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Was just reading over Crucible of Freya, remembered the Ulfen, and this crossed my mind.
Would they take the popular culture route and go with winged horses, or would they go back to their roots and go with wolves? Also, would they be outsiders or fey?
I'm trying to think of the god that would fit them most as well. They've been CG traditionally, haven't they? Desna doesn't really seem to work, and Cayden is way too young(though he may have drawn a few to his service by now).
Gorum seems to be the one to go to, though this would mean Golarion's valkyrie would be lean much more heavily towards the revelry of war.
I guess if the traditional alignment was loosened for them(or if I'm remembering it wrong anyway), Torag and Iomedae would work. We know there are some "valkyrie-like" dwarves out there already(mean ones too).
I dont see why Cayden wouldnt be able to have them. I dont recall the alignment at the moment either so I cant really help much there.
Although if more than one deity has access to them couldnt that be the basis for having winged horse or wolf both available. Just split them to different bosses.
I'm voting for wolf-riding valkyries. Way cooler than a flying horse.
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Ignoring the original D&D alignment, I'd picture Golarion 'choosers of the slain' being servants of Pharasma tasked with hunting down those that have attempted to cheat fate (via ressurection or undeadification, which would only apply in special cases, as the Pharasman clergy would admit that some people were *fated* to be resurrected, or become undead...).
While winged horses or wolves would be neat, combining the two and having them ride horse-sized winged dire wolves could look cool.
Or, play off a Morrigan riff and have them ride giant ravens (or simply be accompanied by swarms of ravens).
Pretty much any god might have their honored fallen collected by valkyrie-like entities, celestial or fiendish, or, in the case of Desna or Groetus, alien and otherworldly... (An 'angel' of Desna that resembled the flurrery luminescent butterfly-like alien ships from The Abyss would be evocative as all heck!)
Creative Director
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I personally like the idea of valkyries on wolves. Maybe even winged wolves. Part of that is because I'm kind of bored with horses, and part of it is that going back to the original roots for things is always cool, especially if those original roots are so different than common modern perception.
At the same time, it can be good to retain that common modern perception. It's not an easy choice.
As for which god the valkyries will be associated with... my first gut feeling before doing any research into what valkyries were would be to make them minions of Gorum. That way we can have CG valkyries but we can also have CN or even CE valkyries.
Gorum!! Gorum needs Valkyries! And wolves are perfect for the Gorum worshipping tribes of Orcs and such in the the Cinderlands. Orcs would not have blond babes on horses. Nice evil she orcs on wolves, perfect!
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... but we can also have CN or even CE valkyries.
Makes for interesting interpretations of the 'honored dead'.
Let not any of these fallen enter the Golden Halls
Unless he hath raped and pillaged in the southlands ...'
Maybe each type of valkyrie (CG, CN, CE) can have thier own type of mount. Say horses for CG, wolves for CE and ever changing (molting ?) linnorms for CN.
(and I'm all for swarms of ravens in tow ...)
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I personally like the idea of valkyries on wolves. Maybe even winged wolves. Part of that is because I'm kind of bored with horses, and part of it is that going back to the original roots for things is always cool, especially if those original roots are so different than common modern perception.
At the same time, it can be good to retain that common modern perception. It's not an easy choice.
As for which god the valkyries will be associated with... my first gut feeling before doing any research into what valkyries were would be to make them minions of Gorum. That way we can have CG valkyries but we can also have CN or even CE valkyries.
Heh, if you're going for winged wolves why stop there?
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Heh, if you're going for winged wolves why stop there?
They can turn into giant battling robot-paladins too? Awesome!
\m/
Why is the AL in question? It was those who died in honorable that were allowed into Valhalla, so I'm mostly thinking LN for the pretty Reapers on wolves.
I'm all for their riding large wolves (no wings, possibly capable of flight).
Valkyries, in D&D, have traditionally been Chaotic good. Now, there is a precedence for D&D Chaotic neutral valkyries, and the most likely god to use them is Chaotic neutral. I've go no problem with "any Chaotic."
