does any one else feel that the Brawler options for the Barbarian are far to weak and useless?
i was so disappointed in how weak it is.
Awww, come on, you can't just blurt stuff out like that without backing it up with a supporting statement or two.
Why do you think he's weak and useless? What is it about this class option that bothers you?
ok, sorry about that.
my problem is that using this option bumps your unarmed damage up to a d6 but that's it, no higher than that. I'm not looking for a barbarian to be on par with a monk in unarmed damage but there should be options to increase it higher.
i would have liked to have seen it go up to at least a d8 or maybe a d10, it just seems to me that your unarmed going to a d6 seems really week.
but that is just how i feel.
Now, not saying that it's a very powerful power, but 1d6 for a light melee weapon isn't THAT bad. Basically, you turn your fists into light maces for a feat.
EDIT: And it IS quite interesting that you deem something "useless" because it's 1 or 2 damage down compared to what you wished. It's not like it's a big difference.
this is true but i have to admit that when i first saw the option i finally felt that there was an option for non monk unarmed warriors.
that is why i feel this is underpowered
this is true but i have to admit that when i first saw the option i finally felt that there was an option for non monk unarmed warriors.
that is why i feel this is underpowered
There already are options. Both a fighter and a barbarian can pull it of, and I think a paladin might be able to too. Sure, they won't be optimal damage, but they could probably take down level-appropriate foes.
this is true but i have to admit that when i first saw the option i finally felt that there was an option for non monk unarmed warriors.
that is why i feel this is underpowered
I felt the same way; when I saw that there would be a "Brutal Pugilist" barbarian archetype, I was intrigued. I wasn't expecting a mere +1 bonus to some combat maneuvers and a lessened grapple penalty.
There already are options. Both a fighter and a barbarian can pull it of, and I think a paladin might be able to too. Sure, they won't be optimal damage, but they could probably take down level-appropriate foes.this is true but i have to admit that when i first saw the option i finally felt that there was an option for non monk unarmed warriors.
that is why i feel this is underpowered
yes it can be done but my problem is the unarmed damage, i want to have an unarmed damage that can be compared to a monk, again i don't want to have unarmed damage on par with a monk just one that goes up a bit more than one step.
When I picture a brutal brawler, I picture a savage ripping someone's spine from their torso and beating a second foe to death with it.
I don't picture the Barbarian kinda grappling one foe a little better, then eighteen seconds later maybe kinda grapple someone else a little better if their allies haven't already finished the fight.
A brawler is supposed to be able to hit you in the face for a reasonable amount of damage. 1d6 with a laundry list of shortcomings fails to impress.
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At later levels the difference between a d6 and a d8, or even a d6 to a d10, isn't that much of a difference. When you're adding 15 to the number it gets a bit silly to fret over.
There are 3.5 solutions to the OPs problem; namely, Superior Unarmed Strike. It gives unarmed damage that scales like a monks, but not quite as well.
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I don't see the problem. The Brutal Pugilist is the penultimate grappler character in the game now. Skip the brawler rage power and wear a monk's robe if you don't want 1d6 damage as a class ability. Personally, the elemental lesser and normal are a better bet-- +1d6 damage all of the time is not bad, especially when you could stack it up with an amulet of mighty fists holy, or mighty fists vicious and holy.
Things of note:
A brutal pugilist can grapple huge creatures at level five, or gargantuan creatures with an enlarge person.
A brutal pugilist with the knockback rage power is, barring low attack rolls, immune to grapple effects. Whenever an enemy grapples, they provoke. Knock back! If you don't push them 10 feet, you still get a +2 on CMD vs grapple. Grappling you does not stop you from pummeling an enemy mercilessly.
Brutal pugilist at 7th level:
+4 strength
+7 BAB
+1 enhancement
+2 rage
+2 Improved Grapple
+2 Greater Grapple
+2 Pit Fighter
= +20 to grapple when raging. 30+dex+misc CMD.
A 7th-level brutal pugilist can grapple down a stegosaur on an 11. Whoa! What about like, higher levels... ? Maybe some bonus stacking...
