James explained it fairly well here:
Take this for example: An evil psion NPC has NO GAME REASON to throttle his PSP use.
And an NPC sorcerer has NO GAME REASON to throttle his spell use. And yet somehow it's different because the sorcerer has even more spells at his disposal...
If you really want to compare damaging spells, the sorcerer could use an Empowered Delayed Blast Fireball for 30d6 damage instead of Meteor Swarm. That brings the sorcerer up to 157.5 damage.
But I will concede that psions have the edge in creating one powerful damaging effect (overchanneling an Empowered Energy Missile power, for instance). The lowly sorcerer is stuck with second-class spells on his list like Mass Charm Monster, Polymorph Any Object, Maze, Forcecage and Gate. Poor guy... :~(
Yep that would put the sorcerer back into the lead on the damage front, leaving the only advantage the psion has is that the fully augmented energy wave would have a slightly higher DC (1-3).
I would rather be manifesting other powers at the psion's disposal rather than focusing on the damage dealing ones. If I was going to nova, I would probably rather go with non-damaging powers that I don't have to spend a maximum number of power points to as to be close to the magic user's damage totals.
But I was not arguing psionics were better than the sorcerer's casting, just that I did not think that the psion's nova abilty was not as weak as was stated.
James explained it fairly well here:
Take this for example: An evil psion NPC has NO GAME REASON to throttle his PSP use. He can unleash all of his PSPs on the party as 9th level spells, since he's only going to be in the game for one combat; he doesn't have to hold back to save points for later. Against a party of psionic characters, the psionic characters realize this and match his power output. Against a party of non-psionic characters, they'll quickly be outclassed. If they can survive until the psion enemy runs out of PSPs, they can crush him, but that's unlikely since the water pressure in the psion NPC's firehose remains at 100% until the end, whereas each round the non-psion PCs continue, their pressure is reducing.
If the metaphor for "winning the combat" is "who can empty their tank first," the psion wins because each round that progresses, he keeps emptying the pool at a constant rate of 100% of capacity, whereas the non-core...
Yes, and as pointed out by others, the damage output of a sorcerer is on par with the psion and they have longer endurance. Even after the psion is dry, the sorcerer is still going. As a PC, that is a win for the sorcerer (though I would personally count the psion's versitility in power point use as a balancing factor there).
As a villan, the arguement is nil. If a psion and a sorcerer of the same level deals roughly the same damage as an opponent before they are defeated then unused slots or power points mean nothing. As noted, to get the full effect of thier powers, psions pay points equal to their level. A 20th level psion must spend 20 power points to cast either a 6th level power at manifester level 20 or a 9th level power at manifester level 20.
That's my point -- the fact that a high-level sorcerer still has spell slots left after 10 rounds of casting his best spells makes him stronger than a psion, not weaker!A high level Sorcerer has a large number of spells available. Expending those at a rate of one per round, those would have to be two very long fights before the Sorcerer is fully empty. A Psion, however, can if fact be completely drained, and nothing more than a commoner with a crystal fetish after two 5-round fights.Also the ability to go Nova for 1-2 fights per day was also a problem.I honestly don't get this. Yes, a psion can use all of his power points in two fights. Similarly, a sorcerer can use all of his spell slots in two fights. I consider that a player issue, not a psionics vs. magic issue.
That makes the sorcerer weaker (1) while making the psion a bad party member (2).
(1)Sorcerer cannot match the damage output of a Nova Psion. Overchannel+metapsionic feats + Schism, + crystal casting powers + a high level power that is called something like Accelerate Time (Works similar to Time Stop but is a lower level power) can outdamage any legal preepic build you can make (and this is only using XPH, I have no idea what kind of broken PRCs, feats or powers are available in splatbooks). It does that for 3 (maybe 4 rounds per day). Meeting an enemy NPC Psion like that one is, barring bad luck, a TPK for a party that has no Psion of its own (or at least a couple of party members are dead).
(2)PC Psion that goes Nova can do so for 2-4 rounds per adventuring day (not combats, ROUNDS), and after that the player will want to rest. Now the party can ignore and push on or they can all rest, creating a game that stops a lot and often while making problems for the DM in that he has to send really powerful NPCs at them or use Psions himself (which brings us to (1))
But I was not arguing psionics were better than the sorcerer's casting, just that I did not think that the psion's nova abilty was not as weak as was stated.
