I've been playing Baldur's Gate 2 recently and thought to myself that implementing the rogue kits in Pathfinder shouldn't be too tough. I am not a big fan of the assassin prestige class and I think this new swashbuckler could fill a niche some people might be looking for.
Swashbuckler
Advantages:
- Gets weapon training and weapon mastery as a fighter
- Gets bonus combat feats as a fighter every five levels
- Uses swashbuckler level to qualify for fighter feats
Disadvantages:
- No sneak attack. Rogue talents that rely on sneak attack still usable whenever a rogue would be able to sneak attack.
Assassin
Advantages:
- Sneak attack dice increased to d8
- Gets poison use and potent poisons
- Gets death attack and swift death
Disadvantages:
- Only 4 skill points per level
- No rogue talents
- No trap sense
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Most of the abilities can be found on the fighter class and the existing assassin prestige class. The only new ability is potent poisons, which increases the DC of all poisons the assassin uses as listed. The Angel of Death ability now also allows the assassin to use swift death at will.
Well, yeah, but the thing about templates is that they pretty much only offer advantages, except maybe for level adjustment.
The appeal about kits/class variants is that you exchange class abilities and get equally strong ones in return.
Hey, now there's some damn elegant class kits. You've even put abilities in at appropriate levels - a nuance that is lost on many.
The swashbuckler seems a bit on the squishy side, which is sad since he gives up so much sneak attack damage. D'ya think he could stand to get armor training as fighter, too?
I think getting Armor Training as a rogue talent that he could take multiple times would work quite nicely, actually!
Nice, I think the greatest strength of these guys is their simplicity. They are kits, not more or less totally new classes in all but name.
Well, let's compare a regular level 20 rogue to a level 20 swashbuckler
The rogue deals 10d6 (avg 35) sneak attack damage when flanking or attacking a flatfooted creature.
The swashbuckler, with weapon training, weapon specialization and greater weapon specialization, deals an extra 10 damage on every attack he makes, all the time. He also has weapon mastery and can get other otherwise fighter exclusive feats.
In terms of situational, pure damage, the regular rogue wins, but the swashbuckler is a lot more consistent.
Yeah but to do that you'd have to spend 3/5 feats on just damage? I thought the weapon spec chain ended at +4 damage not including power attack?
Since they get bonus feats, that seems adequate I think.
They get five bonus feats. You can spend those on stuff like Greater Weapon Spec, Greater Weapon Focus and Critical Mastery.
You can't forget that with greater weapon focus, a swashbuckler would have +6 attack over a regular rogue, which is really hefty, and would probably make the gap between the two even closer.
Maybe, but somehow I don't see an average of 35 situational damage being equivalent to 10 all the time damage if you spend most of your resources/lvl to get there.Since they get bonus feats, that seems adequate I think.
Yeah but to do that you'd have to spend 3/5 feats on just damage? I thought the weapon spec chain ended at +4 damage not including power attack?
You don't spend most of the resources per level, you spend most of the resources that would normally be sneak attack. So you get this in exchange for sneak attack, plus a few more feats up your sleeve.
EDIT: And on +6 from feats, it's +4 from Weapon Training, and +2 from Focus and Imp. Focus.
Wait the weapon focus chain gives you +6 to hit?They get five bonus feats. You can spend those on stuff like Greater Weapon Spec, Greater Weapon Focus and Critical Mastery.
You can't forget that with greater weapon focus, a swashbuckler would have +6 attack over a regular rogue, which is really hefty, and would probably make the gap between the two even closer.
Weapon training grants you +1 to damage AND hit, and they get it five times. That, alongside greater weapon focus (that regular rogues can't get) brings you up to +6 higher than them.
Wait the weapon focus chain gives you +6 to hit?They get five bonus feats. You can spend those on stuff like Greater Weapon Spec, Greater Weapon Focus and Critical Mastery.
You can't forget that with greater weapon focus, a swashbuckler would have +6 attack over a regular rogue, which is really hefty, and would probably make the gap between the two even closer.
The weapon training chain, which they get five times, gives them +1 to hit and damage. Alongside greater weapon focus, which regular rogues can't get, they have +6 attack bonus over a regular rogue.
