There are rings of swimming and jumping, right? Is it conceivable to craft an amulet that gives a +10 competence bonus to spellcraft checks?
Does a skill enhancing item need to be a ring?
Is giving a bonus to spellcraft an unreasonable idea?
Comments/ opinions?
Personally, I greatly dislike direct bonuses on skills from items ( and I don't mean per attribute enhancing items ). There already exist some of them and they can buff very important skills to extraordinarily high levels, and by "important skills" I mean Stealth.
The Rings of Jumping, Climbing and Swimming are acceptable to me, since they do not result in possibly gamebreaking characters, but Spellcraft would be one of the skills I wouldn't like to see an enhancer for, since it actually is a critical skill for another possibly gamebreaking effect ( cheap magic items from item crafting ).
There are rings of swimming and jumping, right? Is it conceivable to craft an amulet that gives a +10 competence bonus to spellcraft checks?
Sure.
Does a skill enhancing item need to be a ring?
Nope. Rings are kinda the default item, but Elven cloaks and boots, for example, give a skill bonus tied to non-ring items. Armor can give certain skill bonuses, as well.
Is giving a bonus to spellcraft an unreasonable idea?
Well, now that's the question. An item that grants +2 to most craft skills costs 55 gp. The same +2 on disable device costs 100 gp. +2 on Craft: Alchemy costs 200 gp and weighs 40#. Spellcraft allows for the construction of magic items, among other uses, which makes it pretty powerful, at least on par with a bonus to Craft: Alchemy.
If a player wanted a "lab/library" that granted a bonus to spellcraft (but couldn't be lugged around easily), then I'd say okay, but at double the formula cost. The player could use the bonus for most purposes, but wouldn't be able to take it adventuring with him/her. That and the increased cost seems fair to me. Cost = 20K for a +10 "lab/library".
If a player wanted an item to wear that would be useful ALL the time, including while adventuring, I'd still say yes, but would double the cost again, since now the item has all the functionality of the "lab," but could also be used on the road or during combat. The price for such an item would be 40K gp (at+10).
Comments/ opinions?
All of the above is entirely subjective, however. It's really up to each DM. I might also decide (as DM) that determining the relative value of bonuses to various skills just wasn't worth the time or hassle (and potential hurt feelings) and stick to the formula in the Core Rules for all skill bonus items. I doubt very seriously that doing so would break a game.
Hope this helps.
PS: It occurs to me that I didn't answer the, "Is it unreasonable" part of your post. In my opinion, no. There's nothing more unreasonable about a character with a very high Spellcraft skill than there is about a character with a very high Perception skill, Stealth skill, or Survival skill. High skills can render some challenges moot, but, meh, magic always does that anyway. I wouldn't worry about it too much.
Again, Hope this helps.
the price for these is bonus^2 *100 gold. This is from Table 15-29. I do not see an issue with these, you can even double the price to have it not take up an item slot (ioun stone or luck charm like thing).
I routinely make items that give a small bonus to skills that I use all the time, perception, UMD, spellcraft. Remember that since this is a competence bonus the bonus won't stack with many other effects. Also though it is not specifically mentioned anywhere I can find I limit the bonus to the caster level of the item. So in order to make a +5 to acrobatics item I would require the creator to be at least 5th level.
Magnuskn, how would you make cheaper items with a bonus to spellcraft? a wizard with full ranks in spellcraft should be able to make any item at their caster level by taking 10 on the check, even if they increase the DC by 5 or 10 (assume a 10th level wizard, 24 INT should have at least +20 to spellcraft before adding in skill focus. the DC is only 5 + caster level of the item, which cannot exceed your caster level so an average wizard can take 10 to make an item while missing 3 of the prereq spells) so it does not really break anything. The only skill I could see it being a problem for would be UMD, basically make a bunch of +15 to UMD items and hand them out, now the whole party can use wands and scrolls with only 1 or 2 ranks in the skill, but I don't really even see that as anything more than a little goofy. Certainly nothing game breaking (especially considering they are 22,500 GP each).
the price for these is bonus^2 *100 gold. This is from Table 15-29. I do not see an issue with these, you can even double the price to have it not take up an item slot (ioun stone or luck charm like thing).
