While it isn't specifically called such, I would treat Smite damage as Precision damage, which is not multiplied for a crit.
As the title says does a smite evil get multiplyed on a critical hit and where in the Pfrpg book does it mention this.
I believe it works like it did in 3rd: Extra +X damage is multiplied, extra +XdX damage doesn't.
Ah yes... the iconic, scythe-wielding, smite paladin... the Prim Reaper! Brings new meaning to the term Death Metal.
I've no idea if there is special text about this particular ability because I'm still plugging my way through the rulebook but it looks like the smite damage would be multiplied.
As the title says does a smite evil get multiplyed on a critical hit and where in the Pfrpg book does it mention this.
I agree that this damage should NOT be multiplied.
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Exception: Precision damage (such as from a rogue's sneak attack class feature) and additional damage dice from special weapon qualities (such as flaming) are not multiplied when you score a critical hit.
Precision damage, like a rogue's sneak attack, and extra damage dice, like the Flaming magic quality, or dice gained from Vital Strike are never multiplied.
Other static (non-dice) modifiers, such as that gained by smite evil, are indeed multiplied on a critical.
Some may argue with this, but unfortunately Precision Damage is never really defined. In every case it is mentioned in the PRPG it is referencing sneak attack, except for a single instance where it also mentions the duelist's precise strike ability (feel free to do a search for the word 'precision' in the PDF if you don't believe me). It never mentions Favored Enemies, Smite Evil, etc., so one can only conclude that it does not include them (especially since those class features don't mention relying on precision either).
This is one of the things I believe many DMs will house rule. I am here only to comment on the RAW.
Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys
In 3.5 I believe the Sage somewhere sometime confirmed that smite is multiplied on a critical. No big whoop back then...now, however, I believe a ruling by Mr. Buhlman is in order as he is now the defacto Pathfinder Sage.
In 3.5 I believe the Sage somewhere sometime confirmed that smite is multiplied on a critical. No big whoop back then...now, however, I believe a ruling by Mr. Buhlman is in order as he is now the defacto Pathfinder Sage.
Unless something in the rules has changed, no new ruling is needed.
Let us not forget that in Beta, the (updated Beta version) bonus damage vs. evil outsiders was 1d6 and everyone complained that this was unfair because a paladin who critted an evil orc would do more Smite damage than a paladin who critted an evil outsider demon (because of that whole multiplying +x damage but not multiplying +xd6 damage).
So the Paizo guys fixed it by removing the d6 and making it a flat bonus, specifically so that it could be multiplied on a crit.
I think that says enough for me. The rules specify that it should be multiplied and Paizo made the change specifically so that it would be multiplied. Good enough for me.
Let us not forget that in Beta, the (updated Beta version) bonus damage vs. evil outsiders was 1d6 and everyone complained that this was unfair because a paladin who critted an evil orc would do more Smite damage than a paladin who critted an evil outsider demon (because of that whole multiplying +x damage but not multiplying +xd6 damage).
So the Paizo guys fixed it by removing the d6 and making it a flat bonus, specifically so that it could be multiplied on a crit.
I think that says enough for me. The rules specify that it should be multiplied and Paizo made the change specifically so that it would be multiplied. Good enough for me.
They do?
I mean, I could go either way on this, my previous post was my gut-instinct answer. The other side has been well presented, but as far as I know it is NOT specified in the rules, or we wouldn't even be discussing it, other than to point to a page. (IOW, if you can point to a page, please do so and we can call this a done deal.)
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In my post above, you should see that I did quote the text. Everything is multiplied on a critical hit except:
1. Additional damage dice.
2. Precision-based damage (the only examples of which are sneak attack damage and duelist's precise strike damage).
Precision-based damage is not found anywhere in Smite Evil, nor does the definition of precision-based damage (the lack thereof, rather) ever mention smite evil.
Thus, it is multiplied.
Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys
In 3.5 flat bonuses were multiplied and bonus DICE were not.
The "precision damage" phrase seems to be unfortunately clumsy, but the examples all reference bonus dice. I see no reason to infer that anything has changed.
Not to be difficult but you didn't quote, you interpreted. Now, if you could show me where to read it myself, I'd be grateful.
As I said, I'm mostly convinced that you are right, I just want to read it myself.
The "Critical Hits" section of the combat rules.
Every damage bonus is multiplied except those specifically listed in the Exception.
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In my initial response, I did quote. I quoted this.
Exception: Precision damage (such as from a rogue's sneak attack class feature) and additional damage dice from special weapon qualities (such as flaming) are not multiplied when you score a critical hit.