That means that their second attack will hit as often as a regular rogue's first one does. Which is extra damage.
Hey Ellington, considering doing any more kits of this simple easy variety? I find the ones you put up above to be some of the best balanced I've seen.
That means that their second attack will hit as often as a regular rogue's first one does. Which is extra damage.
Hey Ellington, considering doing any more kits of this simple easy variety? I find the ones you put up above to be some of the best balanced I've seen.
Sure :) I've been fiddling around with the fighter since AC can become a bit redundant at higher levels. I've been working on a dedicated defensive kit, and I think this one might have a bit potential after some tweaking.
Guardian (I'm not sure on the name, but 'Defender' didn't sound good either. Ah well)
Advantages:
Gains Defensive tactics at 4th level and every four levels there after.
Gains defensive supremacy at 20th level.
Disadvantages:
Does not gain Weapon training.
Does not gain Weapon Mastery.
Defensive tactics (Ex)
Starting at fifth level, a guardian learns how to better avoid blows and mitigate damage from damaging attacks. He gains a +1 dodge bonus to his armor class and a damage reduction of 1/-.
Every four levels, these bonuses increase by +1. This damage reduction stacks with the bonus granted by armor mastery.
Defensive supremacy (Ex)
At 20th level the guardian becomes a bulwark of defense. Any roll made to confirm a critical hit against him is made at a -4 penalty. Furthermore, whenever a melee attacker deals damage to him which is decreased by the guardian‘s damage reduction, the attacker takes non-lethal damage equal to the damage reduced.
This is a really simple kit to be honest, in essence, what it gets at level 20 when compared to a regular fighter is +4 AC, +4/- damage reduction. What it loses out on is +4 hit and +4 damage. Also, the capstone abilities are different. The differences between this kit and the regular version don't come into play at higher levels, but I think people would build them differently from the start.
I want to make a (Frenzied) Berserker kit for the barbarian, but replacing trap sense with an ability that scales at the same pace is hard.
Hey there. I enjoyed your kits very much and they gave me new ideas.
The alternative to a kit which we are using in our group is a 5 level prestige class (Also, my group is going for lv30, so that might also be a decisive factor that made us opt for this). In our group, energy resistance replaces trap sense by default.
Flavour text omitted.
REQUIREMENTS
Base Attack Bonus: +6
Feats: Cleave, Great Cleave, Power Attack, Great power attack, Diehard.
Special: Strength Surge Rage power, Intimidating glare rage power. (Great power attack is a house ruled feat)
Level B.A.B Fort Save Ref Save Will Save Special
1st +1 +1 +0 +0 Frenzy
2nd +2 +1 +1 +1 Deathless Frenzy
3rd +3 +2 +1 +1 Inspire Frenzy
4th +4 +2 +1 +1 Frenzied power attack, frenzied cleave
5th +5 +3 +2 +2 Greater Frenzy
PRESTIGE CLASS FEATURES
Hit die: d12
Proficiencies: None
Skill points: 2 + Int modifier
Class skills: Climb, Intimidate, Jump, Survival, Swim.
Frenzy (Ex): At 1st-level the Frenzied Berserker gains the ability to frenzy. Frenzy adds a +4 bonus to Strength and imposes a -2 penalty to AC. When making a full attack action, she can also make an extra attack that round at her highest attack bonus.
Also, each round of frenzy, the character takes 4 points of subdual damage and uses a round of rage use per day. At the end of a frenzy, the character is fatigued for twice the number of rounds she spent in a frenzy. Levels of frenzied berserker stack with barbarian levels for purposes of determining the number of rounds a barbarian can rage per day.
Furthermore, the frenzied berserker must make a will save (DC 20) to stop her frenzy before she spends her daily allotment of rage rounds and if hit, she must make a will save (DC= damage taken during the round) to avoid entering a frenzy.
When in a frenzy the character must attempt to engage in melee. If all enemies in charge range are dead or unconscious, a frenzied character must attempt to engage allied creatures in melee, attacking at the best of her abilities, as if that creature were an enemy. If all creatures in charge range are dead or unconscious, the frenzied character must attempt to move at maximum speed toward the nearest creature (enemy or ally), in an attempt to initiate a new melee. If no potential targets can be sensed, a frenzied character will go on a search for new targets, stopping at least once per round, to vent his fury by attacking inanimate objects or the ground itself.
