|
I recently have been privileged to play in a scenario for Tier 1-2 with a 1st level character (and a band of the same level). Sadly, several of the encounters were quite difficult.
The next encounter sent a shadow at the party along with several undead with attacks, again, able to take out a 1st level character with average rolls in one swing. Which obviously the party couldn't handle and quickly killed my character.
Throughout this, my biggest thought was of disbelief. I mean, I never thought that they would actually send these things to kill the party.
The issue seems to be that players assume that the game is going to be remotely fair to them. They don't expect to have the Tarrasque charging at them when they start on their mission without a way for them to escape or beat it.
I'm not sure what to do in scenarios I play in now. Should I run at the very first sign of trouble now? Because after this scenario, it feels as if I should make a coward that will ditch the party after the first round when something seems dangerous?
It would make me a complete jerk though, but that is the only way I think my character could have possibly survived this scenario.
The scenario faked me out by pretending to be appropriate for me character. It then stole my character from me because I trusted that the game would be balanced. I want to ask for my character back because if this is how it is, I will just accept the fact that PFS wants me to run from every encounter right when it seems dangerous. If a scenario is broken, there should be a better response than, "well I'm sorry, there is nothing I can do. Your character is dead."
I don't recognize the scenario from the combat descriptions, so was this a Season 0 or Season 1 scenario?
|
|
Are you asking for advice, just gripin', or what? Do you recall the name of the scenario?
Griping I guess. It has been a long five weeks playing this on a PbP game and I have been venting a bit for a while. I know that my options for what to actually do are limited: quit or keep playing.
I guess what I'm looking for is an acknowledgement that some scenario might be unbalanced and that something might be done about it. I want this game to sort of be worth something in the end.
The scenario was The Third Riddle. It was season 0 scenario.
Non-Stealth Edit: Also I was pretty sure if I didn't post something like this, every time I would look at my screen of PFS characters I would remember that I didn't do anything about this.
|
Many a first level Society Scenario hath ended with a TPK.
That being said, some of the scenarios are tougher than others. The Third Riddle is certainly appropriate for either second and third level characters (for tier 1-2) or fourth and fifth level characters (for tier 4-5.) It is a total deathtrap for first level characters.
To get past that all-important first Society scenario, you either have to be in a cleric-heavy party of six or be playing alongside characters who have successfully navigated a scenario or two.
If this was indeed the first scenario for everyone playing, I think the biggest problem was that the GM ran a difficult scenario for you. Along with The Maze of Delirium, The Pallid Plague, The Frozen Fingers of Midnight, and Dark Waters, The Third Riddle is not a good introduction scenario unless you want a TPK and folks to leave the society.
For new players, I highly recommend The Devil We Know--this scenario is well balanced, with a great deal of excitement but challenges that can be overcome by novice players.
Also--first level characters don't have to be raised: You are simply alive again (I think this is right, but double check your PFS Player's Guide to be sure.)
Don't give up on the Society yet: I have had hundreds of hours of great fun as a result of PFS! Once you get into it, it tends to be quite addicting...
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
Also--first level characters don't have to be raised: You are simply alive again (I think this is right, but double check your PFS Player's Guide to be sure.)Don't give up on the Society yet: I have had hundreds of hours of great fun as a result of PFS! Once you get into it, it tends to be quite addicting...
It's certainly the case that characters with no experience points just start over again -- why not? -- but I do believe that raising 1st-Level PCs with their experience points intact does require a spell.
If you have any evidence contrariwise, I'd be happy to be proven wrong.
1st level characters have to be raised in order to be played again. There is even a spot in the PA section of the Guide that says that 1st level character can be raised, unlike in normal play where they would stay dead since Raise Dead normally gives you a negative level.
Also, since I do not know that scenario personally, but it is Season 0, I wonder if the GM tried to adjust it to fit the PRPG rules and overdid it on updating the fights, thereby making them too hard.
|
|
Don't give up on the Society yet: I have had hundreds of hours of great fun as a result of PFS! Once you get into it, it tends to be quite addicting...
I'm sorry if I was too dramatic with how I brought it up. I'm pretty certain I will not be quitting because of this scenario. I'm still going to play, I just want to know what is to be done in situations like this (characters killed for joining the wrong scenario).
