Amulet of Mighty Fists and Combat Maneuver Bonus

[Ravingdork]

Does an amulet of mighty fists increase a creature's combat maneuver bonus? Say, for example, I put it on my wolf animal companion. Would my wolf get the enhancement bonus to its trip attempts?

What if a troll put it on and attempted a grapple?

[Majuba]

Interesting question!

Sunder: if you're using natural attacks, definitely.
Trip: if same as above (wolf bites to trip), yes.
Disarm: Only certain if some special disarming power.

Bull rush, Grapple, and Overrun: hmmm. Can't see any specific reasons why those would definitely work.

All that said.. I think yes, if a natural weapon or no weapon is being used, I think the Mighty Fists bonus would apply. It's certainly priced accordingly.

[Ravingdork]

Still looking for an answer to this.

[Dark Midian]

General rule of thumb is that if it can be substituted for an attack, you can add your enhancement bonus on it because you're using your weapon to attack (Trip, sunder, disarm.)

Certain abilities allow you to use weapons while bull rushing (Like the two-handed fighter's Piledriver ability) and probably for overrun as well.

[Imbicatus]

Based on this Blog it would apply to Disarm, Trip, and Sunder maneuvers. It would not apply to anything else.

Quote:

Disarm, sunder, and trip are normally the only kinds of combat maneuvers in which you’re actually using a weapon (natural weapons and unarmed strikes are considered weapons for this purpose) to perform the maneuver, and therefore the weapon’s bonuses (enhancement bonuses, feats such as Weapon Focus, fighter weapon training, and so on) apply to the roll.

[Stephen Ede]

Except if you succeed on a Grapple check to maintain the Grapple and do damage you do damage with no further rolls. That means whatever attack you use to do damage is been used in the grapple.

[James Risner]

AoMF wasn't it FAQ to not work with grapple?
Or was that weapon focus unarmed doesn't help grapple.

I feel one or the other we're FAQ, if not they were Dev posts.

[Stephen Ede]

The Dev Blog that was linked to didn't talk about Grapple at all.
It talked about Bull Rush, Trip and some others but not Grapple.

Now with the original Grapple you can argue that it doesn't involve a weapon, since no damage is done.
But in subsequent Grapple checks to do damage you have to come up with some pretty weird interpretations to say that the weapon been used to do damage isn't part of the Grapple and therefore any Mods to use the Weapon get counted.

[James Risner]

I'm not sure whether or not Stephen Ede is talking about gauntlets counting for weapon focus or weapons or not, but they don't.

[James Risner]

change gauntlet to grapple in my last message...

[Stephen Ede]

Well I was thinking about Amulet of Might Fists but specifically but the question legitimately applies to whatever attack you are using the Maintain Grapple Check to make.

If any bonuses you have to weapon attack you are using with "Maintain Grapple to make an attack" don't apply the question becomes "Why Not?".

[Scott Wilhelm]

James Risner wrote:

AoMF wasn't it FAQ to not work with grapple?

Or was that weapon focus unarmed doesn't help grapple.

I feel one or the other we're FAQ, if not they were Dev posts.

Yes, it was.

I was part of that debate. The wording of the Amulet of Mighty Fists was that it enhanced "natural and unarmed attacks," which was assumed to be many to mean only Unarmed Strikes. But it was pointed out that a Grapple is unarmed and is an attack, and therefore must logically be an "unarmed attack." It was then officially ruled that while a Grapple is unarmed, and is an attack, it is nontheless not an "unarmed attack."

Combat Maneuvers associated with a particular Unarmed Strike or Natural Attack still to enjoy the AmoMF still do. And Grappling is not normally associated with any specific attack.

Unless it is.

If you are an Alchemist using Grab with your Tentacle, you do still get to add your AoMF bonus to your Grapple Check because the Grapple is being done with the Tentacle, and the Tentacle gets the bonus. Just having the Tentacle might not be enough: a GM might well say that it only applies if you are Grabbing with the Tentacle, and not just using the Tentacle for the +4 CMB.

[James Risner]

You don't use a weapon to make Grapple attempts unless you do (Grab) and it isn't an unarmed attack, it is a Combat Maneuver.

[Reinhardt de'Bonaire]

Disarm sunder and trip only

[Scott Wilhelm]

James Risner wrote:

You don't use a weapon to make Grapple attempts unless you do (Grab) and it isn't an unarmed attack, it is a Combat Maneuver.

White Haired Witches would too, and technically, the White Hair Grapple ability is technically not a Grab. Also, there is Hamatula Strike, where you are definitely using a weapon to Grapple with.

