I’m very disappointed how Wildshape got nerfed. It seems that all the other classes got boosted while the Druid got hosed.
While in wildshape, the Druid used to be an effective addition to melee combat (boosts to Str, Dex, Con, Extraordinary abilities, and special attacks) or an effective scout (Scent, Track, etc.); and he could heal some damage in the changeover. The new version is much less effective and second-classed to any other caster with access to the Beast Shape spells.
In my opinion, the old Druid could choose to follow two paths; as a summoner/caster who boosts his animal companion and summoned allies from the back while tossing spells, or as a feral brawler who assumes an animal form to combat his foes with teeth and claw. I like that Pathfinder allows the option to choose an animal companion or not (Nature Bond: Domain powers), but still the Druid now seems relegated to a sidelines caster.
It’s nice that Wildshape’s duration is in hours not just minutes, but give me something more appealing.
Pathfinder, give me a reason to want to be a Druid who can change into animal forms – something the other classes can’t do just by casting a few spells.
I'm probably going to keep the druid the way they were in 3.5.
I like the concept of a frail, halfling druid suddenly transforming into a dire bear, with the dire bear's prodigious strength and fortitude. I find it distasteful that under these new rules, a frail old halfling druid wildshapes into an equally frail and wimpy dire bear. C'mon, what's the point?
My players don't usually play druids, so I am unaware of the whole "druids are far too powerful bit." At lower levels, druids are relatively lackluster, so they deserve a nice payoff - just like the wizard.
I suggest that you modify what rules come out to best fit your group's playing style and preferences.
I'm probably going to keep the druid the way they were in 3.5.
I like the concept of a frail, halfling druid suddenly transforming into a dire bear, with the dire bear's prodigious strength and fortitude. I find it distasteful that under these new rules, a frail old halfling druid wildshapes into an equally frail and wimpy dire bear. C'mon, what's the point?
In one sense, I agree. But I also like the idea that the world's strongest druid can turn into the world's strongest druid-bear.
I'm going to be playtesting a level 9 druid (hopefully) so I'll judge for myself if wild shape is really that useless in melee.
Druids weren't overpowered in 3.0e. They worked quite well with replacement physical scores, instead of additive.
The problems started when they could wildshape AND cast spells at the same time (natural spell). Then you had Tiny flying animals casting long range spells or calling down lightning bolts, etc, while having huge bonuses to hiding.
Stacked on top of that was the wildclasp equipment... allowing the wildshaped druid to get a ton of extra benefits from his equipment while in this wildshape as well.
These were splatbook stuff in 3.0e. It made Wildshape change from "hey, I can pull off some neat utility or semi-decent melee on the occasion"... to "OMFG DR00DS PWN!"
So what did they decide to do? Make a lot of that core in 3.5e. *facepalm*
.
If you have to decide to give up your spellcasting ability to get the physical attacks and scores of the animal, then it would go a long way towards making the Druid less crazy without having to nerf wildshape.
Take out "wildclasp" stuff, and some of the insane animal choices that granted far too many attacks, strength or abilities for their power level.. and you've nerfed wildshape to a far more manageable class ability already.
.
Honestly. I'd like to see someone take the 3.5e SRD (minus natural spell) and make an "overpowered" druid.
If someone is a sickly, weak, and clumsy human/elf/dwarf/halfling/half-orc/whatever, then they should be a sickly, weak, and clumsy ape/bear/wolf/whatever-else IMO.
I dunno. I could see it either way.
I could see a very old Druid, the Heirophant of his forest, being attacked by some bandits thinking they can make an easy grab. He warns them to stop their errant ways and go, but of course they don't listen.
The druid shapechanges into a ferocious bear and swats them around, and they run screaming!
That's a feasible thing to imagine. And it was something seen in 3e.
If someone is a sickly, weak, and clumsy human/elf/dwarf/halfling/half-orc/whatever, then they should be a sickly, weak, and clumsy ape/bear/wolf/whatever-else IMO.
Animal statistics are the normal versions of those creatures. I think there is a lot to be said for making the transformations stat modifiers instead of stat replacements... Like "you can't have your cake and eat it too" ;)
Clerics have to choose to have at least mediocre physical stats if they want to be good at melee (with their buffs).
Druids having to choose to have at least mediocre physical stats if they want to be good at melee (while wild shaped) isn't unreasonable.
This seems like a reasonable concept to me -- assume the published stats are for "average" animals, calculate the effective stat modifiers for the animal, and apply *those* modifiers to the Durid's physical stats. Now I know that just changing that and leaving it would create a host of objections (on the order of "too much math") -- I know because I'd be objecting too. This brings me to another point regarding Druids: how do they gain access to a form to shape into? The text declaims that the Druid must be 'familiar' with the creature, but gives no guidelines for determining familiarity. Rather than penalize the flavor of the class by merely replicating spells that an arcanist can cast, why not provide a more detailed guide regarding how to determine or adjudicate a druid's familiarity with an animal (for example, requiring the Druid to have Wild Empathized a representative creature to 'helpful' and spent some minimum of time with it - a number of days equal to the creature's HD, perhaps). If this is done, there should be a limit to the number of forms a Druid is capable of maintaining familiarity with, equal perhaps to the number of ranks the Druid has in Knowledge (Nature). Given such a short list, it should be fairly easy for the player to track the stat mods for familiar forms.
