Our Heroes garnered 56,320 xp this session - doubled from baseline for concluding the campaign in such a dramatic (and expeditious) fashion.
Most of the characters have eked into 11th level.
Congrats on finishing the campaign! Was it also voluntary on your part that the PC's skipped many encounters of the 6th book?
My players largely decided their course of action based on the information provided to them, Moonbeam. They knew that noble families, the dottori, the Hellknights were all having problems. They knew that the dead walked abroad, narfing brains, faces and entrails in (what I call) Old Town. They did what they did in a (well reasoned) effort to give the Drovenges as little time as humanly possible to hatch their nefarious plan. Especially in light of "not moving fast enough" as regards the imprisoned Named Pit Fiend.
I vastly prefer not to rail road things any way, making Kingmaker VERY appealing to me. As circumstances dictate I will wave the "plot arrows are pointing you HERE" at them. The rest of the time I try to leave it up to them. Some times of course, you kind of have to hand hold the players to keep things moving along ...
Ironically, I found that a goodly portion of CoT is "sand boxy", permitting the players to determine where they go to whomp on what bad guys. Some times, as it should be, that can lead to Very Bad Things happening. Say, if very early on the Heroes decide to attempt entry into the Lodge before gathering certain bits of information ... or go after the Bastards really early on ...
Compared to most of the previous APs, CoT is very flexible in what the players can do and when they can be permitted to do it. There are only a few "choke points", most of which they can skirt around (the play for example in Chapter 2 can be glossed over if so desired, although I would not recommend it).
Now, if you have CotCT but do not anticipate running much of it (such as if you are not inclined to update it to PRPG), some of the early elements of that AP can be transplanted VERY nicely into CoT. Hindsight is a beautiful thing some times ... :)
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I would agree completely, Turin.
Take Bastards of Erebus, lead into Seven Days to the Grave, follow that with split Escape from Old Korvosa/What Lies in Dust, and then keep rolling on through CoT as written...
That would be a fast-paced, filled with tension, fix this damn city before it falls down around us kind of game.
Hmmm... I'd be very interested in a thread for working out how to weld the best bits from the first half of CotCT into CoT. I can see the general outline but a collaborative effort working out the details would be extremely useful.
Oh, and great journal, BTW.
Hmmm... I'd be very interested in a thread for working out how to weld the best bits from the first half of CotCT into CoT. I can see the general outline but a collaborative effort working out the details would be extremely useful.
Oh, and great journal, BTW.
Many thanks Morrow! Once I get over Cap'n Harris' episode tonight on Deadliest Catch, that should be quite do-able.
What I did for the quartet of villains my players stomped a mud hole in:
Sandor the Strange (page 44, “Mother of Flies”), CR 11, maximized hit points, add 4 to Dex & 3 to Con = 18 Dex, 16 Con
- AC: 21 / flat-footed AC: 16 || Touch AC: 15 / flat-footed touch AC: 10 || CMD: 21
- Fortitude +9 || Reflex +8
- Hit Points: 139 (45 from 12d6 wizard hit dice +72 CON +22 false life)
Thesing the Vampire (page 36), CR 11 … have to use the as-written version modified as follows: AC 32 (+4 Dex), Touch AC 16, HP: 112 (Cha 20), Dominate DC 20, Energy Drain DC 20, concentration +12, Stealth +24, Reflex +13
Zovarue CR 11 (12,800 xp)
LE Female Advanced Medusa Sorcerer 8 (infernal bloodline) Medium Monstrous Humanoid
Hit Points: 171 (44 [8d10 racial] +31 [8d6 sorcerer] +96 CON [6 x 16 total hit dice]); Resist fire 5 (bloodline) or electricity 20, fire 20; spell immunity [blindness/deafness, dimensional anchor, silence]; freedom of movement
Initiative: +10 (+4 Improved Initiative +6 DEX) Speed: 30’; Stealth +19 | spider climb 15’
Senses: all-around vision [cannot be flanked], darkvision 60’; Perception +21, Sense Motive +12
AC: 31 || flat-footed AC: 24 (incorporeal touch +6 natural); extended displacement (total concealment), mage armor, shield, resist energy x2, spider climb, grease
• Incorporeal Touch AC: 25 || flat-footed incorporeal touch AC: 18 (touch +4 mage armor +4 shield)
• Touch AC: 17 (+6 DEX +1 dodge) || flat-footed touch AC: 10
SAVES:
• Fortitude +10 (base 2 race +2 sorcerer +6 CON)
o Fortitude +12 vs. poisons (+2 bloodline)
• Reflex +14 (base 6 race +2 sorcerer +6 DEX)
• Will +16 (base 6 race +6 sorcerer +4 WIS)
Ability Scores: 16 Str (+3), 23 Dex (+6), 22 Con (+6), 14 Int (+2), 19 Wis (+4), 26 Cha (+8)
Special Attacks: petrifying gaze (Su) [Fortitude DC 22 negates permanent petrification, 30’ range <10 +4 +8>; free action to remove the veil she wears to suppress her gaze]; +2 DC for charm spells (bloodline arcana)
Corrupting Touch (Sp, CL 8th) standard action, 11/day, melee touch = shaken for 4 rounds (& gains an aura of evil as if the victim were an evil outsider)
Base Attack: +12/+7/+2 (+8 racial hit dice +4 sorcerer)
• Melee AB / CMB: +15/+10/+5
• Finesse/ Ranged AB: +18/+13/+8
• CMD: 31 (10 +3 Str +6 Dex +12 base attack)
