I needed a place to vent.
Turn back now.
Every other weekend, a group of gamers I am acquainted with run a game at the local gaming store. I played in about two or three sessions before gracefully bowing out for a number of reasons. I should have trusted my instincts then.
The game had been postponed for nearly a month as the GM was out of town. This weekend, he was back and I asked if I could sit in again. Everyone seemed happy to have me back in the game. The GM stated my character had been captured and the rest of the party was unaware of his fate. It seemed the perfect explanation for my absence and sudden reappearance.
The first four hours consisted of me sitting there…watching…as the party rescued my character. About an hour into the game, a third gamer showed up and his character magically appeared with the rest of the party without a second thought or explanation. I, continued to watch. How exciting.
To make matters worse, the rescue attempt was in a house where apparently every door and every five foot space is trapped. I would say a good hour was spent with roughly the following dialogue:
“I check for traps. You fail. I check for traps again. O.k. You find it. I try to disarm it. You fail. I try again. You fail. I assist the rogue in disarming the trap. O.k. You disarm it. I move five feet and check for traps. You find it. I attempt to disarm. You fail.”
Seriously. Is this what passes for role playing these days? I completely understand that different people play for different reasons and there are a million different definitions of what constitutes fun. I can not reasonably fathom that anyone would find this enjoyable. This went on for about an hour at least. While I sat there. Watching.
The party finally finds my character and I am too badly beaten to do anything. So the party decides they will leave and get some healing for me. The GM informs the party they may not get another chance to retrieve the dingus they were searching for before this turned into a rescue mission. Well, when the GM speaks, people take it as a hint. Right?
So the party decides to press on, looking for this ever so important dingus. I continue to sit…and wait. Watching. Another hour of traps and searching for secret doors. After that frustrating hour, the players decide maybe they should just take me to get healing. Again, the GM mentions they forgot to check a different room for secret doors.
So they return to that room and after everyone in the party makes several more rolls, someone finally spots a secret door. The rogue checks for traps. Nope, this one is clear. So he moves into the room.
Bam! Another trap. This one taking out the rogue completely. The party has to use a grappling hook and fish the rogue out of the room for fear of setting the trap off again. The party of three is now down to a party of two and carrying two other unconscious members.
Have I mentioned I am still watching. I have not touched a die except to rearrange them a few times. Going on four hours now.
The party decides to leave now. With no rogue and obviously more traps, can you really blame them? They head to the local temple, who they happen to be working for, for some much needed healing. Except when they get there, all of the priests are gone. The Halfling that opens the door is rather surly and obviously hiding something behind his back. Another combat breaks out.
Realizing the fight itself is going to last at least another hour, I decided I had had enough and left.
It seems every day I hear GMs complaining about characters min/maxing, metagaming and being too cautious.
Seriously.
Is it really any wonder why?
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I needed a place to vent.
This is 100% the DM's fault. Unless you're telling us the other players were all thrilled with this style? Ugh, a nightmare.
It's the DM's job to set pacing and give a feel for a place, weather that be paranoia, gung-ho or mysterious. I can't imagine anyone actually liking the style you're describing, and letting you sit there watching is...incredulous.
-DM Jeff
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I think the real important question is: did they ever find the dingus?
You know, a friend of mine had the same problem so he decided to lead by example and DMed a series of short campaigns to try and strike a spark some inspiration/creativity in the group. Is your problem just the DM or all the players involved?
Honestly, I suspect the GM simply does not know any better. I am fairly certain he is an experienced gamer but new to running a game.
I would say the other player’s silence is consent. I am not saying they are 100% to blame, but if they do not say anything, they deserve what they get.
Maybe they were enjoying themselves.
I left before the dingus was retrieved. The joy the GM seemed to revel in at the PC’s incompetence suggests to me it was not retrieved.
Whenever I have tried to run a game, no one shows up. Perhaps, due to my vocal dislike of dungeon crawls, they fear what the game may be like.
Wow, that description was painful to read for twenty seconds -- I can only imagine what it was like to play (or not play) for four hours. I have to concur with other posters. As someone who's moved around a fair bit, it's pretty easy to find less than optimal groups who are looking for players, but finding that good group is always a bit trickier. Best of luck in your ongoing search.