Alternately, leave the generic Wild Shape as-is, but provide for the ability of Druids to Wild Empathize and spend defined lengths of time becoming specialized with the animal to obtain a greater benefit from Wild Shape - perhaps a feat of some sort to allow this functionality (Wild Shape Specialization)? (A feat would allow characters the option to focus on Shaping or Casting, a flavor balance I've always seen in druids.)
I will say that I like the features in the various polymorphic spells that delineate the special abilities available with that spell, and I do think that this aspect of the change was a good one.
Mostly off-the-cuff thoughts, but I'm playing a 3.5 Druid in one game and a Pathfinder Druid in another, and I can already see the trend toward underwhelming performance of the Pathfinder Druid vs. the 3.5 one at higher level (PF Druid is 7th, 3.5 Druid is 6th).
Regards,
~Doskious Steele
Unfortunately, the way we would like things to work out (with the aged arch-druid and such squishing the would-be advantage takers) tends to take a side step to power gamers and stat-droppers who have used the druid's vast capacity for wildshape to turn campaigns on their heads with very little effort.
In the hands of a proper player druids have always been fun, and awesome, but in their place. Sadly, the rules have to take into account those improper players who use to them to tweak and trick every tiny little advantage from the rules.
Its sad, but its how these kinds of games work.
As others have said- If your players are the responsible, "lets not tear the world down around us" sort, then use the old rules. If they aren't, then let Paizo's fix, fix it.
-S
I find the new druid fine..it did get nerfed and yes it was called for. I would have liked if they had went the PHB2 route . with forms and not really wild shape
Its very simple to correct. If you are running your game, and you like it the other way, then run your game as such.
Also, if you have power gamers, then simply do not allow casting in animal forms. I prefer giving them the stats of the creature they shift into (old man becomes huge powerful bear that CANT cast spells), so thats how it goes in my games.
The rules should not be set in stone, I feel that it is up to the DM to stop munchkin power gaming in his game to keep it fun and challenging for all the players.
In my opinion, the old Druid could choose to follow two paths; as a summoner/caster who boosts his animal companion and summoned allies from the back while tossing spells, or as a feral brawler who assumes an animal form to combat his foes with teeth and claw. I like that Pathfinder allows the option to choose an animal companion or not (Nature Bond: Domain powers), but still the Druid now seems relegated to a sidelines caster.
The old druid didn't have to make the choice. He could be the summoner/ caster and be the feral brawler, or both at once.
The fix under Pathfinder is reasonable. Now the druid has to actually make a choice and invest in higher melee attributes if he wants to be a melee player.
I'm not sure where you get "The new version is much less effective and second-classed to any other caster with access to the Beast Shape spells." Duration is in hours not minutes, it's otherwise identical to the equivalent beast shape spells. Overall it's better than Beast Shape. I guess they don't get BS IV for magical beasts but otherwise they have a much larger selection than a wizard who memorizes a single polymorph spell and they get the ability multiple times per day and in addition to their normal spell list.
I do think it makes sense for them to add most of the polymorph spells to their spell list. With the exception of the Dragon Forms and the Giant Forms.
|
Unfortunately, the way we would like things to work out (with the aged arch-druid and such squishing the would-be advantage takers) tends to take a side step to power gamers and stat-droppers who have used the druid's vast capacity for wildshape to turn campaigns on their heads with very little effort.
In the hands of a proper player druids have always been fun, and awesome, but in their place. Sadly, the rules have to take into account those improper players who use to them to tweak and trick every tiny little advantage from the rules.
Its sad, but its how these kinds of games work.
As others have said- If your players are the responsible, "lets not tear the world down around us" sort, then use the old rules. If they aren't, then let Paizo's fix, fix it.
-S
But that applies to every class. Min/Max a fighter and just munchkin it out and you have a class capable of massive amounts of damage. All classes are that way. The rules need to be designed for mainstream average players. The way to fix those power players if for the GM to have some balls and step in and say "No Way" once in a while.
|
|
Its very simple to correct. If you are running your game, and you like it the other way, then run your game as such.
Also, if you have power gamers, then simply do not allow casting in animal forms. I prefer giving them the stats of the creature they shift into (old man becomes huge powerful bear that CANT cast spells), so thats how it goes in my games.
The rules should not be set in stone, I feel that it is up to the DM to stop munchkin power gaming in his game to keep it fun and challenging for all the players.
Here here! I agree 100%
I plan on running a 3.5 druid in a new Pathfinder Society group. I have little interest in casting while wildshaped. I plan on specializing and enhancing wildshaping and not casting. That is the way I see the character I want to play.
