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I have a couple of questions regarding wizard spell acquisition and I need some specific rule references to cite. I’m playing a 1st level wizard in a Kingmaker campaign and my character’s spell book was stolen when we were waylaid by bandits. I have two spells left in memory and would like to inscribe them into an extra spell book I wisely purchased. Checking the rules under “replacing and copying spell books”, it appears that I can write them into my (currently blank) extra spell book for 10 gold each. However, the rules don’t state why you need the 10 gold. My GM ruled that it is for special inks and since we’re not near any city, I don’t have access to them. This seems harsh to me. Is there any rule clarifying this one way or another?
My second question involves spells gained at new levels. The reference docs say “At each new wizard level, he gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that he can cast (based on his new wizard level) for his spellbook.” The magic chapter of the Player’s Guide explains this by stating “Wizards perform a certain amount of spell research between adventures” (p 219.). My GM has ruled that since I don’t have access to a city with a library, I can’t perform “research” and I won’t gain these new spells. I feel I’ve lost a major class feature and I need something to convince the GM he is wrong. Can anyone direct me to an applicable FAQ or resource to back up my case?
I have a couple of questions regarding wizard spell acquisition and I need some specific rule references to cite. I’m playing a 1st level wizard in a Kingmaker campaign and my character’s spell book was stolen when we were waylaid by bandits. I have two spells left in memory and would like to inscribe them into an extra spell book I wisely purchased. Checking the rules under “replacing and copying spell books”, it appears that I can write them into my (currently blank) extra spell book for 10 gold each. However, the rules don’t state why you need the 10 gold. My GM ruled that it is for special inks and since we’re not near any city, I don’t have access to them. This seems harsh to me. Is there any rule clarifying this one way or another?
My second question involves spells gained at new levels. The reference docs say “At each new wizard level, he gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that he can cast (based on his new wizard level) for his spellbook.” The magic chapter of the Player’s Guide explains this by stating “Wizards perform a certain amount of spell research between adventures” (p 219.). My GM has ruled that since I don’t have access to a city with a library, I can’t perform “research” and I won’t gain these new spells. I feel I’ve lost a major class feature and I need something to convince the GM he is wrong. Can anyone direct me to an applicable FAQ or resource to back up my case?
I think he's being too harsh, but GM fiat wins out for story and environment rulings...
I would argue that research doesn't have to be conducted in a library (even though I'm a librarian). Otherwise a lot of field science would be useless, and Wizards can (eventually) extrapolate spells from ones cast by opponents...As to the ink needing to come from a city, most medieval ink was plant-based and I would also expect that a Knowledge (nature), Profession (scribe) or such might lead you to a wild source of acceptable quality.
But these things are up to the GM. I would not have ruled that way in this case, because it unfairly binds Wizards to urban areas.
Your GM is being a lot of really bad words. Remind him of what it's like to be oppositional by using those unlimited cantrips you have to do all those annoying things you normally won't do.
Like Mend all those catapults. Then use prestidigitation to warm all the food and cool all the drinks for a silver each usage. Clean the entire place with the spell too. Acid Splash everything.
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I have a couple of questions regarding wizard spell acquisition and I need some specific rule references to cite. I’m playing a 1st level wizard in a Kingmaker campaign and my character’s spell book was stolen when we were waylaid by bandits. I have two spells left in memory and would like to inscribe them into an extra spell book I wisely purchased. Checking the rules under “replacing and copying spell books”, it appears that I can write them into my (currently blank) extra spell book for 10 gold each. However, the rules don’t state why you need the 10 gold. My GM ruled that it is for special inks and since we’re not near any city, I don’t have access to them. This seems harsh to me. Is there any rule clarifying this one way or another?
I am not sure if there is a specific rule on this or not, that being said it has always been under my assumption that yes this was for special inks and such and as such that unless you find even a meager market you will have trouble inscribing these.
