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I have a simple question I cannot find the answer too. If I am running a 5th to 9th level tiered module, can a 4th level character play under the play, play, play rule? Some people have told me "playing up" is ok, but you can NEVER "play down. I found a previous thread (http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinder Society/general/tiersAndCharacterLevels1ekxx&page=2)
that never really answered the question.
This section of the new PFS society Campaign guide
Though it is possible
for lower-level characters to occasionally at higher Tiers
(playing up) or lower Tiers (playing down) in order to
make a legal table, it is never permissible for a 12th-level
Pathfinder Society character to play down.
(PFS campaign guide page 18)
Seems to indicate you can play up, but the example used is playing up to a different sub-tier, not playing a module that your character does not meet the level requirements for. Please let me know if "playing up" is allowed in PFS. Thanks
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I'm sure I rad it (only a week ago) exactly the way Kyle read it.
However, with it only being one level, Josh may come out and make an exception.
That is, an exception only if all the other PCs are 5th level, or at least APL 5.
You may have to wait until Monday when the offices are open for Josh.
No. There are no exceptions. If you are not within the tier of the mod you don't play. A level 4 can never play a tier 5-9.
EDIT: Sorry that came out harsher than I intended. But no, you cannot play out of tier :)
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I'm sure I rad it (only a week ago) exactly the way Kyle read it.
However, with it only being one level, Josh may come out and make an exception.
That is, an exception only if all the other PCs are 5th level, or at least APL 5.
You may have to wait until Monday when the offices are open for Josh.
No. There are no exceptions. If you are not within the tier of the mod you don't play. A level 4 can never play a tier 5-9.
EDIT: Sorry that came out harsher than I intended. But no, you cannot play out of tier :)
Um...
At an officially sanctioned event in the not so distant past, I was GM for a table w/ 1 x 9th level, 1 x 6th level and 3 x 5th levels. Played at Tier 5-6.Technically an example of playing down, but you get the idea.
I know what has been written and I know what has been done.
It seems to me Dragor2017, that the "Play, Play, Play" rule
of PFS (much like Rule 0) takes precedence over everything else.
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There is a difference between Playing Down and Playing Out Of Tier.
Playing Down is when the APL falls between subtiers, such as an APL 7 table having the option to play subtier 5-6 (or Play Up to subtier 8-9). This is allowed.
Playing Out Of Tier is when a PC is not within the spread at all, regardless if the APL adds up to something that is within the Tier.
A 4th level PC that wants to play with 7th level PCs in a tier 5-9 is not allowed, save when that player would be turned away from the event because there's nothing else they can play (Play-Play-Play).
Beyond giving us these guidelines, Josh cannot control what GMs and organizers are allowing to happen at their tables. There is no 800 number to report rules violations to the Tier Police. Josh has to trust us that we aren't gaming the system. GMs and organizers should not plan on running tables where Out Of Tier PCs are present. If it happens that a player shows up at a gameday with an Out Of Tier PC and asks to play, it puts the GM in a bad spot. If pre-gens are available, that should be considered.
Playing Out Of Tier reduces the fun of the game for the following reasons:
1) The GM has to scale back on his tactics to keep the under-powered PC alive, or
2) The under-powered PC has to stand way back from the fights to stay alive, or
3) The party ends up splitting the cost of the Raise Dead.
This isn't the case 100% of the time, but you should see my point. The less this happens the more fun everyone has.
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Hi all -
Being a 5 Star GM I totally trust Doug Doug. I'm hard at work on my 2nd Star, with running events at our Vegas Game Day each month as well as events at stores and home locations.
Part of the issue with 'not' being able to play up - even with Play Play Play is one of turning someone away. I've told all the PFS players that once you reach 4th level, you need to make a new character, and pretty much every 4 levels (so that you can usually get into something). Not too much of a problem, since most of us for our PFS VGD only a few of us have been around for a while.
So we have 7 people that showed up to our Not-at-GenCon VGD. The location doesn't have room for a second table, so if an 8th showed up, we'd have issues there too. But luckily I knew which people would show up for the most part and left 2 slots open for walk-ins. We were APL 4 and so I ran tier 3-4 with a first level character (we actually had a similar issue just the other night). Yes, the player could play a 4th level PreGen, but then he doesn't get credit for playing the module. With PreGen's I was under the impression that you didn't get a chronicle sheet unless it was a level 1 PreGen and it was a first time player. So a 4th level PreGen, the player has already played the module and will not be able to play it again, and doesn't get credit. Seems like a loose-loose situation for the player. By playing up, he's in a higher tier, with higher consequences.
