So I was playing Pathfinder Society Scenario #14: The Many Fortunes of Grandmaster Torch last Monday night, when my GM goes "crit". I think ok, I'm going to be unconscious, but I'll live through this. Then he goes, take 33 damage. Well I'm a 3rd level wizard playing in a 3-4 campaign. I say, "I'm dead" and begin packing up my things to leave.
So I get home and being a bit frustrated with this I buy the module and look up what exactly killed me. It turns out it was a huge centipede. Well I've GM'd for a long time, and I could not imagine a giant centipede criting for this much. I pull out my monster manual and see the huge centipede does 2d6+4 damage. Well this could do as much as 32 damage, but only on all 6's. (I also do not know what the GM rolled because it was behind a GM screen in which he told me he used so he did not kill anyone). I then send him an email inquiring about what killed my character. He said he used the Pathfinder SRD for the stats but had toned them down from what they were originally. I go to the site, and it says "This is fan created". The huge centipede on this site did bite +10 (2d6+15 plus poison[DC17] as a CR 2.
What am I supposed to do? The GM has told me the other players are willing to spend the money to raise me, but I think is absurd to make the other people I play with pay because the GM didn't follow the rules. So now, the character I have been enjoying and playing for months is dead, because the GM decided to tinker with the rules. I think I'm going to give up Pathfinder Society now.
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I can certainly appreciate your frustration – that sucks! However, I don’t think you should be too hasty in accusing the GM of cheating. It may be, as someone else suggested, that he made a poor call when converting a 3.5 monster to PFRPG rules ... or he may have made an entirely fair conversion (or used an official conversion) and just rolled really well for damage. Sometimes, against all odds, it happens.
A Huge centipede has recently appeared in a Paizo adventure for PF rules, so I think we can take that as an official conversion. It does 2d6+7 damage (plus poison) – so it is not impossible that a crit (rolling average of 5 on 4d6) could do that much damage.
Now, I can’t say in this case whether the GM cheated or made a bad call or what, but what happened could legitimately have happened entirely within the rules of the game and laws of probability.
The huge centipede you are refering to is also CR 3, not the CR 2 they were supposed to be. That changes things by a lot.
The module was written using 3.5 rules, are supposed to use the Monster manual from 3.5 using changes for CMB and CMD, the GM should not be making his own homebrew changes to the game. It is no longer a standardized league at that point.
I also asked him what did he roll, and said he rolled d8's instead of D6s, he rerolled 13 from 4d6 and added 20 damage. I am just rather annoyed at this whole things and I have serious doubts if I would ever want to play again. One bad DM and you're character for months is gone.
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Losing a character is frequently unpleasant but I don't think a GM that uses the wrong stat block is necessarily "cheating" or "bad"
What makes a GM bad is when the players don't have fun. Clearly you were very soured by this experience but that doesn't mean characters should never die. While I'm certain most of us enjoy success over victory making it a condition of enjoyment isn't really fair.
Does it suck that you lost a character to a mistake? Yup.
If it really is a deal breaker for you I suggest trying a less lethal campaign such as LFR where a horrible death at the hands of the GM meerly eliminates some of your rewards from that adventure.
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The huge centipede you are refering to is also CR 3, not the CR 2 they were supposed to be. That changes things by a lot.
The module was written using 3.5 rules, are supposed to use the Monster manual from 3.5 using changes for CMB and CMD, the GM should not be making his own homebrew changes to the game. It is no longer a standardized league at that point.
I also asked him what did he roll, and said he rolled d8's instead of D6s, he rerolled 13 from 4d6 and added 20 damage. I am just rather annoyed at this whole things and I have serious doubts if I would ever want to play again. One bad DM and you're character for months is gone.
Ok, well in your last post you said you didn’t know what he rolled. Now you do, so we can probably make a somewhat more informed judgement (and good point on the huge centipede I referenced being CR 3, I missed that - or rather I missed that yours should have been CR2).
If he made the damage 2d8 + 10 that seems like a poor call – he’s giving this thing a Strength score of 30! And more base damage than a typical huge sized bite. I agree that he should have used the 3.5 version with CMB and CMD. But a bad GM call (or maybe an inexperienced GM, or one a bit confused about how to run 3.5 modules in PFRPG) is not necessarily the same as cheating.
It’s entirely your call whether to keep playing Society or not. I agree, the situation sucks. Personally, if it was me I wouldn’t decide to stop playing, for example Adventure Paths because some of them seem to have inappropriately tough monsters in them (Rise of the Runelords, I’m looking at you!) or because my GM sometimes decides 'they need more of a challenge here'.
I don’t know whether there is some sort of recourse to challenge a characters death in Society if the GM has admitted he has done something outside of the rules which has led to a character death?
