RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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The handy haversack is another item too cheap to be true, and in my experience, it's almost always bought as soon as the party can afford it. In addition to being cheaper than a bag of holding, it is superior to it since you can take items out without provoking AoOs and as a move action, all for 1000gp.
In comparison, the smallest bag of holding costs 2500gp and still provokes AoOs when you get items from it, and if it's actually holding lots of stuff, it takes a full round action.
Regretefully I have to agree. In my gaming group, all of us purchase one as soon as we have the funds. Having a refrigarator worth of storage in a back pack sized accessory is too good to pass up at the price. We normally skip the bags of holding and upgrade to a portable hole which we add in storage shelves and a ladder to assist with storage and retrieval.
All of our archer character prefer a handy haversak over an Effici ent Quiver due to being able to carry many more arrows that way.
Doug
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The handy haversack is another item too cheap to be true, and in my experience, it's almost always bought as soon as the party can afford it. In addition to being cheaper than a bag of holding, it is superior to it since you can take items out without provoking AoOs and as a move action, all for 1000gp.
While I most certainly agree that the Handy Haversack is a little on the cheap side, I should point out that the smallest Bag of Holding can hold twice as much weight-wise than the entire Haversack. It can also fit objects over three times larger than what you can put in the largest part of the Haversack.
The main part of the Handy Haversack has a lot of space inside, but 80 lbs can fill up really fast. Great for things you may need in a pinch on an adventure, but if you plan on looting a dungeon then you can't beat a couple Bags of Holding.
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The handy haversack is another item too cheap to be true, and in my experience, it's almost always bought as soon as the party can afford it. In addition to being cheaper than a bag of holding, it is superior to it since you can take items out without provoking AoOs and as a move action, all for 1000gp.While I most certainly agree that the Handy Haversack is a little on the cheap side, I should point out that the smallest Bag of Holding can hold twice as much weight-wise than the entire Haversack. It can also fit objects over three times larger than what you can put in the largest part of the Haversack.
The main part of the Handy Haversack has a lot of space inside, but 80 lbs can fill up really fast. Great for things you may need in a pinch on an adventure, but if you plan on looting a dungeon then you can't beat a couple Bags of Holding.
And the cost helps those Small characters that can barely carry thier weapons & armor.
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I posted on this in the general section.
From a game-management point of view, the thing is a godsend. It usually becomes the party treasure receptable. For that, I find the price reasonable.
However, the clincher is the ability to pull anything out as a move action -- that's a little too good. If you changed it to a DC 10 Dex check, or even a standard action, the price would be about right.
For 2000gp, the Handy Haversack is too good. I limit its use to potions, scrolls and other alike sized items. The opening is small and cannot be used for larger items. I think this makes it open to less abuse.
For 2000gp, the Handy Haversack is too good. I limit its use to potions, scrolls and other alike sized items. The opening is small and cannot be used for larger items. I think this makes it open to less abuse.
I think you might be on to something here.
If it couldn't fit into the normal compartment of a backpack, then it can't fit into the haversack. This still means that you can add 6000 maximum coins, since coins readily fit into the compartments, but can't fit anything that wouldn't fit the opening. Perhaps state that the opening of the main compartment is 16", and of the two side compartments 6". This limits the overall space that items can occupy, and since the bag of holding is 2' by 4', it can beat the haversack soundly. The Haversack is already limited by the somewhat undefined value cubic feet to 8 ft^3 and 2x2 ft^3, so I think specifically defining the opening size is important.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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The handy haversack is another item too cheap to be true, and in my experience, it's almost always bought as soon as the party can afford it. In addition to being cheaper than a bag of holding, it is superior to it since you can take items out without provoking AoOs and as a move action, all for 1000gp.
In comparison, the smallest bag of holding costs 2500gp and still provokes AoOs when you get items from it, and if it's actually holding lots of stuff, it takes a full round action.
Yup, I'd agree. The HHH wails on the BoH for both utility and cost.
Yup, I'd agree. The HHH wails on the BoH for both utility and cost.The handy haversack is another item too cheap to be true, and in my experience, it's almost always bought as soon as the party can afford it. In addition to being cheaper than a bag of holding, it is superior to it since you can take items out without provoking AoOs and as a move action, all for 1000gp.
In comparison, the smallest bag of holding costs 2500gp and still provokes AoOs when you get items from it, and if it's actually holding lots of stuff, it takes a full round action.
Actually, if the cost was more in line with its capabilities, then it wouldn't be so bad. :)
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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For 2000gp, the Handy Haversack is too good. I limit its use to potions, scrolls and other alike sized items. The opening is small and cannot be used for larger items. I think this makes it open to less abuse.
I think you might be on to something here.