You can find it in the Combat chapter, under Critical Hits.
Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys
My good lord Nethys was referencing the text in the Combat Chapter about multiplying damage, here extracted from the PRD.
Multiplying Damage: Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results.
Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage. So if you are asked to double the damage twice, the end result is three times the normal damage.
Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon's normal damage are never multiplied.
It also surely slipped my lord's mind that in fact at least one class feature is specifically called out as not being part of the "precision damage" paradigm. Ranger Favored Enemy, perhaps the most likely to be called precision, is mentioned in the Manyshot feat.
Apply precision-based damage (such as sneak attack) and critical hit damage only once for this attack. Damage bonuses from using a composite bow with a high Strength bonus apply to each arrow, as do other damage bonuses, such as a ranger's favored enemy bonus.
I personally see no reason that channeling the "powers of good" would be precision damage, any more than say, weapon specialization.
Smite damage is multiplied on critical hits, per the standard rule, with no exception mentioned.
Majuba - Acolyte of Nethys
In my initial response, I did quote. I quoted this.
Exception: Precision damage (such as from a rogue's sneak attack class feature) and additional damage dice from special weapon qualities (such as flaming) are not multiplied when you score a critical hit.You can find it in the Combat chapter, under Critical Hits.
Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys
So you did, my apologies. I had assumed the quote was of the original question so I didn't read it.
Thanks.
Could we get a Paizo employee to confirm that Smites are multiplied on Crits and with lances?
Page 179 says they do but one of my fellow players is denying it
The dispute is not per se the multiplication on a critical, it is the multiplication with a lance, on a horse, while charging.
A lance does double damage when charging.
A lance does double damage on horseback.
This means it does 1d8 *3, so 3d8 damage.
The question is do you add the bonus challenge damage to the lance at the start, so 1d8 + 14, then multiply by 3, or do you calculate it as 3d8 + 14. The difference is huge. 3d8 + 42 vs. 3d8 + 14.
If you want to interpret the letter of the damage, it states that the strength bonus is added to the damage result, not the damage dice.
Does charging with a lance on a horse triple all damage, or just triple the damage done by the lance itself?
The cavalier text states that:
Once per day, a cavalier can challenge a foe to combat. As a swift action, the cavalier chooses one target within sight to challenge. The cavalier’s melee attacks deal extra damage whenever the attacks are made against the target of his challenge. This extra damage is equal to the cavalier’s level. The cavalier can use this ability once per day at 1st level, plus one additional time per day for every three levels beyond 1st, to a maximum of seven times per day at 19th level.
Why is this being multiplied 3x by charging with a lance on a horse? It should be added to the damage done at the end. It could be doubled on a critical hit, but not tripled (the +9 per damage dice) then doubled again (on the critical hit). It should be +9 damage to the total damage result at the end of the roll, then if there is a critical hit doubled to 18. It should not in my opinion be calculated as +27 damage, doubled to +54 damage.
The dispute is not per se the multiplication on a critical, it is the multiplication with a lance, on a horse, while charging.A lance does double damage when charging.
A lance does double damage on horseback.
Not quite. It deals double damage from spirited charge, the feat, not just because its on horseback. Horseback enables the lance to be wielded in one hand.
This means it does 1d8 *3, so 3d8 damage.The question is do you add the bonus challenge damage to the lance at the start, so 1d8 + 14, then multiply by 3, or do you calculate it as 3d8 + 14. The difference is huge. 3d8 + 42 vs. 3d8 + 14.
Its 3d8 + 42. Charging from horseback fighters are one of the best damage dealing options for melee types. The problem is keeping your horse alive.
If you want to interpret the letter of the damage, it states that the strength bonus is added to the damage result, not the damage dice.
No it does not state that.
Multiplying Damage: Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results.
That says quite clearly and plainly that the strength and challenge bonuses, being a flat number and not a die, are added before multiplitcation. Moral of the story: don't stand where the guy with a lance can charge you.
Why is this being multiplied 3x by charging with a lance on a horse? It should be added to the damage done at the end. It could be doubled on a critical hit, but not tripled (the +9 per damage dice) then doubled again (on the critical hit). It should be +9 damage to the total damage result at the end of the roll, then if there is a critical hit doubled to 18. It should not in my opinion be calculated as +27 damage, doubled to +54 damage.
It might not be your opinion on how it should be but it is the rules as they are. That's how it works, clearly and unequivocally.I'm unsure what meaning of should you're trying to apply here.