I routinely make items that give a small bonus to skills that I use all the time, perception, UMD, spellcraft. Remember that since this is a competence bonus the bonus won't stack with many other effects. Also though it is not specifically mentioned anywhere I can find I limit the bonus to the caster level of the item. So in order to make a +5 to acrobatics item I would require the creator to be at least 5th level.
I'd be a bit more strict and require Skill Ranks in skill = bonus, personally. That would be 5 ranks in Acrobatics to make a magic item granting a +5 on Acrobatics checks.
Magnuskn, how would you make cheaper items with a bonus to spellcraft?
Masterwork items, probably. However, these are limited to a +2 bonus on skill checks, as a rule of thumb. Also, I think you meant Mynameisjake.
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Not sure who is responding to whom, but wanted to comment on the bolded portions.
(1) Magnuskn, how would you make cheaper items with a bonus to spellcraft? a wizard with full ranks in spellcraft should be able to make any item at their caster level by taking 10 on the check, even if they increase the DC by 5 or 10 (assume a 10th level wizard, 24 INT should have at least +20 to spellcraft before adding in skill focus. the DC is only 5 + caster level of the item, (2) which cannot exceed your caster level so an average wizard can take 10 to make an item while missing 3 of the prereq spells) so it does not really break anything. The only skill I could see it being a problem for would be UMD, basically make a bunch of +15 to UMD items and hand them out, now the whole party can use wands and scrolls with only 1 or 2 ranks in the skill, but I don't really even see that as anything more than a little goofy. Certainly nothing game breaking (especially considering they are 22,500 GP each).
(1) I allow a skill item for just about every skill if I can justify it at all. I'll post my standard list of items, with restrictions, below.
(2) That is a house rule, right? 'Cause I'm pretty sure the CL of an item only adds to the Spellcraft roll. The crafter of, say, a Pearl of Power (CL 17) doesn't have to be at least 17th level before he/she can make one. At least, not by my reading of the rules.
My Skill Items List:
Masterwork Items List
Notes: All items grant a +2 circumstances bonus to the listed skill. NC (noncombat) denotes manuals or books that must be consulted, and, therefore, in general, can only be used out of combat. "Study" denotes items that require 1 hr of uninterrupted study at the beginning of each day in order to receive the bonus.
Calfskin Boots: Acrobatics, 100 gp.
Jeweler's Loop: Appraise, 50 gp.
Liar, Liar Pants on Fire (Book): Bluff, 100 gp (Study).
I'm Okay, You're Okay (Book): Diplomacy, 100 gp (Study).
Aerodynamics and You (Book): Fly, 100 gp (Study).
Evil Ink (Tatoos, facial): Intimidate, 100 gp (requires target to have sight).
I'm Okay, You're a Dead Man (Book): Intimidate, 100 gp (Study)
Manuals (All NC):
Encyclopedia Arcana: Know (Arcane), 100 gp.
Spelunker's Manual: Know (Dungeoneering), 50 gp.
Think Like a Dwarf: Know (Engineering), 50 gp.
Oh, The Places You'll Go: Know (Geography), 50 gp.
History of the World, Part One: Know (History), 50 gp.
Fitting In- A Guide to Going Native: Know (Local), 50 gp.
On the Origin of Species: Know (Nature), 50 gp.
Blue Blood, Black Hearts: Know (Nobility), 50 gp.
LSD and You: Know (Planes), 50 gp.
Atheist's Guide to Myths and Superstitions: Know (Religion), 50 gp.
Reading, Writing, and Runes (Book): Linguistics, 50 gp. NC (Does not grant additional languages).
Vocational Guides: Profession (Any One), 50 gp.
Big Book of Tells (Manual): Sense Motive, 100 gp (Study).
Calfskin Gloves: Sleight of Hand, 100 gp.
Eldritch Wizardry (Manual): Spellcraft, 200 gp NC.
