How would it sell ? Poorly.That's certainly the conventional wisdom.
Also conventional wisdom: Adventures don't sell well.
Is epic level play a niche market because no one's interested? Or because there was barely any support of that kind of play beyond the core book? Hard to say.
I'd be down for some epic rules.
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I can only say for myself that high level gaming can get tedious as well as strenuous. I have played in a campaign that went to level 21 with Maure Castle in 3.5, and as a GM, I have had a Shackled City campaign up to level 19 on 3.5, and I currently have a Savage Tide campaign at level 16 and a Rise of the Runelords campaign at level 15, both Pathfinder RPG. I have fun on both of these campaigns, but nevertheless, honestly, I'll be happy when I'm through with them.
Epic level play (i.e. beyond level 20) just scares me.
+1 Zaister. I'm afraid.
How would it sell ? Poorly.That's certainly the conventional wisdom.
Also conventional wisdom: Adventures don't sell well.
Is epic level play a niche market because no one's interested? Or because there was barely any support of that kind of play beyond the core book? Hard to say.
That's what I've been saying.
Consider something else, even beyond the success of Paizo's Adventure Paths - remember The Dragon and Dungeon back before Paizo took them over? Remember how sales were flagging and that's why the rights were sold to Paizo? Remember what happened to The Dragon, Dungeon, and D&D after that? I do.
I can only say for myself that high level gaming can get tedious as well as strenuous. I have played in a campaign that went to level 21 with Maure Castle in 3.5, and as a GM, I have had a Shackled City campaign up to level 19 on 3.5, and I currently have a Savage Tide campaign at level 16 and a Rise of the Runelords campaign at level 15, both Pathfinder RPG. I have fun on both of these campaigns, but nevertheless, honestly, I'll be happy when I'm through with them.
Epic level play (i.e. beyond level 20) just scares me.
I've been running a campaign since 2006 that features the same characters who started at level 6. They're now in the level 50-60 range. Both I and the players enjoy the game immensely. Sure, it gets tedious at times - but so does a uber-low level investigative game when the characters are stymied and the players are frustrated. That's happened to me a number of times, and typically the response is not "aw man, low level play sucks! We should play at a higher level!"
Every game is about pacing. At the last game, I hand-waved a day-long cat-and-mouse battle between two epic banshees and the party because none of us felt the need to play it out - we knew how it would turn out, we knew it would be difficult but winnable, and it was time for the plot to move on so they could deal with ... well ...
I run epic games at conventions once or twice a year. I've never had anyone say "man, that was tedious," though it's certainly possible they kept it to themself. I have had a number of people say "man, I've always heard that epic play was stupid! This was fun!"
Yes, it's work. Yes, you do have to plan a lot better - for example, the amount of work in a sandbox epic campaign would be insane - but done the right way, it's fun, challenging, rewarding and has plotlines that are truly epic in nature.
Note that I wasn't saying "Epic play sucks!" or something like that. I'm certain that it's possible to have fun with it. It's just my own feeling.
The one time we dipped into epic territory, I had the feeling that my character (a gnome beguiler/shadowcraft mage) had been tricked out for several levels, and that higher levels would just mean more of the same; so I was OK with it when we ended the campaign there.
As a GM, I know that high level characters can take a lot of time on their turn during combat, for example until seven attacks have all been rolled, possibly involving combat maneuvers and secondary effects, or a character being able to run across the field, delivering multiple attacks with improved spring attacks, or casting a spell as a swift action and another one as a standard action and dealing with the ongoing effects of various previously cast spells, or just adding up oodles of buffs currently in effect, and so on. All of that can mean that it can take 10 minutes or more until a player gets to act again, and the rest of the time they don't really have much to do, and that isn't fun. Many sessions have passed where all we accomplished was one single encounter, and that can make adventures take forever.
Anyway, that's just my experience, and I'm sure other players and GMs have other kinds of experiences. Personally I really like low-level play a lot.