My second question involves spells gained at new levels. The reference docs say “At each new wizard level, he gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that he can cast (based on his new wizard level) for his spellbook.” The magic chapter of the Player’s Guide explains this by stating “Wizards perform a certain amount of spell research between adventures” (p 219.). My GM has ruled that since I don’t have access to a city with a library, I can’t perform “research” and I won’t gain these new spells. I feel I’ve lost a major class feature and I need something to convince the GM he is wrong. Can anyone direct me to an applicable FAQ or resource to back up my case?
Your GM is flat out wrong. You are always doing research with or without stepping foot into a city let alone a Library. You should in fact get these spells and be able to add them in your book, providing of course you have access to the special inks you need to inscribe them.
Did the bandits steal your other equipment as well? Otherwise, you should still have the ink you normally use to scribe spells into your spellbook.
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Arcane Magical Writings
To record an arcane spell in written form, a character uses complex notation that describes the magical forces involved in the spell. The writer uses the same system no matter what her native language or culture. However, each character uses the system in his own way. Another person's magical writing remains incomprehensible to even the most powerful wizard until he takes time to study and decipher it.
To decipher an arcane magical writing (such as a single spell in another's spellbook or on a scroll), a character must make a Spellcraft check (DC 20 + the spell's level). If the skill check fails, the character cannot attempt to read that particular spell again until the next day. A read magic spell automatically deciphers magical writing without a skill check. If the person who created the magical writing is on hand to help the reader, success is also automatic.
Once a character deciphers a particular piece of magical writing, he does not need to decipher it again. Deciphering magical writing allows the reader to identify the spell and gives some idea of its effects (as explained in the spell description). If the magical writing is a scroll and the reader can cast arcane spells, he can attempt to use the scroll.
Wizard Spells and Borrowed Spellbooks
A wizard can use a borrowed spellbook to prepare a spell he already knows and has recorded in his own spellbook, but preparation success is not assured. First, the wizard must decipher the writing in the book (see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Once a spell from another spellcaster's book is deciphered, the reader must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell's level) to prepare the spell. If the check succeeds, the wizard can prepare the spell. He must repeat the check to prepare the spell again, no matter how many times he has prepared it before. If the check fails, he cannot try to prepare the spell from the same source again until the next day. However, as explained above, he does not need to repeat a check to decipher the writing.
Adding Spells to a Wizard's Spellbook
Wizards can add new spells to their spellbooks through several methods. A wizard can only learn new spells that belong to the wizard spell lists.
Spells Gained at a New Level: Wizards perform a certain amount of spell research between adventures. Each time a character attains a new wizard level, he gains two spells of his choice to add to his spellbook. The two free spells must be of spell levels he can cast. If he has chosen to specialize in a school of magic, one of the two free spells must be from his specialty school.
Spells Copied from Another's Spellbook or a Scroll: A wizard can also add a spell to his book whenever he encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizard's spellbook. No matter what the spell's source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing (see Arcane Magical Writings). Next, he must spend 1 hour studying the spell. At the end of the hour, he must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell's level). A wizard who has specialized in a school of spells gains a +2 bonus on the Spellcraft check if the new spell is from his specialty school. If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into his spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook). The process leaves a spellbook that was copied from unharmed, but a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears from the parchment.
If the check fails, the wizard cannot understand or copy the spell. He cannot attempt to learn or copy that spell again until he gains another rank in Spellcraft. If the spell was from a scroll, a failed Spellcraft check does not cause the spell to vanish.
In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to half the cost to write the spell into a spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook). Rare and unique spells might cost significantly more.
Independent Research: A wizard can also research a spell independently, duplicating an existing spell or creating an entirely new one. The cost to research a new spell, and the time required, are left up to GM discretion, but it should probably take at least 1 week and cost at least 1,000 gp per level of the spell to be researched. This should also require a number of Spellcraft and Knowledge (arcana) checks.
Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook
Once a wizard understands a new spell, he can record it into his spellbook.
Time: The process takes 1 hour per spell level. Cantrips (0 levels spells) take 30 minutes to record.