Paizoblog FAQ wrote:

you’re actually using a weapon (natural weapons and unarmed strikes are considered weapons for this purpose) to perform the maneuver, and therefore the weapon’s bonuses (enhancement bonuses, feats such as Weapon Focus, fighter weapon training, and so on) apply to the roll.

So, when you are using a weapon--in this case a Tentacle or Witch's White Hair, or an Unarmed Strike if you have the Snake Style Feat--to perform a Combat Maneuver, you get enhancement bonuses from the Amulet of Mighty Fists.

Normally, the only the Disarm, Sunder, and Trip Combat Maneuvers are ones that use weapons, so normally they are the only ones that would get a bonus from a source like the Amulet of Mighty Fists.

Paizoblog FAQ wrote:

Disarm, sunder, and trip are normally the only kinds of combat maneuvers in which you’re actually using a weapon (natural weapons and unarmed strikes are considered weapons for this purpose) to perform the maneuver, and therefore the weapon’s bonuses (enhancement bonuses, feats such as Weapon Focus, fighter weapon training, and so on) apply to the roll.

But with such things as the Grab Ability, you are clearly using a Natural Attack to make the Grapple, so when you are using the Grab Ability to Grapple, your Amulet of Mighty Fists helps.

Paizoblog FAQ on Combat Maneuvers

[Gisher]

James Risner wrote:

You don't use a weapon to make Grapple attempts unless you do (Grab) and it isn't an unarmed attack, it is a Combat Maneuver.

I think you do use a weapon to grapple when using a Mancatcher or using a Whip with Greater Whip Mastery.

[graystone]

Gisher wrote:

James Risner wrote:

You don't use a weapon to make Grapple attempts unless you do (Grab) and it isn't an unarmed attack, it is a Combat Maneuver.

I think you do use a weapon to grapple when using a Mancatcher or using a Whip with Greater Whip Mastery.

You've got the Dan bong too that can "enhance unarmed martial techniques" to grant "a +2 bonus on combat maneuver checks to grapple". Or a bow with a barbed arrow, a crook, a garrote, a grappling hook, a harpoon, a crank crossbow, a kumade, a kusarigama, a kyoketsu shoge or a sibat. Also a net with the net trick or a shield with shield tricks. Or a Blade of Binding, Elephant Shield, Heartspit or Pirate's Arm. Or an Autograpnel. Hamatula Strike with any piercing weapon...

Just a few examples. ;)

[Stephen Ede]

These are all examples of making a Grapple Combat Maneuver to start a Grapple.

That is different from making a Grapple Check to maintain a Grapple for the purpose of doing damage.

[James Risner]

Thanks for expanding on my “unless you do (Grab, Hamatula Strike, Dan bong, etc)”.

[Ravingdork]

So if I have a bite attack with grab, and an amulet of mighty fists +5, then does my grapple check get a +5 bonus?

[James Risner]

Ravingdork wrote:

So if I have a bite attack with grab, and an amulet of mighty fists +5, then does my grapple check get a +5 bonus?

In my understanding, yes.

But your follow up to pin I’d say no, as you didn’t use the bite to pin.

In summary there isn’t likely a formula to it. It likely requires GM adjudication for each corner case.

[Imbicatus]

By RAW, no. But your GM can say that grab makes grapple weapon based and allow it. But disarm, sunder, and trip are the only explicitly allowed maneuvers, or dirty trick when used by a 13th level ustalavic duelist. Anything else requires a GM call.

[Scott Wilhelm]

James Risner wrote:

Thanks for expanding on my “unless you do (Grab, Hamatula Strike, Dan bong, etc)”.

My pleasure.

[Gisher]

James Risner wrote:

You don't use a weapon to make Grapple attempts unless you do (Grab) and it isn't an unarmed attack, it is a Combat Maneuver.

James Risner wrote:

Thanks for expanding on my “unless you do (Grab, Hamatula Strike, Dan bong, etc)”.

You seem to have misquoted yourself.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Gisher wrote:

James Risner wrote:

You don't use a weapon to make Grapple attempts unless you do (Grab) and it isn't an unarmed attack, it is a Combat Maneuver.

James Risner wrote:

Thanks for expanding on my “unless you do (Grab, Hamatula Strike, Dan bong, etc)”.

You seem to have misquoted yourself.

I don't think he meant anything dishonest by it. I don't think he's saying he said things he didn't say.

We were expanding on what he said, including more examples of "unless you do." Then he said thank you.

I don't want to speak for James, but I think he was legit thanking us. It's hard to recognize someone being polite on the Internet, rare as it is.

[James Risner]

Gisher wrote:

James Risner wrote:

You don't use a weapon to make Grapple attempts unless you do (Grab) and it isn't an unarmed attack, it is a Combat Maneuver.