I have no problem playing in Pathfinder Society were my character can be killed. What I do not like is spending months enjoying my character, to have a GM use monsters outside of the written module and kill me. That is not fun.
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OK Cheating DM responding to this post.
1. I have apologized multiple times.
2. I arranged for the character to have a Raise Dead at no cost to him and of course no level loss as usual. I did this within the Pathfinder Society Organized Play Guide rules; the other PCs were going to foot the bill.
3. I do not use the 3.5 Monster Manuel; I did not realize WOTC products were needed to participate in Pathfinder Society games. If this is the case maybe it should be in the Pathfinder Society Organized Play Guide. (If it is I apologize for missing it)
4. I did not see anywhere in the Pathfinder Society Organized Play Guide that I was supposed to use the 3.5 version of the monster, the Scenario had no stats for the monster, it calls for huge centipedes.
5. I used the Bestiary to advance the monster. Medium Centipede Bite attack d6 advances to d8 for large, advance to 2d6 for huge. Strength 9 advances to Str 17 for large, advance to 25 for huge.
6. Original medium centipede bite d6-1, new huge centipede bite 2d6+10; the centipede only has one attack so the Str bonus is applied at x1.5. Strength score 25 is a +7 Str bonus x1.5 equals 10.
7. I rolled a natural 20 and confirmed the crit, bad luck for the player.
8. I picked up the wrong dice for the damage roll, the player declared he was dead, I was surprised and checked the stat block again and realized the mistake, I said sorry and rolled the correct dice which was 4d6 +20 and got an average roll 33 points. The PC is still dead. The player packs up and leaves. Doesn’t even wait to see how the rest of the group faired, they won, the 1st level fighter was knocked unconscious but he was stabilized by a Channel Energy.
Did I cheat?
I resent the word Cheat. Maybe I made a mistake but given the information I had I don’t even think I did that, but I am willing to admit it was a mistake.
After this incident I got home and started checking the boards for help and found the huge centipede from Kingmaker Adventure path #1. The designers, in their wisdom gave the huge centipede a tail attack which made the bite damage Str modifier loses the x1.5 for having a single attack. Note that it still does the 2d6+7. So the crit would still have killed the PC. Math: damage total at the table 33 which includes the +20 for Str damage twice from the critical; without the +20 the damage was 13. Ok our official Paizo huge centipede has a +7 Str, 7x2=14 plus the 13 damage I rolled on 4d6 equals 27, still killing the PC.
Did I cheat?
Do I mention that I resent the word Cheat?
Opinions?
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Another note, I am GMing another scenario at the same location next week and 4 of the 6 players who were in the session in question have already signed up and player #5 is not availible that day.
I am sorry I have upset a member of Pathifindr Organiezed Play, but the other players assure me that I was not out of line and that it was a fun session. I am now second guessing every decision I made with the scenario. I had already agreed to GM again prior to the session in question, our organizer is having a tough time finding GMs.
Maybe this kind of thing is why.
I will run the next session since I already agreed to, but I'm not sure I will GM again after being called a "Cheater".
Being called a "Cheater" doesn't sit well with me.
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6. Original medium centipede bite d6-1, new huge centipede bite 2d6+10; the centipede only has one attack so the Str bonus is applied at x1.5. Strength score 25 is a +7 Str bonus x1.5 equals 10.
I forgot about this - so it looks like you made the right call as far as advancing the damage (if you are supposed to convert the monsters - I don't know what it says in the Society guide). Yes, you're right, the one they use in Kingmaker 1 would not get the 1.5 damage multiplier due to the secondary tail attack.
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Another note, I am GMing another scenario at the same location next week and 4 of the 6 players who were in the session in question have already signed up and player #5 is not availible that day.
I am sorry I have upset a member of Pathifindr Organiezed Play, but the other players assure me that I was not out of line and that it was a fun session. I am now second guessing every decision I made with the scenario. I had already agreed to GM again prior to the session in question, our organizer is having a tough time finding GMs.
Maybe this kind of thing is why.
I will run the next session since I already agreed to, but I'm not sure I will GM again after being called a "Cheater".
Being called a "Cheater" doesn't sit well with me.
Having read your side of the story completely confirms my earlier suspicion that you made a fair conversion, and that the player is not being fair by calling you a cheater (see my first post in this thread). Did you do the right thing by converting the monster rather than using the 3.5 version? I don’t know what the rules say, but it would be easy enough to check I imagine. But if it was wrong, it appears to be an honest mistake. 2d6 + 10 damage seems high for a CR 2 monster, but your math shows you did the conversion correctly. The player is probably correct that this turns the monster into a CR 3 encounter, but this is still deemed level appropriate for a 3rd or 4th level party.