Space in the Spellbook: A spell takes up one page of the spellbook per spell level. Even a 0-level spell (cantrip) takes one page. A spellbook has 100 pages.
Materials and Costs: The cost for writing a new spell into a spellbook depends on the level of the spell, as noted on the following table. Note that a wizard does not have to pay these costs in time or gold for spells he gains for free at each new level.
Spell Level Writing Cost
0 5 gp
1 10 gp
2 40 gp
3 90 gp
4 160 gp
5 250 gp
6 360 gp
7 490 gp
8 640 gp
9 810 gp
Replacing and Copying Spellbooks
A wizard can use the procedure for learning a spell to reconstruct a lost spellbook. If he already has a particular spell prepared, he can write it directly into a new book at the same cost required to write a spell into a spellbook. The process wipes the prepared spell from his mind, just as casting it would. If he does not have the spell prepared, he can prepare it from a borrowed spellbook and then write it into a new book.
Duplicating an existing spellbook uses the same procedure as replacing it, but the task is much easier. The time requirement and cost per page are halved.
Selling a Spellbook
Captured spellbooks can be sold for an amount equal to half the cost of purchasing and inscribing the spells within.
'Tis true, you need the inks to be able to write stuff down in a spellbook (except for the free spells). That's what the GP is for. As for the research thing, that's up to the DM. Some DMs require non-magical classes to 'train' between levels as well, and that's their perogative. You should have been made aware of this BEFORE the game started though, especially with an exploration/wilderness heavy campaign like Kingmaker. In short, the DM is acting within his rights. However, it also sounds like he's being a bleep about it.
So what exactly is your wizard supposed to do now? You've got two spells left prepared. You can't even write them down, so they're essentially one-and-done. Now, you could trust that the DM has a bone to throw you shortly and stick it out another session. Maybe this is just an object lesson to teach you to protect your most valuable possession. Your party may stumble across the bandit's bodies after they were savaged by something else (there's always a bigger fish).
Alternatively your character, realizing that he's nigh-useless (hey, he's a wizard, that means he has to be smart), high-tails it back home. Or at least to the nearest settlement. I mean seriously, without spells, what exactly are you meant to contribute to the party? Using a 3+INT/day ability and nothing more? Oh wait, if you have a bonded object you can still spontaneously cast 1 spell per day. There's nothing that says you have to have your spellbook WITH you for that to work. Other than that... hope you've got a crossbow, because you've just been reduced to a 1st level hireling.
We’re playing Kingmaker and using Oleg’s trading post as a base. I was able to convince a runner to purchase the supplies I need from the closest city - he'll be back in a couple of weeks. I should be able to continue this into the future, so I’ll be able to transcribe spells from scrolls into my spellbook and “backup my data” in case of another mishap. For now, I’m basically using my bow.
I’m really hoping the GM changes his mind on the research aspect of the class. I’ve played wizards before and those two spells /level make a huge difference. In most Pathfinder adventure paths, there are long periods of time when characters are isolated from civilization. It doesn’t make sense to allow other classes to gain new skills and abilities without training but to limit wizards.
Take the Spell Mastery feat as soon as you are able to. That way, you won't be completely hosed the next time your GM does this to you.
It kind of sounds as if your GM doesn't like wizards, since he has stolen your spellbook already at level 1, plus doesn't allow you the free spells you get when levelling. If that's the case, you may be better off as a sorcerer..
Take the Spell Mastery feat as soon as you are able to. That way, you won't be completely hosed the next time your GM does this to you.
It kind of sounds as if your GM doesn't like wizards, since he has stolen your spellbook already at level 1, plus doesn't allow you the free spells you get when levelling. If that's the case, you may be better off as a sorcerer..
Or a witch... though even there maybe not so much since familiar's can die.
