I just wanted to clarify something regarding using trip as an Attack of Opportunity with a Guisarm. The rules state that:
A) Entering a threatened square does not provoke an AoO, but leaving one does.
B)An attack of Opportunity is resolved BEFORE the action that triggers it.
Therefore:
If my character wields a Guisarm, which has reach and trip, he threatens all squares 10 feet away from him. If an enemy is 10 feet away, because of A above, if that enemy tries to step inside the Guisarm's reach, the enemy incurs an AoO. If I use the Guisarm's trip ability as my AoO, and succeed, because of B above, the enemly falls prone BEFORE stepping inside the Guisarm's reach, and is prone 10' away, thus vulnerable to a regular attach on my actual turn.
Do I have that right?
Yup.
Well, not exactly. The character could still choose to convert the standard action into a move action and crawl away. Since you cannot provoke two AoOs for moving in the threatened area of a single creature, he'd not have to worry about you (even if you had combat reflexes). However, unless he was a rogue with the rogue talent that lets him stand as a swift action, he's still prone and likely within your move+attack range (since you can only move at half speed while crawling).
However, in all likelihood, yeah, the poor sap is trapped.
Thanks, both of you, that's what I thought. Having him completely trapped is a bonus, my main reason for the tactic is to prevent him from getting inside my reach. Also why I think the Guisarm just begs to be wielded by characters with the Combat Reflexes feat.
Also, sorry for the typos. Late shift working as a cook + wine = messy posts.
Well, not exactly. The character could still choose to convert the standard action into a move action and crawl away. Since you cannot provoke two AoOs for moving in the threatened area of a single creature, he'd not have to worry about you (even if you had combat reflexes). However, unless he was a rogue with the rogue talent that lets him stand as a swift action, he's still prone and likely within your move+attack range (since you can only move at half speed while crawling).
However, in all likelihood, yeah, the poor sap is trapped.
Also, if he started further away and moved THROUGH the 10 foot square, he's really screwed blue.
Well, unless he was charging (a specific full-round action), he can still use the unused standard action to scuttle away once he gets tripped. Unless he used his standard already...
But the guisarm tripper is now going to be something that my players will have to defend against soon.
Well, unless he was charging (a specific full-round action), he can still use the unused standard action to scuttle away once he gets tripped. Unless he used his standard already...
But the guisarm tripper is now going to be something that my players will have to defend against soon.
Yeah, I'm thinking he's especially effective as a breakwater with allies on either side of him.
Make him large so that he threatens at 15 and 20 feet and have a pair of rogues just stand next to him waiting to destroy the poor sap who gets tripped. Bonus points for giving the rogues skirmisher builds so they can get back into place for the next tripped enemy.
heh.
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This question seems resolved, I just wanted to chime in.
I have a fighter1/wizard8 that uses a Guisarme, it works really well for him. Also has Improved Trip and Combat Reflexes.
This means, if the trip is successful you get a free attack at them. Also if they try to stand, you get another attack (although you can't trip them with that one).
It is a great way to slow down the enemy from ganking the wizard. I once had 3 enemies rush me, tripped them all. Then on my turn, back up and fireball them.
And, like mentioned above, being a wizard I can cast enlarge on myself to get even more reach... combine that with cat's grace and you have enough attacks of opportunity to keep a small army on their backs.
Yeah, I mentioned how well-suited to use with Combat Reflexes the guisarm seems.
I'm thinking of arming my Combat-Reflexes trained barbarian (Discussed here with it.
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Keep in mind that a character moving through multiple 'threatened' areas doesn't provoke more than one attack of opportunity, regardless of Combat Reflexes.
Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity: If you have the Combat Reflexes feat, you can add your Dexterity modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent.
Keep in mind that a character moving through multiple 'threatened' areas doesn't provoke more than one attack of opportunity, regardless of Combat Reflexes.
Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity: If you have the Combat Reflexes feat, you can add your Dexterity modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent.
Of this I'm aware, but as mentioned in the other thread, the character concept is supposed to be good at taking on multiple foes at once. And if he can't KILL them all in one blow, tripping their asses is a nice way of avoiding getting overwhelmed.
Quite true. You had just mentioned above that a guy starting more than 10 ft. away was more screwed than someone starting within your threat range, so I thought you might think that you could get two AoOs on said guy. :)
Nope, just was singling one person out to make sure I got the mechanics of each individual AoO correct. It wouldn't reall help if the trip caused the guy to fall at my feet, because he'd still be inside my reach. But that's not the case, I'm happy to have confirmed.
But yeah, reach + combat reflexes + trip = win
And based on Osprey71's comments, it would appear that reach + combat reflexes + Improved Trip = Epic win.
Greater Trip is even better, provoking another AoO when you successfully trip someone. :D
Definitely makes you an effective Area Denial Weapon.