I usually sit on your side of the screen, and I know as a GM one sometimes has to make tough decisions and one sometimes makes incorrect decisions. I’m of the school of GMing that really takes little joy in killing a character, and I also would not appreciate being accused of cheating, whether or not I have made a bad call.
I urge you not to give up the GM chair, but if this experience has soured it for you, maybe take a break, or run some non-society games for a while (if possible) to get your mojo back.
When I GM, I let the dice fall where they may. Sometimes a crit on either side will result in death. That is the kind of game we play, and for myself as GM or player I wouldn't really want in any other way. Some folks limit death to specific story events, but I think letting the dice decide is the best way to avoid hurt feelings.
I don't think a crit killing a wizard at 3rd level should really surprise anyone.
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Venture-Captain, Arizona—Tucson
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As a GM, part of your role is to adapt details of the game to make it work properly. That's why we play games with living GMs, rather than MMORPGs.
An organized play GM is only "cheating" when he introduces changes outside the expectations set by the campaign. For example, in Pathfinder Society play, a GM who added a combat encounter with an entirely new creature would be abusing his authority. A GM who updates a scenario to match new rules is acting within his discretion.
That's not cheating.
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Well a quick review of the current Guide to Organised Play does not reveal to me what one should do about converting monsters in Season 0 adventures to PFRPG. Maybe I missed it. But regardless, the GM is correct in saying he should not need to refer to books outside the Paizo core rules and bestiary in running a Society game in PFRPG, the more I think about it the conversion he made seems like the right call and the player is having a sulk.
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Also, it should be pointed out that the 3.5 Huge scorpion could have killed the character on a crit too (probably), with a max damage output of 32 points on a crit. Pretty unlikely that max damage would have been rolled, but would this also elicit an accusation of cheating had it happened? Although very rare, there’s been a time or two over the years when I’ve rolled all sixes on 4d6 during character creation.
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I know as a GM rule #1 is for everyone to have a good time (including me) and my fear is to make a stupid or horrible mistake that will deprive someone of that fun.
Yes, the possibility of death is always a fate possible in PFS play. One of my first games in PFS had us go head to head with the opposition to Pathfinders (another society), and our entire party was getting its but kicked. My character was able to run away!!! and seek assistance and shelter from higher ground. The GM having beaten us, realized that he did not have to KILL us, and simply took a few items from the bodies, but did not coup-de-grace the party members, left the scene, allowing me to return to my party members, drag them into town and get them healed up. Nice touch by the GM. A harsher GM would/could have simply killed the party members that I had ran off from, and I have heard of GMs that have had TPK (thus the source of the initials).
Was it harsh to call the GM a cheat. It sounds like he made an honest effort to create a legit representation of the PFS scenario. Both sides should step back and declare, no harm/no foul. It sound like the GM tried to step up and offer a legit way to resurrect the character. I would suggest that the offer be accepted, but if he is to much in shock right now, then accept the result (and the offer) and shelve the character for a little while to allow the mental wounds to heal. One game should not be enough to destroy your pleasure of playing in PFS games.
FWIW
Robyn
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Running scenarios can be a tough job at the best of times. Converting Season 0 scenarios from 3.5 to Pathfinder RPG, even moreso.
The GM is encouraged to use Pathfinder RPG equivalents where possible, or use the conversion guide to convert 3.5 opponents, or just run with the 3.5 version at the GM's discretion.
There are a few instances where I've had to improvise with Season 0 encounters. One involved a cult attacking with spiked chains from platforms with fast-running water in a sewer system. Pathfinder RPG has reduced the spiked chain's reach to 5', so using the current rules, the opponents couldn't attack using that strategy. I paused and asked the players how they wanted to play it?
I've run this scenario three times now with the cultists using different weapons each time: 10' reach spiked chains, 10' reach whips (non-lethal damage), and 10' reach spears.
In another scenario, I forgot to bring my 3.5 MM, planning to use the Bestiary instead. An encounter featured Howlers, which were in the 3.5 MM, but not in the Bestiary, and the scenario didn't include stats for them. I was stuck. So I replaced them with Dire Wolves instead. Different beast, different tactics.
Could either of these replacements have lead to unforseen consequences? Maybe so. But it's the GM's responsibility to judge the circumstances, and run the scenario to the best of his ability using the tools available.
I usually GM, but recently I've also played a few scenarios. In the last two sessions, my characters were one point away from death.
In one, my Witch Madusha cast Ray of Enfeeblement on an enlarged fey opponent. This annoyed the fey, so he attacked me next, critical from a two-handed weapon, instant death!
