: Invisibility, move.
Rounds after: summon, buff summons.

Valid for Level 10,15,20
Opening: Greater invisibilty, move.
2nd and 3rd round: Range-increased Ray of Exhaustion, move.
Rounds after: summon, buff summons.

Circumstancial for both: If enemy has means of sniffing you out, use a turn to cast fly and take off.

Circumstancial for caster-enemys: Don't buff summons. Ready action against "If he starts casting a spell" using some simple damage spell to force a spellcraft-check.

Items:
Level 5: Includes a wand of summon monster II, in case you run out of summons.(Summon Monster I if the II is too expensive for a single item)

Level 10: Includes a ring of invisibility, just for fun.
Oh, and a ring of counterspells(glitterdust).

Nah, really, as much fun as this would be, i predict that builds be pretty "efficient" and 80% of fights totally one-sided.

As you said, no place for a "halfling rogue" here, so the number of builds viable IS limited. But in that instant, "specialization" is encouraged. And that means stuff the build is optimized against will be pretty helpless.

Heck, i can't really see any build beat a diviner wizard level 20. My turn. Timestop. Your turn. Around you are 7 buffed Tyrannosaurs(Empowered, Maximized(Rod) Summon Monster VII) with 20 feet Reach, i am fully buffed, and beginning next turn, the tyrannosaurs will be, too(they are pretty nasty, hasted...12 attacks(assuming you kill 1 with the slightly less than 200 HP they have) for 4d6+26/19–20 plus grab, and flanking) -_-

anyway. Have fun. Really. I know i sound bitter, but i'll be very happy to have my utter disbelief in the workability of this crushed. I would LIKE it to work. I just can't SEE it work. If you manage to MAKE it work, my hat is off to you, sire.

[Waylorn]

I would be interested in something like this ran on a VTT like maptools. One person to act as "ref" and fight it out.

[AvalonXQ]

MordredofFairy wrote:

So yeah, i withdraw that and place instead:

That's actually the build I was thinking of -- summoning wizard with invisibility.

Again, though, you can brag all day about how awesome/unbeatable your build is. Anyone can do that. I'm sure it makes you feel very smug. Prove it by running it and seeing what happens. In my experience there are several good builds with good gimmicks and none of them is a lock.