Smuggler's Cloak: Stealth, 100 gp.
Scout's Manual (Manual): Survival, 100 gp NC.
Common Passwords and Cyphers: UMD, 100 gp NC.
Magnuskn, how would you make cheaper items with a bonus to spellcraft?Masterwork items, probably. However, these are limited to a +2 bonus on skill checks, as a rule of thumb. Also, I think you meant Mynameisjake.
Actually, Magnuskn mentioned that he wouldn't allow skill bonus items for Spellcraft because it would mean cheaper magic items. While a spellcraft item might allow a player to make items he or she couldn't make without one, a valid concern, if you follow the WBL in awarding treasure, it's only a slight increase in potential power for the party. At least, that's been my experience. Different players might cause different results.
Those would be masterwork type items. The price I quoted is for magical items.
I was responding to magnuskn when he said that he would not want an item that gives a bonus to spellcraft.
As far as the pearl of power, you do need to meet the caster level requirement. The only requirements that you can skip out on is the things listed in the requirements section (the only ones in there you cannot ignore is the craft feat) and each of these that you ignore increases the spellcraft DC by 5. These are almost always spells that are needed to craft the item, but sometimes they are racial requirements and if you were to require a specific number of skill ranks it would go into that section as well. Which means that you could ignore the skill rank requirement by increasing the craft DC by 5. My rule of saying that the item should not have a higher skill bonus than your caster level is a house rule specifically to avoid ridiculous skill bonuses at lower levels, though this still is not incredibly game breaking. It is also proven wrong by the game itself, if you look at the cloak of elvenkind it only requires a 3rd level caster but gives a +5 bonus.
I did think of another skill that may unbalance things a bit: diplomacy.
With no limit on the caster level you could spend the entire wealth by level of a 20th level character on a +93 to diplomacy item (864,900 gold). Then a rushed diplomacy check will succeed every time no matter the disposition. Couple that with just putting ranks into linguistics every level or being a monk (tongue of the sun and moon) and you can communicate with every living thing and it takes you 6 seconds to become their best friend ever.
Edit: re-reading things I actually think you may be right about the caster level requirement being able to be skipped. Thought it was one you could not skip. Well, great news for my kingmaker illusionist and his +20 to spellcraft at 7th level...
Now you know why I call Bards and Sorcs diplomancers.
Better than in 3.5. Thanks to synergy bonuses a bard could get some ridiculous diplomacy checks at only second level
If I remember right you had:
+18 (5 ranks + 4 charisma + 2 knowledge nobility + 2 bluff + 3 skill focus + 2 persuasive)
That is 2nd level with two feats and no magic items assuming an 18 charisma. Add in items once you start getting some scratch together and you could talk your way out of anything... then again that same build in pathfinder would only be at +14 at first level but get an additional +5 at 10th, so pathfinder in the end gives the higher bonus.
Magnuskn, how would you make cheaper items with a bonus to spellcraft? a wizard with full ranks in spellcraft should be able to make any item at their caster level by taking 10 on the check, even if they increase the DC by 5 or 10 (assume a 10th level wizard, 24 INT should have at least +20 to spellcraft before adding in skill focus. the DC is only 5 + caster level of the item, which cannot exceed your caster level so an average wizard can take 10 to make an item while missing 3 of the prereq spells) so it does not really break anything. The only skill I could see it being a problem for would be UMD, basically make a bunch of +15 to UMD items and hand them out, now the whole party can use wands and scrolls with only 1 or 2 ranks in the skill, but I don't really even see that as anything more than a little goofy. Certainly nothing game breaking (especially considering they are 22,500 GP each).
The general problem is that item creation feats can severely unbalance a campaign, if the campaign gives enough time for the crafter to do his thing. I am DM'ing now CotCT, which has a built-in time limit, so it isn't affecting me as much, but my next campaign will be Kingmaker, which let's the players pace themselves for the most part.
A Spellcraft enhancer lets the crafter circumvent some of the limitations of the more difficult checks: Shaving off time, building items without prerequisites. It's bad enough that the whole party will be equipped way over their level, but if they also can easily build things which should be way beyond them ( think +5 stat increase books ), then this is going to tip the balance very quickly.
