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Bitter Thorn |
![Harsk](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/Pathfinder6_Ranger.jpg)
"And it is absurd to the point of Senatorial apoplexy that the U.S. government would add even a single gun to the narco-terrorists’ supply. The idea that the federal agency in charge of preventing illegal firearms sales and gun smuggling allowed illegal firearms sales and gun smuggling to secure funds to stop illegal firearms sales and smuggling is quite literally nuts. And yet this the ATF did, with the full knowledge of one Eric Holder, Attorney General of the United States."
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Doodlebug Anklebiter |
![Goblin](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/Pathfinder1_02b.jpg)
"In a second, equally explosive disclosure, a law enforcement source tells Fox News, that ATF undercover agents were acting as the straw buyers and purchasing guns using government-issued false identifications and then providing those guns to cartel traffickers to gain credibility in their undercover roles. In that capacity, the ATF "provided 2, 50 cal. machine guns to traffickers that are loose in Mexico and unaccounted for," the source said.
Yet, the ATF and the Department of Justice did not shut down the operation."
"President Obama and Holder maintain they know nothing about Operation Fast and Furious until it was disclosed in the press."
What I find most worrisome here is that the US guv'ment is now naming ops after Vin Diesel movies.
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Bitter Thorn |
![Harsk](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/Pathfinder6_Ranger.jpg)
Bitter Thorn wrote:What I find most worrisome here is that the US guv'ment is now naming ops after Vin Diesel movies."In a second, equally explosive disclosure, a law enforcement source tells Fox News, that ATF undercover agents were acting as the straw buyers and purchasing guns using government-issued false identifications and then providing those guns to cartel traffickers to gain credibility in their undercover roles. In that capacity, the ATF "provided 2, 50 cal. machine guns to traffickers that are loose in Mexico and unaccounted for," the source said.
Yet, the ATF and the Department of Justice did not shut down the operation."
"President Obama and Holder maintain they know nothing about Operation Fast and Furious until it was disclosed in the press."
LOL! further damning evidence of their poor judgment. ;)
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Bitter Thorn |
![Harsk](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/Pathfinder6_Ranger.jpg)
ATF UNDER SIEGE Time 6-24-1995
Interesting old article about corruption and racism in Clinton's ATF.
Here is an interesting article about more corruption in the Bush BATFE.
This is a group that has deep and long term corruption issues from top to bottom.
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Doodlebug Anklebiter |
![Goblin](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/Pathfinder1_02b.jpg)
Bitter Thorn wrote:ATF UNDER SIEGE Time 6-24-1995
Interesting old article about corruption and racism in Clinton's ATF.
Here is an interesting article about more corruption in the Bush BATFE.
This is a group that has deep and long term corruption issues from top to bottom.
And has for a long time, if I remember my Prohibition history correctly.
"Well, the G-men, T-men, revenoors, too,
Searching and searching for where he made his brew
The law kept on looking, but my pappy kept on cooking
Whee-oow, whi-ite lightn'n"
And I'll just whisper
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Bitter Thorn |
![Harsk](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/Pathfinder6_Ranger.jpg)
Bitter Thorn wrote:Bitter Thorn wrote:ATF UNDER SIEGE Time 6-24-1995
Interesting old article about corruption and racism in Clinton's ATF.
Here is an interesting article about more corruption in the Bush BATFE.
This is a group that has deep and long term corruption issues from top to bottom.
And has for a long time, if I remember my Prohibition history correctly.
"Well, the G-men, T-men, revenoors, too,
Searching and searching for where he made his brew
The law kept on looking, but my pappy kept on cooking
Whee-oow, whi-ite lightn'n"And I'll just whisper ** spoiler omitted **
Ruby Ridge in the first Bush administration also, among countless other incidents of murder, perjury and brutality.
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Bitter Thorn |
![Harsk](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/Pathfinder6_Ranger.jpg)
Bitter Thorn wrote:
Ruby Ridge in the first Bush administration also, among countless other incidents of murder, perjury and brutality.I forgot the Randy Weaver b+~$%+!@ went down under Bush I--I was young then and I always associate the face of ATF evil with Janet Reno.