Now while I think more folks should say no...The issue is alot of DM do not know how or are new...and many games get trashed because of easy abused rules
So yes this needs fixed.
|
Animal statistics are the normal versions of those creatures. I think there is a lot to be said for making the transformations stat modifiers instead of stat replacements... Like "you can't have your cake and eat it too" ;)
My thoughts exactly. A bears heightened Strength is a racial bonus, just as a Half-Orc's is, so why not just have the Wild Shaped character replace their current racial bonus with that of the new form they've assumed? All physical racial modifiers for Dwarven, Half-Orcish, Gnomish, Elvish, Halfling, etc. are dropped in favor of the new form's racial modifiers, because the character *isn't an Elf* at the moment. He's a Black Bear. Not a high-Dexterity graceful and elegant 'Elf-Bear.' Just a bear.
A Gnome Druid would still be happy, exchanging her -2 racial penalty to Strength for a +8 racial bonus to Strength in Black Bear form (or an exciting +16 when she can take Brown Bear form), but if she dumped Strength and had only an 8 before her racial penalty, she'd still be a below average strength bear. If, on the other hand, a Human Druid chose to have a 12 Strength, his Black Bear form would be two Strength points higher than the average Black Bear.
This is a minor drawback for a character that wants to dump Strength, Dexterity or Constitution, as their Wild Shape forms will be weaker than the average Wolf, Bear, whatever, but it will also be encouragement for a character who wants to focus on Wild Shape efficiency to throw some build points into physical ability scores, so that her Wild Shape forms will be stronger, faster and tougher than the 'average bear.'
Suddenly, the only real 'dump stat' for a Druid becomes Intelligence, as spellcasting calls for Wisdom, Wild Empathy calls for Charisma and optimal use of Wild Shape calls for at least average, if not above-average, scores in Strength, Dexterity and Constitution.
Is it 'MAD?' Maybe yes, if the Druid wants to be awesome at *everything.* But if she's got a plan, she can adjust her build appropriately.
Animal statistics are the normal versions of those creatures. I think there is a lot to be said for making the transformations stat modifiers instead of stat replacements... Like "you can't have your cake and eat it too" ;)My thoughts exactly. A bears heightened Strength is a racial bonus, just as a Half-Orc's is, so why not just have the Wild Shaped character replace their current racial bonus with that of the new form they've assumed? All physical racial modifiers for Dwarven, Half-Orcish, Gnomish, Elvish, Halfling, etc. are dropped in favor of the new form's racial modifiers, because the character *isn't an Elf* at the moment. He's a Black Bear. Not a high-Dexterity graceful and elegant 'Elf-Bear.' Just a bear.
A Gnome Druid would still be happy, exchanging her -2 racial penalty to Strength for a +8 racial bonus to Strength in Black Bear form (or an exciting +16 when she can take Brown Bear form), but if she dumped Strength and had only an 8 before her racial penalty, she'd still be a below average strength bear. If, on the other hand, a Human Druid chose to have a 12 Strength, his Black Bear form would be two Strength points higher than the average Black Bear.
This is a minor drawback for a character that wants to dump Strength, Dexterity or Constitution, as their Wild Shape forms will be weaker than the average Wolf, Bear, whatever, but it will also be encouragement for a character who wants to focus on Wild Shape efficiency to throw some build points into physical ability scores, so that her Wild Shape forms will be stronger, faster and tougher than the 'average bear.'
Suddenly, the only real 'dump stat' for a Druid becomes Intelligence, as spellcasting calls for Wisdom, Wild Empathy calls for Charisma and optimal use of Wild Shape calls for at least average, if not above-average, scores in Strength, Dexterity and Constitution.
Is it 'MAD?' Maybe yes, if the Druid wants to be awesome at *everything.* But if she's got a plan, she can adjust her build...
That sounds very much in line with the flavor of the ability as it has been presented within the body of work revolving around wildshaping druids, but at the same time very challenging to implement from a mechanics perspective if groundwork hasn't been laid beforehand. To properly implement this mechanically, the player of the Druid ought to keep notes (or better yet, separate character sheets) for each animal shape that could be assumed - otherwise, when the Druid announces "I'll shape into a Dire Wolverine," there's going to be a break in play as the DM and the player try to figure out what the racial modifiers are for an average Dire Wolverine, and then apply them to the Druid, remembering to factor out racials the druid might already possess. (5 HD, Large Dire Wolverine racials: +12/+6/+8 Str/Dex/Con, assuming default average stats of 10/11/11 as a base.) Not that Wild Shape is any different now, really, just a matter of looking in a different location for modifiers (Spell description) that don't need to be calculated. Of course, in either case one still has to look at the creature entry to determine what, if any, additional features the Druid gets cross-referenced against the spell entry.
On a related note, if the Druid's wild shape does use the racial modifiers of the form assumed, should the Druid's creature type change to the type of the form?