o Grease spell =CMD 41 vs. grapple attempts
Melee: +1 mithral dagger +19 / +14 / +9 (base 12 +6 DEX +1 enhancement) [1d4+4, 19-20 || Arcane Strike = 1d4+6, 19-20], snake bite +18 [1d4+3 || Arcane Strike = 1d4+5/magic plus medusa poison <Fort DC 20, 1x/round for 6 rounds, 1d3 Strength, cure: 2 consecutive saves>]
Spells Known (CL 8th, concentration +16, DC 18 + spell level, Short: 45’ | Medium: 180’ | Long: 720’)
• 4th Level (5 -1 per day, DC 22): fire shield [personal, 8 rounds (D), chill shield = deals 1d6+8 cold damage for each melee attack against her; sheds blue light to 10’, half or no damage from fire-based attacks] || empowered acid arrow [<2d4+50%> acid damage per round], empowered scorching ray [2 rays, each dealing <4d6+50%> fire damage], extended displacement [total concealment for 16 rounds (D)]
• 3rd Level (7 -3 per day, DC 21): displacement [touch, total concealment for 8 rounds (D)], suggestion* (DC 23, Close range), lightning bolt [120’ x5’ line, 8d6 electricity, Reflex half] || empowered magic missile [<4d4+50%>+4 force damage], extended resist energy [resist 20 for 160 minutes], extended spider climb [160 minutes]
• 2nd Level (8 -4 per day, DC 20): acid arrow [Long range, duration: impact +2 rounds @ 2d4 acid damage per round], resist energy [resist 20 for 80 minutes], scorching ray* [Close | 2 rays, 4d6 fire damage each], spider climb [80 minutes] || extended grease [16 minutes (D)], mage armor [16 hours (D)], extended protection from good [16 minutes (D)], extended shield [16 minutes (D)]
• 1st Level (8 per day, DC 19): feather fall, grease [Close range, 8 minutes (D), +10 circumstance bonus on CMB checks to escape a grapple & CMD to avoid being grappled], mage armor [8 hours (D)], magic missile [4d4+4, Medium range], protection from good* [touch, 8 minutes (D)], shield [personal, 8 minutes (D)]
• Cantrips (DC 18): acid splash, bleed, detect magic, mage hand, mending, prestidigitation, read magic
Languages: Common (native), Draconic and Infernal (Int)
Feats: Arcane Strike (+2 damage & magic), Blind-Fight, Combat Casting [+20 concentration when casting defensively], Craft Wondrous Item, Dodge, Empower Spell, Eschew Materials, Extend Spell, Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse
Skills: Bluff +16 [5r +3t +8 Cha], Knowledge [arcana] +10 & [engineering] +7 [5r each +3/+0t +2 Int], Perception +21 [10r +3t +4 racial +4 Wis], Sense Motive +12 [5r +3t +4 Wis], Stealth +19 [10r +3t +6 Dex]
Gear: +1 mithral dagger, headband of alluring charisma +2, amulet of natural armor +1, wand of scorching ray [CL 11th, 16 charges <50’ range, 3 rays @ 4d6 fire damage each>]
 
Vuiper Ghivel CR 11 (12,800 xp)
LE Male Human Medium Humanoid (human) Cleric of Abadar 12th (Nobility, Protection)
Hit Points: 106 (58 [12d8 cleric hit dice] +36 [3 CON x12 hit dice] +12 Toughness)
Senses: Perception +6 Initiative: +3 (DEX), cannot attack first Speed: 30’
AC: 19 | flat-footed AC: 16 (touch +4 armor)
Touch AC: 15 | flat-footed touch AC: 12 (10 +2 deflection)
SAVES
• Fortitude: +14 (base +8 +3 CON +3 resistance)
• Reflex: +10 (base +4 +3 DEX +3 resistance)
• Will: +17 (base +8 +6 WIS +3 resistance)
Ability Scores: 8 Str (-1), 16 Dex (+3), 16 Con (+3), 10 Int, 22 Wis (+6), 16 Cha (+3)
Channel Negative Energy (Su) 6d6 – Will DC 19 half, 30’ radius burst from him, standard action, DF req’d.
Aura of Protection (Su) himself and his allies within 30’ gain +2 deflection bonus to AC & resist energy 5 (all) for up to 12 rounds per day.
Inspiring Word (Sp) standard action, 9x/day, 30’ range, grants +2 morale bonus on attack rolls, saving throws, ability checks and skill checks for 6 rounds to one creature.
Base Attack: +9/+4
• Melee AB: +8 / +3
o masterwork dagger +9/+4 (1d4, 19-20)
• Ranged AB: +12 / +7
o +1 keen light crossbow +13/+8 (1d8+1, 17-20)
 2 greater human slaying light bolts (Fort DC 23 vs. 100 points damage via death effect)
 1 elf slaying light bolt (Fort DC 20 vs.50 points damage via death effect)
• CMD: 23 (10 +9 base attack -1 Strength +3 Dexterity +2 deflection)
Prepared Spells: Save DC 16 +SL d20+18 concentration d20+12 vs. SR
• 6th Level (3+domain, DC 22): find the path*, heal, word of recall; domain: anti-magic field
• 5th Level (4+domain, DC 21): command – greater, flame strike (x2), scrying*; domain: spell resistance* [SR 24 for 12 minutes]
• 4th Level (4+domain, DC 20): dimensional anchor, freedom of movement** (x2 – one for Zovarue), spell immunity* (for Zovarue – otherwise the same as his own) ; domain: spell immunity* [to blindness/deafness, dimensional anchor and silence for 2 hours]
• 3rd Level (5+domain, DC 19): dispel magic, invisibility purge [60’], prayer, remove blindness/deafness, magic circle against good*; domain: protection from energy* [120 points fire | 2 hours]
• 2nd Level (6+domain, DC 18): spiritual weapon x6; domain: enthrall
• 1st Level (6+domain, DC 17): cure light wounds x6; domain: sanctuary
• Orisons (4, DC 16): bleed, detect magic, guidance, stabilize
Due to the vagaries in game time, it is worth noting that in game time that the news has spread that newly-crowned Emperor Ranco and Empress Jade have ascended the steps of the Crimson Throne at about the same time as Our Heroes crushed Eccardian Drovenge and the Council of Thieves.
Korvosa is now ruled by devotees of of Zon-Kuthon ...