A year ago, 1980's Marvel SuperHeroes was getting more play than PFS, and now I've built it up so that I'm converting 4e players. 4e had 3 tables for two sessions, and now PFS is having 2 tables for two sessions each month with on average 2 new players each month. I'm trying to mix the players up - so that I'm not GMing only new or always the same people - but with new people showing up, some are having to play up.
So even though some of my area gamers don't even have the Core Rulebook, I really try not to turn anybody away, and try not to repeat modules (that have been run at VGD during my tenure) - unless I know I have more than enough new people to run one (like Devil We Know 1-2).
Theocrat Issak
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So we have 7 people that showed up to our Not-at-GenCon VGD. The location doesn't have room for a second table, so if an 8th showed up, we'd have issues there too. But luckily I knew which people would show up for the most part and left 2 slots open for walk-ins. We were APL 4 and so I ran tier 3-4 with a first level character (we actually had a similar issue just the other night). Yes, the player could play a 4th level PreGen, but then he doesn't get credit for playing the module. With PreGen's I was under the impression that you didn't get a chronicle sheet unless it was a level 1 PreGen and it was a first time player. So a 4th level PreGen, the player has already played the module and will not be able to play it again, and doesn't get credit. Seems like a loose-loose situation for the player. By playing up, he's in a higher tier, with higher consequences.
Maybe I'm missing something here, but it's totally legal for a level 1 to play in a sub-tier 3-4 game. It's much to their benefit if they can do it and not get killed. I believe any sub-tier 3-4 is going to have to be in a tier 1-7 mod which they are legal for. The issue would be a level 8 trying to play that same mod. No go. Just like a level 4 trying to play up to a 5-9.
Of course, I could just be restating what you just said :)
We were APL 4 and so I ran tier 3-4 with a first level character (we actually had a similar issue just the other night). Yes, the player could play a 4th level PreGen, but then he doesn't get credit for playing the module. With PreGen's I was under the impression that you didn't get a chronicle sheet unless it was a level 1 PreGen and it was a first time player. So a 4th level PreGen, the player has already played the module and will not be able to play it again, and doesn't get credit. Seems like a loose-loose situation for the player. By playing up, he's in a higher tier, with higher consequences.
Like Zizazat said, you did things correctly with the person playing a level one character in sub-tier 3-4, as playing up one sub-tier is allowed. Also, even if the person had played a 4th level pregen, under the replay rules, they could play the scenario again with their own character if they were needed for a legal table or of it was the only way they would get to play. As for the chronicle sheet deal, the only way a player gets a chronicle sheet when playing a pregen is if the pregen is 1st level AND they keep the pregen and make it into their own character by changing the name and adding a faction and traits.
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Off the original post, but to the thread title:
A lot of people seem to believe that you always have the option to play up a tier.
I have been unable to find anything to support this assumption. I have only given the option to play up when the APL falls in between the tiers.
Did I miss something?
No, you didn't. The option only exists when the APL falls in between the available subtiers.
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No, you didn't. The option only exists when the APL falls in between the available subtiers.
Doug Doug uses the language correctly, and I think therein lies the problem for a lot of players. The difference is between the words Tier and Sub-Tier.
Tiers are the big ranges: 1-5, 1-7, 5-9, 7-11.
You are not under an circumstances allowed to play "up" or "down a "Tier". When determining what tier you should play in, group size does not matter and no APL is calculated. You simply look at your level and play modules in the appropriate tier.
Sub-Tiers are the smaller ranges within a Tier: 1-2, 3-4, 3-5, 6-7, etc.
This is where you can play up or down. If you're a level 1 character, and you somehow think you can hack it within a group, you can "play-up" a sub-tier with all the risks involved. Your level 1 character can try to survive a 3-4 module with a group of level 4's. Your group of six level 3's can play in the 4-5 range.
I almost wish there were different language than "tier" and "sub-tier" since it seems to be fairly confusing.