Anyway, that's just my experience, and I'm sure other players and GMs have other kinds of experiences. Personally I really like low-level play a lot.
My experiences have been pretty much the same. If Paizo does do epic level, I hope they find a way to simplify it.
So far, paizo seems to have found a way to turn nearly everything into gold, so if I would trust anyone to handle epic-level with competence, it would be paizo. I probably don´t need epic level, though - presently, I don´t even have a regular game running (in the same vein, I am not sure about advanced players or the ultimate books - I fear paizo is slowly spreading out too far). But then, reading is fun as well.
With APs, I´m all for experimental, and especially non-(or at least less)dungeon APs. The idea of a "social" AP in Taldor sounds nice, but is difficult, as these things are by their very nature quite open and difficult to plan ahead. While I can understand the claims for even more exotic or even planar APs, I see why paizo wants to stick to their just barely developed area of the Inner Sea (and neighboring continents) - it is a lot of work to develop background stuff, and spreading out ever further means more background needs to be developed (and, of course, less space for home games, at least with canon nerds such as me).
Stefan
As someone who has ZERO interest in oriental-based gameplay, I'm debating whether to cancel my AP subscription when 'Jade' comes up or just ride it through.
Some word that DWARVES are on tap for a long over-due AP would certainly sway me towards staying.
So, more dwarves!!
Bob B.
GO STEELERS!!!!
Here how you handle the "I hate Oriental Campaigns" people.
I'm not sure it's the right way to treat your players to "force" them to play a campaign they don't have an interest in.
Here how you handle the "I hate Oriental Campaigns" people.
Have an Occidental (i.e western) based party somehow transported to the Orient so they can't easy get back (shipwreck, airship blown off course, long distance teleport gone awry).you'll character that you now how to run and you'll learn as you go about this new "world," part of which will be making mistakes. Like the Shogun mini-series
They'll have to deal with things like honor, face, new cultures etc. and they'll also have the opportunity to gain levels in new classes.
By the end they will be able to come home, if they want, to tell their tales.
Reminds me of college. There was an RPG club, and me and a couple buddies went to check it out on the first day. There was no open slots at the D&D tables (or we were newbies and the old guard didn't want to deal with us - probably some combination of both), so the only option for us was some guy who had been dying for ages to run a Bushido game. Which we proceeded to try to play as if it were D&D.
By the end of the evening, everyone was pretty frustrated :)
I'm hoping for a mega-dungeon based adventure path, like was brought up sometime ago. Also, maybe something involving Numeria.
...maybe something involving Numeria.
+1!
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I recall reading somewhere that Nex and Geb would be getting their due eventually. Also, iirc, that they were Erik Mona's babies.
Considering that these two countries are just oozing with potential, an AP set there is my guess. It would also allow Paizo to throw in Mana Waste/Alkenstar content, which many people have been clamoring for.
I'd really love to see more on Nex and Geb! Maybe an AP where you could play spies for either side, and the outcome would depend on your missions. It'd be kind of like the Faction missions in the Pathfinder Society Scenarios.
Plus, Erik Mona is just awesome, so if he writes any of it I'm DEFINITELY buying it!
As for what could make this "experimental"? I have no idea. It's not the setting that makes something innovative, so much as the story itself. You could easily make an incredibly experimental AP set in backwater Andoran, or a classic and traditional AP in Numeria/Geb/the moon/wherever.
I completely agree! It's what the PCs are asked to do, and their mechanics for doing it, that makes an AP innovative. For example, the Kingmaker AP's kingdom-building is pretty innovative.
Creative Director
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Well... Jade Regent is itself quite experimental... and not only because it globetrots. It's also got a LOT more NPC interaction in the storyline than anything we've done before.
Which means that what's coming AFTER Jade Regent won't be that experimental at all. It WILL be bad-ass though.
hm, what about an AP in Alkenstar and the Mana Wastes, concerning a return of Nex?