My personal preference is for the creature type to change, if only based on the concept that has been presented in flavor text and story-fluff and fiction that present a wildshaped druid masquerading as a simple animal, sometimes watching foes, sometimes secretly protecting potential allies. If a druid were to attempt such a deception using the presented mechanics without the druid temporarily assuming the creature type of the chosen form, the deception would be potentially ruined the first time anyone tried to cast any sort of spell at the shaped druid specifically dealing with that creature type (Charm Animal, Dismissal, Antiplant Shell, etc.). Having the creature type change temporarily seems more in line with the flavor of the ability, to me.
~Doskious Steele
Animal statistics are the normal versions of those creatures. I think there is a lot to be said for making the transformations stat modifiers instead of stat replacements... Like "you can't have your cake and eat it too" ;)My thoughts exactly. A bears heightened Strength is a racial bonus, just as a Half-Orc's is, so why not just have the Wild Shaped character replace their current racial bonus with that of the new form they've assumed? All physical racial modifiers for Dwarven, Half-Orcish, Gnomish, Elvish, Halfling, etc. are dropped in favor of the new form's racial modifiers, because the character *isn't an Elf* at the moment. He's a Black Bear. Not a high-Dexterity graceful and elegant 'Elf-Bear.' Just a bear.
A Gnome Druid would still be happy, exchanging her -2 racial penalty to Strength for a +8 racial bonus to Strength in Black Bear form (or an exciting +16 when she can take Brown Bear form), but if she dumped Strength and had only an 8 before her racial penalty, she'd still be a below average strength bear. If, on the other hand, a Human Druid chose to have a 12 Strength, his Black Bear form would be two Strength points higher than the average Black Bear.
This is a minor drawback for a character that wants to dump Strength, Dexterity or Constitution, as their Wild Shape forms will be weaker than the average Wolf, Bear, whatever, but it will also be encouragement for a character who wants to focus on Wild Shape efficiency to throw some build points into physical ability scores, so that her Wild Shape forms will be stronger, faster and tougher than the 'average bear.'
Suddenly, the only real 'dump stat' for a Druid becomes Intelligence, as spellcasting calls for Wisdom, Wild Empathy calls for Charisma and optimal use of Wild Shape calls for at least average, if not above-average, scores in Strength, Dexterity and Constitution.
Is it 'MAD?' Maybe yes, if the Druid wants to be awesome at *everything.* But if she's got a plan, she can adjust her build...
This idea was kicked around once before IIR.
The issue is that "simplification" of the polymorph spells/abilities was necessary because every creature needed to be looked up every time a shape was changed. So they changed it to stat mods, so nothing needs to be looked up. Big time saver.
But the formula as originally written in severly nerfs small casters and makes no provision for other sizes than small and medium casters.
So now a caster that is smaller than small must convert his stats to small and then add the spell formula (still nerfing little creatures); casters larger than medium must convert to medium first then apply the spell formula. This gives a giant (pardon the pun) strength advantage to large and larger casters. It also means size changes must be looked up, defeating the original purpose of "simplification".
A gnome druid with a normal strength of 7, has a strength of 13 if he wildshapes into an elephant. A stone giant druid that wildshapes into a cat has a strength of 17.
From previous posts, this is to some peoples' tastes. I don't care for this particular mechanic at all. I would rather use the 3.5 rules for changing shape.
While in wildshape, the Druid used to be an effective addition to melee combat (boosts to Str, Dex, Con, Extraordinary abilities, and special attacks) or an effective scout (Scent, Track, etc.); and he could heal some damage in the changeover. The new version is much less effective and second-classed to any other caster with access to the Beast Shape spells.
In 3.5 the druid did NOT get scent or Track in wild shape (unless he had it in his normal form). In Pathfinder he DOES get scent (and Track has been eliminated). This, in my mind, is a VAST improvement.
The forum ate my post, so I'll just sum up with bullet points:
- Wild Shape was unbalanced in 3.5 because it gave you massive Untyped and Size bonuses. When combined with Natural Casting (which is not imbalanced in and of itself), it allowed Druids to throw nukes and heals around with impunity while getting massive CON bonuses.
- The addition of certain equipment, prestige classes, and feats in later official D20 sourcebooks introduced all kinds of new ways to abuse the Wild Shape rules to obtain ultimate power.
- hogarth suggested that Druids should gain additional points of Enhancement Bonuses whenever they use Wild Shape at higher levels, which would allow them to scale up the power of the Wild Shape ability without causing the spells that serve as the foundation of the class ability to become unbalanced. Jason seemed sympathetic to this idea - I think it's an excellent idea.
hogarth suggested that Druids should gain additional points of Enhancement Bonuses whenever they use Wild Shape at higher levels, which would allow them to scale up the power of the Wild Shape ability without causing the spells that serve as the foundation of the class ability to become unbalanced. Jason seemed sympathetic to this idea - I think it's an excellent idea.[/list]
I agree with this idea wholeheartedly, in 3.5 a problem arose with the melee druid not needing to spend points on physical stats at all, meaning they could still happily buy 18 Wis. Though I'm not sure that wild-shape is up to shape, that issue is at least resolved by the new system.