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And based on Osprey71's comments, it would appear that reach + combat reflexes + Improved Trip = Epic win.
Oops, I got some 3.5 in my pathfinder. Improved Trip does not grant a free attack. Another sneaky little gotcha.
I just recently switched to pathfinder, looks like I'll need Greater Trip to get close to the 3.5 Improved Trip... It was pretty powerful.
And based on Osprey71's comments, it would appear that reach + combat reflexes + Improved Trip = Epic win.Oops, I got some 3.5 in my pathfinder. Improved Trip does not grant a free attack. Another sneaky little gotcha.
I just recently switched to pathfinder, looks like I'll need Greater Trip to get close to the 3.5 Improved Trip... It was pretty powerful.
Yeah, I've owned PF for less than a month and haven't flushed all the 3.5 out of my bloodstream yet either.
Yeah, I mentioned how well-suited to use with Combat Reflexes the guisarm seems.
I'm thinking of arming my Combat-Reflexes trained barbarian (Discussed here with it.
Don't forget to put armor spikes on his armor so you can attack adjacent foes if you need to.
Yeah, I mentioned how well-suited to use with Combat Reflexes the guisarm seems.
I'm thinking of arming my Combat-Reflexes trained barbarian (Discussed here with it.
Don't forget to put armor spikes on his armor so you can attack adjacent foes if you need to.
I think I'd rather go with spiked gauntlets, so I can use them without having to grapple.
I think I'd rather go with spiked gauntlets, so I can use them without having to grapple.
You can use armor spikes without having to grapple.
I think I'd rather go with spiked gauntlets, so I can use them without having to grapple.You can use armor spikes without having to grapple.
You're right, I missed that part.
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Doesn't crawling provoke in its own right? Thus, if someone tried to move past, and you tripped them, then they used another action to crawl, would that not also provoke?
...
Also, the whole "no more than one AoO for movement rule" is there to prevent a person from leaving, say, 3 threatened squares in a single move action (let's say he ran past the Combat Reflexes rogue) and allowing the rogue to get 3 AoO's on him.
I still think that if the person spends multiple actions to move (excluding double moves which are still considered "one movement") that he would provoke multiple AoO's. For example, if a harpy spent a move action to move along the ground through the rogue's threatened squares (stopping in front of the rogue), then the rogue gets an AoO. Let's assume the rogue got a crit, so the harpy doesn't want to press the fight. It attempts to take flight with it's remaining move action, thereby provoking a second AoO from the rogue.
If there anything that specifically refutes this interpretation, than I have not seen it.
EDIT: Never mind. I've found it and have now "seen" it.
If my character wields a Guisarm, which has reach and trip, he threatens all squares 10 feet away from him. If an enemy is 10 feet away, because of A above, if that enemy tries to step inside the Guisarm's reach, the enemy incurs an AoO. If I use the Guisarm's trip ability as my AoO, and succeed, because of B above, the enemly falls prone BEFORE stepping inside the Guisarm's reach, and is prone 10' away, thus vulnerable to a regular attach on my actual turn.
Do I have that right?
Right, except (and I haven't seen this mentioned above) if the opponent only 5' steps - from 10' to 5' - he won't provoke.
Right, except (and I haven't seen this mentioned above) if the opponent only 5' steps - from 10' to 5' - he won't provoke.
You took the words out of my mouth. If the person is 10' away they just need to take a 5' step and no AoO and if more than 10' they can charge and also no AoO. Unless there isn't the clear path to charge of coarse.
Right, except (and I haven't seen this mentioned above) if the opponent only 5' steps - from 10' to 5' - he won't provoke.You took the words out of my mouth. If the person is 10' away they just need to take a 5' step and no AoO and if more than 10' they can charge and also no AoO. Unless there isn't the clear path to charge of coarse.
Since when don't charges provoke?
I was surprised too, but they are listed as not provoking AoOs in the Combat section. I'm pretty sure that my group will continue to have the movement portion of charges provoke.
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Right, except (and I haven't seen this mentioned above) if the opponent only 5' steps - from 10' to 5' - he won't provoke.You took the words out of my mouth. If the person is 10' away they just need to take a 5' step and no AoO and if more than 10' they can charge and also no AoO. Unless there isn't the clear path to charge of coarse.
Also the withdraw action makes the first square not count for AoO so in all likelihood they can get away that way.
There ARE ways to get out of it, but they ALL take the tripped character out of combat for a round or two at the least. Which is just as good in my opinion.
I was surprised too, but they are listed as not provoking AoOs in the Combat section. I'm pretty sure that my group will continue to have the movement portion of charges provoke.
Hmmm. I always read that as meaning the attack portion of the charge doesn't provoke. Otherwise a charging character could run past a defending one (or through with acrobatics), entering and exiting multiple squares, without any worry of an AoO. That just doesn't seem right.