But then I asked the GM, did he reduce the damage due to Ray of Enfeeblement? He'd forgotten, re-calculated the damage, I was one point away from death! Someone came to my aid that round and saved me.
Second example: my Knowledge Domain Cleric Slip, built like a Wizard, -penalties to STR/DEX/CON, +bonuses to INT/CHA/WIS, favoured class points spent on skills not hitpoints = he's not optimised for combat, has the staying power of a Wizard, so I shouldn't be surprised when he drops like a sack of potatoes.
I don't think the GM in this instance did anything wrong. Unfortunate circumstances, yes.
Pitching in for a character's resurrection is what a team does, even a bunch of strangers that play together once at a game-day or convention, because every player plays a role in combat, a team works together not only to take the opponent down, but also to protect each other. The fact that you took the brunt of this particular encounter is random circumstance, and every player knows they might be next.
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Well a quick review of the current Guide to Organised Play does not reveal to me what one should do about converting monsters in Season 0 adventures to PFRPG. Maybe I missed it.
Josh has indicated that while updating creatures from v3.5 to Pathfinder is not required, it is not technically illegal either. Pathfinder is designed to be backwards compatible with v3.5 so no updating is required (outside of determining CMB/CMD). However, there should be little to no harm in converting a creature to PFRPG either. As it happens, I ran this scenario today and followed the OP'ers method of using the Bestiary to advance the creature to huge. He correctly converted the size increase and even though the centipede became a CR3 instead of the original CR2, AND there are three occuring bumping the EL to 4, it is still an appropriate challenge for a group playing at APL 3-4. Definately not cheating.
Well a quick review of the current Guide to Organised Play does not reveal to me what one should do about converting monsters in Season 0 adventures to PFRPG. Maybe I missed it.Josh has indicated that while updating creatures from v3.5 to Pathfinder is not required, it is not technically illegal either. Pathfinder is designed to be backwards compatible with v3.5 so no updating is required (outside of determining CMB/CMD). However, there should be little to no harm in converting a creature to PFRPG either. As it happens, I ran this scenario today and followed the OP'ers method of using the Bestiary to advance the creature to huge. He correctly converted the size increase and even though the centipede became a CR3 instead of the original CR2, AND there are three occuring bumping the EL to 4, it is still an appropriate challenge for a group playing at APL 3-4. Definately not cheating.
However, it has also been stated that you are NOT to make the encounters harder or to replace the 3.5 creature with something else.
When I GM, I let the dice fall where they may. Sometimes a crit on either side will result in death. That is the kind of game we play, and for myself as GM or player I wouldn't really want in any other way. Some folks limit death to specific story events, but I think letting the dice decide is the best way to avoid hurt feelings.
I don't think a crit killing a wizard at 3rd level should really surprise anyone.
QFT
I've been the one kicking on the end of an ogre's blade most recently in one of Ferg's campaigns and I can say I never felt shafted (except by my own dice) for one NY minute.
Outside of organized play, I am not sure there really is such a thing as GM cheating.
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I was supposed to have run this scenario tonight, but my wife was not feeling well so I had to back out at the last moment. Sometimes real life overrules everything.
Whenever possible I use PFRPG equivalents right out of the book. If there isn't one, then I use the old one from 3.5 I also use my iPhone to access the PFPRD monster pages or d20srd.com for the 3.5 versions so I don't worry about not having the right book handy.
The situation sucks, but no I don't think there was anything done wrong. Sometimes a PC death happens. Very first PFS game I played in was a TPK. Bak tactics on our part, no cleric, and we died. Most of the party actually drowned if I remember right (paralyzed falling into knee deep water and we couldn't get to them in time). My own character was paralyzed and the last in the group and slowly eaten alive by a giant water bug! I HATE bugs now!
Does it suck to play a character for months then it dies? Absolutely. Is that reason to accuse someone of cheating because it didn't go the way you wanted? No.
A friend had his barbarian die in a massive fight. He wanted to just dump that character all together. We banded together and insisted he use his faction resurrection. Eventually we got him to come around and bring the guy back. Was it heart breaking for him? Sure was! He was really upset, I understand that, but after being calmed down he came back.
Bad stuff happens occasionally. That is part of the nature of the game. Other wise we should just play Warcraft and be done with it- infinite resurrections there! I'd say accept the resurrection, shelf the character for a bit until you have had a chance to cool off, then enjoy the game again.
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I will run the next session since I already agreed to, but I'm not sure I will GM again after being called a "Cheater".
Being called a "Cheater" doesn't sit well with me.
I expect the other players will not like losing a GM.
Not having been there it's impossible for me to judge. I also sit in the GM's seat a lot and it can be a tough spot since sometimes there are things you have to wing.