Initially Da Cultist proposed that they split up to tackle several 'leads' at once.
Actually, that is how it was interpreted. If I was allowed to clearify past "We should splitting the part up." I was only thinking 2 groups. Being left to be devoured and becoming a mockery of life and a denial of a natural death is something I could hardly stand!
The undead abominations really needed to be taken care of, but in interest staying together and being able to do something verses being all by my self and facing my death, however noble, wasn't going to help anyone except my sense of honor and personal vendettas. So I opted to try and get at the heart of the situation.
Initially Da Cultist proposed that they split up to tackle several 'leads' at once.
Actually, that is how it was interpreted. If I was allowed to clearify past "We should splitting the part up." I was only thinking 2 groups. Being left to be devoured and becoming a mockery of life and a denial of a natural death is something I could hardly stand!
The undead abominations really needed to be taken care of, but in interest staying together and being able to do something verses being all by my self and facing my death, however noble, wasn't going to help anyone except my sense of honor and personal vendettas. So I opted to try and get at the heart of the situation.
Oh, it was very clear that it would be two groups - you, and everyone else. :)
In the aftermath of thoroughly stomping a mudhole in the Council of Thieves, Da Dancer and Da Cultist - as I presently understand it - are remaining behind to govorn the city. The remaining player characters are pursuing General Vourne's quiet 'lead' regarding distant Brevoy.
Cast of Characters
- Torsin IV, Paladin 6 (Iomedae), Wizard 5 (Diviner); Draggy the Dragon soulbound doll (advanced, 4 HD + Sorcerer 9 (Draconic))
- Jade II, Fighter 1, Sorcerer 7 (Elemental Water), Eldritch Knight 3; Fluff Gugg (advanced, 4 HD + Cleric 9 (Lamashtu))
- Zin Serina - named changed after gender changed -, Monk 11 (Irori); Bard 9 cohort is the chief supplier of crafted magical items & mindlinked to his boss
- Max, DMPC 11; Mistah Mwangi (advanced soulbound doll, "Witch Doctor" 9); also has 'claim' to Molly Missy since Zin Serina has steadfastly refused to do so.
Torsin has garnered further information regarding a 'starfall' to the distant north near one of Varisia's numerous, wretched hives of scum and villainy - Riddleport. She needs this starmetal to alloy with mithril in order to fashion a suit of celestial full plate body armor. At that 'city' they will meet up with Da Pimp's replacement character and his colonial entourage. Somewhere in all of this mess Da Cultist's replacement character will be encountered.
For the now the followers of Jade II, Torsin IV, Zin Serina and Max are remaining behind under the aegis of Da Dancer and Da Cultist, to be retrieved at a later time.
If any of the other two relevant player characters - Zin Serina and Jade II - have any "ambition items" to attain, I am hoping that they speak up about it over the next 2 or 3 weeks' time so I can 'adjust' accordingly. ^_^
The PC group is 5 11th level characters, 25 point buy plus advanced template plus Max.
All of them - or all but one of them - have or will have 9th level cohorts and a small army of followers (although most of them are leaving the followers behind for now, to be brought in at around Chapter 3 of KM, more or less).
That group has 10 - 12 sets of actions per round, and those actions hit HARD. They also have 15th level "wealth" at this point.
All in all, as things stand now, I consider the player characters equivalent to 14th level characters with cohorts - in other words, a 15th level party. they can expect to see encounter levels around the 18 mark from time to time, possibly higher.
I've added a line of thought for the players to consider - the fresher 'lead' on starmetal at Riddleport, the older 'lead' somewhere off of the shores of Qadira ... or the third, probably more dangerous lead of distant Numeria ...
In addition, since the APG is due out this week or next at the latest, I am offering them the option of "retraining" their player characters to account for the new materials. Since this is definitely an expansion of power, I stand firm in my above assertion of the group's effective party level.
Things are definitely going to get interesting... :)
At that 'city' they will meet up with Da Pimp's replacement character and his colonial entourage. Somewhere in all of this mess Da Cultist's replacement character will be encountered.
At this point I have decided that until I am sure we have a viable cleric in the part I will stick around with this current character.
Once we have a cleric other than me, I am considering playing a battle sorcerer or maybe the new battle bard from the APG, and bring in my old favorite character from Age of Worms, the original hexblade, Sir Hexen Ineptus, but with this different class. I think it maybe more appropriate for my character any way.
At that 'city' they will meet up with Da Pimp's replacement character and his colonial entourage. Somewhere in all of this mess Da Cultist's replacement character will be encountered.
At this point I have decided that until I am sure we have a viable cleric in the part I will stick around with this current character.
Once we have a cleric other than me, I am considering playing a battle sorcerer or maybe the new battle bard from the APG, and bring in my old favorite character from Age of Worms, the original hexblade, Sir Hexen Ineptus, but with this different class. I think it maybe more appropriate for my character any way.
If you (the group) have 2 or 3 "pocket clerics", having a "full" cleric is rather redundant...
If you (the group) have 2 or 3 "pocket clerics", having a "full" cleric is rather redundant...At that 'city' they will meet up with Da Pimp's replacement character and his colonial entourage. Somewhere in all of this mess Da Cultist's replacement character will be encountered.
At this point I have decided that until I am sure we have a viable cleric in the part I will stick around with this current character.
Once we have a cleric other than me, I am considering playing a battle sorcerer or maybe the new battle bard from the APG, and bring in my old favorite character from Age of Worms, the original hexblade, Sir Hexen Ineptus, but with this different class. I think it maybe more appropriate for my character any way.
I will see how things run a session or two, but I will start working on a replacement. In character I have not seen them in real action and would not want to leave it up to them right off the bat as I do care about the party, and want to leave them well capable of survival.