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Sub-Tiers are the smaller ranges within a Tier: 1-2, 3-4, 3-5, 6-7, etc.
This is where you can play up or down. If you're a level 1 character, and you somehow think you can hack it within a group, you can "play-up" a sub-tier with all the risks involved. Your level 1 character can try to survive a 3-4 module with a group of level 4's. Your group of six level 3's can play in the 4-5 range.
This is incorrect.
In a Tier 1-7 Mod this is how it breaks down:
APL 1 to 2.49 = subtier 1-2
APL 2.5 to 4.49 = subtier 3-4
APL 4.5-5.49 = choice of subtier 3-4 or 6-7
APL 5.5+ = subtier 6-7
EDIT: Here's the rest:
Tier 1-5
APL 1 to 2.49 = subtier 1-2
APL 2.5 to 3.49 = choice of subtier 1-2 or 3-4
APL 3.5+ = subtier 4-5
Tier 5-9
APL 5 to 6.49 = subtier 5-6
APL 6.50 to 7.49 = choice of subtier 5-6 or 8-9
APL 7.5+ = subtier 8-9
Tier 7-11
APL 7 to 8.49 = subtier 7-8
APL 8.5 to 9.49 = choice of subtier 7-8 or 10-11
APL 9.5+ = subtier 10-11
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Sub-Tiers are the smaller ranges within a Tier: 1-2, 3-4, 3-5, 6-7, etc.
This is where you can play up or down. If you're a level 1 character, and you somehow think you can hack it within a group, you can "play-up" a sub-tier with all the risks involved. Your level 1 character can try to survive a 3-4 module with a group of level 4's. Your group of six level 3's can play in the 4-5 range.
This is incorrect.
In a Tier 1-7 Mod this is how it breaks down:
Upon subsequent reading I can see why you would say so. I meant to say, if you're level 1 and JOIN a group of four level 3's (and think you can hack it), you can play up a tier (since the APL would adjust accordingly).
It should also be noted that Josh has clarified that group size adjustments to APL does not require that a group play up. If you're group is technically APL 5, but the +1 modifier for a group size of 6 would throw you into the 6-7 sub-tier, you are not required to play there.
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I just laugh to myself at how complicated we have made this game. How can we ever expect a new player to ever think they can organize a game and GM it properly when they read these messageboards? I suppose that if you played with an experienced table you could learn from them, but if you were new to the organized play system and started reading about sub-tiers (mea culpa), playing up, playing down, playing out of tier and fractional APLs your head might start to spin. Maybe that's why I like this game so much...
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I just laugh to myself at how complicated we have made this game. How can we ever expect a new player to ever think they can organize a game and GM it properly when they read these messageboards? I suppose that if you played with an experienced table you could learn from them, but if you were new to the organized play system and started reading about sub-tiers (mea culpa), playing up, playing down, playing out of tier and fractional APLs your head might start to spin. Maybe that's why I like this game so much...
Maybe somebody should just make a handy chart or excel spreadsheet that does the hard-work for players.
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In a Tier 1-7 Mod this is how it breaks down:...
Couldn't say it better myself :)
It would seem that all the responsibility to enforce the tier requirements is falling on the GM, but the players need to take some as well since it affects the other players at the table. As an example, at GenCon, I played a level 10 PC in a tier 7-11 mod with a mixed group including a level five due to the "play play play" rule. While I do not begrudge the player and understand it is in our best interest as a society to sit that player, he should have had more respect for the other players and used a level 7 pregen, instead. As it was, we should have played in the sub-tier 10-11 range with an APL of (9.5+), but because of his level, some of the players were concerned about his survivability and the majority decision, supported by the GM, was to play at sub-tier 7-8. This robbed the two level 10 players of the opportunity for challenges appropriate for our level and reduction of treasure. At these levels, the difference in the gold can be significant. Had he played a pregen, we would have played at sub-tier 10-11 and would not have been concerned because (1) he would have abilities more consistent with the challenges and (2) let's face it, it's a pregen. I do not fault the GM because he was doing what he felt was right, but the player should have have made a better decision based on respect for the other players. Just my 2cp
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I just laugh to myself at how complicated we have made this game. How can we ever expect a new player to ever think they can organize a game and GM it properly when they read these messageboards? I suppose that if you played with an experienced table you could learn from them, but if you were new to the organized play system and started reading about sub-tiers (mea culpa), playing up, playing down, playing out of tier and fractional APLs your head might start to spin. Maybe that's why I like this game so much...Maybe somebody should just make a handy chart or excel spreadsheet that does the hard-work for players.
