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I suspect they're not going to get much of a return from people who played Dungeons and Dragons in the past. It was a much different game then it is today. It lacks any of the nostalgia that past editions would carry for them.
Their examples are at least consistent with what I'm seeing in the local game shops with like 4 or 5 people showing up.
I suspect they're not going to get much of a return from people who played Dungeons and Dragons in the past. It was a much different game then it is today. It lacks any of the nostalgia that past editions would carry for them.
That's kind of a silly statement to make, don't you think? Especially since we've seen numerous examples of older players coming back to the game and commenting on that very nostalgia you dismiss.
Their examples are at least consistent with what I'm seeing in the local game shops with like 4 or 5 people showing up.
How is that consistent? The store in the picture clearly has multiple groups. One of the guys running a store is quoted as calling the response overwhelming. I think you might be fishing for some confirmation, here.
Only three posts to ignite a skirmish? Excellent.
That's kind of a silly statement to make, don't you think? Especially since we've seen numerous examples of older players coming back to the game and commenting on that very nostalgia you dismiss.
Yeah, and we know that anecdotal evidence is the best evidence there is! :)
I think it's a cool idea and I like the Renown Point system. Would be cool to work that into a campaign to track a person's actual fame ...
The most refreshing thing about that story is there is not a trace of condesension from the reporter.
That I can read an intelligent article on CNN about my favorite hobby is light years ahead of the porrly written dreck I have read in local papers about the hobby over the last 3 decades.
The most refreshing thing about that story is there is not a trace of condesension from the reporter.
That I can read an intelligent article on CNN about my favorite hobby is light years ahead of the porrly written dreck I have read in local papers about the hobby over the last 3 decades.
I love the virginity comments below the article. I think somebody should develop a scientifically valid sample size and see if there is a correlation :)
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That's kind of a silly statement to make, don't you think? Especially since we've seen numerous examples of older players coming back to the game and commenting on that very nostalgia you dismiss.
And we also have numerous examples of older players coming back to the game and wondering what happened to the game they remember playing. KaeYoss has it about right of course. What is it about 4th edition that inspires nostalgia to you would be a better question?
How is that consistent? The store in the picture clearly has multiple groups. One of the guys running a store is quoted as calling the response overwhelming. I think you might be fishing for some confirmation, here.
The two game stores I frequent that are running it see about 3 or 4 players is all I meant. So their article seems consistent with what I see in shops.
OLIVA MUNN!!!
Alison Haislip is way hotter in my book.
Quote from article "I can whip up an Encounter in no time and players can be playing in about five minutes. In some ways, it plays out like a board game."
See now that wouldn't have attracted me back to D&D. Mixed bag article from my point of view.
S.
I'm gonna go ahead and link you to my post and discussion on this over at ENWorld.
Simply put, the commentary within the article is exactly what we need the non-D&D-playing crowd to see and read about the game. It makes it accessible and destigmatizes it.
I'm also a fan of catsclaw227's post in that same thread.
Really, making D&D out to be the best board game ever would be a pretty great image for the game to have for the world at large.
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Simply put, the commentary within the article is exactly what we need the non-D&D-playing crowd to see and read about the game. It makes it accessible and destigmatizes it.
Really, making D&D out to be the best board game ever would be a pretty great image for the game to have for the world at large.
Not disagreeing Scott. My comment was my personal view. It would not have attracted me "back". Sorry I was specifically answering the previous posts about old players returning to D&D. I've be haunting these boards long enough I think most would have seen my rants about use of miniatures - and comparing modern D&D to a "board-game" in non-polite terms.
More than likely marketing genius for attracting "new players however, especially given my local gaming store owner says that boardgames (see Flight of Fantasy games for some excellent examples) are on the rise in terms of sales.
S.
Well, I think you've hit the nail on the head - that quote isn't there for returning players as much as new players entirely. Not necessarily because board games are 'on the rise', but because the average person can relate to them - they know what they are, they understand them. D&D can be hard to explain to a potential new customer - "it is like a board game" has been a starting point for that explanation for years. Reading too much into it beyond that, I think, is unneceessary.
I don't know where you live, but I'd love to game with you sometime. I wish everyone on this board was as level-headed as you.
I guess if I wanted to recapture the moments, I would be playing 1E or 2E and GURPS, because it was always my opinion that 3.5 was based on the later. However, it is always good to see neutral or even positive reviews in regards to the hobby we all share. I am always dismayed when our hobby is potrayed with a broad brush stroke in regards to someone acting in a negative fashion.