12th level brutal pugilist with reckless abandon, strong jaw on his hands, wand of enlarge person and a wand of lockjaw:
+5 strength
+12 BAB
+3 enhancement
+3 rage
+2 Improved Grapple
+2 Greater Grapple
+2 Pit Fighter
+4 reckless abandon
+4 lockjaw
+1 size
+2 animal fury
= +40 to grapple on a bite, and then you can continue to unarmed strike them. At no penalty. They're grappled, you're not, have a nice day. I love Lock Jaw!
39+dex+misc CMD as well. I would like to say... +2deflect+3dex 44 CMD. That's assuming whatever grapples you isn't hit by knockback and shoved away. If they aren't, and you hit, 46.
Your strikes are +26/+26/+22/+17 for 1d8>2d6>3d6>3d8(?)+10+2d6+2d6+1d6 and optional +1d6 swift 1/rage, and 1d6 to yourself-- but your DR is 2/-, so max 4 damage vs. your avg. 170 hp. You could power attack for more damage if you wanted to drop your grapple bonus from "Why" to "Give the enemies a chance" and deal +8/+4 more damage a strike. Assuming double slice, avg. 42 a pop, +3.5 per strike, +8/+4 if power attacking. Not even bad damage.
Without strong jaw, it's still 2d6+10+2d6+2d6+1d6+optional: 1d6. And without a +3 amulet of mighty fists-- maybe a +2, like WBL would dictate-- it'd be closer to 2d6+10+2d6+1d6+optional: 1d6. (avg. 27/30) Still not bad. The fighter's rocking out 2d6+25+1d6 (avg. 33) or so, and he doesn't have an absolutely absurd grapple modifier.
CMDs over 40:
Ancient dragons ... 44-49
Ancient red dragon ... 52
Ancient gold dragon ... 53
Greater and Elder elementals... 40-43 and 45-49
Storm giant... 42
The Kraken ... 44
*Linnorms have permanent freedom of movement! Cheaters!
Purple worm... 40
Pit fiend... 53
And you can grapple them all. At 5th level you gain the ability to grapple enemies two size categories larger than you are, so you can grapple gargantuan dragons down with an enlarge person. And apparently really, really easily. Better keep a ring of counterspells ready with dispel magic greater in it. Or just pin the mage with your thighs and pummel him to death while laughing. You know; whatever.
The only enemies you can't grapple in the game are colossal monsters. Damn! And you get the Tarrasque on a 13 at level 12!*
EDIT: Misunderstood the OP a little:
Brawler does suck, I agree. I wish it was better so this character could be even more ridiculous!
I must be the first man to ever choke out the Tarrasque.
At later levels the difference between a d6 and a d8, or even a d6 to a d10, isn't that much of a difference. When you're adding 15 to the number it gets a bit silly to fret over.
There are 3.5 solutions to the OPs problem; namely, Superior Unarmed Strike. It gives unarmed damage that scales like a monks, but not quite as well.
i am aware of that feat and i love it, my problem is that they give a barbarian an option based on fighting unarmed and it only does 1d6 damage.
i was just really let down with the option.
I don't see the problem. The Brutal Pugilist is the penultimate grappler character in the game now.
A barbarian may make a great grappler, but (a) the Brutal Pugilist archetype basically makes little difference and (b) I'm not sure what pugilism has to do with wrestling.
Come to think of it, a few of the classes and archetypes were oddly named:
- Brutal Pugilist barbarian has little to do with boxing
- Superstitious barbarian has little to do with being superstitious
- Infiltrator ranger has little to do with infiltration
- the oracle has little to do with predicting the future
- the Savage barbarian has to do with being naked and the Savage Warrior fighter has to do with using natural weapons and the Savage Skald bard has to do with being a barbarian :-)
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the Savage barbarian has to do with being naked and the Savage Warrior fighter has to do with using natural weapons and the Savage Skald bard has to do with being a barbarian :-)[/list]
Honestly, Paizo is an American company, and if they named something Naked Barbarian ... you know the rest, nipples and stuff.
im sure the brawler options are good for what they are made for, i was just a little let down when i saw the name brawler and i was expecting some nice unarmed options.
Sorry if this has been answered before, but what does the Brutal Pugilist loose?
