Cackle and Evil Eye Hex


Advanced Player's Guide Playtest: Final Playtest

Dark Archive

If a creature succeeds on its save versus Evil Eye, it is affected for one round. Can a witch using Cackle extend the Evil Eye for that creature?

The Exchange

I don't see why not. This is the way that I was planning on running a witch if I ever played one. The way I figure, as a full-round action you can make sure that the target will be affected by the curse for at least 2 rounds, no matter how high their saves are.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Rulebook Subscriber
Hunterofthedusk wrote:
I don't see why not. This is the way that I was planning on running a witch if I ever played one. The way I figure, as a full-round action you can make sure that the target will be affected by the curse for at least 2 rounds, no matter how high their saves are.

If the witch cackles in the second round, won't that make it last to a third round? So if every round the witch evil-eye cackles, no matter how many saves are succeeded at the witch can keep the hex on.

Dark Archive

Galnörag wrote:
Hunterofthedusk wrote:
I don't see why not. This is the way that I was planning on running a witch if I ever played one. The way I figure, as a full-round action you can make sure that the target will be affected by the curse for at least 2 rounds, no matter how high their saves are.
If the witch cackles in the second round, won't that make it last to a third round? So if every round the witch evil-eye cackles, no matter how many saves are succeeded at the witch can keep the hex on.

Yup. I believe that is right via RAW. Also, since Cackle is a move action, the witch can essentially have all targets in the area constantly under the effects of evil eye and any other curses she wants to subject them to. it would take 1 round/target/curse, but that's normal.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Since she's using up actions to keep her Hex effects active I don't see a problem with this. She's using her own turns to keep enemies debuffed or out of commission.

The Exchange

On a related note- Can someone have more than one Evil Eye effect on them at a time? I'm not talking about stacking the penalties to the same thing, but can you take multiple rounds to penalize AC, attack rolls, and saves (for instance)?

Oh, and I found a typo in the Tongues hex, not sure if it's just my PDF-

I added in the italicized words, and the bold sentence concerns me.

Tongues (Su): A witch with this hex can understand any
spoken language for a [number of] minutes per day equal to her level,
as comprehend languages. This duration does not need to
be consecutive, but it must be spent in Activating this
ability is a free action.
At 5th level, a witch can use this
ability to speak any language, as per tongues.


Hunterofthedusk:

My answer would be yes. You can only not stack when:

1. It affects the same number (i.e. attack rolls)
2. From the same source.
3. Or the same type of penalty.

Since you don't hit number 1 number 2 and 3 don't apply. You are targeting a different number (AC or Saves) and therefore nothing is stacking.

Consider also that most debuffing spells that actually offer penalties hit everything (i.e. saves, attack rolls, and skill checks) with one casting. Evil Eye takes a standard action each round to hit one part of the total package and still allows the same save throws.

As to Cackling and Evil Eyeing each round -- Sure you can do it. However you'll only be taking a 5' step each round which means someone is probably going to hit you soon.

As to your bolded sentence:

That's standard fare for special abilities, and what makes it actually useful. You can use it for a minute here then two minutes there... flight has the same ability.

This is why it's worth more than the spell slot -- you only need to use it when you need it.

Consider this ability compared to actually casting the tongues spell. Once cast the tongues spell will run its full course and that's it. Spell over you are done, no more use. The abilities are more useful in that you can split them up into useful times allowing your spell slots to be used for other effects instead of multiple memorization of the same spell.

Shadow Lodge

Abraham spalding wrote:

Hunterofthedusk:

As to your bolded sentence:

That's standard fare for special abilities, and what makes it actually useful. You can use it for a minute here then two minutes there... flight has the same ability.

That's not exactly the issue. Where do you see "minutes" in what was quoted?

Pretty sure that's what it's SUPPOSED to be, but I'm not sure how to spend duration in Activating this ability is a free action.


Oh I see what you're asking now... it's missing the following line:

"These minutes do not need to be consecutive, but they must be spent in 1-minute increments."

Does that help? That's from the flight ability actually (I'm adding it in myself to tongues) but is the standard byline for all such abilities from the cleric, wizard, and sorcerer.

The Exchange

I actually wasn't asking anything for that second part, I was just pointing out a typo.

