Does anyone know if the two-handed weapon feats from the beta will be featured or changed in future Pathfinder supplements?
Those are good feats. Perhaps left out because they are...too good?
Could they perhaps have been revised then so that they were on equal (but not superior) footing with 1-handed feats?
Could they perhaps have been revised then so that they were on equal (but not superior) footing with 1-handed feats?
Are you saying that my rune giants with the Devastating Blow in motion while they're using a scythe...that is overpowered!?!?!!!!
I hope they do come back. They were indeed OP, but now 2-handed weapons are not a good choice at all.
I hope they do come back. They were indeed OP, but now 2-handed weapons are not a good choice at all.Two-handed weapons are still the best choice.
- You don't have to have a high dex, so you can put more of your points into str
- You don't need a bunch of feats, just power attack, and anything past that is gravy. The two-weapon builds burn out tonnes of feats just to keep in the ball park of you on full attacks
- The big damage of your single weapon makes your turns when you can only make a single attack less of a downer than the two-weapon fighting or single weapon fighting builds
- Again the big damage of your attacks makes damage reduction less effective against you than the two-weapon or single weapon buildsThe ranking as far as I have seen from the dpr calculations is:
1. Two-handed (few feats needed, str)
2. Two-weapon (lots of feats needed, dex, str)
3. Two-weapon using shields (even more feats needed, dex, str)
4. Single weapon (few feats needed, str)
Well mate, sorry to say but your math is completelly wrong. It has been discussed quite a lot what the best build for melee types are and Two-Handed weapon is not the the best choice at all.
Actually, not even melee types, fighting types should not use this build at all if they want to be top damaging, that is.
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TWF is best, but only if you are prepared to dump loads of feats into it, which isn't always viable unless your talking about a 15+ level character. Rogues do well, Rangers get some help with the bonus feats, and Fighters benefit a great deal from mixing in shield feats for extra fun times.
But in all cases, there's a risk of becoming a one trick pony. I don't care how effective it is, it's going to get boring if you are doing the exact same thing every single round.
THF is best in all other melee combat cases. It does almost as much damage as a TWF for a far lower feat investment, which lets characters nab things like Improved Trip, Iron Will, or Dazzling Display.
What needs help is a single weapon style, one that works with either a rapier duelist or a sword-and-board who's not shield bashing.
TWF is best, but only if you are prepared to dump loads of feats into it, which isn't always viable unless your talking about a 15+ level character. Rogues do well, Rangers get some help with the bonus feats, and Fighters benefit a great deal from mixing in shield feats for extra fun times.
But in all cases, there's a risk of becoming a one trick pony. I don't care how effective it is, it's going to get boring if you are doing the exact same thing every single round.THF is best in all other melee combat cases. It does almost as much damage as a TWF for a far lower feat investment, which lets characters nab things like Improved Trip, Iron Will, or Dazzling Display.
What needs help is a single weapon style, one that works with either a rapier duelist or a sword-and-board who's not shield bashing.
Ok. If you wanna deal damage don't go Two handed... that's a little off, don't you think?
Also keep in mind that DPR calculations are generally made with the assumption that fighters can easily pop full attacks against CR appropriate foes. In short TWF tends to dominate high level slugfests.
However against highly mobile foes that don't leave themselves open to full attack runs the charging THF with power attack and vital strike chain can be remarkably effective. For some creatures (particularly ones with reach, with strong single shot ranged attacks, or the ability to reset range with transport magics) moving back more than 5' can mean increasing their survival chances even if it exposes them to a AoO from the fighter.
Further if your playstyle includes encounters with lots of lower CR minion creatures supporting the BBEG then the THF with power attack and great cleave can be remarkably good at minion slaying. Granted he probably still lags behind the casters with AoO damage spells in terms of pure minion slaying capacity but he can free up the casters from having to focus as many spell slots on AoO.
Other people have also noted that the feat intensive nature of the TWF is more potent at mid to high level and that the THF can shore up other areas of weakness with his surplus feats. Save boosters like Iron Will are always useful for fighters and a generalist fighter with a Two-hander can also devote some slots towards archery or skill boosters without taking a massive hit to his melee combat profile.
In short the ginsu-matic TWF is incredibly nasty but his advantages can be negated to a degree by the tactics of the opposition. He's also likely to be more vulnerable to will-save effects and more one-dimensional in out of combat situations.
If I want to do lots of damage I am going to go two-handed. Why not? I also might go two-weapon style or I might use weapon+shield. Just because from an optimization view point two-handed isn't the best, it's still a great way to deal loads of damage easily. Oh, and I so like to use the feats for other nifty things...
Well, not really the best answer.
I would go two-handed, sure. For style, but that's about it.
Yeah, I know the posibilities, I just hope they bring back something balanced for this. Mostly because it's the ONLY combat style that doesn't get anything, and the one weapon fighter should get something too.
It's only fair.
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Yeah, I know the posibilities, I just hope they bring back something balanced for this. Mostly because it's the ONLY combat style that doesn't get anything, and the one weapon fighter should get something too.
It's only fair.
I'm wih Xum on this. I think the Overhand Chop and Backswing feats were great ideas - if a bit on the powerful side. Re-tooled, I think they would be exactly what this type of fighter could really use - and a feat like the 3.5 Complete Fighter feat "Improved Buckler Defense" to allow a THF type to wield a buckler.
Robert
I don't think 2WF outdoes 2-Handed, barring Rangers who ignore the DEX requirements to buff STR
(who only excel vs. fighters when facing their most favored enemies)
Sure, with Energy enchants it will excel (WITH it's insane Feat investment), but against DR it's worse.
I knocked up some 10th level builds in the DPR thread, and the 2-Hander out-did the 2WF (BARELY).
(I believe both of those builds were #1 and #2 for 'normal non-magical melee types')
But the 2WF build had to spend EVERY SINGLE FEAT on 'basics' to pull off their style (Exotic Double Weapon to keep Standard Attacks/AoO's up to par, 2WF Feats, Weapon Focus/Spec) without even room for COMBAT REFLEXES (when an additional attack is about +50% DPR for the 2 Hander).
The 2 Hander had 3 or 4 Feats to spare for Combat Reflexes, Lunge (5' Step + Full Attack instead of 10' Move and Standard Attack), etc, etc. Just 1 AoO by the 2-Hander will give them Full Attack-class damage output on rounds when they are limited to Standard Attacks. More broadly, the 2-Hander has OPTIONS - the 2WF HAS to do one thing and one thing only if they want to be effective at the ONE thing they've dedicated all their Feats to - and there's plenty of things that can trivially prevent them from doing that one thing.
Comparing 'paper doll' full attack DPR further ignores that you don't full attack all the time. Even if you act completely recklessly to maximize the # of rounds you can full attack, the first rounds of fights are often surprise rounds, which sets the advantage to 2 Handers' superior Standard Attack, and which can't be made up in the average length fight by any marginal advantage a 2WF build MIGHT have - Double Weapons are the only way 2WF can address this (Double Swords being the most optimal, yet REQUIRING a Feat), while still giving NO lee-way in Feat selection up to 10th level if you want DPR *PARITY*.
Even for ROGUES, a STR-based 2-Handed Rogue build was found to ALMOST match a 2WF Rogue build for Full-attack DPR (in the "why not 2WF" thread), while decimating the 2WF build for Standard Attacks (and having Feats to spare for actually useful stuff). Above comments about prevalence of Full Attacks vs. Standard Attacks, etc, being equally relevant here, if not more, since positioning requiring moving (Flanking) is more crucial for Rogues than Fighter types.