Quickly hides her Access classbook..... *whistles*
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As an example, at GenCon, I played a level 10 PC in a tier 7-11 mod with a mixed group including a level five due to the "play play play" rule. While I do not begrudge the player and understand it is in our best interest as a society to sit that player, he should have had more respect for the other players and used a level 7 pregen, instead. As it was, we should have played in the sub-tier 10-11 range with an APL of (9.5+), but because of his level, some of the players were concerned about his survivability and the majority decision, supported by the GM, was to play at sub-tier 7-8. This robbed the two level 10 players of the opportunity for challenges appropriate for our level and reduction of treasure.
This is the exact reason why in this case I would put my foot down for the benefit of the majority of the table.
Here's the options I would have provided said player:
a) Play a level 7 pregen, but we're playing tier 10-11 and it will most likely die at some point, but I promise you that you'll enjoy the ride.
b) Play your level 5, but we're playing at tier 10-11. You will most certainly die. At least once.
c) I'll help you find a different table.
Here's the options I would have provided said player:
a) Play a level 7 pregen, but we're playing tier 10-11 and it will most likely die at some point, but I promise you that you'll enjoy the ride.
b) Play your level 5, but we're playing at tier 10-11. You will most certainly die. At least once.
c) I'll help you find a different table.
The only problem with B is that you can only play up one sub-tier, so the best that player could have done was to play at 7-8. Even with the "play, play, play" rule, this person could not play up two sub-tiers to 10-11 with a level 5 player. Solution A would not be good, since a level 7 pregen at sub-tier 10-11 is going to be hurting, so C was the only real option, providing a scenario of the appropriate level was available that the player had not already been through. Now, if no one at the table was upset or feeling resentment toward the lower level player, then the others playing down was alright to do.
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The only problem with B is that you can only play up one sub-tier, so the best that player could have done was to play at 7-8. Even with the "play, play, play" rule, this person could not play up two sub-tiers to 10-11 with a level 5 player. Solution A would not be good, since a level 7 pregen at sub-tier 10-11 is going to be hurting, so C was the only real option, providing a scenario of the appropriate level was available that the player had not already been through. Now, if no one at the table was upset or feeling resentment toward the lower level player, then the others playing down was alright to do.Here's the options I would have provided said player:
a) Play a level 7 pregen, but we're playing tier 10-11 and it will most likely die at some point, but I promise you that you'll enjoy the ride.
b) Play your level 5, but we're playing at tier 10-11. You will most certainly die. At least once.
c) I'll help you find a different table.
This robbed the two level 10 players of the opportunity for challenges appropriate for our level and reduction of treasure
sounds to me like there might have been some resentment to be honest ..
This robbed the two level 10 players of the opportunity for challenges appropriate for our level and reduction of treasuresounds to me like there might have been some resentment to be honest ..
I was trying to make my answer apply to both a future event as well as commenting on the one posted about by TwilightKnight, which is why I said "if no one at the table was upset." But anyway, who is more likely to quit or say bad things about PFS: a couple of more experienced players with level 10 characters or a potentially less experienced player with that level 5 character? Unfortunately, there is no such thing as a perfect Organized Play association and everyone should be prepared for that, hopefully, rare less than wonderful experience.
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I was trying to make my answer apply to both a future event as well as commenting on the one posted about by TwilightKnight, which is why I said "if no one at the table was upset." But anyway, who is more likely to quit or say bad things about PFS: a couple of more experienced players with level 10 characters or a potentially less experienced player with that level 5 character? Unfortunately, there is no such thing as a perfect Organized Play association and everyone should be prepared for that, hopefully, rare less than wonderful experience.
This robbed the two level 10 players of the opportunity for challenges appropriate for our level and reduction of treasuresounds to me like there might have been some resentment to be honest ..
Sorry, mistook the inflection (darn intertubes thingie).. I think as gamers we are all used to that less than perfect gaming experience. however with that much of a level difference if I was the player I wouldn't have wanted to play and would have felt bad for gimping other players -- granted some people just don't care.