Yeah. That would be a reasonable way to interpret it, but RAW says something different. Keeping in mind that RAW is blind, I am going to suspect that RAI has the movement provoke, but the attack at the end does not. But RAW simply says that a charge is a full-round action that does not provoke.
Yeah, I think you're right.
Right, except (and I haven't seen this mentioned above) if the opponent only 5' steps - from 10' to 5' - he won't provoke.You took the words out of my mouth. If the person is 10' away they just need to take a 5' step and no AoO and if more than 10' they can charge and also no AoO. Unless there isn't the clear path to charge of coarse.
All good points, definitely makes the option a little less powerful than I thought, but still definitely a very useful fighting method. As for chargine, one workaround is the 3.5 feat Hold the Line, if a DM allows it.
Actually, the RAW speaks to this issue. You just need to look at footnote 1 on the chart:
"Regardless of the action, if you move out of a threatened square, you usually provoke an attack of opportunity. This column indicates whether the action itself, not moving, provokes an attack of opportunity."
There's no reason to believe that the movement from charging is an exception to this rule. RAW, charge's movement provokes AoO's.
I even looked right at that footnote... *facepalm* Okay, well that clears that up.
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Right, except (and I haven't seen this mentioned above) if the opponent only 5' steps - from 10' to 5' - he won't provoke.You took the words out of my mouth. If the person is 10' away they just need to take a 5' step and no AoO and if more than 10' they can charge and also no AoO. Unless there isn't the clear path to charge of coarse.
well if they are prone, and in reach, they have to stand up before they can charge, so that would provoke the AoO. If not in reach it doesn't matter anyway as they can do just about anything and not provoke AoO.
Actually, the RAW speaks to this issue. You just need to look at footnote 1 on the chart:
"Regardless of the action, if you move out of a threatened square, you usually provoke an attack of opportunity. This column indicates whether the action itself, not moving, provokes an attack of opportunity."
There's no reason to believe that the movement from charging is an exception to this rule. RAW, charge's movement provokes AoO's.
And a great big YAH! for common sense!
Since when don't charges provoke?Right, except (and I haven't seen this mentioned above) if the opponent only 5' steps - from 10' to 5' - he won't provoke.You took the words out of my mouth. If the person is 10' away they just need to take a 5' step and no AoO and if more than 10' they can charge and also no AoO. Unless there isn't the clear path to charge of coarse.
That was exactly my thought til I looked at the AoO table and it lists:
charge no
That was exactly my thought til I looked at the AoO table and it lists: charge no
Check the superscript on the heading of the Attack of Opportunity column. You will see a tiny 1 as a superscript, indicating a footnote reference.
Here is that reference: "1 Regardless of the action, if you move out of a threatened square, you usually provoke an attack of opportunity. This column indicates whether the action itself, not moving, provokes an attack of opportunity."
The charge action itself does not provoke, but the movement you perform during a charge action DOES provoke.
EDIT: Ninjas
That was exactly my thought til I looked at the AoO table and it lists: charge noCheck the superscript on the heading of the Attack of Opportunity column. You will see a tiny 1 as a superscript, indicating a footnote reference.
Here is that reference: "1 Regardless of the action, if you move out of a threatened square, you usually provoke an attack of opportunity. This column indicates whether the action itself, not moving, provokes an attack of opportunity."
The charge action itself does not provoke, but the movement you perform during a charge action DOES provoke.
That is what I suspected but hadn't confirmed yet.
That was exactly my thought til I looked at the AoO table and it lists: charge noCheck the superscript on the heading of the Attack of Opportunity column. You will see a tiny 1 as a superscript, indicating a footnote reference.
Here is that reference: "1 Regardless of the action, if you move out of a threatened square, you usually provoke an attack of opportunity. This column indicates whether the action itself, not moving, provokes an attack of opportunity."
The charge action itself does not provoke, but the movement you perform during a charge action DOES provoke.
EDIT: Ninjas
That is how I thought it should work. Just because you're running fast(and recklessly -2AC) shouldn't protect you from attacks. Thanks for pointing that out.
That is how I thought it should work. Just because you're running fast(and recklessly -2AC) shouldn't protect you from attacks. Thanks for pointing that out.That was exactly my thought til I looked at the AoO table and it lists: charge noCheck the superscript on the heading of the Attack of Opportunity column. You will see a tiny 1 as a superscript, indicating a footnote reference.
Here is that reference: "1 Regardless of the action, if you move out of a threatened square, you usually provoke an attack of opportunity. This column indicates whether the action itself, not moving, provokes an attack of opportunity."
The charge action itself does not provoke, but the movement you perform during a charge action DOES provoke.
EDIT: Ninjas
All of which is why, IMHO, a weapon with reach is to be prefeered to a weapon with Set, since the latter requires a prepared action, the former merely an AoO.