I'm not sure why the mount has to be an either or thing, especially given that we're talking about traditionally chaotic beings. Why not say that valkyries often ride on a pegasus or a flying dire wolf and let it be up to the GM/Adventure writer to determine what's best in a given storyline?
Put me down for lupine mounts.
Maybe each type of valkyrie (CG, CN, CE) can have thier own type of mount. Say horses for CG, wolves for CE and ever changing (molting ?) linnorms for CN.
(and I'm all for swarms of ravens in tow ...)
I was gonna originally chime in for valkyries as winged centaurs, but I really like the multiple alignments/mounts and ravens ideas much better.
Any god will likely have psychopomps for their favored dead, and give them a preferred form. Since most souls reach the afterlife via the River of Souls, I suppose the escort is expensive of resources, and so is reserved for souls the god really wants to see: psychopomps were guides and guardians, implying that the journey to the afterlife could be dangerous (and we know it is, since astradaemons prey on the River of Souls) or uncertain (giving rise to tales of wandering, confused souls). The prospect of a psychopomp escort is thus a reward for a well-lived life.
Whether a god's psychopomps are personally-crafted, or recruited from among the ranks of local exemplars, may affect how consistent their form is.
Divorced from the Norse gods, valkyries in their traditional form would be suitable for any deity with the War domain, and possibly others that concern themselves with battle. I also think the wolves are cool, but I'd lay off the wings -- they can simply pace the sky. Perhaps the animal differs by god. Iomedae's valkyries might ride celestial horses of the type paladins use for companions, and Gorum's wolves. Torag's, if he has them, probably walk just fine, thank you. Besides, their favored souls are headed down this way, grab your pick, lad...
Urgathoa's might ride ravens, although she may simply send astradaemons or thanodaemons to collect her prizes. Still, her form is obviously based on Hel, who didn't command any valkyries; she may just take them as they come.
In many religions the psychopomps were what would be petitioners in Pathfinder! Spirits of animals were quite common, as were the spirits of ancestors. Doubtless Desna's favored souls are escorted to Cynosure in a cloud of butterflies. Taking such a form is easy for azatas, of course, who may be happy to elect to serve. Perhaps Erastil honors the founders of a great family line, or those who much improve a lineage, by promoting them to a celestial status distinct from archons, giving them the basic abilities of a psychopomp: the ability to reform if killed off-plane, plane shift (in ethereal form) to the site of pickups, and carry other souls to and from his domain, probably along with protective powers.
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I was gonna originally chime in for valkyries as winged centaurs, but I really like the multiple alignments/mounts and ravens ideas much better.
(and I'm all for swarms of ravens in tow ...)
You just gave me Shining Force flashbacks. I'm grateful for that and thus support winged centaur-like creatures turning up somewhere.
And yeah, I'd love to see a Morrigan/raven riff as well somewhere.
I wonder if Morrigan would fall somewhere between Gorum and Pharasma with regard to demeanor, purpose, and goals?
Jem is my new friend, for posting about psychopomps.
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Urgathoa's might ride ravens, although she may simply send astradaemons or thanodaemons to collect her prizes. Still, her form is obviously based on Hel, who didn't command any valkyries; she may just take them as they come.
Scavenger beasts (carrion crows, vultures and hyenas, although, because of Lamashtu, hyena might be out) and giant insects (or swarms of insects) seem the most appropriate for Urgathoa. A swarm of blue-black, purple-black and green-black bottle-flies, that coalesce into a zombie-like maiden in rotting fineries who has beetle-like characteristics like insect eyes and clacking mandibles (and extra skeletally thin arms that end in pincers), might make a fine 'chooser of the slain' for Urgathoa.
Personally, I think once you start moving away from choosing the valorous dead that died a glorious death in battle, you are talking about something completely different than a valkyrie. I really don't picture, for example, Urgathoa having a valkyrie.
I'd rather Valkyries just stick to "Viking-ish" gods.