That being said, some of the scenarios are tougher than others. The Third Riddle is certainly appropriate for either second and third level characters (for tier 1-2) or fourth and fifth level characters (for tier 4-5.) It is a total deathtrap for first level characters.
If that is the case, then it would be appropriate to repair the scenario to read tier 2 instead of 1-2. Those numbers are the primary way a GM can tell what levels a scenario is for, if they are off, then TPKs will happen without the GM nor the PCs being at fault.
It's certainly the case that characters with no experience points just start over again -- why not? -- but I do believe that raising 1st-Level PCs with their experience points intact does require a spell.
Yeah I think so too, and that is what I will have to do. I will be essentially copy-pasting this character at 0 XP and starting gold. I don't like it, but the scenario that killed seemed so unfair that I don't really care that much. If I could, I would even rather have it so that this character is just reset the registry character to zero instead of having the clone next to the dead character.
|
|
Hi,
I just Dmmed the adventure two days ago for four first level characters. And although they had some difficulty they managed to complete the adventure without any casualties.
According to me the reasons they survived were:
- All players were expierenced 3.5 edition players. And although they never played together (or even met) before that day they worked really well as a team.
- One of them had spend two PA from a previous adventure to get a wand of cure light wounds which he gave to the cleric to heal anyone who was injured. I think a total of 12 charges were used.
- They noticed the encounters were more of a riddle then a combat (not a spoiler, unless you consider the title of the adventure a spoiler as well ;-) ). If you just go in and charge, then yes you are going to have a hard time.
- Reasonably balanced table: Rogue, Summoner, Transmuter, Cleric.
I never played PbP, but I can imagine working together might be more difficult than real life play. 'Should I run at the very first sign of trouble now?' is a sure way to get everyone killed. 'How are we going to handle this' is the way to go! Work as a team, not as individuals.
|
|
- They noticed the encounters were more of a riddle then a combat (not a spoiler, unless you consider the title of the adventure a spoiler as well ;-) ). If you just go in and charge, then yes you are going to have a hard time.
I realized it was a puzzle, however that didn't really aid with the fact the very tough monsters were very often between us and the puzzle pieces.
'Should I run at the very first sign of trouble now?' is a sure way to get everyone killed. 'How are we going to handle this' is the way to go! Work as a team, not as individuals.
I feel we did do that. But after the first round, tactics mean less when almost half the party is down or grabbed. That is the issue that seems to be core to the adventure.
It doesn't matter that I know I need to get to the other side of the room when it will provoke an average AoO that will likely take me out. Neither does it help that I know I have to do that puzzle thing when a creature is about to murder a downed PC. No tactics could have saved us.
Yes, running would probably kill whatever PCs was left in the room, but the alternative seems to have been having my character killed. Running seems to have been the correct decision that would have saved my character.
I am really curious what they did in this scenario different from our group. Please tell me, what exactly happened? Because nearly every monster in the dungeon took out most 1st level PC with one of their accurate attacks. It is unclear how tactics avoided this.
One thing that is in my mind is...
|
|
I am really curious what they did in this scenario different from our group. Please tell me, what exactly happened?
One of the party members went up the ladders and managed to get to the lens. With the lens he could determine which one was real so the rest of the party could focus their fire. The people with the good saves would stand between the illusionary scorpions and the party members with bad saves and the real scorpion was engaged by summoned monsters and ranged attacks. I was surprised how fast it was taken down.
|
|
I am really curious what they did in this scenario different from our group. Please tell me, what exactly happened?** spoiler omitted **
Thanks! It is nice at least knowing our party didn't do anything really wrong. Even though it doesn't really help the scenario be actually balanced.
When I played it, I think we survived that particular fight because:
|
|
I played this a week or so ago and can very easily see where all the pain comes from. I can see many people finding this difficult, but calling it too difficult is very hard to gauge. It was challenging for our group of 1sts and 2nds (mostly 1st with my oracle as the only healer).
This scenario can go south very fast, depending on party make-up, and dice rolls. I remember my early scenarios and finding them very difficult. Recent adventures (and different character builds) have resulted in many adventures becoming much easier, but PFS and challenge are often synonymous.
I commanded one zombie into fighting each other. GO Mystery of Bones!
JP
|
|
I can see many people finding this difficult, but calling it too difficult is very hard to gauge.
This scenario can go south very fast, depending on party make-up, and dice rolls. I remember my early scenarios and finding them very difficult. Recent adventures (and different character builds) have resulted in many adventures becoming much easier, but PFS and challenge are often synonymous.