The way I see it worst case scenario is you made a mistake which IMO is a long shot from cheating. You mention the MMI requirement and I understand the frustration but the season 0 stuff is all 3.5 based. One suggestion is that if you stick to the season 1 modules you are guaranteed they won't expect MMI creatures. If you already have access to the S0 stuff then that's not much help.
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After this incident I got home and started checking the boards for help and found the huge centipede from Kingmaker Adventure path #1. The designers, in their wisdom gave the huge centipede a tail attack which made the bite damage Str modifier loses the x1.5 for having a single attack. Note that it still does the 2d6+7. So the crit would still have killed the PC. Math: damage total at the table 33 which includes the +20 for Str damage twice from the critical; without the +20 the damage was 13. Ok our official Paizo huge centipede has a +7 Str, 7x2=14 plus the 13 damage I rolled on 4d6 equals 27, still killing the PC.
As I play PFSOP and is about to start as a player in Kingmaker, some of these references would benefit from a spoiler tag. I don't like to have my huge centipede surprises ruined. (Allthough I am sure it was an honest mistake)
Paizo did a crappy job for conversions of most vermin in the beastiary. They took an approach where the stat'd one monster and then told everyone to do their own conversions for the rest of the monsters. This has made some seriously different CR'd creatures. The original 3.5 Huge monster had a bite +5 (2d6+4 plus poison [DC 14]). When you make the conversion to pathfinder it now has a bite +10 (2d6+10 plus poison [DC 17]), which is basically a 100% increase in attack and damage. Atleast WotC realized this would imbalance certain CRs and did not give them the full +8 str +4 con and other bonuses associated with leveling in size to keep the aspect of damage potential and CR in line with other CRs of the same level.
I was also very annoyed because the GM specically emailed me to come join his table this night in which I had originally not thought of coming to play at. When I arrived he said he was going to use a GM screen specially so he did not kill anyone. Then he killed my character. Then he uses ramped up NPCs from outside the original intent of the module. I feel like I was ambushed in this regard.
I had been playing this game with the spirit of intent of the game. I now see it has nothing to do with having fun, but how min/maxed you can make your character. Again, this is not "fun" in my opinion. And as for GMs being able to alter the mobs in a standardized gaming format I still see as cheating. If I made my characters by any other rules than the ones given, I would be called a cheater, how is it different for GMs?
Also, the module specially says "Huge Monstrous Centipedes (3) CR 2
hp 33 (MM 286)". It does not mention a Pathfinder Beastiary or anything else from Paizo. If you do not have the Monster Manual from 3.5, perhaps you should not be running Season 0 mods.
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Let's not get too hasty here, with the venomous remarks. I don't think the guide made it terribly clear what you're supposed to do in regards to converting season 0 scenarios. My group this last time we met fell victim to a TPK because of crazy crits while playing a converted Season 0 mod, but I'd hardly blame the GM for that. Although he does have a knack for rolling lots of crits. lol. Just our bad luck.
Remember, though, this is a game. Let's not throw around the word "cheater" when it's not warrented. These things happen.
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I want to preface that from DMing alot of the 3.5e scenarios, it can be very difficult to do it correctly and preserve balance. Would I say that the DM in this case cheated (and I thought this before reading his post): No he didn't. Would I say that he might've made a mistake? Sure, he did. Hell, I just recently DMed #11, The Third Riddle and had the same problem when converting
I've also had this problem later on in #9 Eye of the Crocodile King. Essentially it's taught me that to prevent the TPK... just use the monster straight out of the SRD unless there is the exact equivalent in the Bestiary. Medium Monstrous Spider? Bestiary. Large Monstrous Spider? 3.5 SRD using PFRPG poison rules.
In my experience going so far as to apply advanced and giant templates to recreate the vermin just is going to be an experiment for failure. You are either going to create something too tough or too weak for the party unless you know what you're doing, especially in PFSOP, where the DM really can't "take back" things.
In the end, my suggestion is to use Josh's original answer from last August, just calculate CMB/CMD, use the Bestiary if it is in there, use the 3.5 SRD otherwise.
Does it suck that you died? Yeah it does. But you're only level 3, and you were a caster at that. Just be careful with old Season 0 mods in the future, as there are many TPK potentials.
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A first answer took me to long and got eaten - so lets try it again.
In my view the whole issue starts with season zero scenarios and the use of Pathfinder for them. There is a good reason that Josh shies a little bit away whenever the issue comes in the direction of update of season 0 scenarios. Sometimes it just isn't simple.
So lets have a look at the specific example:
There is a monster that doesn't have a equivalent entry in the Bestiary.
You can't force the GM to also own the old WoTC books.
This means we are in an area where the GM has to make a call. After all this is what the GM is for. He is responsible to make a decision if you hit any grey area.