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I'd like to see Paizo take a look at coming up with something like this. Something so streamlined that, if you just don't have the time, you can play whenever.
I guess dungeon crawls would be the only possible ways to play -- you could never get story if part of the gimmick is that you can make or miss sessions with no problem.
I also figure that the premade PCs would have to be reduced to just a couple numbers: To Hit, Defense, a Spell or two, the benefit of a Feat or two. . . .
Also, there'd have to be lots and lots and lots of published PreGen PCs, and they'd have to be designed with obvious stereotypes so new Players to the game could show up and the DM could say, "So, a sword-swinging fighter, huh? Would you rather be a strong brute swinging a giant axe or a really fast, hard to hit swashbuckler or a..."
It wouldn't be hard to categorize all the types of PCs. Someone says they want to cast spells you can show them the 4 different wizards and they can pick the one with the picture they like. They want a tank, show them the pictures of the 4 pure tanks. They like speed fighters or Ranger-types, whatever.
I would even venture to take it one step further, and add some interesting character traits to act out (to bring back the roleplaying), and modify the encounter based on those actions.
If I wanted something that simple for an RPG game I would just run Call of Cthulhu. Almost every adventure is a one shot and characters come and go (that is die) with great frequency. New characters can be inserted almost anywhere and it takes very little tiem to get up to speed on an adventure. Character creation is quick as well and almost every adventure comes with pre-generated characters.
Yeah but Call of Cuthulu adventures usually take more then two hours. They are also can't usually be described as fast paced fun. Finally the rule system is not really that quick in terms of being able to pick it up for a newb.
Call of Cuthulu is a great game but is in many ways a pretty advanced and more likely to appeal to RPG veterans. The best memories in Call of Cuthulu are usually about your arbitrary but truly chilling death.
Bringing new gamers - especially younger ones - into the hobby is never a bad thing.
Definitely nice to see an article in mainstream media that doesn't do the tongue-in-cheek thing, or overtly poke fun at the hobby. We need more like this, regardless of which system or tabletop RPG is the focus.
I totally agree with Dennis here. The BRP system is easily the most straightforward and intuitive of the major game systems for new gamers and on-the-fly roleplaying sessions with non-gamers.
"Here's your character. Everything you can do is listed as skills here on the right. The percentage is your character's chance of performing the action, and if you roll less than that number on these two dice, you are successful. I'll explain a few other things as we play, like damage and hit points, but let's get started!"
It really is that easy. And quite elegant. In my experience, that really is the extent of the opening conversation with new players. I also know it isn't quite as simple as I made out here, and it complicates just like any other game, but it really is that easy to get started with non-gamers. Sure beats explaining skill ranks, armor class, saving throws, attacks of opportunity, etc.
Cool article, btw. Exposure to new potential gamers can only be good, right?
I totally agree with Dennis here. The BRP system is easily the most straightforward and intuitive of the major game systems for new gamers and on-the-fly roleplaying sessions with non-gamers.
"Here's your character. Just about everything you can do is listed as skills here on the right. The listed percentage is your character's chance of performing the action, and if you roll less than that number on these two dice, you do it. Roll higher and you don't. I'll explain a few other things as we play, like damage and hit points, but let's get started!"
It really is that easy. And quite elegant. In my experience, that really is the extent of the opening conversation with new players. I also know it isn't quite as simple as I made out here, and it complicates just like any other game, but it really is that easy to get started with non-gamers. Sure beats explaining skill ranks, armor class and attacks of opportunity.
Cool article, btw. Exposure to new potential gamers can only be good, right?
Well the way I see it, I'd prefer it to the witchhunts/ignorance of the 80's...it took a long time to shrug off that mountain of BS.
Well the way I see it, I'd prefer it to the witchhunts/ignorance of the 80's...it took a long time to shrug off that mountain of BS.
Man, Amael, I can remember so well (growing up in very conservative Southeast Texas) the crap I had to put up with at school from other students and some of the brochures from the local churches that had screen-shots from the cartoon of "satanic pentagrams" on the castle walls and copies of Monster Manual devils as 'proof' that we were all worshiping the dark lord.