Sorry, mistook the inflection (darn intertubes thingie).. I think as gamers we are all used to that less than perfect gaming experience. however with that much of a level difference if I was the player I wouldn't have wanted to play and would have felt bad for gimping other players -- granted some people just don't care.
Don't worry about it. :) I misread peoples' intent all the time. And yeah, I would never try to force my way into a table like that either. I would either find a level-appropriate table or just not play in that time slot and not stress about not playing.
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Sorry, mistook the inflection (darn intertubes thingie).. I think as gamers we are all used to that less than perfect gaming experience. however with that much of a level difference if I was the player I wouldn't have wanted to play and would have felt bad for gimping other players -- granted some people just don't care.
Unfortunately a lot of people are jerks. I guess in the case that's been noted I would have been upset as a high-level player but not simply because I didn't get to play up, but because the level 5 never should have been seated there. Contrary to popular belief, I'm not a complete jerk and I'm not about to screw over another player but conversely I'd also be somewhat upset that I'd be stuck with a completely non-challenging adventure. I'd have to agree with Kyle on how this should have been handled.
The reverse is also true though. A friend of mine was "harvested" by some players at Gen Con from the generic line because he had "somebody who could heal" and he indicated he had a level 1 druid. When he sat down he told them again he had a level 1 druid their response was "that's not high enough level, we want to play up so here's your pregen cleric". He was especially upset because he offered to play up, and the group said "no" (and in the end didn't need the extra pregen cleric). By the time he realized what had gone on, the line was gone and there was no chance to move tables. He was PISSED as he really wanted to make level 2 with his druid he had made at Gen Con. Fortunately he was also good-spirited enough to not blame society, but he was upset at the players at the table.
As much as I know Play, Play, Play is in effect, the punctual person on me really feels that it should be first-come-first-served and those that show up first shouldn't be punished by those late, or those who don't plan ahead. Every effort should be made to seat people who show up, but sometimes the very last people in line might have to be told "if you want to play X, you're going to have to do Y".
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The only problem with B is that you can only play up one sub-tier, so the best that player could have done was to play at 7-8. Even with the "play, play, play" rule, this person could not play up two sub-tiers to 10-11 with a level 5 player.
The level 5 playing in the 7-8 was just as illegal as the 10-11 tier. This isn't an example of "Playing Up." It is an example of "Playing Out of Tier." When this unfortunately happens, there are no hard rules governing allowable tiers...
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The reverse is also true though. A friend of mine was "harvested" by some players at Gen Con from the generic line because he had "somebody who could heal" and he indicated he had a level 1 druid. When he sat down he told them again he had a level 1 druid their response was "that's not high enough level, we want to play up so here's your pregen cleric". He was especially upset because he offered to play up, and the group said "no" (and in the end didn't need the extra pregen cleric). By the time he realized what had gone on, the line was gone and there was no chance to move tables. He was PISSED as he really wanted to make level 2 with his druid he had made at Gen Con. Fortunately he was also good-spirited enough to not blame society, but he was upset at the players at the table.
This is an example where a GM needs to get up off his arse and find that player a table with only 5 players playing a subtier 1-2 game. Worst case, find him one with 6 players. Forcing someone to play a pregen should never be an option.
The table does have a right to force a subtier (whether it's due to their natural APL or have a choice with APL). If the addition of this level one, still kept them at "the higher tier," then they were within their right to stay there. They (players and GM) do not have the right to turn a legal character away at this point.* They can offer alternatives, provide clear guidance (i.e. your level 1 will get smoked!), but they can't force him to play a pregen or leave the table!
*at least not for character level. There are plenty of other reasons to kick players off a table though. ;-)
... "that's not high enough level, we want to play up so here's your pregen cleric". He was especially upset because he offered to play up, and the group said "no" (and in the end didn't need the extra pregen cleric). By the time he realized what had gone on, the line was gone and there was no chance to move tables. He was PISSED as he really wanted to make level 2 with his druid he had made at Gen Con. Fortunately he was also good-spirited enough to not blame society, but he was upset at the players at the table.