Sounds like the DM tried to recreate some computer game, and had a really bad adventure prepared. If the other players are content with this, ok. But I would rather not play than play like this. I feel with you and would not ever play with this DM again. But I don´t think every game is like this.
If no one shows up if you try to DM, do you have any clue why? Is there anybody you played with in the past who might be willing to give you the benefit of a doubt?
Stefan
Is it really any wonder why?
Well... yes. It is a wonder - as I can't imagine your story being even remotely common.
Sounds like the DM tried to recreate some computer game, and had a really bad adventure prepared.
I am pretty sure he was running a pre-planned adventure. I do not know if it was a published adventure.
No, every game is not like this.
O.k. I exaggerated on the ‘no one shows up’. One guy did one time. I know he would play.
The truth is, I do not think I want to play with any of them ever again. The previous sessions I played in were pretty much dungeon crawls and no one else seemed discontented with this.
I left rather abruptly without saying much. Just a ‘see you guys’. I have not gotten a single e-mail from anyone. So I think no one thinks there was a problem. No one but me.
Maybe it is me. Maybe I am in the wrong hobby.
Some people love crawling through a "Tomb of Horrors"-style string of deathtraps, but I hate it. De gustibus non est disputandum.
Some people hate dungeon crawls, it's a reality. My group is almost entirely comprised of people that don't like that aspect of the game, so I tailor adventures to not rely on them. You aren't in the wrong hobby.
I actually enjoy a good dungeon crawl now and then, but I wouldn't identify what Court Fool described as a good dungeon crawl. A good dungeon crawl should throw all kinds of stuff at you, and any traps should be memorable ones that offer multiple ways to detect, and bypass or defeat them. What the OP described sounds like a GM power trip in which the GM is just trying to show off how many "cool killer traps" he can cram into one location.
To me, the definition of a successful trap is one that (A) the PCs sort of want to set off to see what it does, and (B) will set off knowing that there will be a chance to avoid the consequences through some kind of quick thinking and/or skill checks.
CR
I actually enjoy a good dungeon crawl now and then, but I wouldn't identify what Court Fool described as a good dungeon crawl. A good dungeon crawl should throw all kinds of stuff at you, and any traps should be memorable ones that offer multiple ways to detect, and bypass or defeat them.
Exactly. That's why I specified that I personally hate "strings of deathtraps" instead of "dungeon crawls"; not every dungeon is the Tomb of Horrors...
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If there were that many traps I think anyone would hate it. It was pretty ridiculous to have you sit all that time and when they find your character he is stable at negative hp. The GM should have been able to tell that either you or the players were getting frustrated and think a little creatively to get the game going again. If the bad guys are torturing prisoners it wouldn't be surprising is there was a small cabinet filled with some healing potions they use to revive their prisoners. Easy way to explain some much needed healing without it being a total gimme.
Most of the problem is the GM needs more experience. If he can't introduce a character back into a campaign in less that a half hour he has got some problems.
If the bad guys are torturing prisoners it wouldn't be surprising is there was a small cabinet filled with some healing potions they use to revive their prisoners.
Funny you should mention that. It was proposed by one of the players and shot down by the GM.
I can concede that a good dungeon crawl could be enjoyable. I also concede that this failed as a ‘good’ dungeon crawl. So that is what? Two strikes?
The problem is that it seems like the only groups I can find are fond of dungeon crawls.
You need to throw down some Whispering Cairn on these people and show them true enlightenment.
I don't mean to offend, but I'm going to bring up some uncomfortable questions. Do you think the GM feels threatened by you? Was he running a scenario hoping to drive you away? You mention that you had left once before - could it have left bad feelings on his part? I ask because once when I was a lot more immature, I ran a session intentionally designed to bug one guy into leaving. Not a shining moment in my history and I regret it, but there you go.
If you think it is simply a matter of differing style of play preferences, my recommendation would depend on if you like these guys or not. If you do, suck it up, hang out, and just try to enjoy the banter and company, not the game. If you don't want to be buddies with these guys, then ditch'em - move on and hope to find a group with the play style you prefer. Life's to (too?) short to put up with what you consider crap.
