Creative Director
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Wish can certainly be used to wish for items, but in Pathfinder, doing so is not a standard use of the spell; it falls under the section that covers wishing for "greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous."
Frankly, the spell says that it can create valueable components of no more than 10,000 gp, so I'd say that wishing for an item that's no more than that in price is easy and doable.
I would go one step further and say that since the wish uses a 25k gp diamond, you could create any single items up say 80% of that value.
So you could wish for a +3 sword(18k value) with no problems.
Seems like an expensive way of getting an item you could buy for less -- unless it's something very hard to come by.
Seems like an expensive way of getting an item you could buy for less -- unless it's something very hard to come by.
Pretty much, especially when you figure you could craft a +3 sword for under 10k.
But if you don't have a crafter with the right feats, and you can't find someone with the item to sell it to you...
There is nothing to say you cannot wish for more than that, but if you do you are risking your wish getting twisted.
I wish for a +5 vorpal sword.... Bang, you get it along with the Balor it belongs to.
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Besides it is easy to conceal a 25K diamond...
Ever try to conceal a +3 flaming hot poker (er longsword) while being held captive????
The 25K diamond will also get through detect magic searches....
I am sure assassins use these kinds of methods all the time...
I swallowed 8 25k diamonds before we arrived but now I'm plugged up! Do you have a spell to loosen things up a bit?
I swallowed 8 25k diamonds before we arrived but now I'm plugged up! Do you have a spell to loosen things up a bit?
How about a Grease spell and a rubber hose?
a solid gold pony
+1
I wish for a +5 vorpal sword.... Bang, you get it along with the Balor it belongs to.
Really?
Is this a holdover from the college of "All DMs must be sadistic jerks when resolving wish spells"?
I'm not trying ot pick on you specifically. I actually think somewhere back in the 1e days that it said we were supposed to be sadistic jerks with the Wish spell. Some DMs took that to heart. I know, back when I was a teenager and didn't know better, that I sure did. I remember one of my highschool buddies got one wish from a genie and he took a week to write it up. He basically wished for more strength, but it was a page and a half long, typewritten, single space by the time he finished it. I really don't remember it (that was 26 years ago) but I do remember it started with
"I, the party speaking and making this wish granted by you, the genie to whom I am speaking and who has clearly made due notice of your intention to grant me, the party speaking and making this wish, one wish, the terms 'I' and 'me' are not to be confused with any other definition of the word 'I' or 'me' and are not to be confused with any other person to whom the term 'I' or 'me' might refer, do hereby wish..."
It went on and on like that. After reading it through, I remember I found some loophole and screwed him over.
Yeah, those were the good old days...
Back to your quote.
Today I handle wishes like electricity. It always seeks the easiest path. Even magic has limits, even Wish spells, and the universal laws of entropy apply. So, wishing for a +5 Vorpal sword (assuming I allow a wish to provide such a kingly weapon), will not also add extra difficulty by throwing in a nearly epic monster from the deepest layers of some outer plane. That's too much effort and too far to go - way more magical energy than a wish would bother with.
However, it might just transfer the nearest +5 Vorpal sword from wherever it is right now, to the wisher. This is because moving such a sword is much easier than creating one out of nothing - easiest path. And yes, whoever owned it is going to be sorely vexed, and will no doubt have all kinds of magical means to find his missing sword and will spare no expense to get it back.
Some years ago I gave a wish to the everyone in the whole party. We had a wizard and a sorcerer. The wizard wished for a Staff of the Magi and poof - it appeared. Then the sorcerer wished for, I kid you not, his exact words: "I want the same thing, please." and he got it - the staff disappeared from the PC wizard's hand and appeared in the sorcerer's hand. They fought over it for days, until the true owner ambushed the party and took it back, leaving two very dead PCs to be rezzed. Hey, the party was only around 10th level and had no business with such a powerful item, and the true owner was of an appropriate level to own it so the PCs were a cakewalk encounter for him (too low a level for him to even get XP for defeating the party). The lesson here was wish for something you can hold onto...
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I wish for a +5 vorpal sword.... Bang, you get it along with the Balor it belongs to.Really?
Is this a holdover from the college of "All DMs must be sadistic jerks when resolving wish spells"?
Actually it comes from legends of wishes being double edged swords which predate D&D by a long shot. The idea of djinnis granting wishes that are destructive to the grantee has tons of ties back in folklore and myth.
I actually think somewhere back in the 1e days that it said we were supposed to be sadistic jerks with the Wish spell.
The AD&D wish spell is far simpler than the current one and much more open ended and djinni wishes even more so. In the wish spell it says "Regardless of what is wished for the exact terminology of the wish spell is likely to be carried out. (This discretionary power of the referee is necessary in order to maintain game balance... "
Essentially the spell was written to give the GM a blank check to use his discretionary powers to allow the player to do pretty wide open stuff but if the player got greedy it could bite him. Imagine that, the assumption that the GM would act responsibly, how refreshing.