Personally I think that the new wildshape is perfectly balanced the way it is. I have first hand seen the CoDzilla effect, and think the cleric should have been down graded some.
That being said, I am really ticked off with how much inappropriate uses of the enhancement type bonuses with pathfinder. Getting to stay in a small elemental form in the higher levels indefinitely is a great bonus!
Why would one who changes the form their in get an "enhancement" bonus at all. Your not enhancing ANYTHING your not even suposed to be improving a stat. Your supposed to be changing forms gaining new stats. Now I understand why Jason did what he did, but what basically needs to be done is a new type of bonus, perhaps a "Transmutation" type bonus.
I think the issue is to keep things from stacking. If you make new types of bonuses, that means they can stack with other bonuses.
And the rub is people will find ways to stack and stack until it gets ridiculous.
I personally still like the idea for "qualifiying for a form" (ie having enough base stat,plus size and, enhancement and druid mod bonuses to equal the animal stats or with in 20%) as well as a CAP (no more than 20% over the norm for the animal or elemental will be allowed)
I'm also quite fond of the idea that you can only shape shift into two size categories above or below your natural size category. (effectively gnomes and halfings would get access to smaller forms than humans and humans would get access to larger forms than gnomes and halflings. with some middle ground in between)
My group moved to the PHB2 Druid variant and we haven't looked back. We retain that variant into PFRPG. It's just far, far less a pain in the butt.
Jason should seriously consider looking at that as a guideline and give PFRPG a similar mechanic, even if only as a sidebar optional rule.
I think the issue is to keep things from stacking. If you make new types of bonuses, that means they can stack with other bonuses.
And the rub is people will find ways to stack and stack until it gets ridiculous.
You hit the nail on the head right there - it's to keep bonuses from stacking. Otherwise you'd have everyone running around in Wild Shape while loading themselves down with Enchancement Bonuses from either magical items or buff spells.
But, but ...
"It's not nice to nerf Mother Nature!
So far the new druid rules are working well for us. I like them as is. However, our druid is only 7th level in a party of recently converted 3.5 chars. We are doing the dungeon crawl classic Sunless Garden module, so her role is key. <1st post!>
So far the new druid rules are working well for us. I like them as is. However, our druid is only 7th level in a party of recently converted 3.5 chars. We are doing the dungeon crawl classic Sunless Garden module, so her role is key. <1st post!>
Does your druid use wild shape for melee fighting?
So far the new druid rules are working well for us. I like them as is. However, our druid is only 7th level in a party of recently converted 3.5 chars. We are doing the dungeon crawl classic Sunless Garden module, so her role is key. <1st post!>Does your druid use wild shape for melee fighting?
She just started to seriously melee with tiger form. I thought she was pretty decent just as a spell caster with her pet, but after she could do large creatures the melee option became an added bonus. In two recent two battles she helped tear up some otyughs and bugbears which were admittedly very easy for lvl 7. Her other trick is staying in owl form and dishing out spells via natural spell feat. I'll keep some stats and report back how she fares against the other melee chars (lvl 7 paladin and lvl 7 ranger) in our upcoming battles.
<Prior Quotes> ...
This idea was kicked around once before IIR.The issue is that "simplification" of the polymorph spells/abilities was necessary because every creature needed to be looked up every time a shape was changed. So they changed it to stat mods, so nothing needs to be looked up. Big time saver.
But the formula as originally written in severly nerfs small casters and makes no provision for other sizes than small and medium casters.
So now a caster that is smaller than small must convert his stats to small and then add the spell formula (still nerfing little creatures); casters larger than medium must convert to medium first then apply the spell formula. This gives a giant (pardon the pun) strength advantage to large and larger casters. It also means size changes must be looked up, defeating the original purpose of "simplification".
A gnome druid with a normal strength of 7, has a strength of 13 if he wildshapes into an elephant. A stone giant druid that wildshapes into a cat has a strength of 17.
From previous posts, this is to some peoples' tastes. I don't care for this particular mechanic at all. I would rather use the 3.5 rules for changing shape.
I concur, the new mechanics are just as complex as the old mechanics are when implemented for non-Small or -Medium creatures. For players, that's cool, makes stuff simpler. For DMs, it's a smidge tedious, but I can see giving more complexity to the folks who are supposed to take time not in sessions to prep.
That said, it strikes me as a far easier mechanic (and more Backwards Compatible too) to simply limit the number of forms a Druid has access to shape into, scaled to level, and alterable at level-up, similar to Sorcerers and spells. If the forms to shape into are limited and have to be selected during the level-up process, it's easy to track the changes to stats from each shape, and easy to limit the 'broken-ness' of forms a Druid has available. I'm usually in favor of simplifications to complex mechanics, but in this case, it seems like the flavor of the ability is taking a backseat to mechanical ease-of-use and the desire for so-called balance between characters (Druids, with their pervasive connection to nature, ought to be capable of tapping more of the raw character of their forms than an arcanist with the spell, it seems to me), and for an RPG, that seems like a questionable motivation.
