I was wondering if there is anyone out there who totally gets how to resolve conflicts in Mouseguard. I have Gm'd the game multiple times and still I am not exactly sure if I have ever done it right. MayBe you could walk me through, or know of a good walkthrough...HELP I want to play it again!
I doubt that I am the best source but the key idea of Mouseguard is that it is a negotiated result.
This is different then many main line games in that there is usually not a clear winner and loser. You instead set an objective for each side and see what portions of the objectives get completed at the end of the combat.
It is often best when setting up a situation to not provide a simple kill or be killed type of situation.
Burning Empires, also by Burning Wheel makers of Mouseguard, is a good example of the pair of sides often both achieving something in a conflict.
In Burning Empires, the BBEG might choose to hold a mass protest rally against the government. The real purpose of the rally might be to spread alien parasites to many different people.
The players will likely react to the rally by trying to break up the rally with either a counter demonstration or some force. If the players are paying attention then they might even catch on to the real purpose of the rally and take action to stop the spread of the alien parasites.
You now have two clearly defined objectives by the villians and the players. If the players do well then they get to break up the rally and stop the infestation.
The villians though get to walk away with a consulation prize related to the conflict. The villians might choose to have a few people end up getting infected with the alien parasite. The villians might choose to have one important person get infected with the alien parasite. The villians might give up on any new victims of the parasite but instead have the players be publicly shown as brutes for how they broke up the protestors and discredit the government in the eyes of the public and media.
Combat is not really a measure of how hard someone got hurt but where on the scale of outcomes did the battle end up.
A good combat should not be the Mouseguard went into the forest to look for a fox to beat up. A good combat should have a story connected to it like the Mouseguard are protecting a grain shipment to a starving outpost or attempting to find a new safe path around a fox den.
The negotiation at the start and end of the combat will tell much of the success and failure for the Mouseguard. Did they choose to abandon some of the grain to make an escape? Did any of their number get injured making that person a liability or forcing the group to travel slower exposing them to more danger?
The actual swings and and parries don't matter as much as how the battle fits into the overal negotiation at the start and end of the combat.
I hope that helps some.
I doubt that I am the best source but the key idea of Mouseguard is that it is a negotiated result.
This is different then many main line games in that there is usually not a clear winner and loser. You instead set an objective for each side and see what portions of the objectives get completed at the end of the combat.
It is often best when setting up a situation to not provide a simple kill or be killed type of situation.
Burning Empires, also by Burning Wheel makers of Mouseguard, is a good example of the pair of sides often both achieving something in a conflict.
In Burning Empires, the BBEG might choose to hold a mass protest rally against the government. The real purpose of the rally might be to spread alien parasites to many different people.
The players will likely react to the rally by trying to break up the rally with either a counter demonstration or some force. If the players are paying attention then they might even catch on to the real purpose of the rally and take action to stop the spread of the alien parasites.
You now have two clearly defined objectives by the villians and the players. If the players do well then they get to break up the rally and stop the infestation.
The villians though get to walk away with a consulation prize related to the conflict. The villians might choose to have a few people end up getting infected with the alien parasite. The villians might choose to have one important person get infected with the alien parasite. The villians might give up on any new victims of the parasite but instead have the players be publicly shown as brutes for how they broke up the protestors and discredit the government in the eyes of the public and media.
Combat is not really a measure of how hard someone got hurt but where on the scale of outcomes did the battle end up.
A good combat should not be the Mouseguard went into the forest to look for a fox to beat up. A good combat should have a story connected to it like the Mouseguard are protecting a grain...
Sort of but how does that all look in dice rolls?
Ok, let's take the example of Thom and Sloan in Trouble at Grasslake p 289 to 296 in the Mouseguard RPG book.
I'll just focus on Thom and Sloan to reduce the number of characters in the example.
Okay, it is the GM's Turn and the GM has explained the situation of the monster attacking the town. Thom knows that his friend's, Harold's, brewery is in danger of destruction. Sloan knows that her enemey Lester the ex-tenderfoot is in the area.
Players are asked to write goals for the mission.
Thom chooses the goal, "I will will Save Harold's brewery and protect the town."
Thom's Instinct is to "Always protect the tenderfoot"; so, what will happen if Thom has to choose between the life of a tenderfoot and Harold's brewery?
Sloan chooses the goal, "To Find and confront Lester and prove that he was not fit to be a member of the Mouseguard."
Sloan's Belief of "Being superior to all other mice in the territories" and the Instinct for "Always seek revenge," have Sloan already focused on something other than the monster attacking the village.
These are good things and the way Mouseguard is supposed to develop in a game session.
At this point, the player's don't know what kind of monster has attacked Grasslake.
Thom has to decide between his immediate need to charge in and directly confront what is attacking the village or attempt to do some reconissance first to learn more of the type of monster they are facing.