Sorry if this has been answered before, but what does the Brutal Pugilist loose?
(Improved) Uncanny Dodge and Trap Sense.
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Dumb question. Is the 1D6 lethal damage?
Also, does it become magic later? If not, I would agree it might be useless at higher levels.
EDIT: The more I think about it, the less likely I would play it. Right now my Barbarian uses a falchion for 2D4 + 20 with a crit on 15-20 (using power attack).
I don't see the Brutal Pugilist getting anywhere near that good. Please correct if I am wrong. I have not recieved my copy yet.
| 3 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the errata. |
Just to add to this, I`m pretty sure PRPG removed the size restrictions for Grappling
(big and strong creatures are just really hard to grapple, even with the halved Size Mod)
which makes the RAW of this variant Barbarian ability somewhat pointless.
If we INTERPRET the wording in the light of PRPG`s approach to combat maneuvers,
I would say that such variant Barbarians should calculate their CMB and CMD as if they were one Size Category larger than they actually are, which would `stack` with Enlarge Person, etc.
Dumb question. Is the 1D6 lethal damage?
Also, does it become magic later? If not, I would agree it might be useless at higher levels.
EDIT: The more I think about it, the less likely I would play it. Right now my Barbarian uses a falchion for 2D4 + 20 with a crit on 15-20 (using power attack).
I don't see the Brutal Pugilist getting anywhere near that good. Please correct if I am wrong. I have not recieved my copy yet.
You're mixing up two things.
There are a couple of rage powers called "Brawler" and "Greater Brawler" that give you a better unarmed attack and TWF with unarmed attacks (respectively) while raging. If you have Improved Unarmed Strike already (which allows you to do lethal or nonlethal damage, as you choose), then "Brawler" increases your unarmed strike damage to 1d6.
And there's a barbarian archetype called "Brutal Pugilist" that gives a few minor bonuses to grapple and other combat maneuvers.
Honestly, Paizo is an American company, and if they named something Naked Barbarian ... you know the rest, nipples and stuff.
the Savage barbarian has to do with being naked and the Savage Warrior fighter has to do with using natural weapons and the Savage Skald bard has to do with being a barbarian :-)[/list]
Oh I don't know, I'd sign on pretty quick to that concept if Amiri was the archetype...
yes it can be done but my problem is the unarmed damage, i want to have an unarmed damage that can be compared to a monk
You can already do this, though not with a Barbarian (it's the only full BAB class you can't do it with, though).
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Dumb question. Is the 1D6 lethal damage?
Also, does it become magic later? If not, I would agree it might be useless at higher levels.
EDIT: The more I think about it, the less likely I would play it. Right now my Barbarian uses a falchion for 2D4 + 20 with a crit on 15-20 (using power attack).
I don't see the Brutal Pugilist getting anywhere near that good. Please correct if I am wrong. I have not recieved my copy yet.
You're mixing up two things.
There are a couple of rage powers called "Brawler" and "Greater Brawler" that give you a better unarmed attack and TWF with unarmed attacks (respectively) while raging. If you have Improved Unarmed Strike already (which allows you to do lethal or nonlethal damage, as you choose), then "Brawler" increases your unarmed strike damage to 1d6.
And there's a barbarian archetype called "Brutal Pugilist" that gives a few minor bonuses to grapple and other combat maneuvers.
Thanks for the claification. Those rage powers must be in the advanced players guide, which I have still not had ship from Amazon yet.
This campaign, I decided to create the Incredible Hulk as best I could using a Half Orc Barbarian. I was hoping that I could use the APG to allow me to use his fists instead of the Falchion he currently uses, but don't really see that as an option at the moment. I can't wait to see the rest of the book, though.
Just to add to this, I`m pretty sure PRPG removed the size restrictions for Grappling
(big and strong creatures are just really hard to grapple, even with the halved Size Mod)
which makes the RAW of this variant Barbarian ability somewhat pointless.
If we INTERPRET the wording in the light of PRPG`s approach to combat maneuvers,
I would say that such variant Barbarians should calculate their CMB and CMD as if they were one Size Category larger than they actually are, which would `stack` with Enlarge Person, etc.