To clarify. I am fine with a challenge. I am fine with difficult. This was beyond those.
I have run a good number of scenarios and I have to say not one that I have seen comes close to what I saw in The Third Riddle. The hardest encounter I've seen in other scenarios seems to be the average for this adventure and I feel it was not remotely fair.
|
|
I've run this one six times, but never with all 1st level PCs. As a GM I always consider the party make-up when I choose an adventure. I recall that I've never liked that particular scenario, but for reasons other than the combats.
It is unfair to armchair quarterback the GM, but at first blush I would wager that the GM did not prep the scenario well enough. Applying the shadow conjuration to the stat block and remembering the will saves for 2/3 of the monsters is not something that should be done on the fly. The room descriptions are very complicated and it's a toss up which room is easiest to mess up on.
This one is probably not one I would run a group of 1st level PCs through. Of the season zeroes, I'd choose Tide of Morning, Decline of Glory or Prince of Augustana as new-PC-friendly adventures.
Hmm. As a GM, I've been thoroughly underwhelmed with the lethality of scenarios and D&D and Pathfinder both typically seem to be marketed as the "you have a 99.99999% chance of not only surviving but thriving" types of games. Not that I disagree with you about the lethality of THAT encounter, in general, PFS scenarios are walk-throughs..so that's what players expect. Then when it get's dangerous, they don't even know what's coming and have no realistic way to react.
I'd like to see that if there will be "lethality" re-introduced into the scenarios, that there be some heads-up.
Afterally, just for showing up at a table, you get the same xp as the next guy (which I LIKE), but if that's going to be the case why do we have perpetually boring, meaningless combat encounters that players walk through (with the exception of this one evidently).
The scenarios, although well-written, generally use the Taco Bell formulae..same ingredients, different' ways of stirring them together:
Combat > Combat > Trap > Combat with environment
Trap > Combat with environment > Combat > Combat
Combat with environment (ambush) > Combat > Trap > Combat
The only thing that changes in most cases is that you need more Monster Manuals in order to justify some variation in combat encounters.
The scenarios, although well-written, generally use the Taco Bell formulae..same ingredients, different' ways of stirring them together:
Just to be clear with my previous post: I think PFS scenarios are exceptionally well-written and edited compared to their predecessors going back 20 years. The stories are good, but I think PFS has become trapped in the D&D 4e miniatures-wargame mentality and this holds it back from becoming a more diverse experience for it's players.
jh
|
|
This one is probably not one I would run a group of 1st level PCs through. Of the season zeroes, I'd choose Tide of Morning, Decline of Glory or Prince of Augustana as new-PC-friendly adventures.
I think this is one of the things irritating me. Should I have to ask on the forums about scenarios before I play in them, just to see I really should be playing it. Right now the scenarios seem more like a mine field now, and figuring out the right scenario to play is how to avoid a kill.
To me, if it is supposed to be new PC friendly, it has Tier 1 on the adventure. If it isn't, well, why shouldn't I demand my character not be marked off as dead just because the adventure was mistaken about who it was appropriate for?
|
This one is probably not one I would run a group of 1st level PCs through. Of the season zeroes, I'd choose Tide of Morning, Decline of Glory or Prince of Augustana as new-PC-friendly adventures.I think this is one of the things irritating me. Should I have to ask on the forums about scenarios before I play in them, just to see I really should be playing it. Right now the scenarios seem more like a mine field now, and figuring out the right scenario to play is how to avoid a kill.
The issue is this:
A brand new lvl 1 has 150 GP or less of gearA level 1 with 1 1-2 tier : 525 - 700GP
A level 1 with 2 1-2 tiers under them are 900-1250
a level 2 (3 1-2 scenarios) 1275-1800
then multiply this by a group of 4-6
as you can see, a brand new first level party is a lot less prepared than a party of level 1s with 2 scenarios already under their belt. There could be as much as a 1650 GP difference. (this was just looking at the scenarios within reach of my computer with tier 1-2) Making a scenario that is challenging to someone with 1250 worth of gear @ level 1 that won't pulverize a group of characters with only 150 GP worth of gear @ level 1 is a challenge, but they are both valid groups of level one characters.
|
|
Making a scenario that is challenging to someone with 1250 worth of gear @ level 1 that won't pulverize a group of characters with only 150 GP worth of gear @ level 1 is a challenge, but they are both valid groups of level one characters.
