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This is an offshoot from an idea tangent I was on from the Swarm familiar thread. I didn't want to derail that thread any further so I'm starting a new thread here.
How it started was over the idea of a swarm familiar. This tied in perfectly with a concept I wanted to do with the alchemist Im currently running. The idea is I wanted to construct somehow a Chymick swarm, as statted out by current RPG superstar finalist Alexander MacLeod. The idea being my character would over the course of adventure downtime craft using alchemy a chymick swarm to server as a portable alchemy lab, and with more flavor than just an alchemy lab in a bog of holding. An idea was brought up, when it appeared that even with the craft construct feat, an alchemist lacks the spells required to make the swarm, to create some sort of Craft Alchemical Construct feat that allowed for the making of small, alchemical themed constructs. Chymick swarm would fit in there, homunculi would fit in there as well. The first suggestion was by maeloke, and they said:
Well, one of the beautiful things in this case particular is that neither the alchemist nor the chymick swarm are strictly canon as yet, so there's a lot of wiggle room for houseruling. Why not just tweak the construction requirements to fit the alchemist's extract list? Within reason, of course.
As for the feats, I might make up a feat like Craft Alchemical Construct, permitting chymick swarms, homonculi, and other small inoffensive constructs in that vein (as opposed to big, armored bruisers). Prerequisites Craft (alchemy) 5 ranks, Craft Wondrous Item, and Brew Potion.
Which seems to make sense to me. My question is what other sort of small constructs could fit in this theme? Maeloke's idea led me to the idea of a tinkerer type character, an alchemist with numerous small, non-combative alchemical constructs. My thinking was to put in some sort of white list of appropriate constructs allowed, and was wondering if anyone else could think of what would be appropriate.
Also, the prereqs. Craft (alchemy) seems a no brainer, the other ones seem to fit as well. Do they look fair/balanced to anyone else? Im hoping with some good brain storming and help from this fine community I can put together a fair proposal for my DM to look over that would allow this to come to fruition in my game. Thanks to maeloke for getting my brain rolling and their initial ideas, and preemptive thanks to anyone else jumping in with stuff.
I really like this idea but do Alchemists have to take the Master Craftsman feat or do their extracts and things like that give them a caster level?
On another note I might add chimeras (maybe a less powerful version), less powerful/smaller golems (maybe reduce them by 1 or 2 sizes thus reducing their price a little), mimics possibly, gargoyles possibly, gelatinous cubes maybe, rust monsters?, shambling mounds?, certain mephits (steam mephits)? I'm not sure about any of these but I can see an alchemist making some of them.
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I really like this idea but do Alchemists have to take the Master Craftsman feat or do their extracts and things like that give them a caster level?
Well, it does say that for the purposes of their extracts, their caster level is equal to their alchemist level. This was enough for my current DM to qualify me for the craft wand feat when I asked him about it, ymmv with your DM.
Ya, I was just curious I figured it was probably a DM thing right now as the classes aren't 100% finished.
Isn't an "alchemical construct" a homunculus...?
Isn't an "alchemical construct" a homunculus...?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homunculus
A homunculus is a type of alchemical construct but not the only 1.
For the more biological-type constructs, like homonculi, I like the idea of permitting a wide variety of small creatures (especially those weird ones like chimera), but having some sort of homonculus template thrown on them. Possibly in addition to the 'young' template, to make them wacky instead of dangerous. If that notion appeals, I could cook up a generic homonculus template pretty quickly by tweaking the skeleton template.
For animate nonliving objects like the chymick swarm, I think the vast majority of 'it follows me and helps with noncombat stuff' could be replicated by simple animated objects. Add a couple new options to the construction points, like:
1CP: Object grants creator a +4 circumstance bonus to one Craft skill, chosen at creation and replacing the bonuses from masterwork equipment.
1CP: Object floats a few inches above the ground rather than lurching on it. It ignores difficult terrain and can levitate as per the spell at it's creator's command.
1CP: Object has an intelligence of 1 and can repeat a few generic phrases such as "Welcome to my master's abode" and "Would you care for a healing potion?".
etc.
Base pricing for homonculi can probably directly translated to most other creatures, homonculus template creatures and animated objects included. It could make for cheap big monsters, but then, look at the bargain necromancers get on their skeletons.
At worst, perhaps levy a premium on larger stuff, maybe like: +1,000 for small, +2,000 for medium, +4,000 for large, +8,000 for huge, +16,000 for gargantuan, +32,000 for colossal.
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For the more biological-type constructs, like homonculi, I like the idea of permitting a wide variety of small creatures (especially those weird ones like chimera), but having some sort of homonculus template thrown on them. Possibly in addition to the 'young' template, to make them wacky instead of dangerous. If that notion appeals, I could cook up a generic homonculus template pretty quickly by tweaking the skeleton template.