We can discuss if the decision made was the best possible. There would have been at least two options:
Go with the rules as written (or interpreted) by the GM and end up with a CR3 monster instead of the CR2.
Replace the monster with a different one with CR2 or 'tone' it down.
No matter which decision a GM takes - there are arguments in favour and arguments against it. Depending on the game and how the dice roll one or the other could turn out to be the better one. But the issue is - the GM has to make a decision.
Damn if you do - damn if you don't.
As it turns out - with the decision taken combined with a Crit it results in the death of a character which wouldn't have happened if the GM would have opted for a different decision.
As a GM being in this situation causes the next issue - what to do if only after the dice role you question your origional decision. Not sure this happened ahead of protests from the player - but again
Damn if you do - damn if you don't.
I fully understand the frustration of a player who loses his character to a GM decision. We do play RPG and we form an emotional bond to our characters. It feels unjust if this happens to you.
I also fully understand the frustration of the GM. As a GM you spend your time and try your best to be fair. If then your integrity is publicly questioned you feel treated unjustly.
Can't we all take a step back - especially not using inflammatory language. Yes - this is easy to say for me as I'm neither player or GM. But in the end - venting your feelings here openly will just have the opposite effect - it will ruin your fun to play.
And this would be the real tragedy. Not that a character got killed but that a player and/or GM would stop playing or GMing. And mainly doing so because they feel misunderstood / not listened too / being plublicly accused.
All I can say to Guthwulf - as a GM I try my best to ensure players have fun. But I do decisions in the grey area of a module and hope my players can accept them. Sometimes they are in favour of the player - sometimes they are in disfavour. I do understand why you feel they way you do.
For Andrew Philips I hope he isn't taking it personal and carries on as a GM.
Thod
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I will run the next session since I already agreed to, but I'm not sure I will GM again after being called a "Cheater".
Being called a "Cheater" doesn't sit well with me.
You did not cheat, so I hope you don't get discouraged from GMing PFS from this incident. Just remember that everyone appreciates the time and effort that goes into GMing!
I am sorry I have upset a member of Pathifindr Organiezed Play, but the other players assure me that I was not out of line and that it was a fun session. I am now second guessing every decision I made with the scenario. I had already agreed to GM again prior to the session in question, our organizer is having a tough time finding GMs.Maybe this kind of thing is why.
I will run the next session since I already agreed to, but I'm not sure I will GM again after being called a "Cheater".
I certainly wouldn't give up the GM chair over this incident if I were you. From reading this thread it sounds like you have been very available for the player to contact you, you've offered ways to help resolve any issue and by showing up in this thread you obviously care.
On top of all of that it sounds like the other players who were there still thought it was a fun session and that you've handled things well. So I would urge you to keep GM'ing, PFS always needs helpful and willing GMs.
GM'ing can be tough and despite massive rulebooks there is still a fair amount that a GM has to rule on as he thinks appropriate. Sometimes someone won't agree with that ruling, but again it seems like you've been very accommodating to resolve the issue. That is all I would ask from a GM.
Clearly you (the DM) did what you thought was right, and guthwulf was upset about the way things played out. It sounds like you've made all reasonable efforts to make things right (you arranged for a res for him, after all) if he's still upset about it, Pathfinder Society play might not be the best setting for him.
You're definitely NOT a cheater, and you don't seem to be a bad DM. The player and you just might not be a great fit for each other.
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This is an issue with converting season 0 senarios, when the bestiary was made, some monsters CRs changed, and a CR 3 pathfinder creature is more than 1.5 time harder than a 3.5 CR2 creature.
3. I do not use the 3.5 Monster Manuel; I did not realize WOTC products were needed to participate in Pathfinder Society games. If this is the case maybe it should be in the Pathfinder Society Organized Play Guide. (If it is I apologize for missing it)
4. I did not see anywhere in the Pathfinder Society Organized Play Guide that I was supposed to use the 3.5 version of the monster, the Scenario had no stats for the monster, it calls for huge centipedes.
To quote Josh from This thread:
This is a great example and question and shows why I really don't want people to convert the Season 0 scenarios. Please do not add levels, change monsters, etc. Just run them as they are with minor conversions for CMB/CMD.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Cpt-kristov beat me to the punch.
Andrew, I can understand your position, but that adventure was written and developed for the D&D 3.5 game. Despite claims to the contrary, the Pathfinder rules are not so transparent as to allow GMs to use the Pathfinder edition of any given Monster X and expect it to fit nicely into the same role that the D&D 3.5 Monster X does. Some creatures (Hill Giant) are much easier fights in Pathfinder. Some, like your Giant Centipedes, are tougher.