It is something I have considered. I think he is more mature than that, but it is possible.
No, I do not think I want to game with these guys anymore. I knew our play styles were too different the first time I tried to game with them.
The thing is, I do not think anyone has my playstyle.
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The thing is, I do not think anyone has my playstyle.
Not to get all profound on you, but I think this is true for everybody! I mean sure some share similar styles, but anyone who has been gaming for a few years has developed his or her own game style and preferences...
I have a long time friend with whom I've gamed with for over 25 years, and he and I don't have the same preferences...
What is your preferred style just out of curiosity?
-That One Digialef Fellow-
The thing is, I do not think anyone has my playstyle.
That's rough. I can't believe it, but I can understand what probably makes you feel that way. I'll avoid going through the usual list of ways to find a compatible group, I'm sure you know them. You sound pretty down and perhaps I can offer some reassurance - there's a reason why you're so well liked around here, and why you're previous absence was so keenly felt by those who frequent these boards. Everyone's gaming life goes through up and downs and eventually you'll get an upswing again.
Ugh, that sucks. I hate it when I get stuck in a game but I never actually do anything.
The thing is, I do not think anyone has my playstyle.
Try an online game. At least a dozen rp-focussed games start every week, and that's just D&D. I'm sure you could find a classless campaign to your liking. Or run one yourself. Yeah, I know online games aren't quite the same as live games, but some of us just don't live in game heavy areas.
TS
I left rather abruptly without saying much. Just a ‘see you guys’. I have not gotten a single e-mail from anyone. So I think no one thinks there was a problem. No one but me.
Maybe it is me. Maybe I am in the wrong hobby.
I feel really badly about the situation you were in. It sounds like an awful experience (I remember being in a game where I was waiting to be rescued and that alone is frustrating as hell). I certainly would want to leave, too. But...
Here's the thing: GMs NEED feedback. GMs do not automatically come with a level of Telepath, and many of us don't even have ranks in Sense Motive or even good Wisdom scores. I know that if I am a good GM at all, it's because I had reliable players who sat down with me and said, "Okay, this was really fun, but this other thing... I'm sorry, but we were bored stiff, and here's what I do to avoid situations like this..."
I cannot think of a way a bad GM can learn how to become a good GM without the help and guidance of fellow reliable and experienced players.
If you just get up and leave, as far as anybody knows, you're just antsy or cold or had somewhere else you needed to be, or just don't like anybody there. In fact, silence will almost guarantee that--if everyone else is happy with the situation--the others will assume you're the one being a jerk.
This DM needs to know why you're not interested in playing and what he needs to do to improve his game. Yes, he may not heed your advice, but... he's a hell of a lot better off hearing what you have to say than not. And you most certainly are better off, because, worst case scenario? He never asks you to play with him again. That doesn't sound like a huge tragedy.
If nothing else, as long as you maintain some level of tact, at least he and maybe the others will understand that kind of campaign just isn't your bag.
And if other players know if your complaint (obviously without making a melodrama out of it) might even follow your example. Could be everyone's politely tolerating an awful game because everyone's terrified of confrontation. Can't think of a worse gaming situation where everyone is miserable because everyone is only capable of passive aggression about the situation at best and is uselessly being mute about it at worst.
End the freaking misery already and tell the GM what's up.
I thank everyone for their comments. An online game is an excellent suggestion.
In fact, silence will almost guarantee that--if everyone else is happy with the situation--the others will assume you're the one being a jerk.
That is just it. Maybe I am the only one being the jerk.
I fully admit that I am an avoider and tend to be passive aggressive.
Hmmm, maybe I need to start an entirely new thread for me and Clinically Depressed Poodle.
In fact, silence will almost guarantee that--if everyone else is happy with the situation--the others will assume you're the one being a jerk.That is just it. Maybe I am the only one being the jerk.
No, a GM who makes a player sit forever before he brings the player into the game is a jerk. A GM who delights in players suffering through stupid trap tunnels is a jerk.
But by not doing anything about it, you're implicitly consenting to being treated like that.