Yeah, that could be a pretty cool idea. Maybe combine this template with an animated object of sorts.
For animate nonliving objects like the chymick swarm, I think the vast majority of 'it follows me and helps with noncombat stuff' could be replicated by simple animated objects. Add a couple new options to the construction points, like:1CP: Object grants creator a +4 circumstance bonus to one Craft skill, chosen at creation and replacing the bonuses from masterwork equipment.
1CP: Object floats a few inches above the ground rather than lurching on it. It ignores difficult terrain and can levitate as per the spell at it's creator's command.
1CP: Object has an intelligence of 1 and can repeat a few generic phrases such as "Welcome to my master's abode" and "Would you care for a healing potion?".
etc.Base pricing for homonculi can probably directly translated to most other creatures, homonculus template creatures and animated objects included. It could make for cheap big monsters, but then, look at the bargain necromancers get on their skeletons.
Well for my purposes, I have no intentions on making anything large, so I know I wouldn't abuse this. My intentions were to make small things. I think Im gonna present the Craft Alchemical Construct to my DM, with a limit on chymick swarm, homunculi, and animated objects of large size or smaller, perhaps with the homunculi template if you whip one up.
Still open to new ideas, but thanks for everyone's input so far.
Isn't an "alchemical construct" a homunculus...?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homunculus
A homunculus is a type of alchemical construct but not the only 1.
My point was crafting of homunculi already exists in PF.
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My point was crafting of homunculi already exists in PF.Isn't an "alchemical construct" a homunculus...?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homunculus
A homunculus is a type of alchemical construct but not the only 1.
But its not available to an Alchemist, because of the spells involved to make them, when homunculi as a concept have been related to alchemy. Hence the "alchemical construct" ideas, to allow an alchemist to make things generally associated with alchemy.
This may not actually be your cup of tea, but I think I have a use for these things in my current game, so I made the adjustments anyway :)
Creating a Homonculus
Homonculus is a template that can be added to any corporeal animal, dragon, fey, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, or outsider.
Challenge Rating
Depends on hit dice, as follows:
HD : CR
1/2 : 1/6
1 : 1/3
2–3 : 1
4–5 : 2
6–7 : 3
8–9 : 4
10–11 : 5
12–14 : 6
15–17 : 7
18–20 : 8
Alignment: Usually neutral, although some creators choose to artificially grant a homonculus a different alignment.
Type: The creature's type changes to construct. It retains any subtype except for alignment subtypes (such as good) and subtypes that indicate kind (such as giant). It does not gain the augmented subtype. It uses all the base creature's statistics and special abilities except as noted here.
Armor Class: The homonculus loses any natural armor bonus the base creature had, and replaces it with a bonus based on its size as follows:
Tiny or smaller : +0
Small : +1
Medium or Large : +2
Huge : +3
Gargantuan : +6
Colossal : +10
Hit Dice: A homonculus drops any HD gained from class levels and changes racial HD to d10s. Creatures without racial HD are treated as if they have 1 racial HD. A homonculus gains bonus hit points based on its size as follows:
Tiny or smaller : +0
Small : +10
Medium : +20
Large : +30
Huge : +40
Gargantuan : +60
Colossal : +80
Saves: Base save bonuses are Fort +1/3 HD, Ref +1/3 HD, and Will +1/3 HD.
Defensive Abilities: A homonculus loses the base creature's defensive abilities and gains DR 5/slashing. It also gains all of the standard immunities and traits possessed by construct creatures.
Speed: A winged homonculus can fly, but reduces it's maneuverability by one step. If the base creature flew magically, the homonculus cannot.
Attacks: A homonculus retains all the natural weapons, manufactured weapon attacks, and weapon proficiencies of the base creature.
Special Attacks: A homonculus retains none of the base creature's special attacks.
Abilities: Str -2, Dex -2. A homonculus has no Constitution or Intelligence score, and its Wisdom and Charisma scores change to 10.
BAB: A homonculus' base attack bonus is equal to its Hit Dice.
Skills: A homonculus loses all skill ranks possessed by the base creature and gains none of its own.
Feats: A homonculus loses all feats possessed by the base creature and gains none of its own.
Special Qualities: A homonculus loses most special qualities of the base creature. It retains any extraordinary special qualities that improve its melee or ranged attacks.
Environment: Any, usually the same as base creature.
Organization: Any.
Treasure: Generally none, although sometimes a homonculus' creator arms it with magical armor or weapons.
