Looking at the advancement rates in the XP table, I noticed something odd. In 3.x the formula was straight forward. To advance to L+1 you needed L*1000 more XP than you needed to get to L.
With a Medium-rate advancement, you need 2000, then another 3000, then another 4000 for the first three level-ups. Ok, makes sense. Then you need 6000 and then 8000 for 5th & 6th. Things are ramping up a bit. To get to 7th you need 12000 more. Then 16000 for 8th, and 24000 for 9th. Scales up quickly I see. Then things get odd though, because you only need 30000 XP to move from 9th to 10th, and then 50,000 to go to 11th. Things get wackier from there on out.
The rate of change in the requirement for level up (in thousands) goes 2, 1, 1, 2, 2, 4, 4, 8, 6, 20, 15, 30, 35, 60, 65, 155, 90, 250, 300.
To contrast, the same rate of change (in thousands) for 3.x goes 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, etc...
Now, I'm no math whiz, but I can see the pattern right up until 9th or 10th, and then it goes right out the window. Is there a method to this madness? Is there a formula to this? Are the numbers just arbitrary based on the "value" of each particular level? Or is this a goof?
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I haven't looked that closely at the math yet but something else to consider: 3x used variable xp values for progression (xp based on character level and CR) while it looks like PRPG is using a flat xp system as was used in 1st and 2nd ed.
Like I said I haven't looked at the math and have no idea how that would affect the progressions but it would be something to consider.
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It's because it is a flat xp system.
With a flat xp system, at higher levels you can still get experience for defeating significantly lower level encounters (including traps), so I'm guessing the increase in xp requirement is to prevent higher level characters from leveling by hunting 1st level orcs.
It's because it is a flat xp system.
With a flat xp system, at higher levels you can still get experience for defeating significantly lower level encounters (including traps), so I'm guessing the increase in xp requirement is to prevent higher level characters from leveling by hunting 1st level orcs.
Two issues with that. First, under Awarding Experience it states that characters shouldn't get any XP for CRs less than or equal to their average party level-10. So no goblin farming for XP. :)
Second, I just had a look at the progression of the XP values for the CRs. Setting aside the fractional CRs, CR3 is worth 200 more than CR2, which is worth 200 more than CR1. Every even CR from CR4 onwards doubles the additional XP you get over the previous CR. So CR4 is worth 400 more than CR3, CR5 is worth 400 more than CR4, CR6 is worth 800 more than CR5, etc etc.
So it follows a pattern, the XP awarded increases at a steady rate. Why doesn't level advancement?
It's because it is a flat xp system.
With a flat xp system, at higher levels you can still get experience for defeating significantly lower level encounters (including traps), so I'm guessing the increase in xp requirement is to prevent higher level characters from leveling by hunting 1st level orcs.
Two issues with that. First, under Awarding Experience it states that characters shouldn't get any XP for CRs less than or equal to their average party level-10. So no goblin farming for XP. :)
Second, I just had a look at the progression of the XP values for the CRs. Setting aside the fractional CRs, CR3 is worth 200 more than CR2, which is worth 200 more than CR1. Every even CR from CR4 onwards doubles the additional XP you get over the previous CR. So CR4 is worth 400 more than CR3, CR5 is worth 400 more than CR4, CR6 is worth 800 more than CR5, etc etc.
So it follows a pattern, the XP awarded increases at a steady rate. Why doesn't level advancement?
I think part of it is that doing it that way is more similar to the way it was done before 3.0. When I started (little boxed set called Dungeons and Dragons...way way long time ago) the xp curve was diff for every class...and ramped up as your level did. Even in AD&D, the same happened, although some of the progressions made more sense. And Paizo seemed to go back to that (fine by me...more time haging in the mid to mid-high level sis fine by me).
The part of it, that I can think of, represents the fact that after a while, it simply is that much harder to get better. Look at a 16th level wizard in comparision to the average denzien of his game world...he has enough power to level most city guards garrisons, could easily take most (printed) npc's in a fight, and even fights better in melee than alot of city guards. Yeah, its a little hard for him to find that little snippet of knowledge and lore that makes him better at what he does. Same with fighters, rogues and all. After a while, getting better shouldn't follow a simple formula, because after a while, you reach a point where practice and hitting the books won't make you better, it takes real world painful experience (successes and failures) to get better. And I think the increasing xp required per level reflects that rather well.
Well I am wondering is the XP progression system of 3.5 an intellectual property of wizards of the coast. It seemed to be the most balanced from all the edition till then.
Pretty sure it is. Explicitly stated in their OGL.
You'll also note that you can't find it in their SRD at all.
Director of Games
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If you take the math far enough, you will discover that the entire system is based off a set number of encounters to reach the next level (varying depending on the capmaign advancement type). The xp per monster values scale using a similar formula used during 3.5 to build encounters.