I will see how things run a session or two, but I will start working on a replacement. In character I have not seen them in real action and would not want to leave it up to them right off the bat as I do care about the party, and want to leave them well capable of survival.If you (the group) have 2 or 3 "pocket clerics", having a "full" cleric is rather redundant...At that 'city' they will meet up with Da Pimp's replacement character and his colonial entourage. Somewhere in all of this mess Da Cultist's replacement character will be encountered.
At this point I have decided that until I am sure we have a viable cleric in the part I will stick around with this current character.
Once we have a cleric other than me, I am considering playing a battle sorcerer or maybe the new battle bard from the APG, and bring in my old favorite character from Age of Worms, the original hexblade, Sir Hexen Ineptus, but with this different class. I think it maybe more appropriate for my character any way.
Let us say, for example, that 3 characters are slain - as in, "mostly dead" - in the same round but the pocket clerics remain intact. The 3 pocket clerics drop a breath of life and *pouf*, no more dead characters. Although the temporary negative level part kinda sucks ...
Let us say, for example, that 3 characters are slain - as in, "mostly dead" - in the same round but the pocket clerics remain intact. The 3 pocket clerics drop a breath of life and *pouf*, no more dead characters. Although the temporary negative level part kinda sucks ...I will see how things run a session or two, but I will start working on a replacement. In character I have not seen them in real action and would not want to leave it up to them right off the bat as I do care about the party, and want to leave them well capable of survival.If you (the group) have 2 or 3 "pocket clerics", having a "full" cleric is rather redundant...At that 'city' they will meet up with Da Pimp's replacement character and his colonial entourage. Somewhere in all of this mess Da Cultist's replacement character will be encountered.
At this point I have decided that until I am sure we have a viable cleric in the part I will stick around with this current character.
Once we have a cleric other than me, I am considering playing a battle sorcerer or maybe the new battle bard from the APG, and bring in my old favorite character from Age of Worms, the original hexblade, Sir Hexen Ineptus, but with this different class. I think it maybe more appropriate for my character any way.
Great... Torsin is now considering making her cohort a cleric as well...
I guess I should really start working on the battle bard.
Torsin read what you posted, and well... Is not happy now as she can not definitively make up her mind between cleric and sorcerer.
P.S. Can I still keep Mr. Straw for my new character if I take the leadership feat?
Let us say, for example, that 3 characters are slain - as in, "mostly dead" - in the same round but the pocket clerics remain intact. The 3 pocket clerics drop a breath of life and *pouf*, no more dead characters. Although the temporary negative level part kinda sucks ...I will see how things run a session or two, but I will start working on a replacement. In character I have not seen them in real action and would not want to leave it up to them right off the bat as I do care about the party, and want to leave them well capable of survival.If you (the group) have 2 or 3 "pocket clerics", having a "full" cleric is rather redundant...At that 'city' they will meet up with Da Pimp's replacement character and his colonial entourage. Somewhere in all of this mess Da Cultist's replacement character will be encountered.
At this point I have decided that until I am sure we have a viable cleric in the part I will stick around with this current character.
Once we have a cleric other than me, I am considering playing a battle sorcerer or maybe the new battle bard from the APG, and bring in my old favorite character from Age of Worms, the original hexblade, Sir Hexen Ineptus, but with this different class. I think it maybe more appropriate for my character any way.
Great... Torsin is now considering making her cohort a cleric as well...
I guess I should really start working on the battle bard.
Torsin read what you posted, and well... Is not happy now as she can not definitively make up her mind between cleric and sorcerer.
P.S. Can I still keep Mr. Straw for my new character if I take the leadership feat?
Make Mr. Straw a "pocket cleric" - go for it. ^_^
Make Mr. Straw a "pocket cleric" - go for it. ^_^Let us say, for example, that 3 characters are slain - as in, "mostly dead" - in the same round but the pocket clerics remain intact. The 3 pocket clerics drop a breath of life and *pouf*, no more dead characters. Although the temporary negative level part kinda sucks ...I will see how things run a session or two, but I will start working on a replacement. In character I have not seen them in real action and would not want to leave it up to them right off the bat as I do care about the party, and want to leave them well capable of survival.If you (the group) have 2 or 3 "pocket clerics", having a "full" cleric is rather redundant...
At this point I have decided that until I am sure we have a viable cleric in the part I will stick around with this current character.Once we have a cleric other than me, I am considering playing a battle sorcerer or maybe the new battle bard from the APG, and bring in my old favorite character from Age of Worms, the original hexblade, Sir Hexen Ineptus, but with this different class. I think it maybe more appropriate for my character any way.
Great... Torsin is now considering making her cohort a cleric as well...
I guess I should really start working on the battle bard.
Torsin read what you posted, and well... Is not happy now as she can not definitively make up her mind between cleric and sorcerer.
P.S. Can I still keep Mr. Straw for my new character if I take the leadership feat?
Rogue is needed though right? Reconnaissance and such, as well as finding traps and disabling devices, such as locks.
P.S. We have a problem.... Torsin's cohort is offically researching how to make other animated dolls like itself. We are all doomed the doomy doom of animated dragon dollpocalypse.
There are several ways to acquire trapfinding sir - and Zin Serina has swapped her monk self-heal for trapfinding, retraining notwithstanding.
Not knowing what is in the APG at this point does not help yet of course ...
However, I do like Draggy's ambition ... >:)
I would like to share at this point my Lycan Spawn pathfinder v3. Viewers, feedback is always welcomed.
I would like to finally play-test this template, if that would be alright.
That is a LOT of extra stuff to stack on top of any of the core and base classes...
In spite of the ability score adjustments being 'on par', you gain a great deal in exchange for the silver vulnerability - in Council of Thieves this could well have been a death sentence many times over. In most campaigns, however, this is a non-issue. Especially by comparison to the other published adventure paths - none of them heavily featured antagonists with alchemical silver and/or mithral weaponry until Council of Thieves.
Having said all that, if the silver vulnerability is applicable at any time that the creature is attacked by anything with a permanent +3 or greater enhancement that the vulnerability applies, then I would consider this a legitimate vulnerability.