To create a homonculus, you must first acquire an appropriate quantity of inanimate flesh in relatively good condition (typically a body of the type of creature you want to construct), plus alchemical reagents costing 500 gp per hit die of the creature. Alternatively, you can craft a homonculus using a mixture of appropriately sculpted clay and blood from it's eventual controller, but this costs 1000 gp per hit die. You may not create a homonculus with more hit dice than you have alchemist or caster levels.
Cost: 1000 gp per hit die (flesh) or 2000 gp per hit die (clay)
CL: HD or 5, whichever is greater.
Requirements: Craft Alchemical Construct, death ward, false life, transformation; Skill Craft (alchemy) DC 10 + 1/HD; Cost 500 gp per hit die or 1000 gp per hit die
You can probably come up with alternative homonculi types using the bloody and burning templates as examples, too.
Kabump wrote:
But its not available to an Alchemist, because of the spells involved to make them, when homunculi as a concept have been related to alchemy. Hence the "alchemical construct" ideas, to allow an alchemist to make things generally associated with alchemy.
Zotpox wrote:
This is untrue as all of the required spells are 3rd level or below and can be easily mede into potions, and so the crafting A homunculus is avalable to an alchemest.
However obtaining a homunculi is avalable to aneyone with the cash and a pint of blood as they need have no hand in the crafting process.
the real show stopper in crafting is the requirement of the craft construct feat (which you canot obtain until 7th level feat slot becoms avalible as the feat Craft Magic Arms and Armor eats your 5th level slot and a is requirment for craft construct)
Alchemical Constructs might well be an interesting alternative to undead. Imagine a body reanimated by alchemical magic but not drawing on the negative energy of undeath.
Imagine perhaps the Owlbear.
An essence of Owl and a Bear's essence distilled from the two spirits by alchemical magic. Perhaps they were quickened and dedicated beneath a potent astrological conjunction. The owlbear is more than just a flesh golem with sewn together parts, it is the joining of two essences into a new creature. This mixing is the height of alchemy.
What the game needs is a lore of difficult miracles attainable by alchemy that culminate in the creation of life.
The principle should be:
1. Alchemical creatures must have a recognizable whole spirit component. The care and growth of that spirit, as an animating agent, is the height of alchemy.
2. The spirit must be gathered, nurtured, summoned, or otherwise created in a manner that does not require the undead. A magical anchor to hold the breath of spring, or rebellion.
Necromancy is the pry bar against death's door. Alchemy is the distillation of life's rarest elements.
Sigurd
Ooh, very spiritual. I like it.
Dunno whether I'd actually make rules up to represent the building of wacky spiritual chimeras, but it sounds like a fun credo for a cult or arcane academy.
Isn't one of the laws of alchemy equivalent exchange? You'd have to give a life for a life (in my understanding which may have been warped slightly from fullmetal alchemist but I still know the difference between that alchemy and the real thing and D&D/Pathfinder alchemy). I suppose spirits could work but I don't think I'd allow a good character to do it, even if they were chaotic.
Some Alchemy holds that spirits inhabit metals and materials. Gold is the ennoblement of lead, in some cases, this is a spiritual transformation reflected by a physical change. There is a spirit in the substance.
Similarly clay becomes human becomes angel - this is also an ennoblement. It is not evil to quicken the base elements into a living construct. It isn't evil. It might be evil to to imprison or subjugate the spirit to the alchemists will or that might just be recompense for creation.
Historically alchemy saw the homunculus as the alchemist following god and making life in his image. Arrogant yes, but again not necessarily evil.
Sigurd
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From an old series of posts I made about different alchemical creations;
Probably the most interesting Sunrod-related development of the last century has been the creation of the 'Sunrod Golem,' a tiny homonculous like creature made of flexible leather-tough tubes of animal intestine, filled with glowing Sunrod solution. The tiny servitor is hardly stronger than a housecat, and about as loyal as a well-trained dog, glowing like a walking torch for it's master's convenience, and, in a pinch, being able to squirt it's fluids out in a stream that affects a single target within a few paces similar to the naturalist spell known as 'Faerie's Fire,' marking that target with a pale light that makes them easy to pick out (and target with other effects). Any slashing or piercing damage to such a creature (which is surprisingly resilient, for it's size) also tends to 'paint' it's attacker with these fluids. Any attempt to make significant use of them in a combat situation is likely only to result in the destruction of a valuable bit of craftsmanship, but the creatures can be repaired, by being 'fed' Sunrods and stitched back together with craft skills (or magical mending cantrips).
An Alchemist's Fire 'golem' would probably be do-able as well, being a tiny bellows-looking thing that squirted out fiery streams of liquid with a 10 ft. range.
We won't speak of the Tanglefoot Golem. It was a terrible failure, since it proved unable to move, although one could, in theory, create one in a place that one wishes guarded in that way...