James Risner wrote:

Thanks for expanding on my “unless you do (Grab, Hamatula Strike, Dan bong, etc)”.

You seem to have misquoted yourself.

Care to explain how I misquoted myself?

You don't use a weapon in a grapple, period.
Unless you are using a very small subset of behaviors that are in fact using a weapon with a grapple. Such as Dan Bong, Grab, etc.

Grapple is never an unarmed attack, period.
Even when using a feat to make your unarmed strikes piercing and using hamatula strike to grapple, it's still not an unarmed attack.

[Stephen Ede]

"You don't use a weapon in a grapple, period.
Unless you are using a very small subset of behaviors that are in fact using a weapon with a grapple. Such as Dan Bong, Grab, etc."

When you maintain a Grapple to do damage you use a Weapon (including Natural Attacks as Weapons). If you don't you can't do any damage.

[Gisher]

James Risner wrote:

Gisher wrote:

James Risner wrote:

You don't use a weapon to make Grapple attempts unless you do (Grab) and it isn't an unarmed attack, it is a Combat Maneuver.

James Risner wrote:

Thanks for expanding on my “unless you do (Grab, Hamatula Strike, Dan bong, etc)”.

You seem to have misquoted yourself.

Care to explain how I misquoted myself?

Sure. In your second post you wrote “unless you do (Grab, Hamatula Strike, Dan bong, etc)” but the part that I have bolded isn't in the earlier post. It just struck me as odd. You might have had that text in an earlier draft and accidentally erased it.

[graystone]

Stephen Ede wrote:

These are all examples of making a Grapple Combat Maneuver to start a Grapple.

That is different from making a Grapple Check to maintain a Grapple for the purpose of doing damage.

Really? I'm pretty sure you're using a garrote to both start a grapple and maintain/deal damage. Hamatula Strike is both. Heartspit does both...

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

I don't think he meant anything dishonest by it. I don't think he's saying he said things he didn't say.

What Gisher said was factually correct. When he quoted “unless you do (Grab, Hamatula Strike, Dan bong, etc)”, he had never said that before in this thread, hence it's NOT a direct quote. If he meant to expand on what he'd directly said he should have made it as this: "unless you do (Grab)[Hamatula Strike, Dan bong, etc]". This denotes that the '[Hamatula Strike, Dan bong, etc]' wasn't actually posted but implied.

[James Risner]

graystone wrote:

If he meant to expand on what he'd directly said he should have made it as this: "unless you do (Grab)[Hamatula Strike, Dan bong, etc]". This denotes that the '[Hamatula Strike, Dan bong, etc]' wasn't actually posted but implied.

original statement wrote:

You don't use a weapon to make Grapple attempts unless you do (Grab) and it isn't an unarmed attack, it is a Combat Maneuver.

I'm sorry that wasn't clear the "unless you do" wasn't exhaustive. It isn't. If you have an ability, it works. But the fact Grapple is a combat maneuver and not a weapon attack doesn't change.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Don't we live in interesting times?

[William Werminster]

This was clearly a post as written vs a post as intended case.

Thanks to "Ravindork the Helpful Necromancer" and everyone else for this precious info.

[Stephen Ede]

Well yes, but as has been noted in those cases you do get to apply weapon modifiers. So from that I can take that when doing a grapple check to do damage with a Weapon you get to use the Weapon Mods with your CMB. :-)

graystone wrote:

Stephen Ede wrote:

These are all examples of making a Grapple Combat Maneuver to start a Grapple.

That is different from making a Grapple Check to maintain a Grapple for the purpose of doing damage.

Really? I'm pretty sure you're using a garrote to both start a grapple and maintain/deal damage. Hamatula Strike is both. Heartspit does both...

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

I don't think he meant anything dishonest by it. I don't think he's saying he said things he didn't say.

What Gisher said was factually correct. When he quoted “unless you do (Grab, Hamatula Strike, Dan bong, etc)”, he had never said that before in this thread, hence it's NOT a direct quote. If he meant to expand on what he'd directly said he should have made it as this: "unless you do (Grab)[Hamatula Strike, Dan bong, etc]". This denotes that the '[Hamatula Strike, Dan bong, etc]' wasn't actually posted but implied.

[James Risner]

Stephen Ede wrote:

Well yes, but as has been noted in those cases you do get to apply weapon modifiers. So from that I can take that when doing a grapple check to do damage with a Weapon you get to use the Weapon Mods with your CMB. :-)

That is where I disagree, only the rules elements that mention grapple do so. In other words you don’t add unless you do (Dan Bong, Hamatula Strike, etc).