I agree on that point. A few powers need to be rebalanced. On the other hand, a few of the powers that mimic spells are weaker, affecting either the psion only or having a much shorter duration (psionic moment of presciences comes to mind).
(1)Sorcerer cannot match the damage output of a Nova Psion. Overchannel+metapsionic feats + Schism, + crystal casting powers + a high level power that is called something like Accelerate Time (Works similar to Time Stop but is a lower level power) can outdamage any legal preepic build you can make
Right. And now we're getting to legitimate criticisms of specific powers and feats (Schism, Temporal Acceleration, overchanneling) that are unrelated to whether psionics uses a point-based system or not.
That's what I meant by complaints about the mechanics of psionics being 90% hype ("NOVA! NOVA!") and 10% genuine concerns.
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A query for psi-users.. I'm finding difficulty understanding the 'nova' thing. A psionic character is limited by the number of points he can spend on any given power, right? So, with all these metapsionic feats that require spent focus, how can a psion 'go nova'? Ive never really had much of a problem with psionics, with the exception of a few powers (hostile empathic transfer), so i apologize to those that do see it as a problem. Just curious is all..
I will admit that schism is a problem. I like the concept, but it is worse than simulacrum. At least simulacrum has a long set up to get a duplicate of the caster.
Personally, I would not allow the second mind to cast spells or activate powers, but I would let it use magic items or other actions.
I am not sure how to salvage Overchannel. The power boost is too good as it is written.
A query for psi-users.. I'm finding difficulty understanding the 'nova' thing. A psionic character is limited by the number of points he can spend on any given power, right? So, with all these metapsionic feats that require spent focus, how can a psion 'go nova'? Ive never really had much of a problem with psionics, with the exception of a few powers (hostile empathic transfer), so i apologize to those that do see it as a problem. Just curious is all..
First, Overchannel does not require the expenditure of your psionic focus. Instead you trade hp damage for a boost to caster level. At 15th level, you can gain a +3 caster level boost for 5d8 damage. Secondly, the Psionic Meditation feat can allow you to become focused as a move action (though it still provokes an attack of opportunity). This means you can gain your focus and then expend it when you use your standard action to manifest a power.
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A query for psi-users.. I'm finding difficulty understanding the 'nova' thing. A psionic character is limited by the number of points he can spend on any given power, right? So, with all these metapsionic feats that require spent focus, how can a psion 'go nova'? Ive never really had much of a problem with psionics, with the exception of a few powers (hostile empathic transfer), so i apologize to those that do see it as a problem. Just curious is all..First, Overchannel does not require the expenditure of your psionic focus. Instead you trade hp damage for a boost to caster level. At 15th level, you can gain a +3 caster level boost for 5d8 damage. Secondly, the Psionic Meditation feat can allow you to become focused as a move action (though it still provokes an attack of opportunity). This means you can gain your focus and then expend it when you use your standard action to manifest a power.
Thanks for the clarification! :)
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What Psionics means to me:
1.) I love Psionics, conceptually, flavorwise and feel it has a place in fantasy gaming.
just not Dungeons & Dragons Psionics.
2.)I would like to see a system that integrates with the Arcane & Divine Spellcasting systems without feeling like it was "bolted on" or a far better alternative which, in my opinion it is now as written.
3.)Since AD&D First Edition when Psionics was in the appendix in the back of the players Handbook it has been a "bolt on" I.M.H.O.
You folks have done a great job making Pathfinder backwards compatable however, in this case I think "broken" is "broken" and 3.0 3.5 Psionics is "broken".
4.) I would not buy a Psionics book unless the system worked with rather then against the existing Magic rules. The point system does not work alongside the Slot based system.
I am sure I am in the Minority with this oppinion & It is only my desire to answer your question not to start trouble.
Thank you
A query for psi-users.. I'm finding difficulty understanding the 'nova' thing. A psionic character is limited by the number of points he can spend on any given power, right? So, with all these metapsionic feats that require spent focus, how can a psion 'go nova'? Ive never really had much of a problem with psionics, with the exception of a few powers (hostile empathic transfer), so i apologize to those that do see it as a problem. Just curious is all..First, Overchannel does not require the expenditure of your psionic focus. Instead you trade hp damage for a boost to caster level. At 15th level, you can gain a +3 caster level boost for 5d8 damage. Secondly, the Psionic Meditation feat can allow you to become focused as a move action (though it still provokes an attack of opportunity). This means you can gain your focus and then expend it when you use your standard action to manifest a power.