If it couldn't fit into the normal compartment of a backpack, then it can't fit into the haversack. This still means that you can add 6000 maximum coins, since coins readily fit into the compartments, but can't fit anything that wouldn't fit the opening. Perhaps state that the opening of the main compartment is 16", and of the two side compartments 6". This limits the overall space that items can occupy, and since the bag of holding is 2' by 4', it can beat the haversack soundly. The Haversack is already limited by the somewhat undefined value cubic feet to 8 ft^3 and 2x2 ft^3, so I think specifically defining the opening size is important.
Yes, but there's lots of thin long items that you can fit into the opening of a HHH. Just about any weapon or tool for starters. Off the top of my head, one of the few non armor/shields you can't fit in would be a portable ram.
Yes, but there's lots of thin long items that you can fit into the opening of a HHH. Just about any weapon or tool for starters. Off the top of my head, one of the few non armor/shields you can't fit in would be a portable ram.
Portable Ram, Ladder, 10' pole would not fit in the current HH . All of these fail the 8'^3 rule of the HH. Reach Polearms probably don't fit as written, since they may fail the 8'^3 rule, by being more than 8' in a given dimension, although quarterstaves and non-reach polearms currently fit, but the opening might be a problem for things like axes, halberds, and scythes. I'd be inclined to say that, like a bag of holding, the HH have a defined depth and opening size, and be subject to tearing, which means longswords are out, and maybe even shortswords, depending on the defined depth. That will handle a lot of the HH abuse, and mean it goes back to merely useful, but not too good. Therefore, if the HH has two 6" by 4" pouches, and one 16" by 30" compartment, then only things which could fit into a 6" by 4" or 16" by 30" container can fit in the HH.
The hierarchy I see is HH, Bag of Holding, Portable Hole. The HH just needs to be more specifically defined in what can fit inside it, and it will be fine, as some things very reasonably should not fit a HH that would fit a Bag of Holding.
Upon review, as written, the HH is actually just a backpack which reduces weight, and allows the move action retrieval of items.
You cannot fit anything into the HH that would not fit, sizewise, into a normal backpack.
8 cubic feet is a 2'x2'x2' box. You cannot put a 4' sword in a 2'x2'x2' box, and you also can't put a staff, spear, halberd, etc. You might be able to fit light weapons and wands in there, but that's not a problem. The 2 cubic foot side pouches are even smaller.
It may help to explain the Handy Haversack if the dimensions were more specifically spelled out. Standard backpack is remarkably poorly defined, and I think many GMs are confused as to what the Handy Haversack actually offers.
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For 2000gp, the Handy Haversack is too good. I limit its use to potions, scrolls and other alike sized items. The opening is small and cannot be used for larger items. I think this makes it open to less abuse.
*Galnorag ties up and gag's Stuart*
Nothing to see here,
Carry On,
No Problem with this item,
Just go about your business.
It only costs 500gp less than the lowest Bag of Holding, but has less than half the weight capability, and even that is cut into three sections.
The game is balanced with retrieval of items as a move action. The Bag of Holding puts an extra limitation on there when you get into the dimensional space.
If the game can handle move action item retrieval from a regular backpack, then I don't see this item becoming an issue. The most I've seen it used for is to retrieve potions during combat, or maybe thrown specialty items like a Thunderstone.
The Bag of Holding has still been a staple in the groups I've been. Anyone thinking they can get away with just a handy haversack will quickly find out that he can't carry all that he thought he could. Eyes bigger than their stomach situation.
And the cost helps those Small characters that can barely carry thier weapons & armor.
I don't see how a small character has a problem holding their weapons or armor.
3/4 carrying capacity
1/2 equipment weight
They can actually carry more size appropriate equipment that a medium creature of same strength.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Upon review, as written, the HH is actually just a backpack which reduces weight, and allows the move action retrieval of items.
You cannot fit anything into the HH that would not fit, sizewise, into a normal backpack.
8 cubic feet is a 2'x2'x2' box. You cannot put a 4' sword in a 2'x2'x2' box, and you also can't put a staff, spear, halberd, etc. You might be able to fit light weapons and wands in there, but that's not a problem. The 2 cubic foot side pouches are even smaller.
It may help to explain the Handy Haversack if the dimensions were more specifically spelled out. Standard backpack is remarkably poorly defined, and I think many GMs are confused as to what the Handy Haversack actually offers.
The problem is that the HH is not actually a 2x2x2 containter, it's a magical container that can hold 8 cubic feet of materials (or up to 80 lbs.) While a 2x2x2 box IS 8 cubic feet, so is an 8x1x1 box, or any other combination where the dimensions multiply out to 8. In fact, you could even store a 16 foot pole in the HH, as long as it is no more than 1/2 a foot in one dimension and 1 foot in the other dimension, or a 32 foot pole that's 1/2 a foot in diameter.