Personally, I think once you start moving away from choosing the valorous dead that died a glorious death in battle, you are talking about something completely different than a valkyrie. I really don't picture, for example, Urgathoa having a valkyrie.
I'd rather Valkyries just stick to "Viking-ish" gods.
You make a good point. Urgathoa may offer the War domain, but I can't see her being so much about any sort of honor or even spoils of war for her faithful. She's not really about the winning: Urgathoa is about lots of people losing. The arms dealers and the ravens and the flies get fat no matter who wins. Some of her followers may have the personal might to demonstrate their wares, and some may pursue their hungers in taking by force, but a lot those who find Urgathoa's service rewarding probably avoid open combat well... like the plague. ;^)
From her description, we most likely have the class of beings that takes up the resources other gods might spend on such servants: she favors particularly effective female clerics by turning them into the undead 'daughters of Urgathoa.' As she's said to work with the Horsemen, daemons are the messengers you'll probably see moving to and from her domain in the Great Beyond.
So different gods will have different servants of this type. Psychopomps are a general class of beings of whom valkyries are only one example, and for some of those beings it's only one duty among many. (Like serving ale to partying Norsemen.)
Jem is my new friend, for posting about psychopomps. ** spoiler omitted **
Watch out for that Alcibiades dude he may mutilate them when he ships off with the army to Syracuse.
So Mairkurion are they "fully equipped" hermai?
H.P. Lovecraft used Whippoorwills as psychopomps in his novel The Dunwich Horror
Jem is my new friend, for posting about psychopomps. ** spoiler omitted **Watch out for that Alcibiades dude he may mutilate them when he ships off with the army to Syracuse.
So Mairkurion are they "fully equipped" hermai?
Unfortunately, they're just the busts. But they're quite fun--the rare "Janus-headed" one with Hermes on one side and Dionysios on the other.
I keep a close eye on Alcibiades, trust me.
Personally, I think once you start moving away from choosing the valorous dead that died a glorious death in battle, you are talking about something completely different than a valkyrie. I really don't picture, for example, Urgathoa having a valkyrie.
I'd rather Valkyries just stick to "Viking-ish" gods.
I'm with you on this, KEJR.
Personally, I think once you start moving away from choosing the valorous dead that died a glorious death in battle, you are talking about something completely different than a valkyrie. I really don't picture, for example, Urgathoa having a valkyrie.
I'd rather Valkyries just stick to "Viking-ish" gods.
Yup me too... I definately favour the valkyrie as maidens of Gorum, perhaps something his most fervant of female followers can aspire to become [?] likewise the ironclad wolves they ride for his male followers... not saying all would end up like this just the "chosen few"...
[casts resist: obvious double entendre spell successfully]
For the Ulfen a glorious death would ensure a place in "valhalla" to fight in Gorum's enternal battles and in the feast hall afterwards. That would mark out these valkyrie as being mere "collectors" of the fallen for whichever god/diety etc... taxis for the soul they weren't!
Love the idea of swarms [flocks] of ravens either following in their wake or being harbingers of their arrival.
Just my 2 runes worth
H.P. Lovecraft used Whippoorwills as psychopomps in his novel The Dunwich Horror
Pharasma does too; they're mentioned several times in her description.
Mmm... Lovecraft.
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I think a Valkyrie's mount should be like a paladin's. She summons it when needed. Also, it is the Valkyrie's power that makes the mount fly and what type it is. A low level Valkyrie would start with wolves that cannot fly. As she gains levels, she would gain the ability to make her mounts fly. As she gains levels, her mounts change until she has a horse at higher levels where she still uses her power to make it fly. At her highest levels, she summons a winged horse.
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I think a Valkyrie's mount should be like a paladin's. She summons it when needed. Also, it is the Valkyrie's power that makes the mount fly and what type it is. A low level Valkyrie would start with wolves that cannot fly. As she gains levels, she would gain the ability to make her mounts fly. As she gains levels, her mounts change until she has a horse at higher levels where she still uses her power to make it fly. At her highest levels, she summons a winged horse.