Multiplying Damage: Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results.
Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage. So if you are asked to double the damage twice, the end result is three times the normal damage.
say a Lance deals 1d8 +5 damage
Charging from the back of a mount= Double damage= 2d8 +10
Charging from the back of a mount AND has the spirited charge feat= Triple damage= 3d8 +15
Quintuple damage = Charging from the back of a mount AND has the spirited charge feat AND scores a crit with a lance (a lance is an X 3 weapon)= 5d8 + 25 (edited as per RD's observation)
Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage. So if you are asked to double the damage twice, the end result is three times the normal damage.say a Lance deals 1d8 +5 damage
Charging from the back of a mount= Double damage= 2d8 +10
Charging from the back of a mount AND has the spirited charge feat= Triple damage= 3d8 +15
Sixtuple damage = Charging from the back of a mount AND has the spirited charge feat AND scores a crit with a lance (a lance is an X 3 weapon)= 6d8 + 30
Does your first paragraph not contradict your last sentence?
A x3 multiplier (spirited charge with a lance) plus a x3 multiplier equals a x5 multiplier in D&D math, does it not?
Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage. So if you are asked to double the damage twice, the end result is three times the normal damage.say a Lance deals 1d8 +5 damage
Charging from the back of a mount= Double damage= 2d8 +10
Charging from the back of a mount AND has the spirited charge feat= Triple damage= 3d8 +15
Sixtuple damage = Charging from the back of a mount AND has the spirited charge feat AND scores a crit with a lance (a lance is an X 3 weapon)= 6d8 + 30
Does your first paragraph not contradict your last sentence?
A x3 multiplier (spirited charge with a lance) plus a x3 multiplier equals a x5 multiplier in D&D math, does it not?
DOh.. you're right. I hate mixing D&D and real math...
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A x3 multiplier and a x3 multiplier is inded a x5 multiplier.
Smite damage is absolutely multiplied on a critical hit. It's not precision damage, it's extra damage much like Power Attack.
That is my opinion as well, but the Book is terrible at specifying what is or is not multiplied, under the Equipment qualities Section it states that only Weapon damage is multiplied, and it can be (and currently is being)argued that Smites are not Weapon Damage, but this is later Contradicted in the Combat Section under Multiplying Damage.
so we are at a Stalemate
A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is ×2.
Exception: Precision damage (such as from a rogue's sneak attack class feature) and additional damage dice from special weapon qualities (such as flaming) are not multiplied when you score a critical hit.
See also:
A x3 multiplier and a x3 multiplier is inded a x5 multiplier.
Smite damage is absolutely multiplied on a critical hit. It's not precision damage, it's extra damage much like Power Attack.
That is my opinion as well, but the Book is terrible at specifying what is or is not multiplied, under the Equipment qualities Section it states that only Weapon damage is multiplied, and it can be (and currently is being)argued that Smites are not Weapon Damage, but this is later Contributed in the Combat Section under Multiplying Damage.
so we are at a Stalemate
Except it IS all weapon damage, very much in the same way that an arcane trickster sneak attacking you with scorching ray is dealing all fire damage.
The game designers for both D&D and Pathfinder have clarified this. Those still arguing that only weapon damage dice is multiplied are either ignorant or have an agenda.
This is the sentence from the section on Critical Hits:
"A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together."
So all the usual bonuses for that paladin that is smiting would be part of that. The exception is two sentences later that specifically states that additional damage dice are not multiplied.
From the paladin smite (emphasis mine):
"If this target is evil, the paladin adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack rolls and adds her paladin level to all damage rolls made against the target of her smite. If the target of smite evil is an outsider with the evil subtype, an evil-aligned dragon, or an undead creature, the bonus to damage on the first successful attack increases to 2 points of damage per level the paladin possesses."
The smite ability is bonus damage. It is added to all damage rolls against the target of the smite. Critical hits are just rolling the damage several times.
Also, the full description of how critical hits work from the combat chapter should take precedence over the quick explanation of critical multipliers in the equipment chapter. That description isn't suppose to go into details, and doesn't specifically contradict the explanation in the combat chapter of critical hits.
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This is the sentence from the section on Critical Hits:
"A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together."
So all the usual bonuses for that paladin that is smiting would be part of that. The exception is two sentences later that specifically states that additional damage dice are not multiplied.