Even in the absence of this implementation, it would be nice to have some additional guidelines regarding how to determine if a druid is "familiar" enough with the desired form to be able to shape into it.
~Doskious Steele
I like the concept of a frail, halfling druid suddenly transforming into a dire bear, with the dire bear's prodigious strength and fortitude. I find it distasteful that under these new rules, a frail old halfling druid wildshapes into an equally frail and wimpy dire bear. C'mon, what's the point?
The point is exactly what you said: If you want to have good melee stats, get good melee stats.
I'll agree that PF polymorph with its enhancement bonuses goes too far (size bonuses or a mix of size and enhancement are better, and that's probably what I'll implement in the end), but the old system was too much: Pretty much ignore half your ability scores, wait a couple of levels (unless you have access to other sources that have spells that cut the waiting time down to nothing), and make those weak stats irrelevant.
The new system will make sure people pay for what they get. Plus, the concept of a buff druid is no longer punished by the game.
That said, it strikes me as a far easier mechanic (and more Backwards Compatible too) to simply limit the number of forms a Druid has access to shape into, scaled to level, and alterable at level-up, similar to Sorcerers and spells. If the forms to shape into are limited and have to be selected during the level-up process, it's easy to track the changes to stats from each shape, and easy to limit the 'broken-ness' of forms a Druid has available. I'm usually in favor of simplifications to...
I agree completely. It makes total sence that a druid has a handful of shapes they like and can use all the time. I mean that's what I'd do as a Druid character anyways!
Until that druid comes from the land of the dinosaurs... I think the current fix is much closer to what is needed. I agree with Kae Yoss, that it should end up being a combination of size bonus and another type of bonus (I kind of like the idea of replacing the racial bonus but enhancement works in the short term) I would like it to be something other than an enhancement bonus so all those wonderful buffing spells the druid has don't go to waste.
Part of the problem in 3.5 was the HD limit. My point would be without an actual limit on what the druid gets from wild shaping it's too easy to break.
As new monsters come out with new abilities at lower or different HD limits then the druids will start choosing those creatures to wild shape into. The idea that you are limited to your home terrain only holds up until you attack the party with that creature inside the druids "home turf".
The idea of the current wild shape is one of freedom for both player and DM: You can choose any form you want without much problem becuase you know what abilities you are getting, and the DM doesn't have to worry that you are trying to pull a fast one and get away with something you shouldn't.
My only problem with the bonuses from wild shaping being enhancement is the buffs as mentioned and magic items:
"Hey druid do you want this + 4 belt of Con?"
Druid "No thanks I'll just stay in wild shape all the time, and save my money for a few really big items."
I honestly see the problem as wildshape. In 3.5 I go from being a puny sickly ungraceful humaniod to top of the food chain with pounce and a slew of other great abilities.
As mentioned above at that point I can ignore half my stats, they flat out don't matter, as I will replace them with my wild shape form.
|
|
I am going to have to say that I don't think that the fix is really that bad. Sure it nerfs druids, but at the same tim it only nerfs them to the point that they are only slightly more powerful than other spellcasters. For example, a wizard would not have access to Beast Shape I until 5th level and a sorcerer doesn't get it until 6th level. All in all, druids don't get hurt that much, and is much more in line with the other classes now.
|
|
PHB II offered something similar to what you are proposing. You give up your animal compainion and wild shape and then gain different forms that you can shapshift into. The rules also state that you have to pick a form you are familiar with and comfortable with, hence no tigers in the woods. And you can't pick up Natural Spell because you don't get Wild Shape. It's an excellent system that unfortunately is not OGL. However, it is workable with Pathfinder. One of the players in my Scarred Land pbp is using this option and it has worked out great so far.
I'll agree I dont think wildshape was the problem so much as 1) HD limit and 2) natural spell and wildclasp items.
However after looking at Beta Wild shape it is "good enough" (with the added part that I think Jason is going to add at the end)
As long as you have high Melee stats, you will (eventually) be able to shape into the larger stronger animals.
I agree with Kae Yoss, that it should end up being a combination of size bonus and another type of bonus (I kind of like the idea of replacing the racial bonus but enhancement works in the short term) I would like it to be something other than an enhancement bonus so all those wonderful buffing spells the druid has don't go to waste.
Pure enhancement bonus is bad, because druids still cannot use physical stat boosters and get the full effect out of them. Even clerics now have a use for belts of strength (and one of their main buff spells, Righteous Might, even works with it).
I can see why they don't want to give them the full bonus some of those spells grant as a size bonus, and I'd be fine with enhancement bonuses for everything beyond a certain level, so the druids cannot go and buff themselves up too much.
