Beast Shape absolute and not based on size, right?

[MordredofFairy]

This just because it game up in a game recently, i know there has been threads, but i'd like to have a clarified answer for my player.

The Beast Size spell do NOT work on a "per-size" basis, but absolute.

So a Huge Creature casting Beast shape 1 still gets the chance to go medium or small creature.
It's not "same size creature or 1 size smaller".

The situation was this::

The high level party(especially said character) seriously offended a cloud giant NPC with wizard levels(keeping in lore that they should take the path of arcane or divine caster, despite 12 int/cha as base).

As they are on the same team, nothing more happened at that time.

Now, the cloud giant decided to get a message across to the offending character and "beast shape 2"'d via a scroll, into a house cat near the inn the characters were staying at. He scratched on the window with a little note in it's mouth, the char opened the window and lifted up the kitty, which proceeded to jump into his face(dropping the note).

Bite in the surprise round and full attack after winning initiative for
2 claws +23 (1d2+11), bite +23 (1d3+11), followed by a 5 foot step out of the window, running off into the woods.

Now, the intent was not to kill or maim the char, and he survived quite easily, it was just a way to say "Mess with me again and you'll regret that" which was also written on the note, signed by the giant.

The player of the char with scratchmarks in his face later wanted to learn how this tiny cat could do that damage, when i revealed how, he got all, lets say, bitter, and accussed me that the polymorph spells as written are clearly supposed to be for medium casters and the written intent is that different-sized casters use their own base size to deduct which sizes give which boni.

While from a logical standpoint, i'd even agree, from a balance standpoint, i don't. I'd much prefer a huge creature getting +6 size bonus to your Strength, a -4 penalty to your Dexterity, and a +6 natural armor bonus from beastshaping into a huge creature, than the same boni from becoming a collosal one.

The player does know better than to doubt DM calls beyond a certain extent as he himself is DM'ing(incidently also a round i play in), so it's not likely it causes any problems, but still i'd like to get this cleared up so he doesn't feel like i "cheated" him.

Also please don't "judge" the action in itself, i assure you, in the given game context, it made perfect sense since it had to do with the earlier offense.

[Carbon D. Metric]

Yes, as per the RAW, you turn into a creature that is either medium, or small. Those are your options and it is not affected by whatever your current size is.

[Matthew Morris]

*nods* Same goes for most all of the Polymorph spells IIRC. Colossal Red Dragon uses Alter Self, becomes medium or small sized halfling.
Personally, I find the image of a 'housecat' that has a decent chance of punching through a door (let alone a PC) funny as hell.

[Stubs McKenzie]

core rulebook wrote:

If a polymorph spell is cast on a creature that is smaller than Small or larger than Medium, first adjust its ability scores to one of these two sizes using the following table before applying the bonuses granted by the polymorph spell.

Creature’s Adjusted
Original Size / Str / Dex / Con / Size
Fine ........ / +6 / –6 / — / Small
Diminutive... / +6 / –4 / — / Small
Tiny......... / +4 / –2 / — / Small
Large........ / –4 / +2 / –2 / Medium
Huge......... / –8 / +4 / –4 / Medium
Gargantuan... / –12 / +4 / –6 / Medium
Colossal..... / –16 / +4 / –8 / Medium

Your cloud giant's strength would have dropped from a 35 to a 27 before adding modifiers in for beast shape 2, tiny creature, which takes his str to a 25

damage should have been 1d2+7 if all stats were cloud giant base. This table is found under the polymorph school description.

[udalrich]

Did you remember to include these modifications from the Transformation school? Like Stubs said?

[AvalonXQ]

Stubs nailed it: your giant wizard gets substantially weaker when he polymorphs into a cat.

[mdt]

I'm personally intending to houserule it in my game to be based of size. I don't think it will break anything, and it would make much more sense to me that way.

Again, a house rule.

[Happler]

mdt wrote:

I'm personally intending to houserule it in my game to be based of size. I don't think it will break anything, and it would make much more sense to me that way.

Again, a house rule.

So, an 8th level Halfling Druid cannot change into a Hugh animal, only a large one, but can change into a fine creature (one size below diminutive )?

I would be careful of adjusting magic based on the casters size. this can be a slippery slope. You might end up with the Enlarge person, antimagic field (now covering more space), return to normal size with a 20' antimagic field trick. Or causing said Halfling to try to have enlarge person cast on itself so that it can then wildshape into a size H animal.

Also, would this mean that a Baleful Polymorph spell would not be able to convert anything greater then size M into a size S squirrel?

[mdt]

Happler wrote:

mdt wrote:

I'm personally intending to houserule it in my game to be based of size. I don't think it will break anything, and it would make much more sense to me that way.