Critiques:
They gain the shapechanger subtype, with everything that comes with having that subtype. This does not need to be 'special' for this race.
As an inherited template - apparently intended to be 'tacked onto' a normal PC race - this needs to be specified a bit better. As written, there are no creature type restrictions.
Alignment is a non-issue - that is covered by the creature that inherits the template in combination with that creature's class(es).
If something qualifies as lycanthropy, it is lycanthropy - in this case, it is strictly 'natural' lycanthropy without the lycanthropic curse.
However, I think that lycanthropy is supposed to be a horrendous curse, all too often resulting in the deaths of those the victim loves - and most often, the victim themselves. Natural lycanthropes are the 'originally cursed' creatures that infect those that survive their attacks, dooming those they infect to a fate considered to be worse than death.
At 12th level - which is basically where the group is at now, shy a few thousand XP - the "Lycan Spawn" as written seems to have virtually none of its significant limitations save for the silver vulnerability.
That is a LOT of extra stuff to stack on top of any of the core and base classes...
Yeah, a lot of little things, but most of it is balancing. How about I cut the animal form unless they spend a feat or two?
I will post it in the home brew content form to get some feedback as well. We have a few weeks.
P.S. Maybe a quick summarize will help?
-2 Int
+1 Perception
Vulnerable to things targeting Lycanthropy
Qualifies as Lycanthropy and shapeshifter at 9HD
Vulnerability to silver
-Sickened if they carry silver
Spell Like Ability -Hybrid Animal Form
- Low Light Vision
- +2 Circumstance bonus to disguise
- Qualify for Keen Scent feat (APG 164)
- +2 Str +2 Con
- Natural Attacks
- Counter-able by Calm Emotions and Waves of Fatigue spells, as well as any other effect that fatigues them.
- Being forced into human form fatigues them.
- Special extra -2 Str and Dex for being forced back to human form.
- Animal form for the cost of a feat
- +1 natural armor if they are in an alternate form
We have a problem.... Torsin's cohort is offically researching how to make other animated dolls like itself. We are all doomed the doomy doom of animated...
Oh ye GODS! That sounds utterly horrifying. And entertaining.
Having said all that, if the silver vulnerability is applicable at any time that the creature is attacked by anything with a permanent +3 or greater enhancement that the vulnerability applies, then I would consider this a legitimate vulnerability.
Wow that would be something, I need to think about that. Not a bad suggestion, but maybe that would be too common? I mean how often would a red dragon disguised as a human be faced with cold damage?
Critiques:
They gain the shapechanger subtype, with everything that comes with having that subtype. This does not need to be 'special' for this race.
Okay.
As an inherited template - apparently intended to be 'tacked onto' a normal PC race - this needs to be specified a bit better. As written, there are no creature type restrictions.
I think I used the same rules for lycanthropy as to which races can get it or not. This isn't just for PC races.
Alignment is a non-issue - that is covered by the creature that inherits the template in combination with that creature's class(es).
Okay, thought I should make mention of that for non-PC use.
If something qualifies as lycanthropy, it is lycanthropy - in this case, it is strictly 'natural' lycanthropy without the lycanthropic curse.
Half Orcs and Half Elves do not exactly follow these rules with their racial blood abilities.
However, I think that lycanthropy is supposed to be a horrendous curse, all too often resulting in the deaths of those the victim loves - and most often, the victim themselves. Natural lycanthropes are the 'originally cursed' creatures that infect those that survive their attacks, dooming those they infect to a fate considered to be worse than death.
Okay, natural lycanthropes do have full control over their transforming. So they are do have a chance of having normal lives if they want to, so it isn't so much of a cures really. It is my understanding that inflicted were cursed, while natural lycanthropy where accidents by their offspring that were not necessarily cursed but gifted. That at least make more sense to me, but however you or the game runs with it that is fine.
At 12th level - which is basically where the group is at now, shy a few thousand XP - the "Lycan Spawn" as written seems to have virtually none of its significant limitations save for the silver vulnerability.
The vulnerabilities are still there as any intelligent opponent might have a silver weapon on them, and any caster could cast calm emotions or spell that causes fatigue which not only makes them lose most of their bonuses, but gives them extra negatives for being forced to humanoid form. I will think about the +3 weapon effect, but if they are carrying a +3 weapon, I don't see why they wouldn't possibly carry a silver weapon, which is a far weaker magical effect.
Thanks!
The vulnerabilities are still there as any intelligent opponent might have a silver weapon on them, and any caster could cast calm emotions or spell that causes fatigue which not only makes them lose most of their bonuses, but gives them extra negatives for being forced to humanoid form. I will think about the +3 weapon effect, but if they are carrying a +3 weapon, I don't see why they wouldn't possibly carry a silver weapon, which is a far weaker magical effect.
You misunderstand - based on the PRPG Damage Reduction rules, all +3 weapons (and equivalents, such as +3 amulets of mighty fists and certain monks) bypass silver DR. Intelligent foes don't often carry silver weapons as a primary weapon - or an equivalent to the same - very often because they are softer and deal less damage. Since this template does not grant DR ##/silver - but instead Vulnerability: Silver - this needs to be addressed. In order to really qualify as a comparable weakness - comparable to lycanthropes sucking it up when getting whacked with +3 weapons as well as mithral and actual silvered weapons.
In an area rumored to be "infested" with lycanthropes and other shapechangers, I can see lots of silver and cold iron ammunition being carried in to see which one does the most good, then weaponry is switched accordingly. However, that takes precious time ... time that a higher level lycan spawn is simply not going to give its foes, such as what your character would be.
A red dragon in human form is subject to cold damage the same as people are - when ever they're whacked with it. Comparing energy damage to weapon damage is apples to oranges, since the two 'delivery mechanisms' are radically different, with accompanying differences in defenses. Energy damage is often easier to deal with between resist energy and protection from energy, whilst the only comparatively common defense against weapon damage is stoneskin and certain polymorph subschool spells.