The ATF really has been quite consistent in how screwed up it has been for decades. It still chaps my hide that Bush jr didn't have the balls to annihilate the ATF entirely when they did the big DHS shuffle at Justice. Like the bumper sticker says "Alcohol, Tobacco,and Firearms should be a convenience store not a government bureaucracy!".
EDIT:
It boggles my mind that the federal human waste that botched Ruby Ridge so badly wound up being promoted and wound up in charge of Waco. Hell Louis Freeh wound up in charge of the FBI after Waco. Way to fail upward scumbag. I gather the ATF is even more screwed up.
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Doodlebug Anklebiter |
![Goblin](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/Pathfinder1_02b.jpg)
Doodlebug Anklebiter wrote:"Alcohol, Tobacco,and Firearms should be a convenience store not a government bureaucracy!".Bitter Thorn wrote:
Ruby Ridge in the first Bush administration also, among countless other incidents of murder, perjury and brutality.I forgot the Randy Weaver b+~$%+!@ went down under Bush I--I was young then and I always associate the face of ATF evil with Janet Reno.
Sounds like a party to me.
Hee hee! Haven't seen that sticker.
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Ancient Sensei |
![Acererak](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/Acererak.jpg)
Hypocrite:
a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, esp. a person whose actions belie stated beliefs.
I think you're choosing not to see the point. If your behavior contrary to principle is intended to illustrate absurdity or to prevent further harm, it isn't hypocritical. If I rail against government waste and then take a tax credit on the golf cart to show how absurd the system is, I'm not a hypocrit, I'm dragging you down the government waste rabbit hole. It's deep. It echoes in here.
But also, if I want to affect change in the system because it is broken, that doesn't mean I am a hypocrit for participatingin the system. This isn't owning slaves and preaching against slavery. If someone hates government abuse, and feels abused by the government as a result of wasted money and confiscated taxes, maybe the tax credit reimburses him for having to work til June to pay his taxes. If he advocates a retail sales tax instead of a tax code with tax breaks, wold you call him a hypocrite for taking current tax breaks? Of course not. The system he's looking for isn't in place, and if it were he wouldn't take advantage of the sucky things that had just been abolished.
We should be more offended by a government that continues to screw things up than by someone who demonstrates how the system is broken.
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Kirth Gersen |
![Satyr](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/satyr.jpg)
If your behavior contrary to principle is intended to illustrate absurdity or to prevent further harm, it isn't hypocritical.
Agreed, but there's a fine line. "I'm tryin' to show it's absurd!" should not be a get-out-of-jail-free card for cavalierly giving oneself ulimited license to engage in exactly the practices one is condemning.
Imagine if good ol' anti-gay pastor Ted Haggard, upon getting caught with a male prostitute, had tried to use that defense -- everyone in the world would still know he was full of s#!+.
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Bitter Thorn |
![Harsk](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/Pathfinder6_Ranger.jpg)
Ancient Sensei wrote:If your behavior contrary to principle is intended to illustrate absurdity or to prevent further harm, it isn't hypocritical.Agreed, but there's a fine line. "I'm tryin' to show it's absurd!" should not be a get-out-of-jail-free card for cavalierly giving oneself ulimited license to engage in exactly the practices one is condemning.
Imagine if good ol' anti-gay pastor Ted Haggard, upon getting caught with a male prostitute, had tried to use that defense -- everyone in the world would still know he was full of s#!+.
I seem to recall that whatever his story was it was pretty absurd.
I also remember when the Sheriff's office raided New Life.
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Freehold DM |
![Drow Dancer](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/DrowDancer.jpg)
Wow!
not in the US, but wow!
I truly hate math. It heartens me to know that there is someone worse than me at it. I do hope one day that mathies come together to realize that they do more harm than good when it comes to encouraging others to be proficient at what comes naturally to them.
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Kirth Gersen |
![Satyr](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/satyr.jpg)
I do hope one day that mathies come together to realize that they do more harm than good when it comes to encouraging others to be proficient at what comes naturally to them.
Reality break: math does not come naturally to anyone. Everyone has to work at it. Some people work harder than others, or more importantly, with less resentment towards it.