In addition to this Schism gives extra power to cast per round and your Psicrystal can hold your focus (which allows you to use two metapsionic feats per round).
The everything gets crazy when you get Time Acceleration and when you Overchannel it to Maximize it for 4 (or 3) extra rounds every real round.Now you can understand what Nova means?!
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Schism essentially splits the psion's mind in two. It takes a standard action to manifest, and only lasts a round a level, so you've a round to set up 'mini-me' functioning.
Once it's up, mini-me can manifest powers, but as a psion six levels lower and it comes out of your pool. So our 20th level psion is now blowing through an additional 14 points a round, with mini-me still having to deal with spell resistance and the like.
Temporal acceleration lasts a round, and renders the psion shaken. It's a 6th level power, swift action. for 15 points (8th level spell) it lasts two rounds, and for 19 points (10th level spell) 3 rounds. It won't affect your Schism, so it gives you a free round at best, all the other rules for timestop apply.
Overchannel, psycrystal containment, and metapsionic feats are all feats, with all the cost.
Overchannel: at 15+ level, you can increase your manifester level by 3 (so our psion above could do the 3 round timestop at level 16) but he takes 5d8 points of damage. Plan to turn vigour on before you overchannel? More points more actions.
Talented will allow you to avoid damage for powers of level 3 or lower. So you can overchannel that mind thrust, but it blows your focus, so no psionic endowment (psionic type spell focus) for you.
I'm unaware of a feat allowing the petrock to manifest, though a clever PC could sink ranks into UPD and give it a dorje. It can hold a second focus though, using psicrystal affinity. This is the only (pre-epic) way the psion can stack two metapsionic feats on a power.
So our nova psion needs:
Schism (power)
Optionally Temporal Acceleration (power)
Psycrystal (feat)
Psycrystal containment (feat)
Overchannel (feat)
optionally Psionic meditation (feat)
Various metapsionic feats.
5 feats to allow him to throw 1 power with two metapsionic effects once, or one augment twice. He can only regain one focus a round, and that's with a move action, if he takes the feat. He's also burned 1/3 of his feats and bonus feats for this trick. He'd better be good at it. Also it takes a full round action to 'reload' the focus into the pet rock.
I'm sure someone else has a better nova build, but lets try the following.
level 20 Psion's initative account comes up, he manifests an overchannled temporal acceleration, blowing 23 points for 4 rounds, and 5d8 points of damage.
Round 1: Manifest Schism, heck lets blow a focus for a quicken, so that's 13 points and a focus. Then lets manifest true regen to start healing, then move to refocus. 15 more points.
Round 2: lets empower an energy wall, 7 points, then swift action solicit psycristal to maintain concentration on it, another 5 points.
Round 3: Ecto-shambler (quickened), 17 points, Astral Construct at 17 points. move action to refocus.
Round 4: Toss two more ACs out there, 36 points move action to refocus.
Round 5: Overchannel to release a greater endowed empowered ultrablast, doing 19d6*1.5 damage, 23 points, Schism does the same thing, 14d6, 14 points.
a psion will need at least one expanded knowlege feat to do the above, likely 2. It blows through 160 points, puts 3 combatants on the field, plus the shambler. 10d8 points of damage, at most 40 points healed by the true regeneration.
I think a Wizard can outdo it, without items.
Edit: Then the cr 20 wizard shakes his head, impressed with the effort wasted on his projected image or simaculum...
That makes the sorcerer weaker (1) while making the psion a bad party member (2).(1)Sorcerer cannot match the damage output of a Nova Psion. Overchannel+metapsionic feats + Schism, + crystal casting powers + a high level power that is called something like Accelerate Time (Works similar to Time Stop but is a lower level power) can outdamage any legal preepic build you can make (and this is only using XPH, I have no idea what kind of broken PRCs, feats or powers are available in splatbooks). It does that for 3 (maybe 4 rounds per day). Meeting an enemy NPC Psion like that one is, barring bad luck, a TPK for a party that has no Psion of its own (or at least a couple of party members are dead).