Had this player brought this to my attention, I would have found him an appropriate table to sit at. The nature of large scale events like Gen Con means you won't always have an optimized party sitting at your table--but forcing someone with a level 1 character to play a pregen violates every idea I have about making the Society open and friendly.
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Had this player brought this to my attention, I would have found him an appropriate table to sit at. The nature of large scale events like Gen Con means you won't always have an optimized party sitting at your table--but forcing someone with a level 1 character to play a pregen violates every idea I have about making the Society open and friendly.
I'll let him know Josh. I'm sure he'll appreciate knowing that it was easily in his right to come and talk to you. As I said, he blamed the players, he did not blame you, Paizo, or how Society Play works. He just happened to get seated with a few bad apples.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 4
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Ryan, I've shared Raleigh PFS's Google Doc spreadsheet with you to see how we arrange tables and calculate APL.
The first sheet counts the number of scenarios each character has played and calculates the character's level.
The next sheets calculate APL depending on which characters RSVP.
It's mostly just this formula:
=round(average(F6:F11),0)+if(count(F6:F11)>5,1,0)
[round the average level to the nearest number with no decimal places, then add 1 if there are six or more players.]
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Ryan, I've shared Raleigh PFS's Google Doc spreadsheet with you to see how we arrange tables and calculate APL.
Thanks for sharing! I didn't actually need it (I keep a Google document curiously similar to your own), I was just commenting that it's gotten complex enough that for new GMs (and those new to OP in general) a nice, simple APL document might be nice.
That is cool though, let me keep read rights, I may borrow some of your ideas for our group's Google Doc.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 4
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Ryan, I've shared Raleigh PFS's Google Doc spreadsheet with you to see how we arrange tables and calculate APL.Thanks for sharing! I didn't actually need it (I keep a Google document curiously similar to your own), I was just commenting that it's gotten complex enough that for new GMs (and those new to OP in general) a nice, simple APL document might be nice.
That is cool though, let me keep read rights, I may borrow some of your ideas for our group's Google Doc.
no problem
From all these examples it sounds like playing out of tier does happen. Does PPP trump the Level range of a module, or should the level range be enforced over PPP?
Even when it does happen, I think it is only playing up, not down, that is allowed, and the limit of playing up one sub-tier would still be in effect, even with "play, play, play." So if you have a 6th level character and there is a tier 7-11 being run in sub-tier 7-8 and nothing else is being run that fits your character, then you can play. But if it is being run in sub-tier 10-11, then you are out of luck. Alternately, if things were in the opposite direction, where you have a 6th level character and there is a tier 1-5 scenario being run, you cannot ever play down to sub-tier 4-5. You option here would be to make a new character and play up to sub-tier 4-5 or maybe have everyone join you in sub-tier 1-2. 6th level characters are mainly the ones that have the best chance to get screwed over.
As for "play, play, play" in general, there are only a couple of things it does not trump. These would be min and max table size, playing up or down more than one sub-tier, and playing down out-of-tier.
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So if you have a 6th level character and there is a tier 7-11 being run in sub-tier 7-8 and nothing else is being run that fits your character, then you can play.
Pretty sure this is not true. If you show up to a 7-11 mod with a level 6 character you are playing a level 7 pregen or nothing. Out of tier play is not allowed, Play, Play, Play or not.
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So if you have a 6th level character and there is a tier 7-11 being run in sub-tier 7-8 and nothing else is being run that fits your character, then you can play.Pretty sure this is not true. If you show up to a 7-11 mod with a level 6 character you are playing a level 7 pregen or nothing. Out of tier play is not allowed, Play, Play, Play or not.
Certianly true at a 1 table game, but hopefully at a multiple table game they could find a table that he could play at.
Players sometimes need to take responsibility, don't buy ticket for a 7-11 game if you don't have a 7-11 character it is no ones fault but your own if they won't seat you at the table without playing a pre gen.
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From all these examples it sounds like playing out of tier does happen. Does PPP trump the Level range of a module, or should the level range be enforced over PPP?
PPP only applies when there is no other alternatives. In this case there are several alternatives depending on the situation.
"But I want to play my own character, not a pregen!" is not a reason to break system by allowing an out-of-tier character to play at a table.
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Pretty sure this is not true. If you show up to a 7-11 mod with a level 6 character you are playing a level 7 pregen or nothing. Out of tier play is not allowed, Play, Play, Play or not.