I wish for a million bucks. ~realizes what I just wished for~ Oh deer.
I wish for a million bucks. ~realizes what I just wished for~ Oh deer.
You win.
I wish for a million bucks. ~realizes what I just wished for~ Oh deer.You win.
~laughter~ Blame an old Dragon Mirth comic from Dragon Magazine.
stuff
And how exactly is that any different from having a Balor come along with the sword?
stuffAnd how exactly is that any different from having a Balor come along with the sword?
The difference is, in my examples, the wish did not also bring the owner, since the owner wasn't wished for. That would be much more energy than just bringing the sword without the owner. And, surely, the nearest +5 Vorpal sword wasn't in the bowels of the Nine Hells, literally 11 planes away (at least by old-school cosmology) - there wasn't at least one such weapon just a little closer?
It's all good. I was just citing my take on wishes, not trying to force it on anyone.
I wish for a million bucks. ~realizes what I just wished for~ Oh deer.
Hah!
Just be careful you don't wish for a nine-inch pianist...
Actually it comes from legends of wishes being double edged swords which predate D&D by a long shot. The idea of djinnis granting wishes that are destructive to the grantee has tons of ties back in folklore and myth.
Actually, many such tales were "cautionary" tales. Tales where someone got exactly what they wished for, but then found there were consequences.
Like King Midas. He wished that everything he touched would turn to gold. Surely, he meant that in a not-quite literal way, such as saying that every movie project James Cameron takes on turns to gold. Even if he did mean it literally, I'm sure he envisioned it being at his discretion to turn something to gold when he wanted to. He just didn't think out his wish. He got exactly what he wished for, but he killed his loved ones by accidentally turning them into golden statues, he couldn't eat or drink, and he went mad from grief and loneliness and deprivation.
The key point is he got exactly what he wished for.
There is a fine line in a DM adjudicating a wish by giving the player exactly what he wishes for or by choosing to give them something else that is different, or was never included.
Wishing for a sword but getting a sword AND a balor is definitely not in the range of giving the player exactly what he wished for - it's adding to the wish in an arbitrary and punitive fashion that was not even remotely stipulated or suggested by the wording of the wish.
However, wishing for a sword and getting a balor's sword, without the balor, might be exactly what the player wished for, assuming he didn't stipulate which sword or where it came from. I would argue that the nearest sword matching the wish would be chosen, following my "easiest path" approach. If that balor decides to take steps to get it back, well, that only seems natural.
But if the player carefully stated that he wants his own sword, the one right here in his hand, to be transformed into a +5 Vorpal sword, then the wish would obey. It wouldn't make it thirty feet long so the poor guy can't pick it up, it wouldn't make it +5 Vorpal Unholy so the (good) PC has to lose levels to wield it. It wouldn't curse it to fumble on every third swing. No other bogus "add-on" punitive junk.
Easiest path. It works for me.
I would point out that there are main tales of genies warning their masters of poor wish choices too.
When Aladdin wished for the Jewel encrusted Roc egg for his palace the genie not only warned Aladdin such a wish was offensive but also told him who had placed the idea to ask for it in his wife's head. Such is the case several times in the 1,001 nights when genies not only grant the wish, but interpret it well for the wisher too.
I would point out that there are main tales of genies warning their masters of poor wish choices too.
When Aladdin wished for the Jewel encrusted Roc egg for his palace the genie not only warned Aladdin such a wish was offensive but also told him who had placed the idea to ask for it in his wife's head. Such is the case several times in the 1,001 nights when genies not only grant the wish, but interpret it well for the wisher too.
Good point.
Maybe a Diplomacy check against the genie before making a wish would be an excellent idea. Just don't blow it and piss him off...
Not much help if you're using a Ring of Wishes or casting your own Wish spell, but hey, dem's da breaks.
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But if the player carefully stated that he wants his own sword, the one right here in his hand, to be transformed into a +5 Vorpal sword, then the wish would obey. It wouldn't make it...
Ultimately the wording from the early spell (quoted above) was intended to be a way for the GM to balance what could be an otherwise unbalancing spell. There is even an example provided in the text where the character wishes someone dead and is transported into a future time where the person is dead. The whole issue isn't to be easy but to give the GM a tool to maintain balance while also giving a nod to legend and folklore.
The 1970 short story the recent movie "The Box", was based is a variant of this whole wish theme and it is filled with the whole punitive aspect which you so abhor. The punitive part is not ubiquitous but it is certainly a part of the folklore.
Again, the point is that it's not there for the GM to be a jerk, it's there so if the player gets greedy the GM has a tool. Is it appropriate for a character to have a +5 vorpal sword at that point in the game?