So make it sort of a Phantom Steed SLA, with custom special effects?
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I think a Valkyrie's mount should be like a paladin's. She summons it when needed. Also, it is the Valkyrie's power that makes the mount fly and what type it is. A low level Valkyrie would start with wolves that cannot fly. As she gains levels, she would gain the ability to make her mounts fly. As she gains levels, her mounts change until she has a horse at higher levels where she still uses her power to make it fly. At her highest levels, she summons a winged horse.
So make it sort of a Phantom Steed SLA, with custom special effects?
I hadn't thought of that, but you are giving me interesting ideas.
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So make it sort of a Phantom Steed SLA, with custom special effects?I hadn't thought of that, but you are giving me interesting ideas.
It's kind of the same theme I was going with when I wrote up the Gebbite Bone Cavalry with the ability to summon up skeletal warhorses, wyverns and / or mammoths as mounts. :)
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i agree with the idea of going back to classic valkiries... wolf-riding battle maidens going to the battlefields to mark those who died well in glorious or heroic battle...
the purview was to have warriors ready for Ragnarok... so not everyone will do... but it won't matter if its good, neutral or evil... or even lawful or chaotic... the only thing that matters is that they fight an die and return and fight and again over and over again so they are going to be the army of the gods
i see Iomedae taking a few stray lawful valkiries who seek those honorable and valiant who will fight against the creeping chaos ane other evil menaces in the universe... Iomedae will take everysoldier she can get as long as he covers the honorable, loyal and brave aspects... here we can go with the modern aspect of brught armroed battle maidens over flying chargers
otherwise Gorum would have the most use for valkiries, ironclad from head to toe, their appearance unimportant for the god of war as long as they fight and bring his chossen ones for eternal war and bloodshed...be evil, neutral or good... as long as they can raise and take arms and fight again and again... they are welcome in gorum's arms
of course cowards don't need to apply.. they will rot and become the food of gorum's dogs and gorum's crows
Interesting question, as the valkyries are a kenning for the "wolves of Odin," which actually (IIRC) refers to scavengers eating the dead after a battle....
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Interestingly, there is some debate among Nordic scholars on this topic. Some sources do depict Valkyrie riding wolves, or arriving with wolves. However, other sources describe, as Sean pointed out, the wolves arriving to scavange the battlefield after the Valkyrie have already departed with the chosen souls. Some Norse sources even depict the Valkyrie using horses, such as the The Tjängvide image stone, although it is believed that the horse in that image actually belongs to Odin. It is possible that the Valkyrie in this scene are incidental.
Interesting stuff, David.
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i see Iomedae taking a few stray lawful valkiries who seek those honorable and valiant who will fight against the creeping chaos ane other evil menaces in the universe... Iomedae will take everysoldier she can get as long as he covers the honorable, loyal and brave aspects... here we can go with the modern aspect of brught armroed battle maidens over flying chargers
Give her wings and a helmet, and Iomedae cuts a very Valkyrie-esque figure.
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Give her wings and a helmet, and Iomedae cuts a very Valkyrie-esque figure.
i see Iomedae taking a few stray lawful valkiries who seek those honorable and valiant who will fight against the creeping chaos ane other evil menaces in the universe... Iomedae will take everysoldier she can get as long as he covers the honorable, loyal and brave aspects... here we can go with the modern aspect of brught armroed battle maidens over flying chargers
ahh yes indeed
but why cover her countenance when she can strike the fear of her enemies with her beauty and determination?but yes you expose quite interesting points...
so the valkiries might have some power over wolves to keep them away from the corpses of those would receive the valkyries blessing
mmm interesting indeed
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My ancesters are from Norway, so I'm big into studying Norse mythology. My dad is big on geneology and one of the lines that he has traced back ends with our earliest known ancestor being listed as Thor, son of Odin, of Asgard. ;)That's some seriously thorough record-keeping.
Yeah, but something tells me that my ancestors suffered from delusions of granduer.