Sloan, not realizing Harold is Thom's friend, chooses to act on his belief, and says, "It's probably just a couple of leaves blowing through town. You know easily these locals get spooked."
Thom isn't happy with the comment but decides to choose caution over being brash. He trusts Harold's opinion.
Thom is patrol leader; so, he makes the call and chooses Sloan to do the obstacle roll.
"Just the same, Sloan, I want you to scout ahead and see what you can find out on this monster. Harold's my friend and I trust him to know more than someone who's not yet a patrol guard of what might be a monster in these parts."
Sloan grumbles but accepts the challenge. Sloan has Scout 4 and the GM sets the Obstacle at 2.
Sloan gets the 2 success needed but no extra success. The margin of success is thus 0. The GM tells Sloan that they can get close enough to see that there is a Turtle attacking the village. The GM doesn't have to add any more details as Sloan just made the result.
The GM wants to make the story a bit more personal for Sloan and adds the additional bit to the story that Sloan sees one mouse attempting to stab at the turtle with a spear. It appears to be Lester.
Now Sloan has to decide whether to immediately jump in and get involved in the conflict to help her enemey, Lester, or does she go and report back to Thom what she has seen.
What do you think Sloan should do?
Sloan is a tough guy and feels like here is an opportunity to show up lester. He will charge in with the goal of saving the day knowing Thom will come running to clean it up when he is gone to long.
Alright, Sloan is charging in to battle.
Now, a Snapping Turtle, I am ruling as being two levels above mice on the Natural Order Scale see p. 223 to 225.
Accordingly, the Snapping Turtle might not be killed by a Conflict action (a single mouse or even a small group of mice just aren't enough to bother a turtle even if they are armed with weapons). It will take at least a group of 20 armed mice working together to threaten the Turtle enough to kill it.
Sloan is currently armed with a Shield which can be used as a weapon to hit with and gives +2D on Defend actions; see p 118. Sloan's other gear is a closed bag.
Sloan currently doesn't have either the Hunter or Fighter skills. Sloan can used Nature(Mouse) 6 as a replacement but combat goes against your nature. Success will slightly deplete your Nature and failure will have a big reduction of your Nature.
From p 292 Sloans full list of skills are;
Scout 4, Survivalist 3, Weather Watcher 3, Deceiver 3, Archivist 3, Glazier 2, Smith 2, and Poison-wise 2.
The turtle's immediate goal is to demolish the bakery. The fire and coals from the ovens are nice and warm after being in cold lake water.
The turtle will roll for its starting Disposition.
The Turtle's Nature is 8 so it rolls 8d6 and adds 8 to the number of success.
6 success which gives the Turtle a Dispostion of 6 + 8 = 14
Now, while 'save the day' sounds like a good goal, it needs to be a bit more specific.
The best types of goals are specific in what you are going to do or accomplish if everything goes your way. Just remember that killing the turtle is just too big for Sloan to do alone. That still leaves actions like drive off, blind, intimidate, toss hot coals down the turtle's mouth, or other objectives. Remember, if you lose then you will be using your objective to negotiate some partial victory for your character.
Sloan is an intelligent mouse but still a mouse facing something that in perspective to it is at least as big as an African elephant if not bigger.
When you choose your immediate goal, roll Sloan's Nature in Dice and add it to Sloan's Health 6 to determine Sloan's starting Disposition.
Thom will miss at least the first round of actions (3 choices of actions).
ok then I would like to use my deceiver and possibly survivor to cause so much ruckus that they the turtle will follow me out of town. HE is slow so i know i can lose him later.
- WHy are you rolling and adding up the numbers? Are you just adding the successes together, and why?
-If i had attacked the turtle how ould i have done damage to him, subtract my successes from his or what?
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- WHy are you rolling and adding up the numbers? Are you just adding the successes together, and why?
I think he is using the auto-roller on these message boards. Since Pathfinder is a d20 based game, the auto-roller automatically sums up the dice for you, which is not necessary for this game. So just ignore the total and look at which dice come up as successes.
Thanks for this example, Smerg, it's helpful to me as well!
- WHy are you rolling and adding up the numbers? Are you just adding the successes together, and why?
I think he is using the auto-roller on these message boards. Since Pathfinder is a d20 based game, the auto-roller automatically sums up the dice for you, which is not necessary for this game. So just ignore the total and look at which dice come up as successes.
Thanks for this example, Smerg, it's helpful to me as well!
Pulp is right. I am using the die roller on the board here;
{dice}8d6{/dice} except change the { for [ to get dice. You can use the 'Show' button to see the BBCode tag details.
Unfortunately, as far as I know, the dice roller on these boards is a straight forward roll and add up code which is not the way these are done in Mouseguard.
Mouseguard is a roll d6 and count 4+ as successes. p 13.
I'm just making do with the tech that I have on hand.
The turtle rolled 8d6 and had 6 dice that were 4+ resulting in 6 successes ( the roll of 1 and 2 were 'cowards' since Mouseguard avoids negative language like failure).