"Whatever your difficulties in mathematics, let me assure you that mine are far greater." --Albert Einstein
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Freehold DM |
![Drow Dancer](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/DrowDancer.jpg)
Freehold DM wrote:I do hope one day that mathies come together to realize that they do more harm than good when it comes to encouraging others to be proficient at what comes naturally to them.Reality break: math does not come naturally to anyone. Everyone has to work at it. Some people work harder than others, or more importantly, with less resentment towards it.
"Whatever your difficulties in mathematics, let me assure you that mine are far greater." --Albert Einstein
derisive snort
didn't spend much time with the math team guys, did we? I we are going to have to disagree on this one.![](/WebObjects/Frameworks/Ajax.framework/WebServerResources/wait30.gif)
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Xpltvdeleted wrote:Wouldn't it have been just as effective to write an expose on the credit? He definitely didn't need to go out and buy one then double dip by writing it off as a charitable donation.No, it wouldn't.
If he simply wrote an expose about it, there would be people who would claim no such loophole existed.
Instead, he went out and did everything to show the loophole exists and can be used for an unintended purpose.
He would have been a hypocrite if he kept the golf cart.
He is a hypocrite by keeping the deduction.
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Bitter Thorn |
![Harsk](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/Pathfinder6_Ranger.jpg)
Bitter Thorn wrote:I truly hate math. It heartens me to know that there is someone worse than me at it. I do hope one day that mathies come together to realize that they do more harm than good when it comes to encouraging others to be proficient at what comes naturally to them.Wow!
not in the US, but wow!
"More than half of South Africa’s mathematics and science teachers are unqualified..."
I wonder if they have an NEA equivalent?
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Kirth Gersen |
![Satyr](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/satyr.jpg)
"More than half of South Africa’s mathematics and science teachers are unqualified..."
I wonder if they have an NEA equivalent?
Blame the gov't that pays them in peanuts, not the union. How do you expect to attract and keep qualified teachers if they're living at the poverty line?
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Freehold DM |
![Drow Dancer](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/DrowDancer.jpg)
Doodlebug Anklebiter wrote:Bitter Thorn wrote:
Ruby Ridge in the first Bush administration also, among countless other incidents of murder, perjury and brutality.I forgot the Randy Weaver b+~$%+!@ went down under Bush I--I was young then and I always associate the face of ATF evil with Janet Reno.
The ATF really has been quite consistent in how screwed up it has been for decades. It still chaps my hide that Bush jr didn't have the balls to annihilate the ATF entirely when they did the big DHS shuffle at Justice. Like the bumper sticker says "Alcohol, Tobacco,and Firearms should be a convenience store not a government bureaucracy!".
EDIT:
It boggles my mind that the federal human waste that botched Ruby Ridge so badly wound up being promoted and wound up in charge of Waco. Hell Louis Freeh wound up in charge of the FBI after Waco. Way to fail upward scumbag. I gather the ATF is even more screwed up.
bureaucracy no, regulation yes.
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Bitter Thorn |
![Harsk](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/Pathfinder6_Ranger.jpg)
Bitter Thorn wrote:Blame the gov't that pays them in peanuts, not the union. How do you expect to attract and keep qualified teachers if they're living at the poverty line?"More than half of South Africa’s mathematics and science teachers are unqualified..."
I wonder if they have an NEA equivalent?
I'm not sure what they pay in South Africa, but in the US the NEA and it's state affiliates tend to be the biggest obstacle to higher pay for teachers.
It's certainly true that the government has done an abysmal job managing education.
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Bitter Thorn |
![Harsk](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/Pathfinder6_Ranger.jpg)
Bitter Thorn wrote:bureaucracy no, regulation yes.Doodlebug Anklebiter wrote:Bitter Thorn wrote:
Ruby Ridge in the first Bush administration also, among countless other incidents of murder, perjury and brutality.I forgot the Randy Weaver b+~$%+!@ went down under Bush I--I was young then and I always associate the face of ATF evil with Janet Reno.
The ATF really has been quite consistent in how screwed up it has been for decades. It still chaps my hide that Bush jr didn't have the balls to annihilate the ATF entirely when they did the big DHS shuffle at Justice. Like the bumper sticker says "Alcohol, Tobacco,and Firearms should be a convenience store not a government bureaucracy!".