Also, in my campaign I don't let casters take 10 on their crafting checks, since a mayor element of danger is involved, i.e. crafting a cursed item.
Actually, Magnuskn mentioned that he wouldn't allow skill bonus items for Spellcraft because it would mean cheaper magic items. While a spellcraft item might allow a player to make items he or she couldn't make without one, a valid concern, if you follow the WBL in awarding treasure, it's only a slight increase in potential power for the party. At least, that's been my experience. Different players might cause different results.
I can't really agree. I've gone through CotCT and Kingmaker and added together the collective value of the loot ( Magic Items at 50% price, valuables at 100% )... it comes out almost 100% correctly for a five man party at their respective levels. Although mostly the really valuable stuff "drops" at the end of the AP module.
Having massive item crafting means that the players can be at up to 200% efficiency for their magic items. This does concern me, since I don't really want to rewrite the whole AP stat blocks.
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All in all, my mayor concern isn't even Spellcraft, but rather Stealth, since a twinked out Stealth character is very difficult to handle for a GM.
Having massive item crafting means that the players can be at up to 200% efficiency for their magic items. This does concern me, since I don't really want to rewrite the whole AP stat blocks.
Not really. Usually not even close. Unless you are in the habit of giving out treasure as huge piles of gold and platinum coins. Because, unless you do that, most of your characters' wealth will be tied up in other gear.
Consider the Wealth-by-Level guidelines. Yes, I know, they're just guidelines, but it does give us a starting point to examine character wealth from a known baseline.
A 15th level character should have around 240,000 GP of wealth. This should be roughly distributed as follows: 25% of their wealth on weapons, 25% on armor and protective devices, 25% on other magic items, 15% on disposable items like potions, scrolls, and wands, and 10% on ordinary gear and coins.
That works out to:
60,000 on weapons (50,000gpv +5 longsword and a smaller backup weapon)
60,000 on armor and protection
60,000 on other magic like bags of holding or wings of flying or Tomes
36,000 on wands & potions
24,000 in coin
So, this guy could take his 24,000 and craft a magic item worth 48,000 gp. If he does that, his net wealth will go up by 10% from 240,000 gp to 264,000 gp.
That is a long way from "200% efficiency".
And that is the best he can do.
Suppose he decides he wants a better sword. He currently has a +5 longsword and now he wants a +5 Keen longsword. The price difference is 22,000 gold. That will cost him nearly all of his coin if he goes to the local enchanter and asks the guy to enchant it for him. Or, if he asks the party wizard to do it, it will probably only cost him 11,000. His net wealth will increase by less than 5% if he does that. That is even farther away from "200% efficiency".
And if he decides he wants a +5 Keen greatsword instead, well, he's in trouble. He can sell his +5 longsword for 25,000 and buy the +5 Keen greatsword for 72,000. That will cost him 47,000 gold. He only has 24,000, so he has to sell something else, like maybe his +5 full platemail, but that's only worth 12,500, so he also has to sell his +5 shield for another 12,500, and now he can afford his +5 Keen greatsword and he still has 3,000 gp left over, maybe to buy +1 Full Plate and a +1 shield so he won't have to go to the dungeon naked.
Since that would be suicidal, he turns to the party wizard again. The Party wizard can make the +5 Keen greatsword for just 36,000 gp. After the fighter sells his +5 longsword for 25,000 and kicks in 11,000 of his own gold, it's as good as done (72 days later, of course).
Net effect:
82,000 on weapons (72,000gpv +5 Keen greatsword and a smaller backup weapon)
60,000 on armor and protection
60,000 on other magic like bags of holding or wings of flying or Tomes
36,000 on wands & potions
13,000 in coin
Total of 251,000 - the character gained 11,000 GP (less than 5%) net wealth, still a long way from "200% efficiency".