Yeah this is weird, but true. (This isn't the only instance it has happened where new rules blur or blend the rules of 3.5 and PFRPG.) A good fix would be to add it back into the grapple rules in the core rulebook.
OP: to add, think about how powers like Knockback, Knockdown and Strenght Surge mix with the archetype.
Underwhelming? It becomes very cinematic..
I see these two archetypes still fighting predominantly with weapons but with the option of having great skill in mixing it up with their bare hands too. For the most part, it fits what it's supposed to do for my tastes.
OP: to add, think about how powers like Knockback, Knockdown and Strenght Surge mix with the archetype.
Underwhelming? It becomes very cinematic..
i don't disagree with that my problem comes from the fact that from the time the barbarian picks up the brawler powers all the way to 20th level he will only be doing 1d6 unarmed damage +str mod.
im not saying it should get as high as the monks but even if they had made 3 brawler powers and each one improved their damage dice by one step plus some other bonus then i would have been happy but it is just one increase if they have the improved unarmed strike feat and it is only 1d6
Yeah this is weird, but true. (This isn't the only instance it has happened where new rules blur or blend the rules of 3.5 and PFRPG.) A good fix would be to add it back into the grapple rules in the core rulebook.Just to add to this, I`m pretty sure PRPG removed the size restrictions for Grappling
(big and strong creatures are just really hard to grapple, even with the halved Size Mod)
which makes the RAW of this variant Barbarian ability somewhat pointless.
If we INTERPRET the wording in the light of PRPG`s approach to combat maneuvers,
I would say that such variant Barbarians should calculate their CMB and CMD as if they were one Size Category larger than they actually are, which would `stack` with Enlarge Person, etc.
Well, I do think it was quite an intended change (removing size restriction on Grapples), so I don´t think that´s going to fly...
I forgot to mention that there ARE still size restrictions for GRAB, which the current wording should still be effective against - with Enlarge Person + this ability (i.e. Human Barb counts as Huge Size), it will be alot easier to negate the 2 size category difference required for Grab to work (so only Colossal creatures can Grab you). ...And removing Grab from Team Monster´s tactics is a pretty signifigant benefit. That said, also bumping your CMB/CMD +1 (or more if you started out big or really small) seems very reasonable for this ability to do.
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About the ¨Brawler¨ Rage Power, if somebody has taken a level of Monk (good deal if you want Improved Grapple), would the damage increase stack, i.e. d6->d8 Medium ->2d6 (Enlarged)?
Barbarian with Alchemist (Mutagen focus / ¨Dr Jekyll Mr Hyde¨ PrC) seems like a good way to get close to Incredible Hulk with PC classes (though that kind of gets to the point: maybe a template would better approximate the Hulk than mucking with Classes not meant for the task)
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Well, I do think it was quite an intended change (removing size restriction on Grapples), so I don´t think that´s going to fly...
I forgot to mention that there ARE still size restrictions for GRAB, which the current wording should still be effective against - with Enlarge Person + this ability (i.e. Human Barb counts as Huge Size), it will be alot easier to negate the 2 size category difference required for Grab to work (so only Colossal creatures can Grab you). That said, also bumping your CMB/CMD +1 (or more if you started out big or really small) seems very reasonable for this ability to do.
...I also think the 1/rage limitation on the new Trip rage power (knockdown) is wierd when compared with Knockback in Core (1/round), but then again: they can be combined in one turn/round, taking care of multiple enemies, AND bullrush doesn´t NECESSARILY leave them prone (though it can do so situationally, or do worse effects e.g. close to cliffs).
Anyhow, unfortunately I won´t be buying the APG seeing how many Errors it has, at least for several new printings... Which is especially sad given that the Core rules are still waiting on a significant Errata update.
I'm not convinced it was intended: you can't trip or push around a creature two or more size categories larger than you, but you can wrestle them to the ground? I think it is more an oversight when the the core rules were written which didn't matter (because of the results of the grappling rules when put into practice)… until now.