+1
It would be interesting to play an AP that goes into a dead magic realm. And you know you'll be encountering gunslingers in this region.
Which means that what's coming AFTER Jade Regent won't be that experimental at all. It WILL be bad-ass though.
C'mon, it's time for the megadungeon!
Just for people to recap:
What I've got planned after Jade Regent is, perhaps, the most experimental topic for an AP we've done yet.
Well... Jade Regent is itself quite experimental... and not only because it globetrots. It's also got a LOT more NPC interaction in the storyline than anything we've done before.
Which means that what's coming AFTER Jade Regent won't be that experimental at all. It WILL be bad-ass though.
He's messing with you!
...I think Paizo have shown sufficiently that what makes an "experimental" adventure path has little to do with location. I don't really think a planar location is particularly more exotic than the many crazy regions on Golarion.
C'mon, it's time for the megadungeon!
Megadungeon sounds boring, and it strains my suspension of disbelief. Why would such a thing reasonably exist?
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Creative Director
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hm, what about an AP in Alkenstar and the Mana Wastes, concerning a return of Nex?+1
It would be interesting to play an AP that goes into a dead magic realm. And you know you'll be encountering gunslingers in this region.
A few things about that:
1) I'm not really interested in setting an AP in a region where 2/3 of our class options are hobbled or crippled.
2) I'm not yet sure that gunslingers are going to play a significant role at all in Golarion. In fact, I suspect they WON'T. Just because it's in a rulebook doesn't mean it's going to be in Golarion. We'll still SUPPORT those rulebooks, but some of the stuff we put in rulebooks is more intended to support the game as a whole rather than just Golarion. The Pathfinder RPG is more than just Golarion.
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Creative Director
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Just for people to recap:
What I've got planned after Jade Regent is, perhaps, the most experimental topic for an AP we've done yet.Well... Jade Regent is itself quite experimental... and not only because it globetrots. It's also got a LOT more NPC interaction in the storyline than anything we've done before.
Which means that what's coming AFTER Jade Regent won't be that experimental at all. It WILL be bad-ass though.
He's messing with you!
...I think Paizo have shown sufficiently that what makes an "experimental" adventure path has little to do with location. I don't really think a planar location is particularly more exotic than the many crazy regions on Golarion.
Actually, what you're seeing there is basically what happens when the Publisher says, "Guys, Jade Regent is pretty experimental... that thing you have planned for the next AP? It's WAY too experimental. We have to follow Jade Regent up with something less crazy."
Which was kinda disappointing, but in the end that just means that we have that much longer to get that particular unannounced AP even more "right!"
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Creative Director
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C'mon, it's time for the megadungeon!Megadungeon sounds boring, and it strains my suspension of disbelief. Why would such a thing reasonably exist?
Because megadungeons have been in the game longer than anything else, for one.
And because I as the Creative Director would be intrigued by the challenge of making a megadungeon AP work in a way that doesn't get boring in, say, the same way that Temple of Elemental Evil can get boring. There needs to be a lot more going on in a giant dungeon than just room after room of stuff.
The Maure Castle levels we did in Dungeon are sort of a megadungeon AP... we'd probably use the way we set those up as an initial draft.
Just for people to recap:
...stuff...
Actually, what you're seeing there is basically what happens when the Publisher says, "Guys, Jade Regent is pretty experimental... that thing you have planned for the next AP? It's WAY too experimental. We have to follow Jade Regent up with something less crazy."
Which was kinda disappointing, but in the end that just means that we have that much longer to get that particular unannounced AP even more "right!"
They can do that? Who do these publishers think they are?
...when they say Jade Regent is pretty experimental, I think that also means that you can follow it up with something similarly experimental.
I can't wrap my head around a planned AP that is sooo experimental that it needs more time in the brooding chamber. I mean, how hard did you have to fight to push Kingmaker through the starting line? That was pretty experimental right there.