PS: Glad to help with the example. I like the Burning Wheel system though I don't currently have the right gaming group for it. I hope to one day when my nephew is a tad older to be able to use it with him (gave him some Mouseguard comic books last summer when he passed this way with his parents).
ok then I would like to use my deceiver and possibly survivor to cause so much ruckus that they the turtle will follow me out of town. HE is slow so i know i can lose him later.
- WHy are you rolling and adding up the numbers? Are you just adding the successes together, and why?
-If i had attacked the turtle how ould i have done damage to him, subtract my successes from his or what?
Whether you attack the turtle with your Shield or you try to distract the turtle into following you it works pretty much the same though the skills involved as a Mouseguard change and what your final goal might be changes.
Now, the turtle, being a turtle doesn't change in how it rolls for disposition. It only has turtle nature which is an 8 (turtles don't have sophisticated things like skills).
Sloan's though has changed things from a physical battle to a bit more of a mental battle by seeing if it is possible to trick the turtle into following after Sloan. I am going to rule that this is a type of Chase (see p 104 for the chart of typical types of conflicts and skills used).
Sloan has the Traits of Cunning and Graceful that can be useful in a Chase conflict.
A Chase uses the Skill of Scout (Sloan has Scout 4) to Attack and Maneuver while Pathfinder (a skill doesn't have and would have to default to Nature(Mouse) ) is used for Defend and Feint. p 111.
If you can describe a way for Sloan to use Survivalist or Cunning then you can earn +1s (or one extra success) on a check roll (come up with some dirty trick).
I will also allow Sloan, being a smart mouse, a +1D (or one extra die on one roll during the chase to be used at any time you want).
To start the chase, you need to determine Sloan's Disposition (this is the same as if you were doing a fight). This being a chase, Sloan will use Scout 4 and add it to Sloan's Nature 6.
The turtle will change its goal to an appropriate chase goal and "try to catch Sloan". Snapping Turtles have long necks so the Turtle might choose to add one die to an Attack action(+1D) so Sloan will need to be careful. Turtles also have hard shells; so, if they get bothered they often will retreat for a moment before coming back out (+3D on Defend action).
So, use the dice roller to work out Sloan's Disposition.
You also need to figure out the first three actions Sloan will do.
The four choices are Attack, Defend, Feint, and Maneuver (even though this is a Chase they use the same terms). see p 104 - 110. Especially look at the Action Table on p 109.
Also, review the part on p 105 which discusses Action Abstraction. This is the part that is a bit different from many RPG. Mouseguard doesn't focus on the individual swings and parrys of a battle but covers more the overall 'flow' of an encounter. An 'Attack' in a chase could be getting the turtle to focus on coming after Sloan or it could be on getting enough of a lead to avoid the turtle biting Sloan. They are both similar things in a Chase.
sorry for the wait. Iam still not sure i completely understand. How do you get to subtract dmg?
Mouseguard doesn't really use 'damage' like in many other games because you don't have 'hit points/health points'.
When a conflict starts you roll a skill and the number of successes are added to a base value (usually Health or Will). This only gives you the amount of a points available for that conflict.
Instead of 'hit points/health points';
Mouseguard has several 'conditions' that a Mouse might come away from a conflict (or just a bad skill roll).
See p 68 for Failure. The conditions are Hungry, Angry, Tired, Injured, and Sick. There is really the additional condition of Dead but Death only is involved in a conflict if it is stated in the initial goals of the conflict. Usually at the end of the conflict, there is some discussion on what condition the winner and loser should be in and it should match the conflict.
For example, if you are in an arguement conflict then Angry is an appropriate condition while Sick usually isn't. Though, if the mouse already had the Angry condition then it might be appropriate to give them the Sick condition at then end of the arguement (Stress from already being worn out bringing on the Sick condition). If the mouse already had Angry and Sick then it might be possible to put Injured as a condition (Stress Heart Attack being the explanation).
The working out of 'damage' to the mouse only occurs after the conflict instead of during the conflict. The end negotiation between the parties involved in the conflict is when the 'final editing' occurs of the battle and the results are determined.
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During the conflict, 'damage' is applied against the Disposition of each side until one side (or both sides) are brought to zero. Depending on the comparision of actions taken (see the Action Table on p 109) determines on how the skill rolls for each side will be compared and applied to the opposite team's Dispostion.
For example if one side choose an Attack action and the other side also chooses the Attack action then this is an 'Independent Test'. An Independent Test means each side rolls their skills and applies their successes as damage to the other side.
On the other hand if one side chooses an Attack action and the other side chooses the Defend action then this is a 'Verses Test'. A Verses Test has both sides roll successes and only the differance is applied to the loser of the test.
Those are the main two types but their are a few special combinations like when a Feint is used against an Attack. The rules for this are inside the Mouseguard book under the section entitled Feint action.