I'd say that there should be a size bonus to all polymorph spells, which would apply to all spells and only depend on the size you assume. If you're not medium-sized, the size bonuses of your size category compared to medium are "reversed" first.
On top of that, you get enhancement bonuses to your ability scores, and those depend on the spell itself.
Maybe make the size gains you can get from polymorph spells not fixed sizes, but steps: Beast shape I lets you change your size by one step down or remain the same, so a human could become a wolf or a dog, while a halfling could become a dog or a cat. Beast Shape 2 adds another step down and one step up, 3 2 steps up, and so on (so a halfling needs a better spell to become a large bear - which is fine, since his size bonuses will be better).
That said, it strikes me as a far easier mechanic (and more Backwards Compatible too) to simply limit the number of forms a Druid has access to shape intoNot very backwards compatible, either: While before, my druid could turn into a wolf, a dog, a boar, a dire badger, a dire weasel, a eagle, a large snake,.... he only can be a wolf now? Nope. Don't like that.
That said, it strikes me as a far easier mechanic (and more Backwards Compatible too) to simply limit the number of forms a Druid has access to shape intoNot very backwards compatible, either: While before, my druid could turn into a wolf, a dog, a boar, a dire badger, a dire weasel, a eagle, a large snake,.... he only can be a wolf now? Nope. Don't like that.
Now wherever did I say that the numbers would be necessarily low? ^__^
Perhaps the mechanic would be scaled based on druid level and familiar form HD. Perhaps the mechanic wouldn't be numerically limited, but rather limited by the time spent becoming familiar with target forms. That might allow one to maintain a fairly large list of familiar forms at the start of play, but still could address the problem of "Oh, I'm 15th level now, I can wildshape into any of these 15 HD animals!"
Perhaps that the mechanic could work something vaguely like this: To be familiar enough with a particular animal to assume its form via Wild Shape, one must have spent a minimum of one week per hit die of the animal in the company of a friendly or helpful representative of the species. The Druid is assumed to have spent time in this fashion during initial training or instruction for forms numbering one plus Wisdom modifier, and can elect to pursue the study of additional forms by making the appropriate wild empathy check to attain friendly status and increasing time spent in study during the initial creation process as appropriate. Finding a representative animal to empathize with takes an additional week; if the first wild empathy check is unsuccessful, the druid can spend another week finding a different representative creature, and may attempt a second check. If this check also fails, the druid cannot make another attempt until she has gained a level. The forms that are capable of study are those that can be selected at first level as an animal companion, subject to environmental limitations. The Druid is also automatically assumed to be familiar with the form of her initial animal companion, and with the form of any subsequent animal companion she attracts and retains for the appropriate length of time. If the Druid employs Speak with Animals at the start of each day of study, the length of study required is reduced to one day per HD.
That is considerably too restrictive, I think, and perhaps too time-intensive for the adventuring Druid, but perhaps it could spark ideas. Maybe something twigged to Knowledge (Nature)? Something harder than the DC to identify the creature perhaps?
I really do feel that (in the same way that Wizards are presented with defined mechanics for adding spells to their repertoire, gaining 2 spells at level-up of their choice and having to find a way to gain others and pay for the cost of inscribing the spells) the method that Druids gain additional forms should have something mechanical to describe how it comes about and what costs might apply to it. I believe that the lack of the correct mechanic to define access to wild shape forms was the primary cause of the imbalance they enjoyed in 3.x, and that if said mechanic was provided properly, the wild shape ability would not need quite as much fixing.
That said, I do like the departure from the old mechanic that the form's physical stats overwrite the druids' - I just think that the specific alterations made go a bit too far.
Apologies for the lengthy post!
~Doskious Steele
Many of you point out that PF’s version of wildshape requires a druid to spend points into the physical stats (Str, Dex, Con) if they want to be effective melee fighters and therefore its balanced. I argue that the cost is that the druid now loses access to spell levels due to a lower Wis – does that sound balanced?
Let me reiterate a point that many of you also make – any class can be min/maxed into an overpowered corruption of itself by a creative player (cleric tank for example). It wasn’t the druid class that was broken, it was the polymorph spell that wildshape was tied to. The druid class lost out in the transition, but didn’t gain anything as the other classes did
Also, with the nerf, the druid class is just much less exciting. Ok, it works just like the Beastshape or Elemental Form spells… boring. I say give the druid something to set it apart from just some ‘nature caster’ who gets a spell-like ability a couple times a day.
Let me reiterate a point that many of you also make – any class can be min/maxed into an overpowered corruption of itself by a creative player (cleric tank for example). It wasn’t the druid class that was broken, it was the polymorph spell that wildshape was tied to. The druid class lost out in the transition, but didn’t gain anything as the other classes did.
3.X Wild Shape + Natural Casting = unbalanced class. And that's before you start factoring in their crazy Prestige Classes, items, and Feats. The stat bonuses you get are insane. You can still have a potent melee Druid in Pathfinder, but they aren't anywhere near as powerful as they used to be - and that's a good thing.