I hope the Bad Ass(tm) AP will revolve around the Worldwound - there's a really imminent amount of potential brimming just underneath the collective consciousness.
My guess at the too experimental AP would have to be one set in Numeria. I am guessing barbarians and robots might, just might be a bit experimental. ;). And if it is I can't wait.
How about an adventure set in the Hold of Belkzen? The PCs are all from monstrous races like Orc, Ogre, Goblin, etc...
How about an adventure set in the Hold of Belkzen? The PCs are all from monstrous races like Orc, Ogre, Goblin, etc...
Orcs of Thar Gazetteer from Basic D&D, anyone? The hilarious interior art by Jim Holloway alone would be worth it.
Megadungeon sounds boring, and it strains my suspension of disbelief. Why would such a thing reasonably exist?Because megadungeons have been in the game longer than anything else, for one.
And because I as the Creative Director would be intrigued by the challenge of making a megadungeon AP work in a way that doesn't get boring in, say, the same way that Temple of Elemental Evil can get boring. There needs to be a lot more going on in a giant dungeon than just room after room of stuff.
The Maure Castle levels we did in Dungeon are sort of a megadungeon AP... we'd probably use the way we set those up as an initial draft.
My question about it's reason for existence was for an internal reason, within the world. I've played in Maure Castle (without its expansions) and I consider it just on the verge of what's believable, but the megadungeons like Undermountain, World's Largest Dungeon, or Castle Whiterock, to name a few, I don't know, that just seems gimmicky to me, and difficult to explain in-game, and I don't think I'd have fun playing ar GMing such a game. Well, YMMV, of course.
Well... Jade Regent is itself quite experimental... and not only because it globetrots. It's also got a LOT more NPC interaction in the storyline than anything we've done before.
That sounds incredibly awesome to me. I'd much rather have tons of roleplaying than a huge dungeon crawl.
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Which means that what's coming AFTER Jade Regent won't be that experimental at all. It WILL be bad-ass though.
War against the Slavers?
A gritty knock-down & drag-out fight with the most ruthless bastards in Golarion.A slow advancement track AP which takes the PCs from levels 1-12, starting in a sleepy Taldoran township which serves as a front for vicious slave trade, to a Slaver guild operating out of the chaos and turmoil of Galt and beyond to the horror of the lower planes.
From the hidden slave pits of Oppara's ancient undercity to fighting in shadows and terror of the final blades of Galt. A conspiracy of wicked men of a far reaching Order bent on world domination - one kidnapped noble at a time. Their will is War and Anarchy and their marching orders come straight from the wastes of Abaddon, but in the end it's all guided by a very human hands.
A different style AP where actions in one module have repercussions and variable outcomes/plot paths in each subsequent installment, and guess what - they will have a game plan for dealing with would-be heroes. Stay one step ahead of the Slavers or end up a speed bump in their plans for total control.
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Sorry for repeatedly pushing the slavelords thing on you Mr. Jacobs.
After the Stone Giants treatment in RoRL (tribute to the G series) I know you guys can pull off a re-envisioned bad-ass war vs. some very bad people in a new slaver series.
Hey....I tried.
No AP in Alkenstar? Great news! My group would never, never play an adventure in Alkenstar. We really like guns - in Shadowrun, but not in a fantasy setting. One of the good things about playing in our own campaign world is that Alkenstar is not on the map. Yes, I really hate it, the only thing I hate in Golarion and by far the worst part of this great campaign world.
Mega Dungeon: A complete AP underground, no sunlight for three years of game time, sounds depressing.
I would love to see an AP in Nex/Geb, the Worldwound, the Land of the Linnorm Kings or the Realm of the Mammoth Lords.
hm, what about an AP in Alkenstar and the Mana Wastes, concerning a return of Nex?+1
It would be interesting to play an AP that goes into a dead magic realm. And you know you'll be encountering gunslingers in this region.