I agree somewhat with you on the inconsistent language of the knockback/knockdown rage powers. However, I do think it's neccessary to maintain the difference because IMO, tripping is overall better than bullrushing. The former seems more flexible to me whereas the latter is more situational (ex: combat near a cliff). I could be convinced otherwise however (ex: full attacking barbarian uses last iterative to bullrush opponent away, denying said opponent a return full attack… is this tactic reliable?)
I also have reservations about having bought the APG for the same reasons. There is alot that could have been clarified better. OTOH, it is great for inspiration for modeling coming up with your own house-ruled versions of alot of the abilities within.
im not saying it should get as high as the monks but even if they had made 3 brawler powers and each one improved their damage dice by one step plus some other bonus then i would have been happy but it is just one increase if they have the improved unarmed strike feat and it is only 1d6
My point is that the d6 is not that much if you add in the power attack from full BAB, the huge strenght and all the rage powers that can make the barbarian able to do awesome things.
Adding moar dice on the top of this COULD be too much (even if fists are more difficult to enchant).
OP: to add, think about how powers like Knockback, Knockdown and Strenght Surge mix with the archetype.
Underwhelming? It becomes very cinematic..
i don't disagree with that my problem comes from the fact that from the time the barbarian picks up the brawler powers all the way to 20th level he will only be doing 1d6 unarmed damage +str mod.
im not saying it should get as high as the monks but even if they had made 3 brawler powers and each one improved their damage dice by one step plus some other bonus then i would have been happy but it is just one increase if they have the improved unarmed strike feat and it is only 1d6
The damage die is lower sure, but the barbarian brings lots to the table the monk doesnt. First of all it will have a considerably higher strength, especially when raging. That alone will make up the difference in the damage die. Add that to some of the new barb rage powers (like pounce) and you have something the monk is supposed to be but fails at, a mobile unarmed fighting machine. The damage die isnt everything you know. Power attack + 6-10 points more in strength + pounce > higher damage die anyday.
you do know that sneak attack can work with any weapon not just light weapons, if you wanted to you could be doing 2d6 base damage not counting your sneak attack damage
you do know that sneak attack can work with any weapon not just light weapons, if you wanted to you could be doing 2d6 base damage not counting your sneak attack damageTWF.
got ya
Barbarian with Alchemist (Mutagen focus / ¨Dr Jekyll Mr Hyde¨ PrC) seems like a good way to get close to Incredible Hulk with PC classes (though that kind of gets to the point: maybe a template would better approximate the Hulk than mucking with Classes not meant for the task)
I generated a sample level 6 character (Bbn 4/Alc 2) to see what I could come up with. I have him fully buffed here, which he can do as a standard action (drink mutagen), free action (rage), and move action (drink enlarge person extract). He'd only have the benefits for a short period, but that's life. He's got terrible AC and a non-existent Will save, but he can do around 75 damage per round and has a decent shot at grappling most anything between CR 6 and 10.
THE HULK
Male Human Alchemist 2 Barbarian (Brutal Pugilist, Drunken Brute) 4
CG Large Humanoid (Human)
Init +1; Perception +9
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DEFENSE
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AC 15, touch 6, flat-footed 13 (+7 armor, +1 Dex, +2 natural, -1 size)
hp 63 (4d12+2d8+26)
Fort +11, Ref +5, Will +3
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OFFENSE
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Spd 30 ft.
Melee Bite +13 (2d6+13), 2x Claw +13 (1d8+13), and Gore +13 (2d6+13)
Ranged Bomb +6 (1d6+1 fire, splash, 3/day)
Alchemist Spells Known
1st (3/day) Enlarge Person (cast), Enlarge Person, Expeditious Retreat
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STATISTICS
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Str 27, Dex 13, Con 18, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 8
Base Atk +5; CMB +13 (+16 Grappling); CMD 21 (23 vs. Grapple)
Reach 10 ft.