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I would point out that there are main tales of genies warning their masters of poor wish choices too.
When Aladdin wished for the Jewel encrusted Roc egg for his palace the genie not only warned Aladdin such a wish was offensive but also told him who had placed the idea to ask for it in his wife's head. Such is the case several times in the 1,001 nights when genies not only grant the wish, but interpret it well for the wisher too.
Good point.
Maybe a Diplomacy check against the genie before making a wish would be an excellent idea. Just don't blow it and piss him off...
Not much help if you're using a Ring of Wishes or casting your own Wish spell, but hey, dem's da breaks.
If you are talking about a third party granting a wish much of it depends on the motivation of the third party. If you have a genie under duress he is likely to interpret the worst possible way. There is at least one benevolent djinn who will grant the players a wish in Legacy of Fire and I would assume that the benevolent djinni would be as helpful as possible on granting the wish but ultimately there needs to be some reasonable limits to the effect of the spell.
I wish for a +5 vorpal sword.... Bang, you get it along with the Balor it belongs to.Really?
Is this a holdover from the college of "All DMs must be sadistic jerks when resolving wish spells"?
Stuff
No it comes from the DM must be sadistic jerks when the player tries to overreach with a wish spell school of DMing. If the player had wished for something that is within the bounds of the wish spell they would have gotten it.
The player is using a spell that costs 25,000 gp in material components to wish for an item that is worth 200,000 gp. That is being greedy IMO.
As for the power of different spells.
Gate, level 9 wizard spell, allows you to call forth a creature from the outer planes.
Wish, level 9 wizard spell.
Seems perfectly fine to me.
If the player wished for their sword to be turned into a +5 vorpal sword, I would interpret that as casting a level 20 GMW and a level 20 vorpal weapon spell on the weapon, making it +5 vorpal for 20 hours.
No it comes from the DM must be sadistic jerks when the player tries to overreach with a wish spell school of DMing. If the player had wished for something that is within the bounds of the wish spell they would have gotten it.
The player is using a spell that costs 25,000 gp in material components to wish for an item that is worth 200,000 gp. That is being greedy IMO.
Hey, you can look at this way, not only do you get your +5 Vorpal, but access to a potential great deal of XP! Just pray you activate the Vorpal ability on your newfound sword. :D
Here is a general question.
Wish can give you a permanent +1 inherant bonus to a start.
Would it be unbalancing for a wish to give you a feat?
We generally allow this but am curious how others view it.
My DM would allow it, and he is one who is always on the careful side in regards to unbalancing the game. But then that was with the 3.5 ruleset when you had to burn XP, his opinion may change with Pathfinder’s rules.
"I wish to turn undead"
poof you are a skeleton
"I wish it was harder for enemies to hit me"
you are one size category smaller
"I wish I was stronger"
Poof you smell really bad
"I wish I was wiser"
Poof you age to the next age category for your race
"I wish I had a sp every time anyone made a wish"
poof you get crushed under tons of sp
Why even take wish as a spell? With everyone wanting to pervert the intent in any way possible!
Grateful elves offer you a wish.
"No thanks how about some magical elven chain for me to wear?"
If a player wished to be stronger, wiser, etc, I would give them the +1 inherent bonuses that wishes are allowed to give.
The wish spell has well defined limits as long as you stay within those limits, you are safe. If you go outside those limits, you are at the mercy of the DM.
Wish can certainly be used to wish for items, but in Pathfinder, doing so is not a standard use of the spell; it falls under the section that covers wishing for "greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous."
Frankly, the spell says that it can create valueable components of no more than 10,000 gp, so I'd say that wishing for an item that's no more than that in price is easy and doable.
I don't see anywhere in the language that it says it can create valuable components. In fact I see it saying if you are using the wish spell to cast a different spell (which is part of the suggested uses) and that spell requires a component of more than 10,000 gp you must also provide that component in addition to the diamond.
When a wish duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 10,000 gp, you must provide that component (in addition to the 25,000 gp diamond component for this spell).
The way I interpreted that was that any component of one of those lower level spells that cost less than 10,000gp would be "absorbed" or "replaced" by the diamond, but if the spell you are trying to cast has a component of more than that value, the diamond won't be enough to cover the "replacement."
Also, in response to the "sadistic GM" discussion, the language of the spell also specifically says:
You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment, at the GM’s discretion.)
The language itself says it's up to the GM as to whether or not they want to be "sadistic." It also says that wishing for anything more powerful (we can discuss what is more powerful, because that too is very subjective) than what is suggested in the spell language itself, "is dangerous". It doesn't say "may be dangerous," it says is dangerous. In my mind that means if you wish for something more powerful than the suggested uses, you had better prepare yourself for danger to follow. Whether that is immediate, with a Balor "attached" to the sword, or later when the wizard comes looking for his Staff of the Magi, is really up to the GM, as per the "GM's discretion" language.
i was wandering, if you wished to stop aging would this be within the limits of the wish spell or should i assume something bad would happen.
i was wandering, if you wished to stop aging would this be within the limits of the wish spell or should i assume something bad would happen.Check with your DM!
