I have been tinkering with the idea of a low magic campaign, however, I don't want to prevent pc's from choosing magical classes, and I don't want to have to change any of the classes either. So after thinking and looking at some material from all over the place, I came up with a template/condition to add to the spell casting system that might help with keeping mages in line of power with non-magic users without debilitating them.
The idea is pretty simple. Whenever you cast a spell, there is something like a "cooldown time" before you can "safely cast a spell again." This is called the spell haze. The haze lasts longer depending on the level of the spell. If you do cast during a spell haze, you take non-lethal damage equal to the spell level of the spell you cast.
So, for example, if you cast a 1st level spell, for 1 round after you are under a spell haze. If you cast a 5th level spell, you are under the spell haze for 5 rounds. If you cast a 1st level spell during one of these hazes, you take 1 NL damage, and if you cast a 5th level spell during a haze, it deals 5 NL damage.
If you are under more than one spell haze, you simply use the longer of the two hazes at the time of the casting, they don't "stack". If you cast a 5th level spell the round after casting a 7th level spell, you use the remaining 6 rounds of the 7th level's haze. Instead, if you cast the 5th level spell 4 rounds later, you would use the 5th levels haze since it would run longer.
Spells that take shorter time to cast do not effect other castings of spells that round, but add to the total duration of the haze. For example, a quickened 1st level spell cast in the same round as a 6th level spell would not cause any spell haze damage, but the haze would last 11 rounds.
Another idea is using spell levels -1 or -2 using the above rules, thus making 1st or 2nd level spells unaffected by spell haze rules. Another idea is to go with dice durations and/or damage, such as: 1, 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 1d10, 1d12, 2d6.
Taking the idea further, Spell haze can be a "condition" like sickened and such, allowing other ways to give spell haze to targets, making spell casting hurt them.
Spell-like abilities would work the same way as above, and casting from different spell casting classes through multiclassing doesn't matter with this system.
Thoughts?
My gut reaction is "Too complicated, time for KISS." Have you thought of simply making the magic using classes prestige classes? Or limiting the magic using classes to ones like bard that don't a full 9 levels of spells?
The biggest problem I see with this is that magic user are already designed to be balanced against the other class. I know some people whine that they aren't, but I think that's pretty much BS. PF and even 3.5 did a good job of blancing the two. If you go with this you have to keep in mind that magic users are taking a power cut but other classes aren't.
However if you really do want to go with this method....first off don't go random. That can be really tricky because they may get lucky and fire off spells left and right, or they might take FOREVER to get to cast another spell.
Also do you want the spell haze to be a major problem, significant deterrent or minor nuisance? Right now you are in the minor nuisance category. At 1 point if non-lethal per spell level, that wouldn't keep most of my magic users from throwing spells every round. At first level 1 extra point of damage isn't going to be that big a deal if it ends the fight sooner. I'd probably take less damage over all if I cast an effective spell. At 20th level 9 points of non-lethal is chump change. If the monster hits me it'll probably do a couple of times that. Hell if I'm a cleric why would I care at all? My healing magic will take care of the piddling little non-lethal without reducing the amount of real damage I heal at all. As is it is an annoyance factor that to me would make the game less fun without actually meaning anything.
If you want it to be a significant deterrent at a minimum make it lethal damage. I'd also recommend make it double the spell level. If you want to make a really major problem I'd go with even more damage.
Interesting idea, but I agree it's too complicated.
One thought I've had for low-magic is to require all spellcasters to be multiclassed with the limitation that the total levels of spellcasting classes cannot exceed those of non-spellcasting classes. So, for example, you could be a rogue 2/wizard 2 or a rogue 2/cleric 1/wizard 1, but not a rogue 2/wizard 3.
Mark L. Chance | Spes Magna Games
Interesting idea, but I agree it's too complicated.
One thought I've had for low-magic is to require all spellcasters to be multiclassed with the limitation that the total levels of spellcasting classes cannot exceed those of non-spellcasting classes. So, for example, you could be a rogue 2/wizard 2 or a rogue 2/cleric 1/wizard 1, but not a rogue 2/wizard 3.
Mark L. Chance | Spes Magna Games
That's a good possibility, especially if you go back to the 3.5 Unearthed Arcana. They had a chart that for non spell casting classes granting a bonus to caster level. This way they maintain a decent caster level, but don't get very high level spells.
My gut reaction is "Too complicated, time for KISS." Have you thought of simply making the magic using classes prestige classes? Or limiting the magic using classes to ones like bard that don't a full 9 levels of spells?
The biggest problem I see with this is that magic user are already designed to be balanced against the other class. I know some people whine that they aren't, but I think that's pretty much BS. PF and even 3.5 did a good job of blancing the two. If you go with this you have to keep in mind that magic users are taking a power cut but other classes aren't.
However if you really do want to go with this method....first off don't go random. That can be really tricky because they may get lucky and fire off spells left and right, or they might take FOREVER to get to cast another spell.