Many of you point out that PF’s version of wildshape requires a druid to spend points into the physical stats (Str, Dex, Con) if they want to be effective melee fighters and therefore its balanced. I argue that the cost is that the druid now loses access to spell levels due to a lower Wis – does that sound balanced?
Let me reiterate a point that many of you also make – any class can be min/maxed into an overpowered corruption of itself by a creative player (cleric tank for example). It wasn’t the druid class that was broken, it was the polymorph spell that wildshape was tied to. The druid class lost out in the transition, but didn’t gain anything as the other classes did
Also, with the nerf, the druid class is just much less exciting. Ok, it works just like the Beastshape or Elemental Form spells… boring. I say give the druid something to set it apart from just some ‘nature caster’ who gets a spell-like ability a couple times a day.
How is it you have a lower wisdom, because you need to spend points in STR,DEX,CON? I dont see a chart limiting spell levels by wisdom anymore. Am I missing a chart? All I see is a chart limiting bonus spells by applicable stat.
Used to be if you didnt have an 18 INT you werent casting 9th level spells. Is that still represented somewhere?
with a 20 point build you can make a druid with
STR 15
DEX 12
CON 12
INT 10
WIS 16
CHR 9
Making him half orc would make it
STR 17
DEX 12
CON 12
INT 8
WIS 18
CHR 9
so a human could get +2 to wis as well. Either way you are looking at a Druid with decent combat stats (better as a half orc) and the ability to have MAX wisdom.
As the druid levels (like anyone) he has 5 chances to add to his character stats.
Throw 3-5 points into STR and you will always have enough STR to immitate the stronger larger beasts.
But you can basically spread them out anywhere, without affecting your ability to cast the most powerful spells.
the only thing you are "loosing" is maybe more "bonus spells" from wisdom.
But wanting good physcial melee capability and maximum bonus spells is just plain greedy.
How is it you have a lower wisdom, because you need to spend points in STR,DEX,CON? I dont see a chart limiting spell levels by wisdom anymore. Am I missing a chart? All I see is a chart limiting bonus spells by applicable stat.
Used to be if you didnt have an 18 INT you werent casting 9th level spells. Is that still represented somewhere?
I think Netherdrake007 was refererring to:
"To learn or cast a spell, a bard must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level." (page 16)
"To prepare or cast a spell, a cleric must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level." (page 22)
"To prepare or cast a spell, the druid must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level." (page 23)
"To prepare or cast a spell, a paladin must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level." (page 32)
"To prepare or cast a spell, a ranger must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level." (page 37)
"To learn or cast a spell, a sorcerer must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level." (page 41)
"To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the wizard must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level." (page 48)
This was present even in 3.x (although the Paladin used Wisdom instead of Charisma).
How is it you have a lower wisdom, because you need to spend points in STR,DEX,CON? I dont see a chart limiting spell levels by wisdom anymore. Am I missing a chart? All I see is a chart limiting bonus spells by applicable stat.
Used to be if you didnt have an 18 INT you werent casting 9th level spells. Is that still represented somewhere?
I think Netherdrake007 was refererring to:
"To learn or cast a spell, a bard must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level." (page 16)
"To prepare or cast a spell, a cleric must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level." (page 22)
"To prepare or cast a spell, the druid must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level." (page 23)
"To prepare or cast a spell, a paladin must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level." (page 32)
"To prepare or cast a spell, a ranger must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level." (page 37)
"To learn or cast a spell, a sorcerer must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level." (page 41)
"To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the wizard must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level." (page 48)
This was present even in 3.x (although the Paladin used Wisdom instead of Charisma).
Ok I knew it was somewhere, but someone lazy (WotC) didnt put it in a chart any more.
That STILL only means yout need a stat score of 19 to learn the best spells, and as I have shown in the build above, its quite easy to have th needed stats in the needed place at level one.
I’ve got a new one.
At 8th lvl Druids (Beastshape 3)gain the ability to change into magical beasts. Now that you are limited to only gaining “burrow 30 feet, climb 90 feet, fly 90 feet (good maneuverability), swim 90 feet, blindsense 30 feet, darkvision 60 feet, low-light vision, scent, constrict, ferocity, improved grab, jet, poison, pounce, rake, trample, trip, and web” what is the point of taking the form of a magical beast? Seems kind of lame.
I’ve got a new one.
At 8th lvl Druids (Beastshape 3)gain the ability to change into magical beasts. Now that you are limited to only gaining “burrow 30 feet, climb 90 feet, fly 90 feet (good maneuverability), swim 90 feet, blindsense 30 feet, darkvision 60 feet, low-light vision, scent, constrict, ferocity, improved grab, jet, poison, pounce, rake, trample, trip, and web” what is the point of taking the form of a magical beast? Seems kind of lame.
Ok Im lost what did the old wildshape let you do in the form of a magical beast that this one wont?