The GM is within his rights to overrule any declared actions, which he/she deems to constitute a player pulling their punches, even to the point of (in egregious cases) running that character as an NPC.
Deathless Frenzy (Ex): At 2nd level, when the Frenzied Berserker is under the effects of Frenzy, she will keep on fightning until she is brought to a negative hit point score equal to her class level multiplied by her constitution score.
Inspire Frenzy (Ex): At 3rd level, the Frenzied Berserker can inspire a Frenzy in all her allies. Inspire Frenzy grants an effect identical to the Frenzied Berserker's Frenzy, and each round the berserker maintains this ability, she spends 2 rounds of her daily rage allotment.
Frenzied power attack, frenzied cleave: Whenever the frenzied berserker uses power attack under a frenzy, the benefits granted are increased by 50%.
When cleaving in a frenzy, the barbarian can use his 5ft free move between cleave attempts and also hit non-adjacent enemies.
Greater Frenzy (Su): At 5th level, the Frenzied Berserker gains a +8 bonus to Strength while under Frenzy instead of a +4. This effect is not cumulative with any other effect granting an extra attack such as haste or a speed weapon.
Goign to try a skald and a "mageblade" bard kits later on.
I think replacing Uncanny Dodge with Diehard and Improved Uncanny dodge with Deathless frenzy would work quite nicely on the kit. I don't think I'll implement any bonuses to power attack though, they seem to deal enough damage as is.
Anyways, since I've been busy lately the only thing I've been able to come up with is an update on the Cloistered Cleric variant from UA which I prefer to call the Friar.
Friar
Advantages
- 6 skill points per level
- At 1st level gains the knowledge domain as a bonus domain
- At 5th, 10th, 15th and 20th level, gains a bonus feat from the list of metamagic, item creation or channeling feats
Disadvantages:
- HD down to d6
- Low base attack bonus
- Proficient only in simple weapons and light armor
If you are familiar with the Cloistered Cleric, I haven't changed much. I took away the Lore ability since the knowledge domain is better now, and gave it bonus feats every five levels as per a wizard, only they can also select channeling feats as well now.
I think replacing Uncanny Dodge with Diehard and Improved Uncanny dodge with Deathless frenzy would work quite nicely on the kit. I don't think I'll implement any bonuses to power attack though, they seem to deal enough damage as is.
Anyways, since I've been busy lately the only thing I've been able to come up with is an update on the Cloistered Cleric variant from UA which I prefer to call the Friar.
Friar
Advantages- 6 skill points per level
- At 1st level gains the knowledge domain as a bonus domain
- At 5th, 10th, 15th and 20th level, gains a bonus feat from the list of metamagic, item creation or channeling featsDisadvantages:
- HD down to d6
- Low base attack bonus
- Proficient only in simple weapons and light armorIf you are familiar with the Cloistered Cleric, I haven't changed much. I took away the Lore ability since the knowledge domain is better now, and gave it bonus feats every five levels as per a wizard, only they can also select channeling feats as well now.
Awesome! Keep up the good work!
Thanks!
The forums keep eating my posts, so I'll do this properly later today, but I also posted a berserker in that spreadsheet.
Those of you familiar with the frenzied berserker should recognize the abilities, with the addition of "deep wounds", which works like the fighter feat "penetrating strike", in bypassing damage reduction that isn't typeless. Frenzy is +6 strength and 1 extra attack at first level with 2 subdual damage every round, +10 strength at 11th level with 4 subdual damage every round and +14 strength at 20th level with 6 subdual damage every round.
Berserker
Advantages:
- Gains berserker frenzy instead of barbarian rage
- Gains diehard and deathless frenzy
- Gains deep wounds
Disadvantages
- Takes damage while in berserker frenzy
- Does not gain uncanny dodge or improved uncanny dodge
- Does not gain trap sense
The kits are looking good so far! I have a few suggestions about the swashbucker though. The swashbuckler should probably have some sort of AC increase. He's going to he in many more straight fights than a standard rogue, but doesn't have the heavy armor of a fighter.