I understand that there can be a wide variety of power between individual level one characters, but their ACs, saving throws, and hit points aren't that far enough apparent even if they spent all 1000 gp they earned. They aren't that far apart. It might mean a +1 AC or saving throws along with a 1st level wand and +1 to attack rolls with their weapon. That is not a lot of change.
But yes. Building for multiple levels can be a challenge. But there should be extra caution for these lower levels, when hit points are at their lowest.
|
|
This quote from the PFS Guide has been sticking with me, "Obviously, we hope (and are striving to balance the scenarios in such a way) that a total party kill never happens—..." and I wonder that it doesn't deal with the what to do do when the scenario isn't balanced in the that way?
Is the GM allowed/encouraged to modify a scenario to not create a TPK situation? If the GM believes that the scenario was grossly unfair, can the GM "hand-wave" the death as an error of the scenario? Do I have to prove that the scenario is not balanced for a 1st level group to get all the deaths cause by it expunged?
Or do I just have no options reclaiming this character no matter what the scenario sent at him and I really should have just not played at all?
|
|
Right now, I trust the GM more than the adventure. As it was a Play-by-Post, I find it unlikely that the GM was really winging it and seemed to be running it as it was written (as much as I can as a player). From my perspective, the only fault I really have with the game is the adventure itself.
I stand corrected then.
|
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
Is the GM allowed/encouraged to modify a scenario to not create a TPK situation? If the GM believes that the scenario was grossly unfair, can the GM "hand-wave" the death as an error of the scenario? Do I have to prove that the scenario is not balanced for a 1st level group to get all the deaths cause by it expunged?
No, we are not.
No, she cannot.Even that won't do it.
(And, Blazej, there have been worse TPKs in Season 0 for the fresh-faced Level 1 Pathfinders. Fortunately, the Decembrivate has asked Venture-Captain Juberto Savarre to stop sending newbies to look into a haunted house where they might encounter a combination of 5d6 shocking grasp and 5d6 lightning bolt in the surprise round.)
It certainly sucks to die, but frankly level 1 is the best time to die, if it's going to happen. You don't really lose much.
I think this is one of the things irritating me. Should I have to ask on the forums about scenarios before I play in them, just to see I really should be playing it. Right now the scenarios seem more like a mine field now, and figuring out the right scenario to play is how to avoid a kill.
"Minefield for 1st level PC's" Excellent point...
This has me thinking about the issue as a whole and here are my solutions:
1. The EL/CR system is outdated and obsolete. Monsters typically survive 1-2 rounds before being annihilated. Meanwhile, they get 1-2 MASSIVE attacks. One PC is going to take a bunch of damage and the rest are going to be bored to tears by combat encounters.
2. More people should GM a slot for credit. Your character has ZERO chance of dying and you get full-credit (sans the boons).
3. There should be LEVEL ONE scenarios instead of Tier 1-2. It should be: LEVEL ONE, Tier 2-3, 4-5, etc. Level one scenarios can only be played by n00b's and less than 50% 2nd level characters. Tier 2-3 scenarios can be played by level one characters at their own risk.
4. There needs to be scaling for the number of characters at the table beyond the "divide by 6 and add 1." It is noted that scenarios are designed for 4 characters. There is no way to add or subtract monsters for sub-tier balance and there needs to be. In my experiences thus far, scenarios have been waaaaaaaay to easy for tables of 6 (and we've had tables of 6 plus a noob running an iconic..and those are like drunken safari's for the PC's).
5. Survival shouldn't be guaranteed on any scenario. This sounds like a warning label ;) People just need to understand that at 1st level they NEED to be more cautious. Since xp is handed out whether you kill all the monsters or not, why is everyone trying to go toe to toe with dangerous monsters? Aren't there other ways? (This point get's theoretical and I'll leave it open.)
jh
|
|
No, we are not.
No, she cannot.
Even that won't do it.
(And, Blazej, there have been worse TPKs in Season 0 for the fresh-faced Level 1 Pathfinders. Fortunately, the Decembrivate has asked Venture-Captain Juberto Savarre to stop sending newbies to look into a haunted house where they might encounter a combination of 5d6 shocking grasp and 5d6 lightning bolt in the surprise round.)
