I have a situation in my game which I was curious how others would rule on this. I have a player character that was hit with a Prismatic Spray (violet) and sent to another plane. I had not yet rolled or chosen which plane of existence he was on when it returned to his turn. At which point he announced that he was going to cast the spell, “Banishment” on himself. There by sending himself back to his home plane of existence.
My first instinct was to say no way, but he made a few good arguments.
1. I wasn’t sure he could target himself with this spell or with dismissal? The spell reads Target - One or more extraplanar creatures – which he stated that he was now currently one – being on a different plane.
2. If he could target himself would it “banish” him from the current plane he was on to his home plane?
3. Or would it default to Dismissal and have a 20% chance of ending up on a different plane? (which then we rolled a 13%) He then argued that “Banishment” spell was a more powerful version of Dismissal and didn’t have the 20% mischance listed and therefore shouldn’t be accounted for.
Any one else have thoughts on this situation?
We joked about this in our current LoF campaign and the DM ruled that it would work. (Banishing yourself home)
YMMV
OK, was going to post this in the other thread, but I'll do it here...
On the subject of banishment (and the question at hand here about the wrong plane chance)...
Is Banishment a higher level version of Dismissal, or is it a seperate spell entirely?
Banishment says its a more powerful version of Dismissal. Disissal has a chance to send a creature to the wrong plane, and no restriction that you be on your home plance.
So my question is...is Banishment a more target restricted multitarget version of Dismissal with a guarantee it goes where its supposed to, or is it a multitarget dismissal with an added effect and removed off target chance and some odd flavor text?
This is assuming of course, that dismissal itself doesn't have an ommision of requiring the caster to be on their home plane.
"By the rules", no he probably couldn't.
However, if that is the best method to get the PC back into play, then by all means let it work... then have a Gawdly Agent show up and "explain" why it was that the sorry berk's spell was permitted, or something.
(Sorry about the posting problem - first time on boards)
But I see that it wasn't just me missreading the rules, but that it seems to be a common gray area. I wish it were a little more detailed in its use.
By the rules, he couldn't banish himelf, as he's not a native of the plane he's casting it on. However, he could conceivably pen a scroll of Banishment and hire some native of the plane to use it on him.
Or the DM could just allow him a spellcraft check to use it as a non-native member of the plane to send himself back to his home plane.
Or just make a Spellcraft Check to cast it from normal spell-slots...
Not exactly 100% in the rules, but makes as much sense as trying to bypass them thru using a Scroll...
this should work without a doubt
Extraplanar Subtype - pathfinder SRD
This subtype is applied to any creature when it is on a plane other than its native plane. A creature that travels the planes can gain or lose this subtype as it goes from plane to plane. Monster entries assume that encounters with creatures take place on the Material Plane, and every creature whose native plane is not the Material Plane has the extraplanar subtype (but would not have it when on its home plane). Every extraplanar creature in this book has a home plane mentioned in its description. creatures not labeled as extraplanar are natives of the Material Plane, and they gain the extraplanar subtype if they leave the Material Plane. No creature has the extraplanar subtype when it is on a transitive plane, such as the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, or the Plane of Shadow.
Banishment -
Targets one or more extraplanar creatures, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
this would be like saying a caster could cast haste and not be able to have it affect himself
One problem, dartagnan4: the spell lets you force out extraplanar creatures while on your home plane. No one is debating that this guy is extraplanar, wherever he ended up, but by being extraplanar he can't be on his home plane. Since banishment will only work when you're standing on your home plane, you cannot by default banish yourself, ever.
Banishment wouldn't work since you can only force creatures out of your home plane with it. But Dismissal would work since it does not have that restriction, of course it does have the 20% chance of sending the target to somewhere else than it's home plane.
If he had a scroll of it, maybe he could make a Use Magic Device check to imitate a native of the plane he's on (since UMD is usually used for imitating class, alignment, etc).
But then because he UMD'd himself into a native, he just UMD'd himself out of being valid target.
The home plane bit is just fluff text--I would not pay it heed.
However, the issue is that Banishment is explicitly a more powerful version of Dismissal. It does not change anything about Dismissal except that it works on a certain HD of extraplanar creatures rather than just one and you can use banes to help. It does not change the 20% chance to send them to their home plane--the point is to get the extraplanar out of there, afterall, sending it home is just a side effect.
So, I would say he could cast it on himself, but had a 20% chance to go to a different plane anyway.
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But then because he UMD'd himself into a native, he just UMD'd himself out of being valid target.
No he'd still BE a valid target he'd just faked it well enough to use the scroll. UMD does not change your class, alignment, etc. it just lets you use stuff that has those requirements.
Many spells assume that you will be casting them on someone else. I think that this is one of those cases. If he wants to get creative, then maybe he could climb into his bag of holding and cast it on his familiar who can then open the bag when he get's home.
I love the idea of using a spell in a non-conventional way that doesn't break the game and actually adds to the fun.