I think you missed my point regarding this template's "flavor" of lycanthropy. In game terms, they are natural lycanthropes without the "curse of lycanthropy" quality. They gain the shapechanger subtype - as discussed previously, meaning that they add "shapechanger" to "elf" or "orc" and "human" in the case of half-elves and half-orcs respectively.
Lastly, consider that asides from the uncommon weakness to effects triggering one particular subset of conditions (fatigued, exhausted and a particular subset of spells that are not commonly prepared unless the area has a preponderance of barbarians or other creatures capable of rage), the only significant "balancing factor" is the vulnerability to silver. In exchange for this they gain a version of the change shape ability. I did not catch the part - if any - about being unduly influenced by phases of the moon as traditionally affects many lycanthropes - especially afflicted (and thus weaker) ones.
At about the point your character would be entering play you effectively have attained the pinnacle of the template. That is not an unbiased playtest in my opinion. I have deep reservations about assigning a "+0" even at this point in the campaign because of the not-insignificant advantages this template grants a character. To give a comparison, stack this against the meager advantages of an aasimar, which is a +0...
Scent especially is often underestimated - while it is easy to overestimate it as well, it is a sure bypass of quite a few things that taken in conjunction with feats such as Blind-Fight make the greater challenges at low levels "always bypassable". Not temporarily bypassable, nor is scent dispellable, such as is the case with various magical means of enhanced perception such as see invisibility.
While not quite as good as blindsight, it is very much on par with tremorsense and blindsense. It is not automatic - but it is very close to it, and unlike the other abilities it potentially outranges them based on distance and strength of scent. Also, no other ability grants (albeit relatively shortly lived) tracking without the Survival skill.
Okay, to lessen their abilities a tad.
I made it so they can only take on the hybrid form, and can buy the animal form for a feat. I made them simply qualify for the Keen Scent feat which is in the APG. It normally is only viable for orcs of the proper wisdom, but it grants scent.
I must not be that big of a deal if a character with no level adjust can get it with a feat at level 1.
I am willing to try the +3 weapon vulnerability. Assuming this, and the other changes makes it viable as a +0 CR. However if anyone is out on the range, I personally would always have a cold iron and silver back up weapon, such as a dagger, if I had the option.
However perhaps for simplified version to play test could be tried. No changing forms or anything weird like that.
Lycan Touched (Template)
+2 to any one physical stat corresponding to their base animal.
-2 Int
Natural Attacks: Lycan Touched have two claw attacks that deal 1D6 damage (assumed size medium).
Lycan Touched automatically qualify for the Keen Scent feat.
Lycanthropic Aura, Immunities, Silver Vulnerability, as per lycan spawn (v4 pathfinder).
Okay, to lessen their abilities a tad.
I made it so they can only take on the hybrid form, and can buy the animal form for a feat. I made them simply qualify for the Keen Scent feat which is in the APG. It normally is only viable for orcs of the proper wisdom, but it grants scent.
I must not be that big of a deal if a character with no level adjust can get it with a feat at level 1.
I am willing to try the +3 weapon vulnerability. Assuming this, and the other changes makes it viable as a +0 CR. However if anyone is out on the range, I personally would always have a cold iron and silver back up weapon, such as a dagger, if I had the option.
However perhaps for simplified version to play test could be tried. No changing forms or anything weird like that.
Lycan Touched (Template)
+2 to any one physical stat corresponding to their base animal.
-2 IntNatural Attacks: Lycan Touched have two claw attacks that deal 1D6 damage (assumed size medium).
Lycan Touched automatically qualify for the Keen Scent feat.
Lycanthropic Aura, Immunities, Silver Vulnerability, as per lycan spawn (v4 pathfinder).
Immunities? Aren't those tied into the fact that they are shapechanger subtyped ?
Immunities? Aren't those tied into the fact that they are shapechanger subtyped ?Okay, to lessen their abilities a tad.
I made it so they can only take on the hybrid form, and can buy the animal form for a feat. I made them simply qualify for the Keen Scent feat which is in the APG. It normally is only viable for orcs of the proper wisdom, but it grants scent.
I must not be that big of a deal if a character with no level adjust can get it with a feat at level 1.
I am willing to try the +3 weapon vulnerability. Assuming this, and the other changes makes it viable as a +0 CR. However if anyone is out on the range, I personally would always have a cold iron and silver back up weapon, such as a dagger, if I had the option.
However perhaps for simplified version to play test could be tried. No changing forms or anything weird like that.
Lycan Touched (Template)
+2 to any one physical stat corresponding to their base animal.
-2 IntNatural Attacks: Lycan Touched have two claw attacks that deal 1D6 damage (assumed size medium).
Lycan Touched automatically qualify for the Keen Scent feat.
Lycanthropic Aura, Immunities, Silver Vulnerability, as per lycan spawn (v4 pathfinder).
They are not a shape changer, or of that subtype any more, but are of that ancestor.
P.S. I would like to add the caveat that you can not increase a stat past a base of 20 with this template. So it would go to the next highest physical stat of the base animal.
P.P.S. Torsin says she will help her cohort out with finding a way to create more dolls.
Sir Turin:
Given some of the earlier catastrophes (most notably the pit fiend), I assume there was some very generous GM adjudication on things not strictly covered by the Adventure Path for the party to have made up so much ground and scored an 'independence' result in the final interview?
Correct. Just because they did not 'score' according to the path should not override the sense of drama / cool. The players basically did everything right in order to crush the bad guys before they were able to enact their nefarious plot - and such heroics should be rewarded.
If you wanted to get rid of the immunity, I guess that would be alright.
It seems that the dolls have an agenda of their own. An inspired stroke by Torsin's player. :)
"Beast Born" - or something not so clearly tied to the Underworld movies in my mind - is perhaps more appropriate a name to use.