Would people feel better if they could pay almost double for their bag of holding and be able to retrieve without needing a full action?
Remember.. the only rule that says a full round action is required is in the bag of holding rules. It's not the standard, it's a special rule for the magic item itself.
The game isn't broken with a move action retrieval.
*Galnorag ties up and gag's Stuart*
Nothing to see here,
Carry On,
No Problem with this item,
Just go about your business.
I roll a natural 20 on my CMB check...
I think the description should state the exact cubic dimensions. That alone would make it obvious which items it could contain.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Upon review, as written, the HH is actually just a backpack which reduces weight, and allows the move action retrieval of items.
You cannot fit anything into the HH that would not fit, sizewise, into a normal backpack.
8 cubic feet is a 2'x2'x2' box. You cannot put a 4' sword in a 2'x2'x2' box, and you also can't put a staff, spear, halberd, etc. You might be able to fit light weapons and wands in there, but that's not a problem. The 2 cubic foot side pouches are even smaller.
It may help to explain the Handy Haversack if the dimensions were more specifically spelled out. Standard backpack is remarkably poorly defined, and I think many GMs are confused as to what the Handy Haversack actually offers.
Since I don't think we want to go to the place of having to define precise dimensions for objects (how long is a crowbar, for instance?), perhaps it should just be stipulated that the HHH can hold only Small items.
Abstraction is the way!
Since I don't think we want to go to the place of having to define precise dimensions for objects (how long is a crowbar, for instance?), perhaps it should just be stipulated that the HHH can hold only Small items.
Abstraction is the way!
*Puts on his argumentative player hat*
Is my longsword a small item? is does medium damage....
Hey, does that mean that I can put the halfing in here?
Well, this rod is small right? and this pole arm is just like 8 rods, just as small around, so why can't I put it in?
etc...
I can see a few issues arriving with just saying "small items" fit in. I prefer the current description of 8 cubic feet.
*Puts on his argumentative player hat*
Is my longsword a small item? is does medium damage....
Hey, does that mean that I can put the halfing in here?
Well, this rod is small right? and this pole arm is just like 8 rods, just as small around, so why can't I put it in?
etc...I can see a few issues arriving with just saying "small items" fit in. I prefer the current description of 8 cubic feet.
I think abstraction works.
The first problem is that there is the real problem of someone saying that a 10' pole fits in an 8 cubic foot space, because the space magically configures itself to accomidate 10' poles. The problems with this are obvious, as you cannot fit both a 10' pole and a tent, bedroll, crowbar, lantern, coil of rope, flasks of oil, and waterskin in the same 8 cubic foot space. One configuration of the 8 cubic foot space will hold a crowbar, tent, bedroll, lantern, and full waterskin, and the other one will hold the 10' pole, and it can't be the same space at the same time for both the 10' pole and everything else. It would have to be able to do some magical tetris to be able to do that.
In general, a light weapon is an
object two size categories smaller than the wielder, a onehanded
weapon is an object one size category smaller than
the wielder, and a two-handed weapon is an object of the
same size category as the wielder.
This makes it pretty clear as to what is considered generally a small item, in terms of weaponry. This does make shortspears, longswords, and crowbars all fit into a HH, though. I personally think it is more reasonable if Tiny objects fit into the main compartment of the HH, and allow only Fine objects in the side pouches. I might be willing to handwave it as the magic of the HH allowing Small and Diminutive items, respectively, but that would seem like an upgrade from a normal backpack, even a good hiking pack.
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Haversack is to good but until we have the cubic dimensions of most items, its going to be a whole lotta guess work. I personally would love to see a bump to the power of a bag of holding, make it a huge extradimensional space and give it a handy cinch cord for easy carrying^^
lol, I love the cinch cord. Needs to be on more items!
You've just given me an idea for a portable hole like item made of a loose cinch cord that can never be fully closed due to its cinch nature.
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All of our archer character prefer a handy haversak over an Efficient Quiver due to being able to carry many more arrows that way.
Doug
Err...do you really want to be sticking so many sharp pointy things into your extra-dimensional sack?
Unless they all had corks on the end; in which case, they're hardly ready for Rapid-Shot...
All of our archer character prefer a handy haversak over an Efficient Quiver due to being able to carry many more arrows that way.
Doug
Err...do you really want to be sticking so many sharp pointy things into your extra-dimensional sack?
Unless they all had corks on the end; in which case, they're hardly ready for Rapid-Shot...
Something just struck me as odd about this, as well.
To pull anything from the Handy Haversack, it is a move action.