Not all games are like that. You're not in the wrong hobby, but if you want to enjoy your hobby, you have to take an active interest in creating a positive environment for said hobby. That goes for gaming as much as it goes for... I don't know, card games and knitting circles and cooking clubs.
I fully admit that I am an avoider and tend to be passive aggressive.
Admitting that you engage in poor communication behavior doesn't excuse you from learning good communication behavior. Yes, it is much easier said than done, but if you want the situation to change, the only person you can start with is yourself. Take some assertive behavior or conflict resolution courses if you need to.
I used to be a total freaking doormat, never wanting to "bother" anyone with my trouble, and people used me mercilessly, or ignored me. I got sick of it, and started telling people my needs, and learned to accept that other people are going to tell me theirs.
If you're sick of the situation you're in, then do something about it. Otherwise, you've got no right to complain about being miserable, because you're digging your own pit trap, as it were.
But by not doing anything about it, you're implicitly consenting to being treated like that.
Agreed. I should have left much earlier or asked when he was anticipating me getting into the fray.
Not all games are like that.
Agreed. This was the first time I have been on the sideline for four hours. It was also the first time I have seen so many traps. And the comically handling of all the rolls…that was a first too.
However, the dungeon crawling has been a very common experience for me.
You're not in the wrong hobby, but if you want to enjoy your hobby, you have to take an active interest in creating a positive environment for said hobby. That goes for gaming as much as it goes for... I don't know, card games and knitting circles and cooking clubs.
I am not so sure. When I voice my discontent, I am frequently dismissed as an elitist drama queen. It is very difficult to find anyone who wants to play the systems I want to run. Considering my experience with D&D and my dislike of the system in general, I do not want to run it. So it seems like I am in a very small minority.
That makes it very difficult to not feel like it is just me.
Admitting that you engage in poor communication behavior doesn't excuse you from learning good communication behavior.
Agreed.
Yes, it is much easier said than done, but if you want the situation to change, the only person you can start with is yourself.
Agreed again. The only way I see to change the situation is to remove myself from it. I can not change others and even if I could, what gives me the right?
I am not so sure. When I voice my discontent, I am frequently dismissed as an elitist drama queen.
Have people actually called you an elitist drama queen? If so, what did you say that made them call you this? Is it worth spending time with people who call you an elitist drama queen?
If not, why do you think they are dismissing your ideas? Could there be another reason they are disregarding, or you feel they are disregarding, your ideas? How do you voice your discontent? Are you dismissive of others' gaming tastes? Do you simply ask to try something different? Etc.?
It is very difficult to find anyone who wants to play the systems I want to run. Considering my experience with D&D and my dislike of the system in general, I do not want to run it. So it seems like I am in a very small minority. That makes it very difficult to not feel like it is just me.
I hear you on finding people who want to play the systems you want to run; that is rough when there's something you really want to try and everyone wants to stick to same-old, same old. I think all of us who have gamed for awhile have been in that situation, so no, really, as far as that goes, it's not just you. You probably just are unlucky enough to be somewhere where people want to play the system you don't (I remember when I did want to play some D&D and all I could find at the time was World of Darkness. While I like those games too, the feel is very different and just wasn't what I was looking for at the time.)
The other posters' suggestions of finding a PbP game online is good--just make sure you find some participants who will stay dedicated (I find many PbPs, even very, very good ones, lose players quickly because some folks are just not realistic about making a time commitment for an online activity).
Otherwise, you may just need some time and patience--keep advertising the game you want to run at FLGSes, and look for local-ish gaming cons where you can get your fix in with the systems you want to play. And yeah, unless they're friends of yours, there's no reason to try to contend with GMs who are running their game as a competition. They Are Doing It Wrong.
Agreed again. The only way I see to change the situation is to remove myself from it. I can not change others and even if I could, what gives me the right?
Escaping a situation in not the same thing as changing it. And sometimes, yes, if the situation is bad, you do need to get the heck out of it, but that shouldn't necessarily be the first option you try.