A few things about that:
1) I'm not really interested in setting an AP in a region where 2/3 of our class options are hobbled or crippled.
2) I'm not yet sure that gunslingers are going to play a significant role at all in Golarion. In fact, I suspect they WON'T. Just because it's in a rulebook doesn't mean it's going to be in Golarion. We'll still SUPPORT those rulebooks, but some of the stuff we put in rulebooks is more intended to support the game as a whole rather than just Golarion. The Pathfinder RPG is more than just Golarion.
The dwarven gunslinger would like to have a word with you, Mr. Jacobs. Said with a gruff inflection, he'd like to remind that despite the longest resistance of providing an arcanist-warrior and leaving the eldritch knight PrC as the only valid option, movement eventually gave way to the birthing of the Magus base class. ;-)
I won't sweat about the lack of an AP; I get that. But kudos to the writer who can come up with a module that focuses around that area of Golarion and do it so convincingly. In fact, whomever that individual may be should deservingly get paid a higher per-diem for the word count.
My guess at the too experimental AP would have to be one set in Numeria. I am guessing barbarians and robots might, just might be a bit experimental. ;). And if it is I can't wait.
Agreed! This tribute is long overdue!
My question about it's reason for existence was for an internal reason, within the world. I've played in Maure Castle (without its expansions) and I consider it just on the verge of what's believable, but the megadungeons like Undermountain, World's Largest Dungeon, or Castle Whiterock, to name a few, I don't know, that just seems gimmicky to me, and difficult to explain in-game, and I don't think I'd have fun playing ar GMing such a game. Well, YMMV, of course.Megadungeon sounds boring, and it strains my suspension of disbelief. Why would such a thing reasonably exist?Because megadungeons have been in the game longer than anything else, for one.
And because I as the Creative Director would be intrigued by the challenge of making a megadungeon AP work in a way that doesn't get boring in, say, the same way that Temple of Elemental Evil can get boring. There needs to be a lot more going on in a giant dungeon than just room after room of stuff.
The Maure Castle levels we did in Dungeon are sort of a megadungeon AP... we'd probably use the way we set those up as an initial draft.
That's the thing, it's down to taste, and the talent / quality of the writing. I found Undermountain dull and monotonous, Maure Castle brim full of imagination and colour. As for realism - I'm not really interested in that because much of the normal trappings of a mediaeval campaign fall apart when you factor in magic, and powerful magic entities. In a world where demon lords tempt humanity, and part of their realm fractures reality, realism quickly becomes a moveable feast whose courses are dictated by the preferences of the GM and players.
That's the thing, it's down to taste, and the talent / quality of the writing. I found Undermountain dull and monotonous, Maure Castle brim full of imagination and colour. As for realism - I'm not really interested in that because much of the normal trappings of a mediaeval campaign fall apart when you factor in magic, and powerful magic entities. In a world where demon lords tempt humanity, and part of their realm fractures reality, realism quickly becomes a moveable feast whose courses are dictated by the preferences of the GM and players.My question about it's reason for existence was for an internal reason, within the world. I've played in Maure Castle (without its expansions) and I consider it just on the verge of what's believable, but the megadungeons like Undermountain, World's Largest Dungeon, or Castle Whiterock, to name a few, I don't know, that just seems gimmicky to me, and difficult to explain in-game, and I don't think I'd have fun playing ar GMing such a game. Well, YMMV, of course.Megadungeon sounds boring, and it strains my suspension of disbelief. Why would such a thing reasonably exist?Because megadungeons have been in the game longer than anything else, for one.
And because I as the Creative Director would be intrigued by the challenge of making a megadungeon AP work in a way that doesn't get boring in, say, the same way that Temple of Elemental Evil can get boring. There needs to be a lot more going on in a giant dungeon than just room after room of stuff.