It's complicated, but the math is similar in the end.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
The xp per monster values scale using a similar formula used during 3.5 to build encounters.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
If we used this old way to calculate the XP, is it works ?
http://www.penpaperpixel.org/tools/d20encountercalculator.htm
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Two issues with that. First, under Awarding Experience it states that characters shouldn't get any XP for CRs less than or equal to their average party level-10. So no goblin farming for XP. :)
I'd probably be reducing xp long before CR=APL-10.
In my experience, it doesn't take more than a couple of levels for PCs to become virtually immune to low-CR foes, with natural 20s needed to hit PC AC, save DCs being beaten on 2+, typical damage being irrelevant.
Yet in 3.5, the xp given for CR1 stays at 300, up till PC level 6, leading to bizarre anomalies where the PCs get the same xp for sleepwalking through a half-dozen guards as they get for facing their leader, who KO's half the party, and has the rest on their knees.
I know which of the two battles is a learning experience, and which is not.
I've had to reduce xp in published 3.5 campaigns to keep the party from shooting ahead of the predicted level, including,
- reduced xp for enemies who run away to fight another day (get the rest when you finish them for good),
- a drastic slashing of xp for traps (most have an exaggerated CR, and if the PCs have no time pressure, may as well be CR 0.000001),
- slashing the xp for avoiding encounters (maybe a small RP award, but not raising an alarm should be its own reward. Also the award should be based on the target Sneak DC, not the combat CR of the sentry. Why should you get more xp for avoiding a sleeping minotaur <negative Perception> than an awake kobold <positive Perception>?),
- binning the Leadership feat (lots of simulationist reasons, re verisimilitude, but a major gamist one being 'why should the party gain more xp for bringing more people to the fight?'. Cohorts and alied NPCs are gained when appropriate in-game, and gain a smaller share of the xp <NPC level/PC level>, but this is deducted from the PC xp pool, for having an easier fight).
Give the new xp tables a chance, and see how they affect the actual game. Anything that reduces the temptation to go mook-farming is a plus in my book.
If we used this old way to calculate the XP, is it works ?
http://www.penpaperpixel.org/tools/d20encountercalculator.htm
No. But the good news is that you shouldn't need a calculator at all to calculate XP. Just add up the individual creatures' XP values as stated in Table 12-2, and that's all there is to it.
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The rate of change in the requirement for level up (in thousands) goes 2, 1, 1, 2, 2, 4, 4, 8, 6, 20, 15, 30, 35, 60, 65, 155, 90, 250, 300.Is there a method to this madness? Is there a formula to this? Are the numbers just arbitrary based on the "value" of each particular level? Or is this a goof?
So far, nobody's addressed this issue in the original post.
If you take the math far enough, you will discover that the entire system is based off a set number of encounters to reach the next level (varying depending on the campaign advancement type). The xp per monster values scale using a similar formula used during 3.5 to build encounters.
Jason, is the experience point value of CR 10 creatures less than that of CR 9? Is the experience point value of CR 11 creatures really more than 3 times that of CR10, and less than CR12?
And there are analogous questions about the experience value of CR 16-19 threats.
I'd like a more detailed explanation.
This is one of those situations where we all benefit from a look under the hood. How does it really work, Mr. Bulmahn?
I'd like a more detailed explanation.
This is one of those situations where we all benefit from a look under the hood. How does it really work, Mr. Bulmahn?
Here's the formula for the Medium progression:
F(i) = 2000 * (2^floor(i/2) - 1) + 3000 * (2^floor((i-1)/2) - 1)
where F(i) is the amount of XP needed to reach level "i". It's rounded to two or "two and a half" decimal places.
The Slow progression is roughly 1.5x higher and the Fast progression is roughly 1.5x faster. It equates to 20 encounters per level (with CR=party level) for the Medium chart, 13.3 encounters per level for the Fast chart and 30 encounters per level for the Slow chart.
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I'd like a more detailed explanation.
This is one of those situations where we all benefit from a look under the hood. How does it really work, Mr. Bulmahn?
Here's the formula for the Medium progression:
F(i) = 2000 * (2^floor(i/2) - 1) + 3000 * (2^floor((i-1)/2) - 1)
where F(i) is the amount of XP needed to reach level "i". It's rounded to two or "two and a half" decimal places.
The Slow progression is roughly 1.5x higher and the Fast progression is roughly 1.5x faster. It equates to 20 encounters per level (with CR=party level) for the Medium chart, 13.3 encounters per level for the Fast chart and 30 encounters per level for the Slow chart.
Wow...... well, so much for trade secrets, eh Jason?
Nice math Hogarth.