Now, I am going on the assumption that the GM is someone you've known for a little while. If these are people you don't know well, and you could find other people to play with who are also friendlier, that's a reasonable option. It just seems that since you've played with this group before and---even though you think some of them think you're an "elitist drama queen---they've asked you back to play (which seems to suggest they want you around) they might be interested in creating a gaming environment enjoyable to all, even you. It may well be worth putting in your two cents--tactfully, without accusation of course--to see what the result is.
I never said, "try to change your GM." I said, "Give the GM feedback." It is ultimately the GM's choice to change his play style, of course you have to recognize that, but there is no harm in politely approaching him and saying something along the lines of,
"Hey, thanks for inviting me to play, but man, I was sitting there for two hours doing nothing. How would you feel if you were in my place?"
Chat to him about things he might have done differently.
Worse comes to worse, you're exactly where you were before--looking for a better group to play with. But by doing this you're creating the opportunity to arise for a better outcome for everybody--he just might take your advice and you might find his game improves.
And no, letting someone know that you're frustrated and making a few suggestions about how to alter a roleplaying game is not an impingement upon the GM's natural rights as a human being. It's not like you're threatening to eat his brain if he won't get rid of the excess pit traps.
An analogy might be receiving proofreading corrections on a story from a friend. The proofreader trying to help you improve your skills and help you be aware of some things you wouldn't otherwise--a well-appreciated act as long as the suggestions or corrections are done politely and amicably. Your core being isn't going to be altered by hearing out somebody else's ideas.
And we are social beings but not always the most aware, so sometimes we need the help of a fellow human being to be aware of a problem we didn't realize was there.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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That is just it. Maybe I am the only one being the jerk.
Doesn't sound like that to me. I would have started coughing loudly after thirty minutes, flirting with the girl behind the counter after an hour, and whacking the other players on the back of the head by the second hour. You just sat there?
I fully admit that I am an avoider and tend to be passive aggressive.
Hmmmm. I could see that. Try whacking people on the back of the head more. I find it gets their attention.
Hmmm, maybe I need to start an entirely new thread for me and Clinically Depressed Poodle.
Maybe your cultists would cheer you up?
Maybe your cultists would cheer you up?
*humps Tarren's leg*
No. No one has actually called me an elitist drama queen. And to be fair, the times when it was implied, I was disparaging other game styles.
Not to make an excuse, it was out of frustration. And frustration is the reason I am beginning to question my involvement in role playing games. This is suppose to be fun. The fun games just seem too far and few between.
I agree, pbp and other online outlets is an excellent suggestion. I am not sure I can commit the time though. I am allowed the one day a week. Maybe if I started a chat based game on the weekend.
I appreciate your feedback and I do agree. I think the proofreading analogy is off though. Proofreading is requested feedback.
I can not change others and even if I could, what gives me the right?
Well, perhaps not changing them, but you have all the right to have a good time as the others have. The game is supposed to be fun to all involved, so if it is not, something is wrong. If the DM is worth his DMG, he should listen (and worry) if you tell him (politely, of course) that his game was not fun for you.
Who knows, perhaps there are others at the table that are not too happy with this style of gaming as well, but hang on due to lack of a viable alternative. As DeathQuaker wrote, the worst thing you can do is just quitting without giving any feedback, as this robs you of a game and the DM of a chance to improve his game. In one group I play with we used to do a short feedback round at the end of a game day if needed, and that was very helpful to all involved. Be careful, though: giving feedback when tired can easily degenerate into accusing others.
Stefan
I'm going to play Devil's advocate here. While the session, as described, sounds terrible that might well not be that huge a problem for most of the players at the table. I've run some bad sessions myself from time to time, heck I've run some bad sessions in the last six months. I'll do so again in the future as well, unfortunately.
My players put up with the odd bad session because the expectation is that many of the sessions are quite good and occasionally they are truly phenominal - thats why we play. It seems to me that the majority of the players at the table actually enjoy Dungeon Crawls in general if, maybe not this one in particular and they could well be putting up with the DMs occasional bad days because much of the time they feel the DM is giving them basically what they want.
Essentially it strikes me that Courtfool is simply looking for something in his gaming that does not happen to be what these guys are looking for and thats probably fine for everyone involved except Courtfool who probably should simply except that and try and find a group that wants to play the kind of game he is interested in.