I have a couple of questions regarding wizard spell acquisition and I need some specific rule references to cite. I’m playing a 1st level wizard in a Kingmaker campaign and my character’s spell book was stolen when we were waylaid by bandits. I have two spells left in memory and would like to inscribe them into an extra spell book I wisely purchased. Checking the rules under “replacing and copying spell books”, it appears that I can write them into my (currently blank) extra spell book for 10 gold each. However, the rules don’t state why you need the 10 gold. My GM ruled that it is for special inks and since we’re not near any city, I don’t have access to them. This seems harsh to me. Is there any rule clarifying this one way or another?
My second question involves spells gained at new levels. The reference docs say “At each new wizard level, he gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that he can cast (based on his new wizard level) for his spellbook.” The magic chapter of the Player’s Guide explains this by stating “Wizards perform a certain amount of spell research between adventures” (p 219.). My GM has ruled that since I don’t have access to a city with a library, I can’t perform “research” and I won’t gain these new spells. I feel I’ve lost a major class feature and I need something to convince the GM he is wrong. Can anyone direct me to an applicable FAQ or resource to back up my case?
Wow you DM is being a bit harsh. Your first problem is you are asking for specific rule references, however your dm is making up his own rules. The word library never occurs in the text for gaining new spells.
amount of spell research between adventures. Each time a
character attains a new wizard level, he gains two spells of
his choice to add to his spellbook. The two free spells must
be of spell levels he can cast. If he has chosen to specialize
in a school of magic, one of the two free spells must be
from his specialty school.
There is no requirement to have access to a library.
As for recording spells into your spellbook the word ink never appears. You can record your spells in your own blood if you like. The cost is never explained, you just pay it.
Wizards can add new spells to their spellbooks through
several methods. A wizard can only learn new spells that
belong to the wizard spell lists.
Spells Gained at a New Level: Wizards perform a certain
amount of spell research between adventures. Each time a
character attains a new wizard level, he gains two spells of
his choice to add to his spellbook. The two free spells must
be of spell levels he can cast. If he has chosen to specialize
in a school of magic, one of the two free spells must be
from his specialty school.
Spells Copied from Another’s Spellbook or a Scroll:
A wizard can also add a spell to his book whenever
he encounters
one on a magic scroll or in another
wizard’s spellbook. No matter what the spell’s source,
the wizard
must f irst decipher the magical writing (see
Arcane Magical Writings). Next, he must spend 1 hour
studying
the spell. At the end of the hour, he must make
a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell’s level). A wizard who
has specialized in a school of spells gains a +2 bonus on
the Spellcraft check if the new spell is from his specialty
school. If the check succeeds, the wizard understands
the spell and can copy it into his spellbook (see Writing
a New Spell into a Spellbook). The process leaves a
spellbook that was copied
from unharmed, but a spell
successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears from
the parchment.
If the check fails, the wizard cannot understand or copy
the spell. He cannot attempt to learn or copy that spell
again until he gains another rank in Spellcraft. If the spell
was from a scroll, a failed Spellcraft check does not cause
the spell to vanish.
In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of
copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually
equal to half the cost to write the spell into a spellbook (see
Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook). Rare and unique
spells might cost significantly more.
If your DM persists in being picky on these subjects, throw it back at him.
Ask for the following plus any you can think of.
- A complete list of the names of the books I need to study to gain 1st level spells, 2nd level spells, etc, including authors,titles,subjects,etc.
- How much time do I need to spend doing this research each day.
- What if we gain levels too quickly and I don't have time to find the books and do the research
- Since I need this "Special" ink, I want to take some alchemy and make it myself.
- How is it made, I need a list of ingredients, The Craft DC to make it.
make it too much of a hassle to stick to those obnoxious rulings.
On a side note why haven't you and your party tracked down the bandits and got your book back?
To summarize:
1. Your GM is bing a %@!#-head
2. Your two free spells each level don't cost you anything to scribe them. It's a class feature and taking it away from you is like taking Rage away from a barbarian. It shouldn't be done. Since you stil have your blank backup spellbook, I assume that the bandits didn't steal all your gear, so you should have the basic ink (as well as the knowledge to make it out of leaves and twigs and free stuff) so you can access your free class ability.