EDIT:
It boggles my mind that the federal human waste that botched Ruby Ridge so badly wound up being promoted and wound up in charge of Waco. Hell Louis Freeh wound up in charge of the FBI after Waco. Way to fail upward scumbag. I gather the ATF is even more screwed up.
Let's set aside for the moment the issue of how much control the government should have over weapons. Let's say (purely for the purpose of this discussion) that the federal government should be enforcing firearms laws. I would still argue that the BATFE is a corrupt, incompetent, racist, anachronism. Before 9-11 it was part of the Department of the Treasury. It's largely a relic of prohibition, and this is still part of its institutional culture. It is a bureaucracy committed to justifying its own existence and expansion, and this need to justify its existence has led directly to some of its most tragic blunders like Waco and fast and furious. The duties of the BATFE could simply be assigned to the FBI.
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Bitter Thorn |
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Bitter Thorn |
![Harsk](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/Pathfinder6_Ranger.jpg)
Over a 59 month audit period (between 2002 and 2007), in a report dated September, 2008, the Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General, determined that 76 firearms and 418 laptop computers were lost, stolen or missing from ATF. The lap tops may have contained unencrypted sensitive personal information as well as classified data.
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Bitter Thorn |
![Harsk](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/Pathfinder6_Ranger.jpg)
"The bureau was widely criticized for its actions at Waco. A report on the incident issued by the Treasury Department concluded that the decision to proceed was wrong and that those in charge of the operation knew it was a mistake to proceed with the raid because the element of surprise was missing. The report found that bureau officials unwisely insisted on carrying out the February 28 raid even though the critical element of surprise had been lost. The bureau's director, Stephen E. Higgins, retired early from his position, and two agents, Phillip J. Chojnacki and Charles D. Sarabyn, were suspended for their roles in the botched raid. Chojnacki and Sarabyn appealed their suspensions, and, in December 1994, they were reinstated with full back pay and benefits, although they were demoted. In addition, the incident was removed from their personnel files."
BTW, they brought camera crews with them on the initial attack much like the Detroit cops who killed the Jones girl.
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Jeremy Mac Donald |
![Chuul](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/chuul.jpg)
Bitter Thorn wrote:Blame the gov't that pays them in peanuts, not the union. How do you expect to attract and keep qualified teachers if they're living at the poverty line?"More than half of South Africa’s mathematics and science teachers are unqualified..."
I wonder if they have an NEA equivalent?
I'd hesitate to start flinging to much blame in any one direction. Its country where something like 70% of the population is in dire poverty, the numbers of illiterate are huge and violence, often along racial lines threatens to break out at nearly any moment. Sometime the answers, even when they seem obvious can't be followed because its political suicide.
Its tough all around in South Africa and the place defies quick fixes or easy solutions.
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Kirth Gersen |
![Satyr](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/satyr.jpg)
Its tough all around in South Africa and the place defies quick fixes or easy solutions.
Well put, and very true. Applying U.S. standards to South Africa, even indirectly, was a very thoughtless thing for me to do, and I hereby unhesitatingly withdraw the comparison.
Treat my quote as applying solely to the U.S.
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Bitter Thorn |
![Harsk](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/Pathfinder6_Ranger.jpg)
Reports of Prison Rapes of Iranian Dissidents Spark Call for Protests
We have our own prison issues and lots of them, but I was surprised to see this reported.
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Bitter Thorn |
![Harsk](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/Pathfinder6_Ranger.jpg)
Bt, something is up in Arizona regarding some botched swat op that resulted in the death of an Iraq vet -shot an ungodly number of times. You know anything about this?
The cops are being very defensive, and they won't reveal what the warrant was that they were serving. Much like the Jones killing they haven't even proven that they attacked the right address. This entire incident may have started because of an AD by the attacking swat team, but the sheriff's department has quit responding to inquiries.
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Bitter Thorn |
![Harsk](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/Pathfinder6_Ranger.jpg)
SWAT raid fatal drama is revealed in 911 call
"More than a week later, few details about the investigation that brought the SWAT team to the home Guerena shared with his wife and their two young sons are known. Details of the search warrant have not been made public and deputies would not comment on what was seized from the home.