I must agree that this was horrible. I cannot imagine that this passes for a role-playing game these days. Ugh.
Waves his blackthorn shillelagh at the kids playing with a shiny new RPG on the sidewalk in front of his house.
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I must agree that this was horrible. I cannot imagine that this passes for a role-playing game these days. Ugh.Waves his blackthorn shillelagh at the kids playing with a shiny new RPG on the sidewalk in front of his house.
Hey M!
LOL!
*Raises his staff and releases a 12d6 fireball upon them*
"Get off my lawn."
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It sounds to me like bad adventure design - the DM didn't think about how to get all the players involved, he was more hung up on his plot and the dingus. It certainly doesn't feel sound personal, and the other guys were happy because they were doing stuff. You weren't - that's really boring, and the main reason you didn't enjoy the session.
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I must agree that this was horrible. I cannot imagine that this passes for a role-playing game these days. Ugh.Waves his blackthorn shillelagh at the kids playing with a shiny new RPG on the sidewalk in front of his house.
Hey M!
LOL!
*Raises his staff and releases a 12d6 fireball upon them*
"Get off my lawn."
What lawn?
Essentially it strikes me that Courtfool is simply looking for something in his gaming that does not happen to be what these guys are looking for...
I am willing to accept that. Thus, the soul searching. I keep thinking, "Roleplaying! I do not think that word means what you think it means."
Case 2
Player: (in the voice of his character): Lord, after all that I have done for you, I demand at least a minute of your time:GM: (getting into the role of the king by looking down his nose at the player): Fine, you have 1 minute, but I promise that if your words do not move me you will die very painfully.
Player: (gets ready to make one heck of a speech as his character) …..
The problem with case 2 in a game that has mechanics for social interactions is that it allows people to "cheat" the system. You can make Cha a dump stat, don't spend any skill points on social skills, and then just substitute the player's abilities for the character's lack of ability. Besides the fact that it is (a) extremely subjective and (b) can punish players who are not as comfortable "acting".
I personally prefer a middle ground, where die rolls and "acting" are mixed together. Where even if a player rolls a 30 on a diplomacy check they still have to give some details on how their character is going to convince the other person, whether they "act" it out is up to them though as a DM I will usually "act" out the responses.
Well, maybe it’s time to define role-playing. Here is a test, which one of these is role-playing?
Case 1
Player: Can I convince the king to let me go? I got 10 ranks in diplomacy.
GM: Sure, roll it.
Player: Natural 20! Yeah!
GM: The king instructs the guards to release you.Case 2
Player: (in the voice of his character): Lord, after all that I have done for you, I demand at least a minute of your time:GM: (getting into the role of the king by looking down his nose at the player): Fine, you have 1 minute, but I promise that if your words do not move me you will die very painfully.
Player: (gets ready to make one heck of a speech as his character) …..
So, which case is role-playing? Well, it’s a trick question. Both are depending upon what players you talk to. I can tell you that I have played in both kinds of games and as far as the players of those games were concerned how they played it was ‘role-playing’.
I can play in either game (and with the right players) have a lot of fun (but I still like case 2 better than case 1).
Or even Case 3, which starts like Case 2, but when the king grants 1 minute, the player rolls the dice for the Diplomacy check. It has more immersion than Case 1 without requiring the player come up with a novel-worthy speech on the spot. I prefer these kinds of compromises, as many of the people I play with (and even I myself on my many off-nights) can't think fast enough to come up with that kind of presentation in real time, but enjoy playing characters who can in the game (thus the skill ranks).
I suppose what I'm driving at here is an agreement with you: not only are the examples roleplaying, but they represent various points on the continuum that is the roleplaying level present in a game. One of the challenges we all face is to find a gaming environment in which the level of that continuum suits our tastes.
Bringing this back around to CourtFool, it appears that he has given these guys a chance before, didn't like what they had to offer, took a break, gave them another chance, and still didn't like what they had to offer. In that case, it's most likely that he will continue to dislike what they have to offer and will be best off looking for another gaming group more amenable to his preferences.