Drawing amunition from an Efficient Quiver is a free action.
Efficient Quiver is certainly superior for ammo retrieval, as burning a move action, even when using a bow, means you can only shoot one arrow a round. Unless you are letting the PCs play storage tetris, and pull a full quiver from the Handy Haversack as a move action. I think as written, even a crossbow-using scout needs that move action every round.
All of our archer character prefer a handy haversak over an Efficient Quiver due to being able to carry many more arrows that way.
Doug
Err...do you really want to be sticking so many sharp pointy things into your extra-dimensional sack?
Unless they all had corks on the end; in which case, they're hardly ready for Rapid-Shot...
Something just struck me as odd about this, as well.
To pull anything from the Handy Haversack, it is a move action.
Drawing amunition from an Efficient Quiver is a free action.
Efficient Quiver is certainly superior for ammo retrieval, as burning a move action, even when using a bow, means you can only shoot one arrow a round. Unless you are letting the PCs play storage tetris, and pull a full quiver from the Handy Haversack as a move action. I think as written, even a crossbow-using scout needs that move action every round.
The archer in question would put 10 normal quivers of arrows (200 arrows) in the handy haversack plus carried one on her person. She would only retreive a quiver from the haversack to replace an empty one. So the move equivalent was not a problem.
Doug
The archer in question would put 10 normal quivers of arrows (200 arrows) in the handy haversack plus carried one on her person. She would only retreive a quiver from the haversack to replace an empty one. So the move equivalent was not a problem.
Doug
Wierd, I can't imagine too many fights outpacing the Efficient Quiver's capacity, even with Multishot trickiness, especially if you salvage the "javelin" 36 lbs. compartment for extra arrows. Cause really, how many archers actually need that compartment?
Wierd, I can't imagine too many fights outpacing the Efficient Quiver's capacity, even with Multishot trickiness, especially if you salvage the "javelin" 36 lbs. compartment for extra arrows. Cause really, how many archers actually need that compartment?The archer in question would put 10 normal quivers of arrows (200 arrows) in the handy haversack plus carried one on her person. She would only retreive a quiver from the haversack to replace an empty one. So the move equivalent was not a problem.
Doug
Generally speaking, an excellent and inexpensive combination for almost any character is an Efficient Quiver and a Handy Haversack.
Quiver lets you carry (as campaign progresses) a staff, a bow and 4 spears in one compartment; 16 javelins; 60 arrows - or any equivelancies you can dream up - say, 16 wands in where the javelins are (or rods), 60 crossbow bolts and 6 staves for the archmages (or 5 staves and a longbow for the elven archmage). Carry your small essentials in the haversack - rope of climbing, bedroll of nappy numminess, as long as it isn't extradimensional, you're ready to roll on most of the essentials, such as the smaller elements of camping gear, light sources, spare changes of clothing, actual food and perhaps a wand of create food and water at higher levels, y'know, just in case, along with a wand of endure elements.
Give me a belt of many pockets, an efficient quiver, a handy haversack and a ring of sustenance and I'm a happy player!
As written the haversack is pretty clear about its content carrying ability, although it could help a bit to clean up the language, the combination of cubic volume and weight limitations should be sufficient enough. Most players and GM's know what a backpack is - they are often the primary means of transporting materials to a game, especially in school - so I dare say it is a reasonable assumption as to what can fit in the opening. If anything, the cubic volume is there just in case you get to slap-happy with the weight limitations.
Other than all of this, meh, who cares, 'tis a game, as long as there is a "good enough to work" thing going, roll with it! ^_^
Cause really, how many archers actually need that compartment?
I like to pack that compartment with lightning javelins, but that might just be me.
The haversack is an item for DM convenience as much as player. It allows you to give the players a fair amount of loot without worrying about how they're going to carry it off.
A magic change purse and a filing scroll tube also make useful additions.
The portable hole is the one that's far too useful IMHO, especially if you spread one out atop a flying carpet, stack up a few crates and packing cases inside, and fly around the dungeon in the magic convertible that lets you fly under the average dungeon door.
The haversack is an item for DM convenience as much as player. It allows you to give the players a fair amount of loot without worrying about how they're going to carry it off.
Agreed. Having the HH available cheap to lower level characters makes the game go faster, without having to account for the weight of every item you have towards encumbrance. That gets tedious.
"That's...uh,...twenty-six pounds. Won't that make your halfling encumbered?"
"Naw! He puts it in the HH. I can still carry eighteen more pounds in it."
"Good. Now, everyone roll perception checks."
That beats counting out the weight, giving more stuff to the strong guys, getting pissed at the 7 strength wizard, etc., all while burning game time. Too good? Technically, yes, but I can live with it.
Just one of those things that makes gaming easier.