Lantern Lodge

So this is how a Witch with Evil Eye and Cackle could do her thing:

Round 1:
Standard - Evil Eye (Saving Throws)
Move - Cackle

Round 2:
Standard - Evil Eye (Attacks)
Move - Cackle

Round 3:
Standard - Evil Eye (AC)
Move - Cackle

Round 4:
Standard - Evil Eye (Skill Checks)
Move - Cackle

Round 5:
Standard - Evil Eye (Ability Checks)
Move - Cackle

Round 6+:
Move - Cackle

From the beginning the target starts to take the -2 (-4 if 8th or higher) to Saving Throws for a minimum of 1 round which is extended to 2 rounds because of Cackle. (Note that if they pass the saving throw the target has the penalty till the Witch's next turn since that is one full round)

From here on out each of the stats are decreased and continue to remain decreased until they either move out of 30 ft. for long enough for the duration of each to expire or kill the Witch. (which is what having a fighter or other tank in front of you is for)

Then once all of the stats are decreased the Witch only needs to maintain it with a move action each round.

Overall this is a really nice use of the abilities but the penalties are not that big (compared to some spells) and they would take a while for them to get going (if you wanted to penalize everything instead of just a single stat or two) per opponent.


Hmmm... I'm not sure weather the cackle would effect 'one' evil eye hex or 'multiple.' You've got 5 hexes going on there by the end. I don't see a clear ruling either way. It'd be up to the judge, I guess, without further clarification.

Personally I'd rule Cackle would effect 1 hex, thus one Evil Eye in this case, only because when listing the curses it says "...Misfortune Hex OR Ward Hex..."

The 'or' is key here and implies exclusive to one hex. If it said 'and' or 'and/or' I would agree it could effect more than one hex.

...under haste you'd be the bane of this guy's existance, LOL.

This brings up an interesting point.

I was playing PFS and the judge told me I could only have 1 Evil Eye going at a time. Is there any official ruling anyone has seen on this? Or can I have multiple Evil Eyes going on multiple targets? I can't find anything in the rules on it.


I think you guys are missing the true usefulness of this ability:

Cackle (Su): A witch can cackle madly as a move action.
Any creature that is within 30 feet that is under the
effects of an agony hex, charm hex, evil eye hex, fortune
hex, misfortune hex, or ward hex caused by the witch has
the duration of that hex extended by 1 round
.

So each round she could hex a different target, and cackle to maintain an ongoing hex, and as long as all targets remain within 30 feet, keep hitting them all each round. Very nice ploy when you have allies running interference between the witch and her opponents.

Oh, and just to note, I personally feel the witch's cackle should be a free action usable on her turn (or a swift action), not a move action. I mean really, how much effort does it take to laugh at someone? Yeah, you could say it takes at least minimal effort to exert magical influence, but then the bard can maintain a performance ability as a free action each round and still fight/move/use an item. Yes, it takes a standard action for the bard to initiate an ability, but technically the same is true for the witch since her cackle only extends the hex; she still has to cast (throw?) the hex in the first place.


...I think it is intended to effect 1 creature within 30'. Otherwise it'd say:

All creature(s) that are within 30 feet that are under the
effects of an agony hex, charm hex, evil eye hex, fortune
hex, misfortune hex, or ward hex caused by the witch has
the duration of that hex extended by 1 round.

Shadow Lodge

Piety Godfury wrote:


Personally I'd rule Cackle would effect 1 hex, thus one Evil Eye in this case, only because when listing the curses it says "...Misfortune Hex OR Ward Hex..."

The 'or' is key here and implies exclusive to one hex. If it said 'and' or 'and/or' I would agree it could effect more than one hex.

Sometimes I forget that people who are mainly familiar with its typical use in normal conversation (but who are neither mathematicians, logicians, or programmers by training) are likely to assume that the word "or" is used in its exclusive sense...

And yes, I have confused some people in the past by trying to use "xor" in a conversation. And gotten strange looks for trying to be a little more user-friendly and saying "but not both" when most people would have assumed such even if I hadn't said it.

So if you would rule that only one duration currently active on a given creature would be extended, would you roll to choose it randomly for each cackle? In the absence of phrasing that lets the witch choose which one is extended I would think that was the only reasonable way to affect only one. Granted, I think it should affect all active qualifying hexes, but I recognize that opinion as being influenced by my background in fields where "and/or" is completely redundant.


Meh, evolution of the language. I always default to the "proper english" meaning. One would assume that an author with a varied audience base would strive to make his writing as literal as possible to be clear. Though this is not always the case.

I would rule they can choose which 'hex' to extend. As this hex mentions nothing of maintenance. If it did, they'd have to stop it on one effect and start it on another if they wanted to change it.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Rulebook Subscriber

Hmm it is a bit ambiguous, but I understood it to mean that all active hexes on all creatures within 30' are extended. As it only applies to the witch's own hexes, she has to be within 30' of her foe, and if she hex-cackles every round she is stationary. Seems reasonable to me... Especially against a foe like a dragon who might have reach it isn't that powerful.


You can always make a standard action a move action.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Rulebook Subscriber
Piety Godfury wrote:
You can always make a standard action a move action.

?


