Wait, what?


Round 2: Summoner and Witch


Soooo...if I get this right, the summoner:

- gets haste at reduced level (2)
- gets black tentacles at reduced level (3)
- gets charm monster at reduced level (3)
- gets the walls at reduced level (3)
- gets grease, glitterdust, barkskin,..

In addition, he gets a pet that is better than any fighter at lower levels...

How is this not incredibly overpowered?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Obviously because the summoner gain new spell levels every 3 levels, so, while he gets them at a reduced spell level, he also gets them later. Also, he only can cast spells of 6th level maximum

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Hipatiafan wrote:
Obviously because the summoner gain new spell levels every 3 levels, so, while he gets them at a reduced spell level, he also gets them later. Also, he only can cast spells of 6th level maximum

Also do not forget that not only is what Hipatiafan stated correct, but the saving throws of those spells are similarly reduced by 1, which is not a good thing.


The bard advances similarly to the summoner in spell advancement. They have several spells that are higher level for a wizard/sorcerer, and they suffer the same slower spell progression rate.
It balances out.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Not to mention he wont be casting those spells as often as any of the primary spellcasters. Sure he could have big impact on one or two fights, but his reduced spells per day means he will be relying on his pet alot more then his spells.

Dark Archive

And the eidolon's hd even out at 4th level.


As mentioned they advance similar to a bard, which also gain some spells at a reduced level. The divine spells added to his list is obviously thematically appropriate for the concept. As for the pet I have yet to get to play-test one but I do agree that it seems a bit on the strong side at a glance, although it is supposed to be the main feature of the class.


Even if it's the main feature of the class, I should not be an equal to a pure melee class, and at least at low levels, it is.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Remember that a PC is a walking Christmas tree of magic item slots, something an Eidolon isn't.

I believe that the Summoner will be *great* for parties where nobody wants to play a non-caster yet still have some melee potential. It's like a two-man gish team.

Oh wait, did I use the "g-word" ? *head explodes*

Dark Archive

Malaclypse wrote:
Even if it's the main feature of the class, I should not be an equal to a pure melee class, and at least at low levels, it is.

So is a druid's animal companion.


I have to admit that I don't like the tinkering around with spell levels. Even leaving aside 3.5 classes that allow you to cherry-pick spells from other spell lists (I'll take Summon Monster IX as a level 6 wizard spell, please!), it messes around with the price of various magic items. For instance, a Staff of Swarming Insects should now drop in price from 22,800 gp to 20,400 gp if crafted by a summoner. And potions of Haste just dropped from 750 gp to 300 gp.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
hogarth wrote:
I have to admit that I don't like the tinkering around with spell levels. Even leaving aside 3.5 classes that allow you to cherry-pick spells from other spell lists (I'll take Summon Monster IX as a level 6 wizard spell, please!), it messes around with the price of various magic items. For instance, a Staff of Swarming Insects should now drop in price from 22,800 gp to 20,400 gp if crafted by a summoner. And potions of Haste just dropped from 750 gp to 300 gp.

Actually a summoner potion of haste is 400 gp not 300. Remember its not just the spell level but the caster level at which you get that spell that determines the price of these items. That said, it wont screw with anything at my table. When magic items are actually available for purchase, which is rare, they are made by who I say they are made by. Just like I dont think alot of paladins take craft wonderous item or brew potion, I dont see summoners doing it alot either. If you dont like the lower cost items, simply dont make them available. Summoners in this region/world/city are focused on other things.


Kolokotroni wrote:
Actually a summoner potion of haste is 400 gp not 300.

Oh, right. I remembered, but then I forgot again.


Gorbacz wrote:
Remember that a PC is a walking Christmas tree of magic item slots, something an Eidolon isn't.

Buuuuut you can give your Eidolon armor and weapons, and it does technically have the slots open...

Thanks to its nasty habit of coming back, I could see why you wouldn't throw a bunch of magic items on it. A belt of giant strength +6 and a amulet of mighty strikes would definitely not be a bad investment.


Kolokotroni wrote:
When magic items are actually available for purchase, which is rare, they are made by who I say they are made by. Just like I dont think alot of paladins take craft wonderous item or brew potion, I dont see summoners doing it alot either. If you dont like the lower cost items, simply dont make them available. Summoners in this region/world/city are focused on other things.

Note that you don't actually need to know a spell in order to make a magic item based on that spell (with the exception of spell trigger and spell completion items). So anyone with Brew Potion can make a potion of Greater Invisibility or Stoneskin as long as such a potion is possible. Likewise for various wondrous items that mimic spells (like a Cape of the Mountebank, say).

To be honest, it's really the existence 3.5 spell list cherry-picking that bothers me more.


I think there are some balance issues with the summoner, but not neccessarily at the levels the OP suggested. Those specific spells are the ones deemed summoner appropriate (and, group friendly, which is a big deal). If you look, the summoner won't get a lot of those much sooner than the wizard, because their progression is slower. It will matter for making potions and scrolls, but not much else.

As for the eidolon being better than the fighter, what isn't? It does, however, have the ability to outshine some of the other melees, which is where the problem comes in. A little bit of tweaking will be needed, but the class still isn't on par with the breakability of the 3.5 druid.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
hogarth wrote:
Kolokotroni wrote:
When magic items are actually available for purchase, which is rare, they are made by who I say they are made by. Just like I dont think alot of paladins take craft wonderous item or brew potion, I dont see summoners doing it alot either. If you dont like the lower cost items, simply dont make them available. Summoners in this region/world/city are focused on other things.

Note that you don't actually need to know a spell in order to make a magic item based on that spell (with the exception of spell trigger and spell completion items). So anyone with Brew Potion can make a potion of Greater Invisibility or Stoneskin as long as such a potion is possible. Likewise for various wondrous items that mimic spells (like a Cape of the Mountebank, say).

To be honest, it's really the existence 3.5 spell list cherry-picking that bothers me more.

That is my mistake i thought potions were included in spell completion and spell trigger items, but you are right, they are use activated. I think that is definately something I would correct at my table, as I think its abusable, but then again I've never seen anyone try to brew a potion thats not on their list in the first place. Either way I still wouldnt make them available for purchase as a summoner spell.

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