Basically, Ineptus is shooting for a new "+0" race. That is commendable, and the adaptation of some of the other races' goodies from the APG is smart. A question is - what subtype of humanoid are they? At the least they should have to choose one to reflect their non-beastial heritage. The humanoid subtype would determine starting size and speed, and perhaps determine a bonus or two acquired based upon that subtype chosen...
However, you will want a crisp new write-up based upon the ones we see in the Core Rulebook.
EDIT: Sir Charles, you are a credit sir, I love the concepts ... and it fits some of the thematic elements in Kingmaker. ^_^
It seems that the dolls have an agenda of their own. An inspired stroke by Torsin's player. :)
"Beast Born" - or something not so clearly tied to the Underworld movies in my mind - is perhaps more appropriate a name to use.
Basically, Ineptus is shooting for a new "+0" race. That is commendable, and the adaptation of some of the other races' goodies from the APG is smart. A question is - what subtype of humanoid are they? At the least they should have to choose one to reflect their non-beastial heritage. The humanoid subtype would determine starting size and speed, and perhaps determine a bonus or two acquired based upon that subtype chosen...
However, you will want a crisp new write-up based upon the ones we see in the Core Rulebook.
EDIT: Sir Charles, you are a credit sir, I love the concepts ... and it fits some of the thematic elements in Kingmaker. ^_^
Lycan is short for lycanthropy, but okay I can think of something else, beast born is a bad name tough.
Okay, here it is, the Beast Blooded. Hope you like it.
Okay, here it is, the Beast Blooded. Hope you like it.
Is all of this in addition to the base race's stuff ?
Okay, here it is, the Beast Blooded. Hope you like it.Is all of this in addition to the base race's stuff ?
Yeah, it is supposed to be... but do not you don't get all the feats, just 1. The feats should to par with other feats in the APG. The only feat that has not been done before for other races in the APG is the form changer, which grants a spell like ability. Not sure if that is balanced for a feat or not.
Summary here:
Bonuses
* +2 to one physical stat, but not past 20
* One Racial Feat
* +2 diplomacy check with one animal type
Minuses
* -2 to Int
* -2 Silver Damage Vulnerability.
* -4 to diplomacy and ride with prey animals.
Personally I would say that the -2 int alone does not balance out the +2 to a physical stat.
I would say it is worth about half of what is needed, but the silver damage Vulnerability with worth the other half, and half the value of the feat. The -4 to diplomacy and ride with mounts and prey animals might not be what I really should state. Looking at it now it should be handle animal and ride checks, and maybe it should be a greater number, like -5 to 7, considering they are around something the spells and looks sort of like a predator animal. But with those changes, yes it is worth the other half of the feat and the ability to use diplomacy with one type of animal with a +2 bonus.
However I did forget to add Lycanthropic Blood ability. I will add that now. It is where they qualify as a lycanthrope for magical items, spells, special effects, feats, and classes as a lycanthropy except when it requires them to be able to shape shift. Leaving mostly the negative effects like bane and slay weapons, and class abilities like favorite enemy the main effect from the ability. What is your thoughts on this?
Please, suggestions would be great.
Okay, here it is, the Beast Blooded. Hope you like it.Is all of this in addition to the base race's stuff ?Yeah, it is supposed to be... but do not you don't get all the feats, just 1. The feats should to par with other feats in the APG. The only feat that has not been done before for other races in the APG is the form changer, which grants a spell like ability. Not sure if that is balanced for a feat or not.
Summary here:
Bonuses
* +2 to one physical stat, but not past 20
* One Racial Feat
* +2 diplomacy check with one animal typeMinuses
* -2 to Int
* -2 Silver Damage Vulnerability.
* -4 to diplomacy and ride with prey animals.Personally I would say that the -2 int alone does not balance out the +2 to a physical stat.
I would say it is worth about half of what is needed, but the silver damage Vulnerability with worth the other half, and half the value of the feat. The -4 to diplomacy and ride with mounts and prey animals might not be what I really should state. Looking at it now it should be handle animal and ride checks, and maybe it should be a greater number, like -5 to 7, considering they are around something the spells and looks sort of like a predator animal. But with those changes, yes it is worth the other half of the feat and the ability to use diplomacy with one type of animal with a +2 bonus.However I did forget to add Lycanthropic Blood ability. I will add that now. It is where they qualify as a lycanthrope for magical items, spells, special effects, feats, and classes as a lycanthropy except when it requires them to be able to shape shift. Leaving mostly the negative effects like bane and slay weapons, and class abilities like favorite enemy the main effect from the ability. What is your thoughts on this?
Please, suggestions would be great.
I'll put my two cents in since this has gotten to the point of being almost reasonable. The only thing I would change is to drop the free racial feat. It is fine for them to qualify for a few racial feats, but giving them a free one is overpowered.
Remember this is supposed to be a +0 template that is added on top of a regular race. It is NOT supposed to be as powerful as one of the starting races. In fact every bonus it gives should be pretty much exactly balanced by drawback so that once it is applied the character isn't any more or less powerful than when they started.
A +2 to a physical stat is NOT balanced by a -2 to intelligence. The only class that will really give a d@mn about the intelligence loss is a wizard. I promise you that 95% of the nonwizard characters I play would almost cream their jeans to get a +2 to Str or Con in exchange for -2 Int. This is a point you yourself acknowledged.
That being said +2 to a physical ability is moderately well compensated by a -2 Int and Silver Vulernability, particularly if +3 or better weapons count as silver for the vulnerability.
+2 Diplomany, ride and handle animal for a specific animal, Qualifying for feats the character otherwise wouldn't and Lycan Blood are all moderately well compensated by a -4 or -6 penalty on ride and handle animal checks. I'd say a -6 as they probably REALLY don't like you.
I would probably add that animals, vermin and unintelligent magical beasts' starting attitude to the character becomes hostile once the character's scent is picked up. Domesticated animals - and most prey / herd animals - will do their best to escape the characters' presence. Predator animals will generally attack, although this obviously depends on the animal and its relative size to you.