Also do you want the spell haze to be a major problem, significant deterrent or minor nuisance? Right now you are in the minor nuisance category. At 1 point if non-lethal per spell level, that wouldn't keep most of my magic users from throwing spells every round. At first level 1 extra point of damage isn't going to be that big a deal if it ends the fight sooner. I'd probably take less damage over all if I cast an effective spell. At 20th level 9 points of non-lethal is chump change. If the monster hits me it'll probably do a couple of times that. Hell if I'm a cleric why would I care at all? My healing magic will take care of the piddling little non-lethal without reducing the amount of real damage I heal at all. As is it is an annoyance factor that to me would make the game less fun without actually meaning anything.
If you want it to be a significant deterrent at a minimum make it lethal damage. I'd also recommend make it double the spell level. If you want to make a really major problem I'd go with even more damage.
Hmm, maybe I did a bad job at explaining, but I thought it was pretty simple idea. At least more simple than altering classes as prestige classes or changing to max 6th level spells, but that is a thought too. I 100% agree with you about the class balance, but I'm not too sure how that holds up in a game with none to little magic items. Do you think the higher level martial classes would hold up with higher level magic user classes when you pull magic items out of the question?
I agree that non-lethal damage seems minor, I think it could have a pretty big affect. If a spell caster has already taken damage and needs to cast a spell, the nl could cause him to fall unconscious. Even if it can be doubly healed with healing, it makes combat healing a much more viable option on the cleric, whom then gets spell haze too (or causes him to take damage). I think it might be a bit more of a problem then you give credit for, but i have not play tested the idea yet though. I want the spell caster to think twice about casting spells. anything more would be too much. The double damage is a thought too. Thanks for the input. If you think of anything more please let me know. The more critique the better. :)
Under the haze rules as I read them, the caster is hazed for a number of rounds equal to spell level. That means by mid-levels, the caster will be in a haze for the entire combat if he casts a spell at the outset. Now, that means he might take nonlethal damage if he engages in regular spellcasting. Potential effects:
1) If possible, casters will rely more on staves, wands, and other magic items, if they're available. Since this is a low-magic world, probably not.
2) Combat casters (clerics, druids, paladins, some rangers, and gish types) are penalized by not being able to throw spells in combat because the potential of being knocked out is too great. A few points of nonlethal damage could make the difference in a tough fight, particularly for melee clerics and for gish.
3) Sorcerers and wizards will be using their at-will abilities and crossbows a lot, as at low levels they can't throw many spells anyway but at mid-levels the haze will make them careful to avoid knocking themselves out. This might not be too big a deal if the party still protects casters from punishment.
4) Does this apply to supernatural abilities? Wands? Staves? Other magic items?
5) You suggest this makes combat healing more viable for a cleric, but if the cleric gets haze removing the haze of another caster, then the cleric is in trouble because he can't heal anyone else while the haze persists, unless he wants damage as well. If the cleric likes to be in melee, that could be really bad, really fast.
Good question about the class balance in absence of items. Personally I would say that the balance is pretty well maintained as I believe that all classes benefit just as much from properly selected items.
If you are that worried by it two simple solutions is either what Spes Magna Mark suggested or if you check back a bit in the threads here I was looking for some feedback on one of my ideas for a low magic game. Basically I plan to allow non-magical +1, +2, etc. weapons and armor. I think this would definitely make things balance better if you are worried.
And don't get the idea that I hate your idea. I think it is a little more complicated than I would feel like implementing (at the moment), but it is interesting and well written. Other than changing the damage, I do have one or two other points.
I would suggest that regardless of casting time have them take damage from it. It makes quickened spells (already quite powerful) even more powerful for a spellcaster. It also brings up the question of when they take damage. For example if I cast a spell that is a full round action, do I take the spell haze damage this turn or next turn. If it's next turn then if I start casting the full round spell on the last turn of spell haze do I take damage at all?
You also have the question of how do metamagic feats affect the damage? I would assume it's based off the level of the slot it takes up, but the quicken example might suggest to a player that that isn't the case.
One thing to make it more disruptive but not require upping the damage is to have the damage have the potential to disrupt spell casting just like getting attacked. That way they always have to make a concentration check to cast under the spell haze.
You also might want to think of what spells it would be a good idea to limit or remove. Magic weapon seems like it might defeat the idea of having few if any magical items. Also anything that can magically boost AC could make a HUGE difference in a setting like that.
The idea kinda spawned from the recharge magic rules from the unearthed arcana. But I don't like the idea of a spell caster not being able to cast spells at all during the recharge time. If I were to implement this spell haze rule, I would do it as if the spell levels were 2 lower, so that 1st and 2nd level spells would not trigger haze, or deal damage.
A few other ideas I had:
-Casting a 4th level spell or higher automatically deals NL damage -3, but the damage goes away at 1 point a rd. Additional damage from casting high spells does not add on, you keep the higher damage as it counts back down.