Once, my previously tolerant father showing up from his job at the refinery with some pamphlet a co-worker gave him about the "evils" of D&D. I think I was 10. After he lectured me for a few minutes and read some stuff off the pamphlet while telling me I couldn't play anymore, I ran upstairs, got a few books, and sat down and kind of gave him this full disclosure of what I was doing with my friends when we rolled dice and talked about dragons. He watched and listened, sort of muttered something like "Yeah, I though Bertrand was a little too religious" and told me I could keep playing.
Sad epilogue is that the guy who gave him that pamphlet is still estranged from his son, Tim, a classmate of mine, because of D&D. He caught him playing the game just after we got out of high school and "banished" him from their family. Tim's 36 now, for chrissakes. Sheesh.
Well the way I see it, I'd prefer it to the witchhunts/ignorance of the 80's...it took a long time to shrug off that mountain of BS.Man, Amael, I can remember so well (growing up in very conservative Southeast Texas) the crap I had to put up with at school from other students and some of the brochures from the local churches that had screen-shots from the cartoon of "satanic pentagrams" on the castle walls and copies of Monster Manual devils as 'proof' that we were all worshiping the dark lord.
Once, my previously tolerant father showing up from his job at the refinery with some pamphlet a co-worker gave him about the "evils" of D&D. I think I was 10. After he lectured me for a few minutes and read some stuff off the pamphlet while telling me I couldn't play anymore, I ran upstairs, got a few books, and sat down and kind of gave him this full disclosure of what I was doing with my friends when we rolled dice and talked about dragons. He watched and listened, sort of muttered something like "Yeah, I though Bertrand was a little too religious" and told me I could keep playing.
Sad epilogue is that the guy who gave him that pamphlet is still estranged from his son, Tim, a classmate of mine, because of D&D. He caught him playing the game just after we got out of high school and "banished" him from their family. Tim's 36 now, for chrissakes. Sheesh.
lol those were the days :) Thats pretty messed up though...
Thats cool that your dad wasn't caught up in the hype. To hear dnd/rpgs described as "like a board game" is much better then the alternative "tool of the devil" branding.
Board games are a tool of the devil! Play D&D instead!
Doh! I've been tricked! To think I was living a lie all this time...
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Well, obviously a really fast, no plot/ no prep game wouldn't be as good as the real deal, but for many who can't play anything at all because of their schedules, and those who can't play because of other gamers' schedules -- well, something like this is cool.
Also, if it is done a certain way, thematically compatible with Pathfinder, it could bring lots of non-gamers to the game and when they are ready to evolve to real roleplaying, our game will grow.
Well, I think you've hit the nail on the head - that quote isn't there for returning players as much as new players entirely. Not necessarily because board games are 'on the rise', but because the average person can relate to them - they know what they are, they understand them. D&D can be hard to explain to a potential new customer - "it is like a board game" has been a starting point for that explanation for years. Reading too much into it beyond that, I think, is unneceessary.I don't know where you live, but I'd love to game with you sometime. I wish everyone on this board was as level-headed as you.Hey, thanks for the kind words! (And I'll definitely acknowledge that I've had my moments of getting drawn into heated debates, and I'd like to credit a lot of the other posters on the boards for helping me learn to just turn away from such things.)
In any case, I'm off on the east coast, in Maryland. No idea how that stands for where you may be at, but if you are ever in the area - or at major conventions along the coast (like PAX East or DragonCon, which I occasionally attend), feel free to give a heads up!
I'll be in DC interning for the summer, starting tomorrow. If you ever end up with a day during the weekend free, I'd be happy to treat you to a beer somewhere nearby (I won't have a car, and I'm not familiar with the area). Cheers!
I know several old timers who started playing D&D again when 4E came out.
Imo, new editions should come out every 7-10 years or so, it seems to revive a lot of people into playing.
To hear dnd/rpgs described as "like a board game" is much better then the alternative "tool of the devil" branding.
That's what you say. Do you know the amount of explaining I had to do after my fellow Satanists read this crap?
"I thought you were out to corrupt the innocent like the rest of us, and now it turns out you were just playing a silly board game?"
I had to talk three of my fellow roleplayers into making a blood sacrifice to get back into the Inner Circle. And not all of them had beloved pets!
To hear dnd/rpgs described as "like a board game" is much better then the alternative "tool of the devil" branding.That's what you say. Do you know the amount of explaining I had to do after my fellow Satanists read this crap?
"I thought you were out to corrupt the innocent like the rest of us, and now it turns out you were just playing a silly board game?"
I had to talk three of my fellow roleplayers into making a blood sacrifice to get back into the Inner Circle. And not all of them had beloved pets!