One Dm might give you timeless body as the monk
Another DM might kill your character to stop the ageing process
Or...they could just let you live forever without making any (possibly nasty) side effects?
There are a lot of good fantasy stories (and at least a Buffy episode or two) involving wishes I'd suggest sampling a few of them for inspiration.
I agree that soul restoration is within the power-level of a wish spell. ;-)
I think at times a "Do you really want to wish for that?" is good enough for a dm to get a player to really consider what he is doing.
Now I'm not all for giving a player everything he wants in the best way possible, however giving them a warning is generally good enough to get the point across.
Some things work really well when they require multiple wishes to fulfill too. If they wish for a holy avenger for example they might get a dormant one that either needs a quest to awaken or another couple of wishes to get up to full power.
It helps the player know he asked for too much without making yourself look like a jerk, or completely screwing over the player (and usually the party as well).
Easy DM disclaimer, given to players ahead of time: "Just so you're aware: any overpowered wish is going to be used by me as our next plot hook."
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I think at times a "Do you really want to wish for that?" is good enough for a dm to get a player to really consider what he is doing.
Now I'm not all for giving a player everything he wants in the best way possible, however giving them a warning is generally good enough to get the point across.
Some things work really well when they require multiple wishes to fulfill too. If they wish for a holy avenger for example they might get a dormant one that either needs a quest to awaken or another couple of wishes to get up to full power.
It helps the player know he asked for too much without making yourself look like a jerk, or completely screwing over the player (and usually the party as well).
Well if it's a third party you can have some role playing to indicate it's nutters. Even an evil djinni might get a broad smile hinting at what's to come and ask "Are you certain that is your wish?".
If the player is trying to cast something outside the realm of whats explicit in the spell you think is unreasonable maybe a softball spellcraft check and suggest "You get a feeling that wishing for that might be dangerous."
In general I agree with Blake and you that if a player is trying to do something reasonable (and particularly if it's cool) that shafting the player is just plain bad GMing. The exception being it can be fun to get a bit creative when an evil or coerced djinni is involved but players should expect a coerced wish to be a double edged sword.
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This has already probably been mentioned but, and i am jumping between this site and writing my paper, i have always let players wish for anything. Of course, they *never* get what they wished for, but what they do get is perhaps a general direction/location of said item. It makes a great adventure out of it; besides, just because a player may know a general location and nothing else, does not in any way equate to the player being able to obtain it. Obviously, the formula usually works out thus: high level items = high level resistance/protection of said item. Thoths two coppers.
Thoth-Amon
Easy DM disclaimer, given to players ahead of time: "Just so you're aware: any overpowered wish is going to be used by me as our next plot hook."
Sweet! That would instantly motivate me to overpower my wish - I LOVE plot hooks!
I once gave a player unlimited wishes that he could make whenever he wanted to (actually a limit of 3/day) with no XP or material cost. He was only 3rd level.
Yep, that's right. I did that.
An aging genie with no heirs was near death. He transformed into a weasel and snuck into the PCs camp and bit the PC in question, literally transfering his power to the PC, who from that moment on could make 3 wishes per day, at will.
But the PC didn't know this had happened. All he knew was that a weasel had bit him, and he smacked that weasel with a masterwork sword and the sword bounced off of it without hurting it, then the weasel ran away.
He didn't know he could make these wishes.
Over the course of the campaign, he became more and more genie-like. Gaining new ability scores, new immunities, etc. Funny thing was, he didn't find out until about the final month of the campaign when they were literally epic characters facing the ultimate epic bad guy and his minions.
But some funny things happened. Any time the player said "I wish" or "I want" I made it come true.
Once they were stuck outside a magical wizard tower and couldn't open the door. They literally sat there for about 2 hours failing to get in until they were out of ideas (one idea was to grind up the fighter who had natural regeneration and pour him like hamburger in through the tiny arrow slots, wait for him to regenerate and open the door - they never actually tried this idea though). Fianlly the player said "I wish we weren't stuck outside this stupid tower." I waited a minute and then had the door just open. All the players thought I was taking pity on them for all the stuff they had tried that had failed.
The player once said "Man, I wish we knew who had hired this assassin" and a few minutes later a messenger arrived with a note that told them who had hired the assassin. They never knew why.
And so on.
He probably only wished for about 5 or 6 things all campaign long (I deliberately picked the least "chatty" player - talkative players might have figured it out in a week or two and then start abusing it).
Great fun.