Again, a house rule.

So, an 8th level Halfling Druid cannot change into a Hugh animal, only a large one, but can change into a fine creature (one size below diminutive )?

I would be careful of adjusting magic based on the casters size. this can be a slippery slope. You might end up with the Enlarge person, antimagic field (now covering more space), return to normal size with a 20' antimagic field trick. Or causing said Halfling to try to have enlarge person cast on itself so that it can then wildshape into a size H animal.

Also, would this mean that a Baleful Polymorph spell would not be able to convert anything greater then size M into a size S squirrel?

I love how a one line statement get's disected in detail. :)

However, to answer your questions....

A) I have been thinking about this awhile.
B) Yes, halfling wouldn't hit huge, but could hit diminutive (that can be just as advantageous as turning huge).
C) No idea what you are talking about with anti-magic field and enlarge person. Enlarge person stops working in an anti-magic field. Regardless of polymorphed size, entering the anti-magic field would make the spell fail.
D) No different than a halfling under the current rules changing into a huge animal at 8th level and then having enlarge cast on their animal form. Not sure why you'd think that would change.
E) Baleful polymorph would stay the same, it would turn the target into a small or smaller creature of less than 1 HD.

[Happler]

mdt wrote:

Happler wrote:

mdt wrote:

I'm personally intending to houserule it in my game to be based of size. I don't think it will break anything, and it would make much more sense to me that way.

Again, a house rule.

So, an 8th level Halfling Druid cannot change into a Hugh animal, only a large one, but can change into a fine creature (one size below diminutive )?

I would be careful of adjusting magic based on the casters size. this can be a slippery slope. You might end up with the Enlarge person, antimagic field (now covering more space), return to normal size with a 20' antimagic field trick. Or causing said Halfling to try to have enlarge person cast on itself so that it can then wildshape into a size H animal.

Also, would this mean that a Baleful Polymorph spell would not be able to convert anything greater then size M into a size S squirrel?

I love how a one line statement get's disected in detail. :)

However, to answer your questions....

A) I have been thinking about this awhile.
B) Yes, halfling wouldn't hit huge, but could hit diminutive (that can be just as advantageous as turning huge).
C) No idea what you are talking about with anti-magic field and enlarge person. Enlarge person stops working in an anti-magic field. Regardless of polymorphed size, entering the anti-magic field would make the spell fail.
D) No different than a halfling under the current rules changing into a huge animal at 8th level and then having enlarge cast on their animal form. Not sure why you'd think that would change.
E) Baleful polymorph would stay the same, it would turn the target into a small or smaller creature of less than 1 HD.

Was just curious on how you would handle all the other Polymorph and spell size related things. Your comment just happen to fall right after a long discussion I had with another on this same thing so it was fresh in my head. No offense intended. :P

As for the anti-magic field: When I GM I try to keep things as consistant as possible for ease of sanity. When you change one type of magic to be different in relation to character size, it leaves a loophole for players to question why other types of magic do not adjust for size. Something like anti-magic field, which is RAI to cover a size M creature and extend out 10' (an area of 12 sqrs) would then cover a size L creature + 10' (an area of 24 sqrs spprox). So the following could happen:

Cast Enlarge person and become size L
Cast anti-magic field, have it cover the larger area
which then ends Enlarge person reducing you back to size M, but have a size L anti-magic field.

So, rather then have a load of exceptions to the rules for x or y, I try to follow them as close as I can.

Also, baneful polymorph runs as beast shape III, so if you are adjusting the spell based on size, then this one would also be adjusted based on size.

So, in your world a halfling druid could never become a size H animal or elemental, but could become a size fine animal or a tiny elemental?

A blasting style druid would do good to be a size S race to start, so that they could become a fine animal with natural spell for the +16 stealth, and +8 to AC and to-hit, along with the at least +6 for dex, since the spell only states bonus down to diminutive sized animals)

It is a houserule that may cause more grief then good, at least with my group of players.

[mdt]

Anti-magic spell has a specific area. It's a 10 foot radius. If a creature that takes up 9x9 spaces casts it, he has to pick a space in the area he takes up and that's the center and it eminates out from there. The fact he's larger than medium doesn't increase the area of the spell. If it did, a huge creature could affect more than ten feet radius around a square.

As to baleful polymorph, it already has a load of exceptions in it. It can be cast on unwilling targets, it takes away their ability to cast spells, etc. There's no reason why 'small or smaller' wouldn't just be part of that exception list.

Yep, I have no problem with a halfling never being able to be huge, but in exchange being able to be fine/diminutive. As to the diminutive, remember, an area effect spell still works and you lose an awful lot as a diminutive creature. You get good at stealth, but attacking is making yourself a fragile target.