+1, but unfortunately, even at GenCon, where you would think this sort of thing would be least likely to happen, it did - once at a table I played at, and twice I heard from other players. The problem can be in enforcing it as the GM/coordinator. You risk "hard-lining" a n00b and turning them off to PFS. But you also need to protect the integrity of the rules against those who would try to gain rewards outside their appropriate tier.
Players sometimes need to take responsibility, don't buy ticket for a 7-11 game if you don't have a 7-11 character it is no ones fault but your own if they won't seat you at the table without playing a pre gen.
Unfortunately, this occurs all to often at cons. I lost count the number of times, during muster at GenCon, that at least one player said "Oh, I didn't realize this slot was for level X."
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Unfortunately, this occurs all to often at cons. I lost count the number of times, during muster at GenCon, that at least one player said "Oh, I didn't realize this slot was for level X."
The level of the quest is clearly labeled on the event for Gen Con, I have no sympathy for those that don't pay attention to that detail. The lack of sympathy for this is an unfortunate side effect of being in the military ;).
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The level of the quest is clearly labeled on the event for Gen Con, I have no sympathy for those that don't pay attention to that detail. The lack of sympathy for this is an unfortunate side effect of being in the military ;).
+1 (although my lack of sympathy is not because I'm in the military, but rather because I don't think the instructions are that hard to read).
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Let's say a scenario is designed for 5-9 with sub-tiers 5-6 and 8-9. What is the difference of a 7th level PC playing in sub-tier 8-9 and a 4th level PC playing in a sub-tier 5-6? They are both "playing up".
I'm at a convention, paid for a ticket, with my 4th level PC (my only), at table six people set at 3-4 sub-tier for a scenario I haven't played, and there are three other people at a 5-6 sub-tier of a 5-9 scenario I haven't played, so I'm asked to play at the 5-6 table. It's either I play my 4th level PC and make a legal table, or the table doesn't happen. What is seems that you're saying is that I should play a 7th level pregen. Nope. Not going to happen. I traveled X hours, paid for my ticket, food and a hotel to play my PC. I'd rather play my PC at the the 3-4 sub-tier table and be sad, but let the three other people miss out. By playing up, I put my PC at greater risk (actually there was a 7th level pregen cleric - I asked before I said OK), but have a potential greater reward.
This has happened to me twice. Once at GenCon.
There is no difference between a 4th level PC playing up to 5-6 sub-tier and a 7th level PC playing up to 8-9 sub-tier in a 5-9 scenario. Basically, the the PFS guide's implication that a 4th level PC can't play in a 5-9 scenario is wrong. (period) A 4th level PC should not be turned away from a 5-6 sub-tier table. IMO this violates play-play-play. The 4th level PC turned away from a 8-9 table, ya.
-Swiftbrook
Just My Thoughts
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There is no difference between a 4th level PC playing up to 5-6 sub-tier and a 7th level PC playing up to 8-9 sub-tier in a 5-9 scenario.
But there is from a monetary perspective. Josh has noted on many occasions that there is a rhyme and reason to his decisions that a lot of time have financial ramifications in order to keep the game "even". While it may appear to be the same, chances are there's more at play than any of us are really aware.
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There is no difference between a 4th level PC playing up to 5-6 sub-tier and a 7th level PC playing up to 8-9 sub-tier in a 5-9 scenario.But there is from a monetary perspective. Josh has noted on many occasions that there is a rhyme and reason to his decisions that a lot of time have financial ramifications in order to keep the game "even". While it may appear to be the same, chances are there's more at play than any of us are really aware.
Yeah, something is missing from this picture, as technically a level 4 could play in a Tier 1-7, sub-tier 6-7 couldn't they?
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Josh has noted on many occasions that there is a rhyme and reason to his decisions that a lot of time have financial ramifications in order to keep the game "even". While it may appear to be the same, chances are there's more at play than any of us are really aware.
It is a Conspiracy I say!!!! A Conspiracy!!
Ok...Once I get home I am going to detail a really easy level by level guide on what each level can legally play.
And Play..Play..Play does not trump Playing up rules so please stop throwing that around.
If you have found that you have illegally played up that was a mistake, it happens *Even Josh makes mistakes*. Just because it happened does not make it legal.