Nice! :D
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All the free advertising for WOTC aside, 4E still has the very problem that drove gamers away. It requires an ever increasing investment in rulebooks for very little in the way of Gazetteers and thin on setting details Adventures. It is very unlike Pathfinder which has precisely the opposite - a huge array of adventures and Gazetteers and only a few core rulebooks.
WOTC needed to address these issues in a Big way from the get-go. H1 Keep on the Shadowfell has very little gazetteer information on the Community of Winterhaven (most vital would have been actual stats for the community residents the PCs do interact with) and very little comprehension of the fact that the 900+ farmers who live in its shadow would be farming and foresting as far out as the edges of the two square miles of map just to survive in their 'points of light' isolationst way of life despite the fact that it serves as the only gazetteer source for the region.
Intil we start to see a turn around on 4E will continue to have a low popularity with Old Gamers who expected better in the way of Setting.
Once WOTC starts producing Annual events Almanacs covering the communities that appear in the assorted regions and community Gazetteer, I suspect it will blow our minds.
To hear dnd/rpgs described as "like a board game" is much better then the alternative "tool of the devil" branding.That's what you say. Do you know the amount of explaining I had to do after my fellow Satanists read this crap?
"I thought you were out to corrupt the innocent like the rest of us, and now it turns out you were just playing a silly board game?"
I had to talk three of my fellow roleplayers into making a blood sacrifice to get back into the Inner Circle. And not all of them had beloved pets!
It's good to see that good old fashioned satanic values are still there. You need to inform your fellow cultists that PR is everything nowadays. No more of this "blood sacrifice" crap. You've got to bring them in with the promise of a fun evening playing a good wholesome board-game like rpg...and once they're wrapped up into it, THEN you drop the blood sacrifice/satanism/tool of the devil stuff on them once they've made too much of a monetary investment...like in MTG. Then they can't say no...
Gazetteer information is not a big sell for me, but releasing more quality adventures would. All I need is the players handbooks, and my favorite setting, since DDI handles the rest, even if I only subscribe for a month.
I do look forward to the rules compendium for easy reference.
WOTC does have a problem with pleasing everyone as well, since some prefer greyhawk, forgotten realms, dark sun, ravenloft, eberron, etc. That is one aspect pathfinder does not need to worry about with one setting. But with any setting, you will have to commit to purchasing the support material. But most old time gamers already have reference material, and just have to apply it to 4E in regards to fluff.
I know some were miffed by how they treated forgotten realms (spell plague), but that didn't affect me since I never played in that setting for any length of time. However, we are running a current 4E session hashing out current events since the last war with calimshan and memnon.
But good press on any roleplaying game helps keep us in our hobby, because anyone that does not like 4E has other avenues to explore.
All the free advertising for WOTC aside, 4E still has the very problem that drove gamers away. It requires an ever increasing investment in rulebooks for very little in the way of Gazetteers and thin on setting details Adventures. It is very unlike Pathfinder which has precisely the opposite - a huge array of adventures and Gazetteers and only a few core rulebooks.
WOTC needed to address these issues in a Big way from the get-go. H1 Keep on the Shadowfell has very little gazetteer information on the Community of Winterhaven (most vital would have been actual stats for the community residents the PCs do interact with) and very little comprehension of the fact that the 900+ farmers who live in its shadow would be farming and foresting as far out as the edges of the two square miles of map just to survive in their 'points of light' isolationst way of life despite the fact that it serves as the only gazetteer source for the region.
Intil we start to see a turn around on 4E will continue to have a low popularity with Old Gamers who expected better in the way of Setting.
Once WOTC starts producing Annual events Almanacs covering the communities that appear in the assorted regions and community Gazetteer, I suspect it will blow our minds.
This is a flawed argument in the context of the article. While its certainly possible that some players did not continue with 4E because they felt that the world setting was not deep enough this would not be the same group as they are targeting with this article or with the idea of 2 hour game encounters at ones local FLGS.
The people unhappy with the depth of the settings did not usually give up role playing 20+ years ago. They may play a different version of D&D or even another RPG that suits their taste but they know what 4E is and could probably play it if they wanted to. Here WotC is aiming at the group of players that once participated in a campaign in high school or went to D&D camp when they where 12. A group that probably has no idea what a Forgotten Realms is and thus will not be enticed back into the game with a detailed description trade patterns in the Inner Sea region.