There are two ways to do this...the old swashbuckler class gave dodge bonuses to AC at certain levels, or you could follow the duelist route and add Int to AC.
Another thing I would suggest is that you make the Swashbucker non reliant on Strength. Once again, there's the old swashbucker route (Int to damage against foes that can be critted) or the duelist route (insightful strike). Some people would suggest Dex to damage, but I think that's a bad idea just because of how much the class would get from dex with weapon finesse (AC, Attack, Damage, Reflex Saves, and lots of skills).
Intelligence as a substitution for damage is a prime contender for a rogue talent, but I'm not sure I want it as a core part of the kit.
Intelligence as a substitution for damage is a prime contender for a rogue talent, but I'm not sure I want it as a core part of the kit.
Hmmm, yep, that sounds like a good idea.
About the swashbuckler
For straight fights and AC, the armor trainning and allowing evasion on medium armor could work.
Adding intelligence could be unbalancing if intelligence is also replacing strangth for damage.
In the end I think every rogue would just go for high strength and high dexterity and totally dump strength at the cost of 1 feat and 1 rogue talent. Seems a little too cheap to me. Maybe make it be one of those lv10th+ only talents so that the character has to struggle for quite a while if he decides to min/max and dump strength.
Here's a ranger kit which I loosely took from BG2. Still too lazy to write up the Berserker's abilities properly :)
Stalker
Advantages
- Gains sneak attack
- Gains fast stealth (rogue talent)
- Adds following spells to his spell list: Disguise self (1st), Invisibility (2nd), Poison (3rd), Dimension Door (4th)
Disadvantages
-Does not gain combat style
-Does not gain hunter's bond
-Not proficient in medium armor
Exams are pouring over but I scribbled up a new one, probably one of my better ones so far. I'm very proud of this one. This takes elements from the marshal class from the Miniatures Handbook, but makes them better since that was a very shoddy class. I took a lot of the criticism the fighter has taken in other threads and tried to fix them as best I could and came up with what looks like a very playable class.
Feedback very welcome!
Marshal
Advantages:
Adds bluff and diplomacy to class skill list
Gains mental training
Gains tactical training
Disadvantages:
Does not gain weapon training and weapon mastery
Does not gain armor training and armor mastery
Mental training (Ex)
At 3rd level, a marshal gains a +2 bonus to his intelligence, wisdom or charisma. Every four levels thereafter (7th, 11th and 15th), he gains another +2 bonus to these scores. He cannot apply the bonus to the same ability score twice in a row. These bonuses stack with each other as the ones gained from gaining levels.
Tactical training(Ex)
At 5th level, a marshal can select a set of tactics, as noted below. As a swift action, he can grant himself and all allies within a 30 ft radius a +1 morale bonus on applicable rolls.
Every four levels thereafter, (9th, 13th and 17th) a marshal can select a new set of tactics. The morale bonuses granted from the tactics increase by +1 up to a maximum
of +4 at 17th level. The marshal can only issue a single set of tactics at once.
The tactics the marshal can choose from are as follows:
Alertness tactics Bonus on iniative rolls and AC against attacks of opportunity.
Cunning tactics Bonus on dexterity and intelligence based checks, including reflex saves.
Defensive tactics Bonus to AC.
Maneuver tactics Bonus on CMB rolls and CMD.
Mighty tactics Bonus on strength and constitution based checks, including fortitude saves.
Powerful tactics Bonus on damage rolls
Precision tactics Bonus on melee and ranged attack rolls
Spiritual tactics Bonus on wisdom and charisma based checks, including will saves.
Swift tactics +5 movement speed for each +1 bonus.
Inspiring leader(Ex)
At 19th level, the marshal grants his allies the hope to fight on through great wounds. Every ally within 30 ft of the marshal is treated as having the ferocity ability.
Tactical Mastery(Ex)
At 20th level, the marshal's tactical ability is unmatched. He gains a frightful presence with a 30 ft. radius (DC equal to base attack) and the radius of his tactical training and inspiring leader abilities increase to 60 ft.