The fact that there have been worse does not change the fact that I believe that this is a continuing error. If this is how one presents the Society to a new player, then I don't expect that player to come back (and very much agree with their decision). You can't make an error while refusing to correct it and maintain the trust of the players.
It certainly sucks to die, but frankly level 1 is the best time to die, if it's going to happen. You don't really lose much.
Yeah. Because of that the character is all back now. Now the cheesy death can get to learn about the cheesy copy-paste resurrection of a character 0 XP.
Now the cheesy death can get to learn about the cheesy copy-paste resurrection of a character 0 XP.
I don't understand what this sentence means, but I understand your pain. Our party had a 1st level 50%PK in a certain adventure that turned out to be notable for TPKs. It's frustrating, to say the least.
To be totally fair, Blazej, you're complaining about scenario #11 and I'm right now working on 51, 52, 53, and 54. I've learned a lot about sub-Tier 1-2 design for an org play environment in those last 40-44 scenarios. When I developed #11, I really like it. I thought it added unique and challenging encounters for the PCs who were begging for that. In reality, I think each one of the encounters is probably too complicated and its the complication more than anything that makes this scenario hard. EDIT: And I can't imagine playing this scenario in play-by-post. Yeesh, that would hard!
I think all of the scenarios that include sub-Tier 1-2 from about #24 and up are well-balanced and fun. I've heard tale of some TPKs in #29, but they nearly always seem more about either the GM ignoring the tactics section or the PCs trying to tackle a challenge in multiple split-up groups (I've run it several times for sub-Tier 1-2 and haven't seen a death yet).
You'll notice (or maybe not and I'm telling you for the first time) that we've retired several scenarios: #9, #10, #15, #18, and #21. Over the course of the next year, it's my goal to either retire season 0 scenarios or update them for Pathfinder RPG. Updating will, of course, involve another development pass and for the scenarios I want to survive, that will include re-reading their associated threads on these boards and making the corrections folks have pointed out.
So while I under, Blazej, that you're frustrated, I would encourage you to play more sub-Tier 1-2 scenarios #24 or higher (though #29 and higher are actually for PRPG and not 3.5).
Regardless, I appreciate your feedback and encourage it whenever possible. It's that feedback that's made the scenarios better.
Thanks!
|
|
Now the cheesy death can get to learn about the cheesy copy-paste resurrection of a character 0 XP.I don't understand what this sentence means, but I understand your pain. Our party had a 1st level 50%PK in a certain adventure that turned out to be notable for TPKs. It's frustrating, to say the least.
Thanks. I just meant I rebuilt the character by just adjusting the character number on the sheet up by 1. I don't really like it because it feels cheap, but this kill doesn't feel like it deserves any respect from me.
Thanks, I probably have been a bit too whiny about this, the only reason I have is the keeping my mouth pretty much shut for three weeks kind of let it explode out.
|
|
So while I under, Blazej, that you're frustrated, I would encourage you to play more sub-Tier 1-2 scenarios #24 or higher (though #29 and higher are actually for PRPG and not 3.5).
Thank you, I would love to play in them except I've (as far as I could tell) already played in or run all the current Tier 1-2 scenarios from #24 on.
Still seriously, thank you. Getting a response like this even if nothing changes for this character means apparently a lot to me.
Thank you, I would love to play in them except I've (as far as I could tell) already played in or run all the current Tier 1-2 scenarios from #24 on.
There are many more coming! :-)
Still seriously, thank you. Getting a response like this even if nothing changes for this character means apparently a lot to me.
Your use of "apparently" right there made me LOL. :-)
Seriously, though, don't wait 3 weeks to say something. Just let me know if something isn't working for you--who knows, maybe it isn't working for a lot of people and there's something there to be looked into.
|
|
It certainly sucks to die, but frankly level 1 is the best time to die, if it's going to happen. You don't really lose much.
Agree.
Side note - My PFS character's very first module, he failed a will save in encounter 1. Went temporarily insane with the compulsion to kill all of his party-mates. He and his animal companion had downed every other party member except one, who got in a luck shot and stopped him before he single-handedly (okay, him and his dog) killed the entire party.
One will save, and will was his best save.
It was just one of those things that you get to talk about if you survive.
:)
Side note - My PFS character's very first module, he failed a will save in encounter 1. Went temporarily insane with the compulsion to kill all of his party-mates. He and his animal companion had downed every other party member except one, who got in a luck shot and stopped him before he single-handedly (okay, him and his dog) killed the entire party.