-Casting a 4th level spell or higher has a recharge time in which you must wait to recast the same level spell. the time in rounds the caster must wait is as follows: 4th = 1, 5th = 1d2, 6th = 1d3, 7th = 1d4, 8th = 1d6, 9th = 1d8.
-Casting a 4th level spell or higher has a recharge time in which casting the same level of spell requires a concentration check as if casting defensively. The recharge time in rounds is as follows: 4th = 1, 5th = 1d2, 6th = 1d3, 7th = 1d4, 8th = 1d6, 9th = 1d8.
-Using the haze rules above, except no nl damage, and instead spellcasting requires a concentration check equal to 10+double the spell level.
-As the admiral said, could use 6th level spells max, and increase the amount of spells in these lower levels, not sure how i would do that yet though.
-Could do the half character level restriction as Mark suggested, but I would hate to force multiclassing if someone wanted to be a straight spell caster.
Still very early in the works on this campaign, and I am not married to the idea of using spell haze yet, but if people have more critiqes or suggestions on the system, any of these other ideas, or running a low magic campaign in general, I'm all ears.
Thanks guys for the input so far, I diffidently don't want to implement the system if it would make the class unplayable (or scare the player's away from it)
Under the haze rules as I read them, the caster is hazed for a number of rounds equal to spell level. That means by mid-levels, the caster will be in a haze for the entire combat if he casts a spell at the outset. Now, that means he might take nonlethal damage if he engages in regular spellcasting. Potential effects:
1) If possible, casters will rely more on staves, wands, and other magic items, if they're available. Since this is a low-magic world, probably not.
2) Combat casters (clerics, druids, paladins, some rangers, and gish types) are penalized by not being able to throw spells in combat because the potential of being knocked out is too great. A few points of nonlethal damage could make the difference in a tough fight, particularly for melee clerics and for gish.
3) Sorcerers and wizards will be using their at-will abilities and crossbows a lot, as at low levels they can't throw many spells anyway but at mid-levels the haze will make them careful to avoid knocking themselves out. This might not be too big a deal if the party still protects casters from punishment.
4) Does this apply to supernatural abilities? Wands? Staves? Other magic items?
5) You suggest this makes combat healing more viable for a cleric, but if the cleric gets haze removing the haze of another caster, then the cleric is in trouble because he can't heal anyone else while the haze persists, unless he wants damage as well. If the cleric likes to be in melee, that could be really bad, really fast.
1)The plan is that magic items will not be available. Now, If the wizard characters create them, that is a different story.
2)I agree totally. They do have better options during their spell haze though, since they are better fighters than a Sorc/Wizard.
3) This is one of the reasons I made the haze rule, (assuming you use it at -1 or -2 spell level) this gives more reason to cast lower level spells and to only use higher level spells when they have too.
4) No
5) You make a very good point here. Damage is not good for the divine casters, and bards.
Thanks for your input so far.
Good question about the class balance in absence of items. Personally I would say that the balance is pretty well maintained as I believe that all classes benefit just as much from properly selected items.
If you are that worried by it two simple solutions is either what Spes Magna Mark suggested or if you check back a bit in the threads here I was looking for some feedback on one of my ideas for a low magic game. Basically I plan to allow non-magical +1, +2, etc. weapons and armor. I think this would definitely make things balance better if you are worried.
And don't get the idea that I hate your idea. I think it is a little more complicated than I would feel like implementing (at the moment), but it is interesting and well written. Other than changing the damage, I do have one or two other points.
I would suggest that regardless of casting time have them take damage from it. It makes quickened spells (already quite powerful) even more powerful for a spellcaster. It also brings up the question of when they take damage. For example if I cast a spell that is a full round action, do I take the spell haze damage this turn or next turn. If it's next turn then if I start casting the full round spell on the last turn of spell haze do I take damage at all?
You also have the question of how do metamagic feats affect the damage? I would assume it's based off the level of the slot it takes up, but the quicken example might suggest to a player that that isn't the case.
One thing to make it more disruptive but not require upping the damage is to have the damage have the potential to disrupt spell casting just like getting attacked. That way they always have to make a concentration check to cast under the spell haze.
You also might want to think of what spells it would be a good idea to limit or remove. Magic weapon seems like it might defeat the idea of having few if any magical items. Also anything that can magically boost AC could make a HUGE difference in a setting like that.
You do take damage from meta magic feat spells, using the improved level. I like the idea of adding the rnds together, or if that is too much, the higher level of the two spells would determine the rounds. spell haze does not start until after the turn is over. As for longer spell casting times, as long as the spell casting ends outside of the haze, you are damage free.
If I made the caster make a concentration check, I would not do the damage. I just wanted to make the spell caster have to refresh his mind before being 100% to go. If I make it too painful, then I know I wouldn't play a wizard in the game.
I will think about limiting certain spells, but I would hate to take too much away, if anything.
Thanks for the input so far.