3. As for research, there really isn't a hard and fast rule about it, but the "research" part of your two free spells is just fluff. The fact is that a wizard gets two free spells each level. He figures out how to cast these just like a sorcerer figures out how to cast his new spells. It's mental. It's in your head. You don't need labs and libraries to get this class ability. Now, if you want to learn more than your two freebies, then by all means, hit the library and do your own research according to your GM's wishes.
4. The cost for scribing other spells (beyond your two free spells) is implied as a materials cost. You figure out what the materials are. Special inks, or maybe just a costly stick of incense to help you meditate while you scribe your spells with ordinary ink. Whatever. Up to you. Most DMs I know assume your Knowledge (Arcana) teaches you how to make these inks - it's so basic that you don't need to even make a skill roll (you'll note that it tells you the GP price but doesn't list a skill roll to make/acquire the materials). You just need to find/acquire the ingredients which is easy enough to do in a decent sized settlement but can be difficult when you're in the middle of nowhere - though some DMs just handwaive it and say that you brought some along with you and make you pay for it "after the fact" (in other words, you have a small replaceable supply but you don't need to buy it in advance; just deduct the gold each time you scribe your spells).
5. Pursuant to point #4, I can see that if your GM wants to rule that you have no access to the materials, then you're not likely to be able to assume you have a small replaceable supply, either.
and most importantly:
6. Your GM is bing a %@!#-head. Tell him you won't play a screwed wizard. Work with him. Maybe he's going to have you find a spellbook next week and just didn't want to tell you. Maybe he's really being a %@!#-head for some reason. But either way, you won't play a screwed wizard, so your GM needs to make it right or let you play something else. Because with no armor, no weapon training, no HP, and no spells, you would be better off playing an NPC commoner.
Who knows? Maybe he'll surprise you by having you stumble across an abandoned wizard's tower, full of enough scrolls and spellbooks and magical inks to last you an entire career. Might even happen in your next session.
Maybe he's just teasing you a little, in which case he's only pretending to be a %@!#-head.
let me put it this way.
your gm is beeing a JERK about it, he can quote alle the logic and rules he want, but the game is about having fun, so reducing one of the pc's to a 1st lvl hireling is not cool. he has effectivly crippeled you.
if i where you i would talk to him/her outside the game as ask if he simply dosent like wizards in this adventure, perhaps he would like you to role up an other class (sorcerer comes to mind) or perhaps he dosent realise the effect it has on your pc.
an other option is to take your party back to civilisation after all the adventure is not on a timer so what is a couple of weeks of extra downtime going to cost you
I am going to assume your DM is enthusiastic about the hardship aspect of the module and is either mistaken or fooling with you.
Not having to pay for something means just that. You could have learned the spells from your background and the shape of the clouds.
I'd simply ask the party to come with you back to civilization for supplies. There are some things your wizard can't do without. Weeks of waiting will cripple you in the module.
I wont suggest that you in turn be pedantic about every detail.
Q: How do they run the outpost?
Q: Do they have paper? My character takes the time to count each piece and organize them to find the best magic pieces - how many are there and of what qualities and shape?
Q: Are there any birds? What are the rules for making my own nibs? How many Feathers? Are the feathers better than shaped sticks?
S
i think you need to petition to make a new character seeing as without being able to write your spells down cause you dont have the proper ink (which btw nothing in the core book says you need special arcane ink to write spells), and with not being able to research or prepare spells for the day you are completely useless except for using some of the few skills you are trained in that others aren't, or you need to stop progressing towards where the gm wants you to go and head back to town and get the supplies you need.
To summarize:
1. Your GM is being a %@!#-head...
+1
Next game, show up with a Dwarf Cleric and rock his world.
Nope, You could have your holy symbol, armor, weapons stolen. I'd create a monk.To summarize:
1. Your GM is being a %@!#-head...
+1
Next game, show up with a Dwarf Cleric and rock his world.