Oddly Dismissal should work, but Banishment should not. Banishment specifically says "your home plane" Dismissal isn't so specific
But then because he UMD'd himself into a native, he just UMD'd himself out of being valid target.No he'd still BE a valid target he'd just faked it well enough to use the scroll. UMD does not change your class, alignment, etc. it just lets you use stuff that has those requirements.
But he has "tricked" the scroll into thinking that he is a native. For the purposes of casting the spell he counts as a native. Picking targets is part of casting the spell. Therefore he is a native for purposes of picking targets. This is akin to an outsider UMD'ing enlarge person to work on themselves.
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I say yes because it's a legitimately clever idea and clever ideas should be rewarded, not punished.
No one's actually quoted the text yet?
Targets one or more extraplanar creatures, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
A banishment spell is a more powerful version of the dismissal spell. It enables you to force extraplanar creatures out of your home plane. As many as 2 Hit Dice of creatures per caster level can be banished.
Target one extraplanar creature
This spell forces an extraplanar creature back to its proper plane if it fails a Will save. If the spell is successful, the creature is instantly whisked away, but there is a 20% chance of actually sending the subject to a plane other than its own.
Given that dismissal has nothing about home plane in the description, and banishment is a more powerful version of it, it works as dismissal except as altered by its own text. Unfortunately, that text puts a hit die limit on it which dismissal didn't have, which muddies the waters. Dismissal could technically let a 7th level cleric banish a 40 HD demigod. Banishment can't. Therefore, it's possible that it also only works on your home plane.
Personally, I'd say that because it enables you to do that, doesn't mean it requires you to do that, so you could ignore that section and cast it while you're not on your home plane against something else that isn't on its home plane. And you'd be a valid target for that if you were on another plane. Plus, it's really clever, and I like clever uses for spells.
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But he has "tricked" the scroll into thinking that he is a native. For the purposes of casting the spell he counts as a native. Picking targets is part of casting the spell. Therefore he is a native for purposes of picking targets. This is akin to an outsider UMD'ing enlarge person to work on themselves.
UMD tricks the vessel not the arcane energies within the vessel. This is a scroll not a wondrous item. Once the spell is cast the spell functions per the normal rules UMD just allows someone who could not normally USE the scroll it to use it. This is a weird corner case though that would have to fall under GM discretion so YMMV.
**edit**
Personally, I'd say that because it enables you to do that, doesn't mean it requires you to do that, so you could ignore that section and cast it while you're not on your home plane against something else that isn't on its home plane. And you'd be a valid target for that if you were on another plane. Plus, it's really clever, and I like clever uses for spells.
Enables. Good word and it clears this up some.
Since the spell description is a little ambiguous, I'd err on the side of cool and let the player go ahead with his clever idea.
as many said: RAW it doesn't work as either he isn't on his homeplane or he isn't extraplanar.
But Houserule as you want, if he got on the wrong plane by being unlucky with rolling, and this would otherwise trigger a whole sidequest that only he has to make, then let him banish himself.
If he's got another spell, or an easy solution (next town has a wizard who asks money for it, but offers it), then stick with RAW as it was his risk (if I understood the scenario correctly).
Edit: he could cast dismissal on himself, as banishment says it's a stronger version, this could hint that RAW is not RAI, thus it is intended to work.
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So, per RAW, if the party is adventuring in one of the outer planes, and a demon somehow gets summoned/gated in (not native to that plane), they are unable to banish said demon since they are not natives of that plane either?
but they could use the lower powered version of the spell? I think that there is an error in one of the two spells descriptions somewhere.
I think that the wording in the banishment spell is flavor text and rule as intended would be that banishment would work as a more powerful version of dismissal. I do agree that there would still be the 20% chance to go to a different plane.
But he has "tricked" the scroll into thinking that he is a native. For the purposes of casting the spell he counts as a native. Picking targets is part of casting the spell. Therefore he is a native for purposes of picking targets. This is akin to an outsider UMD'ing enlarge person to work on themselves.UMD tricks the vessel not the arcane energies within the vessel. This is a scroll not a wondrous item. Once the spell is cast the spell functions per the normal rules UMD just allows someone who could not normally USE the scroll it to use it. This is a weird corner case though that would have to fall under GM discretion so YMMV
[citation needed]
Nope, there would be no such precedent because UMD clearly says magic device that you are you using. Since you are not the one using the hold person wand, you do not get to make a UMD check.
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Nope, there would be no such precedent because UMD clearly says magic device that you are you using. Since you are not the one using the hold person wand, you do not get to make a UMD check.
You are still changing the intent of UMD.
A minotaur who picks up a wand of enlarge person doesn't get a UMD roll to use it on himself . . . He can get a UMD roll to use it on a alternate valid target but not himself. He's not a valid target of the spell.
Again this is a corner case situation and GMs may rule differently.
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[citation needed]
"Citation needed" goes both ways. How about you show us where UMD says it fools the item in absolutely every respect then? My statement was one of interpretation just as your arguments are of interpretation. If the books were clear and cite-able on this subject we'd not be having this debate.