From the paladin smite (emphasis mine):
"If this target is evil, the paladin adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack rolls and adds her paladin level to all damage rolls made against the target of her smite. If the target of smite evil is an outsider with the evil subtype, an evil-aligned dragon, or an undead creature, the bonus to damage on the first successful attack increases to 2 points of damage per level the paladin possesses."The smite ability is bonus damage. It is added to all damage rolls against the target of the smite. Critical hits are just rolling the damage several times.
Yep - it also means that precision damage from the duelist is added several times, but that sneak attack dice are not.
Yep - it also means that precision damage from the duelist is added several times, but that sneak attack dice are not.This is the sentence from the section on Critical Hits:
"A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together."
So all the usual bonuses for that paladin that is smiting would be part of that. The exception is two sentences later that specifically states that additional damage dice are not multiplied.
From the paladin smite (emphasis mine):
"If this target is evil, the paladin adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack rolls and adds her paladin level to all damage rolls made against the target of her smite. If the target of smite evil is an outsider with the evil subtype, an evil-aligned dragon, or an undead creature, the bonus to damage on the first successful attack increases to 2 points of damage per level the paladin possesses."The smite ability is bonus damage. It is added to all damage rolls against the target of the smite. Critical hits are just rolling the damage several times.
Why would the duelist's precision damage be multiplied? It is actually called Precise Strike. You can't get a better description of the additional damage than actually calling it precise. The sentence about precision based damage not being multiplied gives the rogue's sneak attack as an example but it is not the only precision based damage.
Yes, the game should clearly label something precision based or not. Personally, I don't find it all that difficult. My general rule of thumb is that additional damage dice from abilities is precision based damage. That may not always hold true but it's where I start. They all use similar wording to sneak attack.
Actually, looking at the description of Precise Strike, it does not in fact define it as precision damage. It describes what it can and cannot effect, but does not state that it is precision damage. I would say that as it's a flat bonus and not damage dice as are all the other examples of non-multiplied damage, it multiplies (and it's hardly broken if it does, to be fair, it just about keeps the Duelist up with more robust fighters in terms of damage output).
Normally precision damage is not affective against monster immune to sneak attacks and crits so I would agree that the duelist ability is precision damage.
I would also agree that Paizo finally make a definition of precision damage and state in no uncertain terms that flat damage gets multiplied on crits and multiple dice does not unless specifically stated otherwise.
Actually, looking at the description of Precise Strike, it does not in fact define it as precision damage. It describes what it can and cannot effect, but does not state that it is precision damage. I would say that as it's a flat bonus and not damage dice as are all the other examples of non-multiplied damage, it multiplies (and it's hardly broken if it does, to be fair, it just about keeps the Duelist up with more robust fighters in terms of damage output).
Skipping the fact that Precise is the root of Precision, how is the duelist's Precise Strike not additional damage dice? You roll xd6. That is the exact definition of additional damage dice. It is not a static bonus.
At least we're not talking about the paladin as he was put out the door.
Being a bit late in the errata I had a group dish out over 900 damage thanks to Aura of Justice at 12th level against a spiked devil in about two rounds. All because that damage bonus was doubled on every attack instead of just the first.
All I can imagine is a Paladin's mount with ride-by-attack and spring attack doing a spirited charge on an evil outsider every round. It may be really ridiculous, but that's what putting your devil lord out with an entourage of mooks helps to avoid.
But yes, +xdx damage is not multiplied on critical hits, while +x damage is. The cavalier, paladin, fighter and ranger all multiply their +x bonus to damage class features/feats when they score a critical hit.
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You're thinking 3.5 duelist Bob. Pathfinder Duelist adds his Duelist level as Precise Strike damage.Actually, looking at the description of Precise Strike, it does not in fact define it as precision damage. It describes what it can and cannot effect, but does not state that it is precision damage. I would say that as it's a flat bonus and not damage dice as are all the other examples of non-multiplied damage, it multiplies (and it's hardly broken if it does, to be fair, it just about keeps the Duelist up with more robust fighters in terms of damage output).Skipping the fact that Precise is the root of Precision, how is the duelist's Precise Strike not additional damage dice? You roll xd6. That is the exact definition of additional damage dice. It is not a static bonus.
I stand corrected, you're right. This damage is multiplied on a critical hit then since it's not additional damage dice.
I think we've hit agreement on this one then - dice don't get multiplied, flat bonuses do. Nice and simple, no if buts or maybes.
I think we've hit agreement on this one then - dice don't get multiplied, flat bonuses do. Nice and simple, no if buts or maybes.
That's something I can get behind. Its not perfect, but its simple an delegant and leaves no room for confusion which makes it as close to perfect as we're likely to get.