Or a Sorc. Free Eschew Materials at level 1 ftw!
If you need to spend money on something, you need to buy it, whatever it is, it is as simple as that. So he is rigth supossing that you need to buy X in some place, however it should be available in small towns if the cost is low. Maybe you could use some Craft skill and time to get the expensive materials, but I doubt you have that skill.
About the free spells per level you should get 'em, it is a class feature based on your level. Unless your GM is using training rules that makes people go to sword trainers, magic schools and such, to get their class features, you should get those spells ASAP.
Nope, You could have your holy symbol, armor, weapons stolen. I'd create a monk.
A monk with Vow of Poverty :)
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Thess, I'll chime in and agree that your GM is being a jerk. He has violated the most important rule of the game: The Game Shall Be Fun For All Involved.
Therefore, I would propose the following to your group:
"Guys, we need to head back to civilization. And apparently we need to stay there for some time. If the GM does it to me, he'll do it to the fighter when a weapon breaks, or the thief when he wants to learn a new skill."
To the GM, say "We're heading back to Restov. I hope those bandits don't destroy Oleg's while we're gone. That would be a shame. Oh well, too bad. Oleg, my friend, good luck with the bandits. If they show up, I'd try to bluff. Or run."
There's no use in trying to use a different class to game the system. Your GM is making crap up to be difficult. I'm all in favor of making crap up, but it's gotta be fun and improve the story.
Your GM just lost three GM prestige-class levels.
Resolution:
I had the GM read this thread. He b~~~#ed and said it was his game and he wanted to keep the style of old school D&D, but agreed that I was unfairly singled out. Sure enough, the next game session a package arrived from our patrons with a bunch of 1st and 2nd level scrolls and enough supplies to write them into my spell book. I'm good until 5th level and by that time I figure I'll have my "lab" up and running so I can get my regular two spells per level. Personally, I think he should just play it by the rules as written, but he runs a fun game so WTH.
Anyways, I thank everyone who posted for their help.
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We’re playing Kingmaker and using Oleg’s trading post as a base. I was able to convince a runner to purchase the supplies I need from the closest city - he'll be back in a couple of weeks. I should be able to continue this into the future, so I’ll be able to transcribe spells from scrolls into my spellbook and “backup my data” in case of another mishap. For now, I’m basically using my bow.
I’m really hoping the GM changes his mind on the research aspect of the class. I’ve played wizards before and those two spells /level make a huge difference. In most Pathfinder adventure paths, there are long periods of time when characters are isolated from civilization. It doesn’t make sense to allow other classes to gain new skills and abilities without training but to limit wizards.
I would respectfully request that your DM reconsider his position. Let him know that you feel that his interpretation of the rules has unfairly limited your character. If he decides that you still can't research without being in a city then ask him if you are banking up the ungained spells or if you are going to lose them and only get the two from the most recent level. If you aren't banking these spells up then I would recommend having your wizard wander into the woods alone and covered in honey. After the wizard is mauled to death by owlbears ask him if he has any special house rules regarding sorcerers. If he does then roll up a monk, because that's the only way you're gong to avoid being a commoner with a good will save.
The only penalty I ever enforced was if you level up in the middle of the day, you could get hit points, skills, feats, etc. but I made the character rest/prep spells before being able to cast the new spells.
There are some over-bearing GMs out there. It's supposed to be fun not players vs. Game Master.
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glad it worked out!
in the same situation i would argue for my spells when i level up. Research is very vague, i mean you did increase spell craft and K(arcana) so you did learn something.
having your book stolen is fine, you still wont be a commoner. It is just unusual to have something stolen while you are alive, if it was on your person.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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GM changes his mind on the research aspect of the class.
I'd recommend playing with a different group or playing a non-spellbook character.
The rules don't specify what the costs are and where the spells originate, so while your GM is well within his right to enforce these restrictions, he should understand all he is doing by this is diminishing your fun.