The Maure Castle levels we did in Dungeon are sort of a megadungeon AP... we'd probably use the way we set those up as an initial draft.
Probably the easiest way to do a megadungeon in Golarion would be to use the followers of Rovagug.
Say that one of his clerics decided that the best way to free him was simply to dig a hole to his prison. Centuries later, the predictable schisms between the various Rovagug factions, attacks from other churches, and interference from Drow and Duragar has left a huge, sprawling hole in the ground that the PCs must enter to stop the latest round of digging.
pit of gormuz!, yes! that would be awesome!
Undermountain
This is what happens when you let a Chaotic Evil 30th level Mage who is, quite literally, insane, run around all willy nilly like. I always did want to challenge Halaster to a chess match on that nifty board of his though.
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Numeria and Rahadoum are my top two choices for the primary settings of an AP. Also, I'd be happy with an AP that focuses on the Nex/Geb dynamic, with maybe a side trip to Alkenstar at some point because I echo Mr. Jacobs' concerns with running an AP in a location that neutralizes a majority of the games' classes but also would like to see Alkenstar get a little love.
I'd also be happy with one of the "non-experimental" APs being set in Taldor, just because I feel like we should have that nation fleshed out a good deal more.
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Creative Director
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Numeria and Rahadoum are my top two choices for the primary settings of an AP. Also, I'd be happy with an AP that focuses on the Nex/Geb dynamic, with maybe a side trip to Alkenstar at some point because I echo Mr. Jacobs' concerns with running an AP in a location that neutralizes a majority of the games' classes but also would like to see Alkenstar get a little love.
I'd also be happy with one of the "non-experimental" APs being set in Taldor, just because I feel like we should have that nation fleshed out a good deal more.
The upcoming module, "Tomb of the Iron Medusa," is set in Taldor and while it's mostly a really cool dungeon crawl, it DOES add a significant level of backstory and history to the region.
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The upcoming module, "Tomb of the Iron Medusa," is set in Taldor and while it's mostly a really cool dungeon crawl, it DOES add a significant level of backstory and history to the region.
I like every word you just said. Especially the title, as something in me will always love titles that use the format of "Blank of Ominous Sounding Thing". Also, a dungeon crawl sounds like a nice break from my group traipsing around in Kingmaker's woods. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.
Also, thanks for being part of the team responsible for my friends and I's favorite way to spend Saturday night.
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Creative Director
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And about bloody time too..theres been far too much love given to the weak willed Andorans and those foul Devil loving Chelaxians I tell you
Note: I did not say that loyal Taldans would like what this module reveals... sometimes when you turn on the harsh light of scrutiny, you reveal ugly scars and hidden deformities...
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Creative Director
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I hope the next AP is set at least partially in Razmiran. That's probably my favorite location in the setting. Very original and clever, and lots of opportunity for adventure, especially the "rebel against the evil empire" variety, except with an awesome spin with living gods and such.
Nope.
We've done a 3-part adventure arc set in or near or involving Razmiran, though.
Ah, well. That sounds good enough to me.Nope.
We've done a 3-part adventure arc set in or near or involving Razmiran, though.
And if your PCs do it right, they will probably find out enough about what really is behind the Cult of Razmir to start a campaign against Razmiran, if you are so inclined. But we probably won´t se an official campaign about that, because somebody from paizo said at some point that they don´t want to change the (political) map of Golarion because of some story.
Stefan
Numeria would be an interesting place for an AP, my vote fot that.
An AP that is over/under the sea with some nice islands to explore(like " the mysterious island", book version of "the voyage of the dawn treader", "treasure island", etc.) Pirates, sea monsters, island natives(more like hawaii or easter island) would be nice as well
AP were you get to go to one of the other planets in the solar system.
An AP that focuses more on the first world.
AP that takes place in an area that is like a "lost world" with dinosaurs, reptilian races(like lizard folk, trolodites, serpent folk, etc.)primitive humaniods.