Even if he does that again with his armor and again with his shield, he will still be under 10% wealth gain, and he will have only 1,000 GP left in his wallet. He no more coin to spend to upgrade gear, so the next upgrade will have to be financed by selling other gear to pay for it (which I demonstrated is less than efficient - the best he can hope for is to trade one item at half price for a different item at half price if his wizard friend crafts it for him).
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The only guy who can get "200% efficiency" is the 15th level character with this wealth distribution:
0 on weapons
0 on armor and protection
0 on other magic like bags of holding or wings of flying or Tomes
0 on wands & potions
240,000 in coin
Now, this guy could go to his wizard buddy and ask him to whip up 480,000 gp worth of magic items for him. Assuming they have a year and a half to work on this stuff, our example character will have achieved the "200 efficiency" that you spoke of.
Of course, that means that before he does this, he is a 15th level character who has no magic. Zip. Nada. None. Not even a potion of cure light wounds. Somehow he is exploring dungeons, fighting monsters, and gaining 14 levels, and never once did he ever find a magic item. Instead, he found at least 24,000 platinum pieces and a horse and cart to carry it around.
Not a very likely scenario. It's hard to imagine that such a character could exist.
Yes, I know, the perfect wealth-by-level distribution that I quoted from the Core rulebook probably won't exist (perfectly) either. However, since the game is geared toward that distribution, and since we're talking about an AP (CotCT and Kingmaker have been mentioned), it's probably safer to assume that most characters will be a whole lot closer to the perfect WBL distribution than to assume then will have 240,000 gp laying around in lose coin.
Consequently, I am not the least bit afraid of players crafting their way to being much more than about 110% efficiency, give or take.
The +5 stat books are the least of your worries with creating magic items.
Since the cost of these is based on Wish the major factor in it is the 25k components for casting which they do NOT get a discount on. There is very little to be saved making your own books.
Price 27,500 gp (+1), 55,000 gp (+2), 82,500 gp (+3), 110,000 gp (+4), 137,500 gp (+5); Weight 5 lbs.Cost 26,250 gp (+1), 52,500 gp (+2), 78,750 gp (+3), 105,000 gp (+4), 131,250 gp (+5)
Yeah, that was pointed out to me at approximately the same time you posted in another thread. Thanks nonetheless, I can't believe I missed that for months. >.<
Not really. Usually not even close. Unless you are in the habit of giving out treasure as huge piles of gold and platinum coins. Because, unless you do that, most of your characters' wealth will be tied up in other gear.
Consider the Wealth-by-Level guidelines. Yes, I know, they're just guidelines, but it does give us a starting point to examine character wealth from a known baseline.
A 15th level character should have around 240,000 GP of wealth. This should be roughly distributed as follows: 25% of their wealth on weapons, 25% on armor and protective devices, 25% on other magic items, 15% on disposable items like potions, scrolls, and wands, and 10% on ordinary gear and coins.
That works out to:
60,000 on weapons (50,000gpv +5 longsword and a smaller backup weapon)
60,000 on armor and protection
60,000 on other magic like bags of holding or wings of flying or Tomes
36,000 on wands & potions
24,000 in coinSo, this guy could take his 24,000 and craft a magic item worth 48,000 gp. If he does that, his net wealth will go up by 10% from 240,000 gp to 264,000 gp.
That is a long way from "200% efficiency".
And that is the best he can do.
First off, I said "up to 200% efficiency". Nobody will reach 200%, that's clear enough.
Secondly, I wasn't talking about the treasure of a generic Pathfinder campaign, I was very specifically talking about Curse of the Crimson Throne and Kingmaker. And what I noted in my post above is that I already put the money for selling magic items at 50% market value, while keeping goods ( jewelry, gems, etc. ) at 100%. Under these calculations five PC's will get approximately exactly the money they should at certain levels ( normally the ones where an AP module ends ). CotCT has a dry spell at module 4, which is ironed out aplenty in module 5.
Under these circumstances PC's could very easily sell everything and, if there is unlimited time to build magic items, approximate 200% on their magic item efficiency scale. It is very likely that they will keep some of the magic items, so that won't happen, but that doesn't exactly help, since a kept magic item is at 100% market value already.