You use a "Move Action" to Cackle. That means you can Cackle every round and you still have a standard you can do something with. If the target moves 30' away you can change your standard action into a move action and move closer to him. If you need to get away, you can use it to tumble away or cast a spell if it has reach etc.

If you want to Cackle + move + do a standard you may be asking a bit much from a combo you get by second level.

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

Piety Godfury wrote:
You can always make a standard action a move action.

I think he was saying if you hex and cackle every round, you're stuck standing in one place, that's what he meant by hex-cackle. You are right of course, a Witch could move and cackle each round, but she'd still be stuck within 30 ft. of her enemy, and forced to rely on the rest of the part to actually put her hex to good use.

My take is that cackle effects all your active hexes within 30 ft. The cackle power doesn't mention selecting a single hex or a single target, and insane laughter seems like the kind of effect that should affect everyone around you (I mean, unless you point at one guy and say "I'm Laughing At You! HA!")


"Any creature..."

Means any creature (affected by a hex this ability affects *see list below) within 30 feet of you has the duration of that hex extended by 1 round.

It does not say, "Any creature that you choose."

OR

"Any creature until one is affected"

Or any other variation -- It say any creature within 30 feet that is affected by (list of hexes) has the duration of that hex extended by 1 round.

So we have 2 things to check to see if any creatures near the witch are affected:

1. Are they in 30 feet?
2. Are they affected by one of the Hexes listed?

If so then:
Duration of Hex + 1 round.

The cackle never checks to see if only one target is affected... it affects any targets that within range that meets the conditions stated.


Okay lets think about this logically folks. If Cackle & Evil Eye does what you all are suggesting than they kick every Bards butt. Look, a 20th level bard and a 2nd level Witch walk into a 30'X 30' packed bar. If anyone leaves the bar, for whatever reason, both lose their abilities so there is no real issue here.

A bards song effects everyone right off and can continue playing for somewhere in the neighborhood of 50 rounds, so around 9 1/2 minutes then drops. He only gets 1 effect at any given time and all the group effects require there to be no combat to start. The other effects get 1 creature TOTAL . Any creature immune to mind effecting are immune to most bard song effects.

Versus the second level Witch who (might take about 10 minutes to set up) but can keep the entire room -2 AC, Ability Checks, Attack Rolls, Savings Throws and skill rolls potentially indefinitely? It doesn't matter what they are undead, constructs, swarms etc?

Bard Songs give saves and Cackle, if done properly, ganks saves?

Again, 2nd level Witch 20th level Bard!

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

Piety Godfury wrote:

Okay lets think about this logically folks. If Cackle & Evil Eye does what you all are suggesting than they kick every Bards butt. Look, a 20th level bard and a 2nd level Witch walk into a 30'X 30' packed bar. If anyone leaves the bar, for whatever reason, both lose their abilities so there is no real issue here.

A bards song effects everyone right off and can continue playing for somewhere in the neighborhood of 50 rounds, so around 9 1/2 minutes then drops. He only gets 1 effect at any given time and all the group effects require there to be no combat to start. The other effects get 1 creature TOTAL . Any creature immune to mind effecting are immune to most bard song effects.

Versus the second level Witch who (might take about 10 minutes to set up) but can keep the entire room -2 AC, Ability Checks, Attack Rolls, Savings Throws and skill rolls potentially indefinitely? It doesn't matter what they are undead, constructs, swarms etc?

Bard Songs give saves and Cackle, if done properly, ganks saves?

Again, 2nd level Witch 20th level Bard!

You just sort of gloss over that whole "takes 10 minutes to set up" thing though. The witch can keep her debuffs going long than a bard's music, sure, but she's spending all her actions every round to do so.

Meanwhile the bard kicks on Inspire Competence and continues to cast spells, maneuver, and attack to his hearts content, all while affecting everyone within range (with more than one effect even!).


Also the Bard Affects EVERYONE on EVERYTHING right off the bat... if he goes for his dirge for example everyone takes the full -2 on EVERYTHING right away...

The witch gets to hit one stat at a time and gives a save throw.

The bards bonus is also keeps up in size as well too.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Rulebook Subscriber
Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:
Piety Godfury wrote:

Okay lets think about this logically folks. If Cackle & Evil Eye does what you all are suggesting than they kick every Bards butt. Look, a 20th level bard and a 2nd level Witch walk into a 30'X 30' packed bar. If anyone leaves the bar, for whatever reason, both lose their abilities so there is no real issue here.

A bards song effects everyone right off and can continue playing for somewhere in the neighborhood of 50 rounds, so around 9 1/2 minutes then drops. He only gets 1 effect at any given time and all the group effects require there to be no combat to start. The other effects get 1 creature TOTAL . Any creature immune to mind effecting are immune to most bard song effects.