I would also say that the character cannot be conveniently descended from a herd animal. No one has heard of a "weresheep", "werehorse" or "weregoat". All lycanthropes are either ominivorous or carnivorous that I can ever recollect.
I would probably add that animals, vermin and unintelligent magical beasts' starting attitude to the character becomes hostile once the character's scent is picked up. Domesticated animals - and most prey / herd animals - will do their best to escape the characters' presence. Predator animals will generally attack, although this obviously depends on the animal and its relative size to you.
I would also say that the character cannot be conveniently descended from a herd animal. No one has heard of a "weresheep", "werehorse" or "weregoat". All lycanthropes are either ominivorous or carnivorous that I can ever recollect.
.....Oh god. Now I just have to have the party attacked by a weresheep. "Baaa means no b!tches. How do you like it?"
I would probably add that animals, vermin and unintelligent magical beasts' starting attitude to the character becomes hostile once the character's scent is picked up. Domesticated animals - and most prey / herd animals - will do their best to escape the characters' presence. Predator animals will generally attack, although this obviously depends on the animal and its relative size to you.
I would also say that the character cannot be conveniently descended from a herd animal. No one has heard of a "weresheep", "werehorse" or "weregoat". All lycanthropes are either ominivorous or carnivorous that I can ever recollect.
Okay, that is fine, just that that wasn't needed as you can't be decended from a weresheep, as they can not exist.
Yeah, I had also thought about a stronger lycanthropic aura, that would be fine except you would get some illogical actions from things like dinosaurs, and a size restriction would need to be placed in.
@ Admiral Jose Monkamuck
I specifically am NOT putting in the +3 weapon at all, because that would most definatly take them out of any BBEG fight, robing them of a best moments of the game entirely. If they could wield and own a +3 weapon there isn't many reasons why they wouldn't have a silver or mithral back up weapon they can pull out to mess with these guys.
Umm, with regard to 'beast blooded' I would like to observe that the silver vulnerability is nearly worthless as a balancing factor/drawback from a PC point of view. How many creatures in the bestiary have attacks which naturally count as silver, or how many NPCs habitually carry silver weapons (excepting possibly assassins specifically tailored by a GM to deal with one specific character)?
Likewise, I believe that PCs tend to run into rangers with specific (especially one focused against less common types such as lycanthropes) favoured enemies or other melee/archery types with bane weapons very rarely unless the GM is gunning for that specific character.
As it currently stands it seems to me that the 'beast blooded' is a little too good as a trait not to be worth an additional XP penalty to combat orientated characters. I have some reservations that it is too complex for a trait too, as compared to the ones which I have seen to date, (usually things in the manner of giving one bonus to a particular stat or skill check) but I haven't yet seen the APG which may raise the bar to a new level with regard to multi-faceted traits.Edit:
Hmm. Maybe you could add something like a 'feral rage' aspect where a character has to make a Will save equal to ten plus half their hit-dice or levels* to take any action in a combat situation other than attack/target/pursue the last person to deal hp damage to them?*As the character increases in levels/power, the strength of ill-feeling/hatred against those that physically hurt them grows, probably outstripping (certainly for fighter/barbarian types) the increase in their Will save.
With the current system you lose a level adjust of 1 by midway between levels 2 and 3. Prior to these levels the inability to carry silver is a much greater problem, and having a low hit points running into a random humanoid (elf, human, dwarf, etc.) who spent the meager 20 gold on a silver dagger would spell doom for them at these levels (not all foes are set in the bestiary). It is hard to estimate exactly when this happens, but probably at a latter level than 3rd all of these problems should be bypassed, but unlike the level 1 template, these problems remain no matter how week they become, they are still there. So in actuality all the minuses seem to remain equally or have a greater level of effect than the positives as the levels go on.
Between silversheen and the inevitable 'your weapons strike as if they were silver!' spells which will be along at some point (if indeed they're not already present in the game) there are plenty of ways around the 'oh look it might not be a good idea for me to handle silver' thing of the trait.
And I believe that as you or the captain pointed out, at higher levels weapons with enough magical pluses ignore certain types of DR anyway, so the presumption that PCs may need silver weapons to survive diminishes to practically nothing (excepting possibly a few freak cases of regeneration bypassed by silver) whilst all the bonuses of this trait remain.
Not even the regeneration/silver matters to a +3 or stronger weapon, the sorry bugger simply gets to take lethal damage.
And unless the silver vulnerability retains the damage increase against such weaponry, there is no way this template is going to result in a balanced character.
Between silversheen and the inevitable 'your weapons strike as if they were silver!' spells which will be along at some point (if indeed they're not already present in the game) there are plenty of ways around the 'oh look it might not be a good idea for me to handle silver' thing of the trait.
And I believe that as you or the captain pointed out, at higher levels weapons with enough magical pluses ignore certain types of DR anyway, so the presumption that PCs may need silver weapons to survive diminishes to practically nothing (excepting possibly a few freak cases of regeneration bypassed by silver) whilst all the bonuses of this trait remain.
Not even the regeneration/silver matters to a +3 or stronger weapon, the sorry bugger simply gets to take lethal damage.
And unless the silver vulnerability retains the damage increase against such weaponry, there is no way this template is going to result in a balanced character.
Yeah, I am starting to see that. I will go back to the drawing board.
Thanks
Okay, one more stab at it before I give up for now.
What do you think of this?
If I remember correctly a +2 to con is equal to a -2 to any one mental stat, in 3.5 any way. This should fix the situation with balancing the bonus with the -2 Int. Booya!
However maybe one of the minuses should be dropped.
P.S. Please note that there are a few more feats. Not sure if they are all balanced.
I would like to share at this point my Lycan Spawn pathfinder v3. Viewers, feedback is always welcomed.
I would like to finally play-test this template, if that would be alright.
I believe I was the guinnea pig GM for Lycan Spawn version #1 in Age of Worms. It's good to know that some things never change...:)