There are other differences, of course. But monster stat blocks are one of the heaviest areas of alteration.
If you don't have a D&D 3.5 Monster Manual --and that's reasonable, given that the book has been out of print for, what, over two years-- then I would recommend sticking with Season 1 scenarios from Pathfinder Society.
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As DM I'm as lenient with the monster as i am with the players.
if i grab a d8 for something that deals a d6 you know what i do? reroll if its over 6.
also the 4d6 +20 i would've rolled as 2d6+10(x2) or a d6(x2)+20. which is probably more brutal.
I fully admit that as Dm I cheat all the time. if my dice are having a bad night, i let the bad guys have an occasional "take 10" on an attack.
yes, sometimes things aren't fair. Also, i never arbitrarily kill people. i give everyone 1 point a session, usable for "stabize at -x, or reroll a save" and you can save them between sessions.
I understand being a player and growing attached to a character, I've had A LN necromancer arbitrarily killed by a Palidan for "not being good". That Dm smited me for being good and smited me for being evil in the same round. THATS arbitrary.
A dm fudging some dice may be "not nice", but its not cheating.
DM's are people too, and we all make mistakes
Chief Technical Officer
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If you don't have a D&D 3.5 Monster Manual --and that's reasonable, given that the book has been out of print for, what, over two years-- then I would recommend sticking with Season 1 scenarios from Pathfinder Society.
There's a reason we're starting to retire these Season 0 scenarios, after all...
And if you don't have 3.5 books, you can get everything you need for free from http://www.d20srd.org/.
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This is an issue with converting season 0 senarios, when the bestiary was made, some monsters CRs changed, and a CR 3 pathfinder creature is more than 1.5 time harder than a 3.5 CR2 creature.
3. I do not use the 3.5 Monster Manuel; I did not realize WOTC products were needed to participate in Pathfinder Society games. If this is the case maybe it should be in the Pathfinder Society Organized Play Guide. (If it is I apologize for missing it)
4. I did not see anywhere in the Pathfinder Society Organized Play Guide that I was supposed to use the 3.5 version of the monster, the Scenario had no stats for the monster, it calls for huge centipedes.
To quote Josh from This thread:
This is a great example and question and shows why I really don't want people to convert the Season 0 scenarios. Please do not add levels, change monsters, etc. Just run them as they are with minor conversions for CMB/CMD.
Ok so you are saying I should read every single message board post before GMing for Pathfinder Society Organized.
I don't have that much free time.
I downloaded and read the Guide, played as a player in 5 sessions. I found out that our group was very short on people willing to DM. I volunteered, and read the Guide thoroughly, purchased a scenario ran it everything was fine. I volunteered to GM again, purchased the scenario, read the scenario, found no stats for one of the encounters, checked the Bestiary found a centipede that was medium, used the rules for monster advancement.
Now you have shown me this very clear Post from Joshua J. Frost that would have prevented this whole mess.
So WHY THE FU** is this not in the Pathfinder Society Organized Guide?
I've gotten grief about this since Monday, it is now Friday night. Most folks (including everyone else at the table) don't seem to have a problem with how I handled the situation. Other than the listed post, or any message board post how was I supposed to know this in advance?
Do you think I cheated also?
And I have reframed from saying this but a caster with 10 constitution that is hit by a heavy melee monster crit can get killed at any level.
Did I mention that the rest of the party prevailed with only the 1st level fighter taking significant damage?
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Cpt-kristov beat me to the punch.
Andrew, I can understand your position, but that adventure was written and developed for the D&D 3.5 game. Despite claims to the contrary, the Pathfinder rules are not so transparent as to allow GMs to use the Pathfinder edition of any given Monster X and expect it to fit nicely into the same role that the D&D 3.5 Monster X does. Some creatures (Hill Giant) are much easier fights in Pathfinder. Some, like your Giant Centipedes, are tougher.
There are other differences, of course. But monster stat blocks are one of the heaviest areas of alteration.
If you don't have a D&D 3.5 Monster Manual --and that's reasonable, given that the book has been out of print for, what, over two years-- then I would recommend sticking with Season 1 scenarios from Pathfinder Society.
Ok, good advice.
I am a cheating GM?
I want that question answered by as many different people a possilbe.
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If you don't have a D&D 3.5 Monster Manual --and that's reasonable, given that the book has been out of print for, what, over two years-- then I would recommend sticking with Season 1 scenarios from Pathfinder Society.There's a reason we're starting to retire these Season 0 scenarios, after all...
And if you don't have 3.5 books, you can get everything you need for free from http://www.d20srd.org/.
Thanks for the information.
Am I a cheating GM?
Please respond.