Feats Brew Potion, Intimidating Prowess, Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack +4/-2, Throw Anything
Skills Acrobatics +9, Craft: Alchemy +10, Disable Device +9, Intimidate +19, Knowledge: Arcana +10, Perception +9, Spellcraft +10
Languages Common, Dwarven, Orc
SQ Feral Mutagen (Su), Mutagen (DC 12) (Su), Pit Fighter +1: Grapple, Poison Use, Rage (12 rounds/day) (Ex), Raging Drunk (Ex), Reckless Abandon (+/-2) (Ex), Savage Grapple (Ex)
Gear +1 Mithral Chainmail; Gear Amulet of Mighty Fists +1
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IN PLAY ADJUSTMENTS
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Raging: +4 Str/Con, -2 AC, gain gore attack (1d8, primary), can drink as a move action
Feral Mutagen: +4 Str, -2 Int, +2 AC, gain 2 claws (1d6, primary) and bite (1d8, primary)
Power Attack: -2 Hit, +4 Damage
Reckless Abandon: -2 AC, +2 Hit
Savage Grapple: Half grapple penalties while grappling, enemies always provoke AoO when attempting to grapple
Enlarge Person: +2 Str, -2 Dex, -1 Hit/AC, double reach, increase damage
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got yayou do know that sneak attack can work with any weapon not just light weapons, if you wanted to you could be doing 2d6 base damage not counting your sneak attack damageTWF.
There's also the Improved Natural Attack feat, which if I remember correctly monks cannot take. Or rather, they can take it but it doesn't stack with unarmed monk damage.
So that's 1d8, which is longsword territory, and you'd have it at level 3-ish. The monk doesn't pass that until 8th level. In all honesty, how many games / characters have you played above 8th level for any length of time?
Plus, you are a barbarian, getting massive bonuses to Strength and Con, while the monk gets no class bonuses to ability scores and has to manage Strength, Con, and Wisdom, and can't entirely dump Int and Dex either.
On paper, it looks like the monk hits harder. In reality, in an actual game, I think the brawler barbarian would keep pace nicely.
Brawler and Greater Brawler are rage powers without level prerequisites, each one basically gives you a feat related with unarmed strikes, which is more than what some rage powers for 2nd and 4th level barbarians do .
Making a new build around that seems difficult, but how can you do any character build based on two rage powers for low level characters? Maybe similar powers for higher levels would be a nice contribution, but the current powers are ok.
I'm disappointed too, I agree that there are few options for unarmed barbarians, at least you have a lot of options for Combat Maneuvers and you can transform your hands into claws :S
Not underwhelmed, just inexistant.
The most lethal/effective unarmed guy is *still* the PF Fighter, striaght classed, though. Especially with the brass knuckles in play (ie: one of each material type).
He gets the MOST damage bonus and to hit bonus of every class. Just make his initial weapon training be in "unarmed" (I, as a generous GM would apply these bonuses to grapples as well, mind you). He can take the Wpn. Focus/Specialization for this as well and become even MORE vicious. Use a few "keen" weapon low level spells or wands or potions/oils/whatever on the knuckles (I believe APG has a crushing/blunt version, no? If not, 3.x has plenty of such things you can drop right in to make it happen) and you got a better crit-range. Hit that weapon master level 20 thing and it's nutty how much BETTER the fighter will be than a similarly designed monk in damage output.
Plus, he can take all of those monk feats (sure, he has to follow the progression), so he can Stunning Fist and Medusae's Wrath a target big-time, and pick up the TWF tree to get that (better as he can even take the defensive ones). If he *wants* to, he'll probably have a higher overall AC and HP on top of it on account of Armor Training benefits, etc.
Toss in a smattering of 3.x, and he can pick up Armor Specialization to get even more DR than Armor Mastery grants already. Use adamantine armor, and it's just even more disgusting. If you want a *really* effective brawler guy (note - I'm w/you on the critisism of nothing specifically FOR such a concept), the best answer is the fighter - you just turn him on his head a little bit and forcibly re-forge it into an "unarmed striking expert" and that's what you have there.
He's not gonna be all Crouching Tiger or anything (though I'm sure feats exist out there - not coming CLOSE to the Ki Pool boons, though), but he'll punch/kick/choke the HELL out of any other competitors. PLUS, with that DR access and options, he'll even soak damage up front compared to everyone else.
Just pointing it out for you is all ... ;-)
Really, just set down and look over the options (APG fighter options, too for the lighter/lightly armored types) and it'll start to fall into place nicely.