The Pima County Sheriff's Department has provided no details about the investigation that prompted the raid and little information about the moments leading up to 71 gunshots being fired at Guerena, whose gun had the safety on. He was shot 60 times, doctors told the family. Initially the Sheriff's Department said Guerena fired at officers, but they retracted that this week. Drexel Heights provided audio of the 911 calls after the Star filed a public records request."
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Bitter Thorn |
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Jeremy Mac Donald |
![Chuul](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/chuul.jpg)
New American editorial: auto bailouts
The weak point in this argument is the Canadian connection. The article wants to paint this as Democratic socialism in action...but if that was the case why was a right leaning Canadian conservative government on board and doing the same thing?
In effect I suspect that, while the nitty gritty details may have been slightly different, there would have been a bail out just the same even if the Republicans had won the presidency.
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Bitter Thorn |
![Harsk](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/Pathfinder6_Ranger.jpg)
Bitter Thorn wrote:New American editorial: auto bailoutsThe weak point in this argument is the Canadian connection. The article wants to paint this as Democratic socialism in action...but if that was the case why was a right leaning Canadian conservative government on board and doing the same thing?
In effect I suspect that, while the nitty gritty details may have been slightly different, there would have been a bail out just the same even if the Republicans had won the presidency.
That's certainly possible. Bush shares the guilt for TARP, and McCain voted for it too, IIRC. So Bush and McCain are definitely not limited government, free market advocates.
My understanding of Canadian politics is quite limited, but it looks like Canadian conservatives are quite comfortable with Democratic socialist policies like socialized medicine and nationalizing industries from my limited perspective.
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Bitter Thorn |
![Harsk](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/Pathfinder6_Ranger.jpg)
Indiana Supreme Court: No right to resist unlawful police entry in homes
in sharp contrast with
"We have currently in Indiana a statute, a self defense statute, that gives the right to defend any unlawful entry into one's home, vehicle while they're in it, or upon their person," Young said. "We want to make sure that this is clear that it also applies to the government."
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TheWhiteknife |
![Commoner](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/delicious.jpg)
Freehold DM wrote:Bt, something is up in Arizona regarding some botched swat op that resulted in the death of an Iraq vet -shot an ungodly number of times. You know anything about this?The cops are being very defensive, and they won't reveal what the warrant was that they were serving. Much like the Jones killing they haven't even proven that they attacked the right address. This entire incident may have started because of an AD by the attacking swat team, but the sheriff's department has quit responding to inquiries.
This is very very sad. I can not think of any sort of justification for SWAT teams.The police are supposed to apprehend people. Submachine guns and assault rifles are designed for only one thing, and it isnt apprehension.
SWAT supporters will always point to the north Hollywood shootout as justification for SWAT's existance. My question to that is: Why werent the gunman allowed to get away only to be arrested a few days later, say when they go to a grocery store or some such?
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TheWhiteknife |
![Commoner](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/delicious.jpg)
I should probably pick on the DEA soon too.
Just reading the "War on Drugs" wiki article is funny enough. Every few years the DEA requests a progress report from RAND. Every few years, RAND tells them that the War on Drugs leads to the narco cartels making record profits while being an absolute waste of an obscene amount of US resources. Every few years, the report is ignored. Rinse, repeat, ad nauseam. wiki
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Bitter Thorn |
![Harsk](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/Pathfinder6_Ranger.jpg)
Bitter Thorn wrote:I should probably pick on the DEA soon too.Just reading the "War on Drugs" wiki article is funny enough. Every few years the DEA requests a progress report from RAND. Every few years, RAND tells them that the War on Drugs leads to the narco cartels making record profits while being an absolute waste of an obscene amount of US resources. Every few years, the report is ignored. Rinse, repeat, ad nauseam. wiki
Well said.
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Kirth Gersen |
![Satyr](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/satyr.jpg)
So Bush and McCain are definitely not limited government, free market advocates.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahah!
Bailout #1: Bush, Jr.
Patriot Act: Bush, Jr.
SO, yeah. Everyone claims to be all about "limited government, free market." Almost nobody actually is. Certainly not any Democrats, nor any of the Republicans I can easily name.