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Here's the formula for the Medium progression:
F(i) = 2000 * (2^floor(i/2) - 1) + 3000 * (2^floor((i-1)/2) - 1)where F(i) is the amount of XP needed to reach level "i".
Hogarth, I see what you're saying. According to that system, the amount needed to rise from one level to another, in thousands, would be:
1st to 2nd ........... 2000
2nd to 3rd ........... 3000, an increase of 1000 over the previous level
3rd to 4th ........... 4000, an increase of 1000
4th to 5th ........... 6000, an increase of 2000
5th to 6th ........... 8000, an increase of 2000
6th to 7th ......... 12,000, an increase of 4000
7th to 8th ......... 16,000, an increase of 4000
8th to 9th ......... 24,000, an increase of 8000
9th to 10th ....... 32,000, an increase of 8000
10th to 11th ..... 48,000, an increase of 16,000
11th to 12th ..... 64,000, an increase of 16,000
12th to 13th ..... 96,000, an increase of 32,000
13th to 14th ... 128,000, an increase of 32,000
14th to 15th ... 192,000, an increase of 64,000
15th to 16th ... 256,000, an increase of 64,000
16th to 17th ... 384,000, an increase of 128,000
17th to 18th ... 512,000, an increase of 128,000
18th to 19th ... 768,000, an increase of 256,000
19th to 20th . 1,024,000, an increase of 256,000
The discrepancies noted in the original post are coming from rounding errors. (For example, without any rounding, a character would need 107 K experience to reach 10th level. Jason "rounded" that to 105 K.)
Here's the formula for the Medium progression:
F(i) = 2000 * (2^floor(i/2) - 1) + 3000 * (2^floor((i-1)/2) - 1)
where F(i) is the amount of XP needed to reach level "i". It's rounded to two or "two and a half" decimal places.
The Slow progression is roughly 1.5x higher and the Fast progression is roughly 1.5x faster. It equates to 20 encounters per level (with CR=party level) for the Medium chart, 13.3 encounters per level for the Fast chart and 30 encounters per level for the Slow chart.
Aha. It's the "rounding" that throws it off then. Without rounding, the formula matches the chart up to 9th level. From 10th onwards the chart rounds to the nearest(?) 5000.
Over the career of a 20th level character it works out that the rounding only costs you an extra 21,000 points. Some levels (10th, 13th, 15th, 16th, 18th and 19th) you gain faster than the formula would allow. To get to 17th and 20th though you need 26000 more points each than the formula dictates, and there's a handful of other levels that need a thousand or two more.
Without the rounding the rate of change also matches the XP per CR. Starting with 2nd-3rd, in thousands: 1,1,2,2,4,4,8,8,16,16,32,32... etc.
I'm tempted to provide my DM with a "corrected" chart, but I dunno if it's worth it. Even at the biggest delays, that's only an extra 1-2 encounters. Still, the anal-retentive side of me wants it all to work out evenly.... :D
Edit: Partially ninja'd, nice summary Chris.
Here's the formula for the Medium progression:
F(i) = 2000 * (2^floor(i/2) - 1) + 3000 * (2^floor((i-1)/2) - 1)where F(i) is the amount of XP needed to reach level "i".
Hogarth, I see what you're saying. According to that system, the amount needed to rise from one level to another, in thousands, would be:
1st to 2nd ........... 2000
2nd to 3rd ........... 3000, an increase of 1000 over the previous level
3rd to 4th ........... 4000, an increase of 1000
4th to 5th ........... 6000, an increase of 2000
5th to 6th ........... 8000, an increase of 2000
6th to 7th ......... 12,000, an increase of 4000
7th to 8th ......... 16,000, an increase of 4000
8th to 9th ......... 24,000, an increase of 8000
9th to 10th ....... 32,000, an increase of 8000
10th to 11th ..... 48,000, an increase of 16,000
11th to 12th ..... 64,000, an increase of 16,000
12th to 13th ..... 96,000, an increase of 32,000
13th to 14th ... 128,000, an increase of 32,000
14th to 15th ... 192,000, an increase of 64,000
15th to 16th ... 256,000, an increase of 64,000
16th to 17th ... 384,000, an increase of 128,000
17th to 18th ... 512,000, an increase of 128,000
18th to 19th ... 768,000, an increase of 256,000
19th to 20th . 1,024,000, an increase of 256,000The discrepancies noted in the original post are coming from rounding errors. (For example, without any rounding, a character would need 107 K experience to reach 10th level. Jason "rounded" that to 105 K.)
Nice write up Chris... YOu might want to offer that up, over at the PF Database as an optional XP chart.
You guys are so smart. You totally resolved this entire issue using math.
THIS IS AWESOME.
Now, there are some other threads about bards, clerics, and barbarians I wish you'd visit.
Hmm, I think I'll add that in as one of the advancement options in my XLS character sheet...
Thanks!