I think the problem is that when you think "unarmed" you don't immediately think "fighter's got that!" So (general "you" here - NOT addressing anyone specifically, and I include myself in that "you" as well) you're looking for "who doesn't fight w/weapons and does it really well?" The *only* answer that's in front of your face is the Monk. BUT .. if you do the research and run the #'s - the fighter ... well, he out-FIGHT's the monk at his "schtick" basically.
If you want the saves, I'm pretty sure the APG has something in there for better saves in the fighter builds as tradeoffs (generally for the TERRIBLE Bravery thing - still don't like that as a feature - AT ALL), so that's one way to address it. Then there's STILL fact of Fighters being the feat-kings of the game, so you can invest in the 2 feats to get a +2 and then a re-roll of a failed save determined to be "weak" by you. Then the cloak of resistance and the like, etc, etc, etc.
i don't disagree with that my problem comes from the fact that from the time the barbarian picks up the brawler powers all the way to 20th level he will only be doing 1d6 unarmed damage +str mod.
im not saying it should get as high as the monks but even if they had made 3 brawler powers and each one improved their damage dice by one step plus some other bonus then i would have been happy but it is just one increase if they have the improved unarmed strike feat and it is only 1d6
Look at it this way. His punching ability does not come from his "martial artist training", this is why his dice is only a 1d6. The power behind his punches come from his raw strength. He's about hitting hard using his Strength, not using martial moves. The damage dice pales in signifacent compared to the strength bonus and other flat bonuses as you go up in the levels on a martial class (rogues being an exception).
Really, the focus shouldn't be on the unarmed strike damage dice, but the damage bonuses you can pile up on it.
Just to add to this, I`m pretty sure PRPG removed the size restrictions for Grappling
(big and strong creatures are just really hard to grapple, even with the halved Size Mod)
which makes the RAW of this variant Barbarian ability somewhat pointless.
I've noted this for the APG errata.
Stupid question but if you have brawler and improved unarmed strike is your damage 1d6 only when you are raging or all the time?
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I don't see the problem. The Brutal Pugilist is the penultimate grappler character in the game now. Skip the brawler rage power and wear a monk's robe if you don't want 1d6 damage as a class ability. Personally, the elemental lesser and normal are a better bet-- +1d6 damage all of the time is not bad, especially when you could stack it up with an amulet of mighty fists holy, or mighty fists vicious and holy.
Things of note:
A brutal pugilist can grapple huge creatures at level five, or gargantuan creatures with an enlarge person.
A brutal pugilist with the knockback rage power is, barring low attack rolls, immune to grapple effects. Whenever an enemy grapples, they provoke. Knock back! If you don't push them 10 feet, you still get a +2 on CMD vs grapple. Grappling you does not stop you from pummeling an enemy mercilessly.Brutal pugilist at 7th level:
+4 strength
+7 BAB
+1 enhancement
+2 rage
+2 Improved Grapple
+2 Greater Grapple
+2 Pit Fighter
= +20 to grapple when raging. 30+dex+misc CMD.A 7th-level brutal pugilist can grapple down a stegosaur on an 11. Whoa! What about like, higher levels... ? Maybe some bonus stacking...
12th level brutal pugilist with reckless abandon, strong jaw on his hands, wand of enlarge person and a wand of lockjaw:
+5 strength
+12 BAB
+3 enhancement
+3 rage
+2 Improved Grapple
+2 Greater Grapple
+2 Pit Fighter
+4 reckless abandon
+4 lockjaw
+1 size
+2 animal fury
= +40 to grapple on a bite, and then you can continue to unarmed strike them. At no penalty. They're grappled, you're not, have a nice day. I love Lock Jaw!
39+dex+misc CMD as well. I would like to say... +2deflect+3dex 44 CMD. That's assuming whatever grapples you isn't hit by knockback and shoved away. If they aren't, and you hit, 46.Your strikes are +26/+26/+22/+17 for 1d8>2d6>3d6>3d8(?)+10+2d6+2d6+1d6 and optional +1d6 swift 1/rage, and 1d6 to yourself-- but your DR is 2/-, so max 4 damage vs. your avg. 170 hp. You could power attack for more damage if you wanted to drop your...
Holy moly, I want to play this...