Versus the second level Witch who (might take about 10 minutes to set up) but can keep the entire room -2 AC, Ability Checks, Attack Rolls, Savings Throws and skill rolls potentially indefinitely? It doesn't matter what they are undead, constructs, swarms etc?

Bard Songs give saves and Cackle, if done properly, ganks saves?

Again, 2nd level Witch 20th level Bard!

You just sort of gloss over that whole "takes 10 minutes to set up" thing though. The witch can keep her debuffs going long than a bard's music, sure, but she's spending all her actions every round to do so.

Meanwhile the bard kicks on Inspire Competence and continues to cast spells, maneuver, and attack to his hearts content, all while affecting everyone within range (with more than one effect even!).

I think the 10 minutes is the key, it is obviously a aggressive action to go and give someone the evil eye, so if the witch just sits at the bar starting and laughing she is going to get the ire and the swords of everyone in the room.

In a normal combat situation, it has at least been my experience, that combat rarely lasts more then 10 rounds, and that makes the witches power more limited/reasonable.

Lantern Lodge

Cackle (Su): A witch can cackle madly as a move action.
Any creature that is within 30 feet that is under the
effects of an agony hex, charm hex, evil eye hex, fortune
hex, misfortune hex, or ward hex caused by the witch has
the duration of that hex extended by 1 round
.

If this was meant to affect only one creature or only one hex it would say so, instead of any it would say any one or a single creature, and it would say withing 30 ft. that is under the effects of any one of the following.

This is very clear on what it does and how it works.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Cackle (Su): A witch can cackle madly as a move action.
Any creature that is within 30 feet that is under the
effects of an agony hex, charm hex, evil eye hex, fortune
hex, misfortune hex, or ward hex caused by the witch has
the duration of that hex extended by 1 round.

My interpretation of the 'an' and 'that hex' leads me to think it only affects one hex. However, it affects one hex on every creature within 30ft that has a hex on them.


slicertool wrote:

Cackle (Su): A witch can cackle madly as a move action.

Any creature that is within 30 feet that is under the
effects of an agony hex, charm hex, evil eye hex, fortune
hex, misfortune hex, or ward hex caused by the witch has
the duration of that hex extended by 1 round.

My interpretation of the 'an' and 'that hex' leads me to think it only affects one hex. However, it affects one hex on every creature within 30ft that has a hex on them.

Quote:

Cackle (Su): A witch can cackle madly as a move action.

Any creature that is within 30 feet that is under the
effects of agony hexes, charm hexes, evil eye hexes, fortune
hexes, misfortune hexes, or ward hexes caused by the witch has
the duration of those hexes extended by 1 round.

I've rewritten it to be consistent with the situation you've suggested. Since the hexes do not stack with themselves, this new text does not seem to say what you want it to say.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Caedwyr wrote:
Quote:

Cackle (Su): A witch can cackle madly as a move action.

Any creature that is within 30 feet that is under the
effects of agony hexes, charm hexes, evil eye hexes, fortune
hexes, misfortune hexes, or ward hexes caused by the witch has
the duration of those hexes extended by 1 round.
I've rewritten it to be consistent with the situation you've suggested. Since the hexes do not stack with themselves, this new text does not seem to say what you want it to say.

Where does it say that hexes do not stack with themselves? I'm not doubting you, but I didn't see text stating such. This also causes all hexes on each creature to be affected instead of just one per creature.

Lantern Lodge

It is a well known fact that bonuses and penalties of the same type do not stack. The Evil Eye hex from RAW can not target AC twice to double the penalty but if the duration is long enough it should be able to target AC once and Attacks once, and unless stated otherwise it should be fine to do this. Normal circumstances say that if they only wanted a target to only be effected once they would have stated: A target may only have a single Evil Eye active at any one time, or No more than one Evil Eye hex can affect a single target at any one time, and Any new Evil Eye hex supersedes any old ones and the new penalty and duration take precedence.


slicertool wrote:
Caedwyr wrote:
Quote:

Cackle (Su): A witch can cackle madly as a move action.

Any creature that is within 30 feet that is under the
effects of agony hexes, charm hexes, evil eye hexes, fortune
hexes, misfortune hexes, or ward hexes caused by the witch has
the duration of those hexes extended by 1 round.
I've rewritten it to be consistent with the situation you've suggested. Since the hexes do not stack with themselves, this new text does not seem to say what you want it to say.
Where does it say that hexes do not stack with themselves? I'm not doubting you, but I didn't see text stating such. This also causes all hexes on each creature to be affected instead of just one per creature.

Bonuses/penalties from the same source to the same thing do not stack unless otherwise stated.

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