One will save, and will was his best save.
It was just one of those things that you get to talk about if you survive.
:)
So which scenario was that, so that I can avoid it? And if that had been my first PFS game, I would have either never wanted to play at another table run by that GM or I maybe would have never played another PFS game again.
|
|
So which scenario was that, so that I can avoid it? And if that had been my first PFS game, I would have either never wanted to play at another table run by that GM or I maybe would have never played another PFS game again.Side note - My PFS character's very first module, he failed a will save in encounter 1. Went temporarily insane with the compulsion to kill all of his party-mates. He and his animal companion had downed every other party member except one, who got in a luck shot and stopped him before he single-handedly (okay, him and his dog) killed the entire party.
One will save, and will was his best save.
It was just one of those things that you get to talk about if you survive.
:)
Not sure that was a PFS scenario or a GM really bending the rules... sounds more like Cthulhu.
|
|
Not sure that was a PFS scenario or a GM really bending the rules... sounds more like Cthulhu.So which scenario was that, so that I can avoid it? And if that had been my first PFS game, I would have either never wanted to play at another table run by that GM or I maybe would have never played another PFS game again.Side note - My PFS character's very first module, he failed a will save in encounter 1. Went temporarily insane with the compulsion to kill all of his party-mates. He and his animal companion had downed every other party member except one, who got in a luck shot and stopped him before he single-handedly (okay, him and his dog) killed the entire party.
One will save, and will was his best save.
It was just one of those things that you get to talk about if you survive.
:)
If I had to guess it was
|
|
If I had to guess it was ** spoiler omitted **Not sure that was a PFS scenario or a GM really bending the rules... sounds more like Cthulhu.So which scenario was that, so that I can avoid it? And if that had been my first PFS game, I would have either never wanted to play at another table run by that GM or I maybe would have never played another PFS game again.Side note - My PFS character's very first module, he failed a will save in encounter 1. Went temporarily insane with the compulsion to kill all of his party-mates. He and his animal companion had downed every other party member except one, who got in a luck shot and stopped him before he single-handedly (okay, him and his dog) killed the entire party.
One will save, and will was his best save.
It was just one of those things that you get to talk about if you survive.
:)
Bing Bing. A correct answer!
It all turned out fine in the end. I recovered, party recovered. We went on to defeat the BBEG. ALl good.
|
|
|
|
What's the point of giving them the template if they don't attack their own party members once in a while? If you don't have the chance of attacking your own party members, then I as a player would want to fail the save so I can get the bonuses to attack and damage.
If I remember the description correct, it says that the character becomes confused. And every NPC they find has attacked his fellow NPCs and killed them. That to me sounds like the PC should have a chance at attacking their fellow players.
I've only participated in this scenario once, and only one player failed their save. The GM ran it like a weak confusion spell (the player only had control half the time, the other half rolled on the confusion table) and the players took control of the situation and used the infected barbarian to their advantage. It was quite fun and amusing.
|
|
What's the point of giving them the template if they don't attack their own party members once in a while? If you don't have the chance of attacking your own party members, then I as a player would want to fail the save so I can get the bonuses to attack and damage.
If I remember the description correct, it says that the character becomes confused. And every NPC they find has attacked his fellow NPCs and killed them. That to me sounds like the PC should have a chance at attacking their fellow players.
I've only participated in this scenario once, and only one player failed their save. The GM ran it like a weak confusion spell (the player only had control half the time, the other half rolled on the confusion table) and the players took control of the situation and used the infected barbarian to their advantage. It was quite fun and amusing.
It isn't that there's no chance for them to attack their party members. It's their choice. I respect my players enough to let them decide how to interpret the madness. The template does not change your alignment. The people in the museum were evil to begin with. I think we agree that the template allows the players to have a lot of fun. I would be cheesed if I found out my GM made another player attack my character for his/her own entertainment.
|
|
Yeah, our GM had the people who failed attack the party, as well, but allowed them to do subdual.** spoiler omitted **Well, I would place it as massively different from when I played it, I will say that. My character, then a Halfling Rogue, was one of two who failed our saves; and the GM basically had us attack the rest of the party.
our characters rolled for a random direction (just like missing a throw for a grenade-like weapon) and attacked in that direction