Man not everyone has to respond but let me ask you this. Didi you change the monster to kill pc? Did you fudge dice rolls to kill a pc? Did you try and kill the pc just to kill him?
If not your good. Mistakes happen, does not make ya a bad GM or a cheater.
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Man not everyone has to respond but let me ask you this. Didi you change the monster to kill pc? Did you fudge dice rolls to kill a pc? Did you try and kill the pc just to kill him?
If not your good. Mistakes happen, does not make ya a bad GM or a cheater.
Sorry, to everyone, for getting snarky, I know you are all just offering help.
No I didn't want to kill the character, in fact he was in the Taldor faction and our PFS group has very few other Taldor supporters.
I will stop posting and see what else I can learn from this.
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Man not everyone has to respond but let me ask you this. Didi you change the monster to kill pc? Did you fudge dice rolls to kill a pc? Did you try and kill the pc just to kill him?
If not your good. Mistakes happen, does not make ya a bad GM or a cheater.
Sorry, to everyone, for getting snarky, I know you are all just offering help.
No I didn't want to kill the character, in fact he was in the Taldor faction and our PFS group has very few other Taldor supporters.
I will stop posting and see what else I can learn from this.
My best suggestion would be to wait until mid next week when Josh gets back from his Vacation. I'm positive that he'll be informed of the thread. Just to be sure, as far as I can tell no one is telling you that you're cheating. A mistake was made, probably on both ends because the conversion information isn't on the PFS guide, where you would've easily seen it.
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Man not everyone has to respond but let me ask you this. Didi you change the monster to kill pc? Did you fudge dice rolls to kill a pc? Did you try and kill the pc just to kill him?
If not your good. Mistakes happen, does not make ya a bad GM or a cheater.
Sorry, to everyone, for getting snarky, I know you are all just offering help.
No I didn't want to kill the character, in fact he was in the Taldor faction and our PFS group has very few other Taldor supporters.
I will stop posting and see what else I can learn from this.
Hi Andrew,
I think it is obvious that you are not a cheater. You handled the monster conversion as you saw fit...not to kill a PC. It sounds like you made an effort to help out the player with his PC after the session. Assuming that your account of the events is true, then I think he owes you an apology for posting on the internet that you are a cheater. I'm sure he was frustrated, but cheating is a pretty big insult if you are not guilty of it.
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Creative Director
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I'm positive that he'll be informed of the thread.
Just sent Josh an email to let him know to check this thread out when he gets back form his vacation. In the meantime, I don't think the GM cheated, but there was obviously a communication breakdown of some sort that, hopefully, can get sorted out soon.
Were this a home-game, I would say that the GM could/should just retcon the fight and say that the centipede's killing blow simply caused unconsciousness, and that the "slain" PC recovered the nearly fatal wound in time to start the next adventure. Not sure how that works in the Pathfinder Society, but Josh will hopefully be by late next week to say for sure.
After all, it's a game. It's supposed to be fun, not sad!
A couple of points:
I was sure the Guide had something about conversion of season 0 scenarios, but it is not in the current version. Does anyone have the ver. 2.1 or 2.01 and can check in there? Maybe Josh just accidentally left it out of the current version.
Andrew, no you did not cheat, you were just unprepared. You did not have enough time to prepare and read through the scenario and make sure you had everything you needed to GM and to plan out enemy tactics in advance.
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1) Andrew did not cheat. Not at all.
2) Andrew used one of many correct procedures in processing the creature. It may not be the preferred one of the forums, but was correct with the given materials in print.
3) Crits kill.
4) Low level wizards standing in reach of huge creatures are squishy and will die.
Nothing Andrew did was out of malice, and Guthwulf owes Andrew a huge public apology.
And after the apology, I suggest that Gunthwulf pick up the GM role for the next module. Learning to juggle is more difficult than watching the juggler perform. After having learned the art, you can better appreciate the art.
And don't worry Gunthwulf. There will be more opportunities for your character to die. If the Achievement Feats from the Adventure Paths were available in society play, I would have already earned my "Graverisen" by now.
Agree totally, especially on the apologize part. I am a GM myself and know how difficult it is to convert 3.5 to PF, what I do for my APs, and meanwhile change encounters (for a 6-members party) and meanwhile spending time to create new stuff to get their backgrounds into the mix.
If one of my players gets frustrated, he usually tells me, on the spot or after the game session, and I have never seen anyone just picking up his stuff and leaving. That is very bad form. It is understandable that dying this way and this soon into the session is frustrating, but a good player should know and expect that a good GM will fix it soon enough.
So, please... Do not air your frustration on these boards claiming your GM cheats. It is disrespectful and quite childish.
Sorry for the tone of my mail, but as a GM I find this thread quite disturbing.