(2)PC Psion that goes Nova can do so for 2-4 rounds per adventuring day (not combats, ROUNDS), and after that the player will want to rest. Now the party can ignore and push on or they can all rest, creating a game that stops a lot and often while making problems for the DM in that he has to send really powerful NPCs at them or use Psions himself (which brings us to (1))
Point (1): There are plenty of overpowering aspects of divine and arcane magic as well, some might say these are even more powerful than a psion gone "super-nova", such as a cleric with divine meta-magic and persistant spell persiting spells such as rightous might and many others which are only intended to work a for a few rounds. Or the foresight+clerity+timestop cheese of the wizard which essintially allows the wizard to get the drop on anyone. But what did you notice about those two examples? Despite being common-known cheese I've never seen one actually used in game. There is a big difference between an overpowering build and an overpowering build actually being used, any DM with experience will see such cheese a mile away and can speak to the player about it, and psionics is no exception to this.
Point (2): This happens with magic users already, hence the term "15 minute adventuring day".
Truthfully, I simply consider psionics another version of magic, much like divine and arcane. And out of the three types I'd love to see divine go more than anything else, since it would allow for more character options (you could actually have a sane aetheist) and it would make alignment easier to house-rule out for those who don't like it (since the majority of alignment based spells are divine).
As for psionics? I like having them as a seperate form of magic (for one thing, they're actually different from arcane, unlike divine which is just the same except without spell failure).
Though what annoyes me is that psionics don't receive the same treatment as the other types of magic. I consider clerics and druids overpowering compared to combat classes, does that mean I should say that all divine magic is overpowered? I think it should be pointed out that many power-builders consider the wilder and soulknife very underpowered.
I think alot of folk also forget that in the XPH theres abilities for psions, but theres also abilities for non-psions. In fact, many of the feats listed there are increadably good for a party expected to face psions consistantly (or even NPC's if the DM thinks a psionic character is proving too much) such as the ability to damage Psionics who use telepathic powers, or to drain away power points.
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Secondly, the Psionic Meditation feat can allow you to become focused as a move action (though it still provokes an attack of opportunity). This means you can gain your focus and then expend it when you use your standard action to manifest a power.
This is why I was proposing weakening and/or splitting up Psionic Meditation. It's important for Psionic Warrior and Egoist builds that need to expend focus frequently to empower attacks, but it's overpowering when combined with metapsionics.
With the relatively low number of career feats in 3.5e, Psionic Meditation was already a strong choice for most psions. With the increased number in PF, I doubt any psion would NOT take it as written.
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Psionics, for me, was always a group event in and of itself.
For one player, it's what he liked. Vancian magic isn't for everyone, so having a Final Fantasy-esque magic system interested him.
For me, it was an interesting character type, and something I didn't know too much about (which only increased the interest). It also made a different character type (instead of the wizard archetypes, you had this mentalist type character).
The races and monsters involved always seemed more alien.
The rest of my players thought they were overpowered, but that character died just as much as everyone else, and I've seen more powerful wizards than Psions.
Finally, the only thing stopping me from playing psionics is the fact that my favourite (soulknife) seems weakened by not having 1/1 attack bonus (or at very least 7/8). I still really appreciate the extra feats that were in Dragon a couple years ago, but I still feel that the 3/4 attack bonus just hurts way, way too much (added to the low armour class from not having heavy armor)
One alternative could be to have SR and PR both work against the other force, but not as strong. Something along the lines of subtract 2 from SR against psionics and 2 from PR against magic. This would still have them work against the other so it's not like one creature type designed to resist "special effects" isn't completely vulnerable to the other type, but does have some of the flavor of they're different so a defense against one isn't as strong against the other.I like that a lot. A +5 shift on the SR check or some such. You'd go from a typical 50% chance of your ability working to a 75% chance - keeping the flavor of "you're not strong against this" but not entirely ruining the value of SR/power resistance.
Ditto.
-SNIP-
This is all nice but Psion can already Overchannel Temporal Acceleration to get 3 free rounds at lvl 16. That is one level before wizard and two levels before Sorcerers get Time Stop. And instead of using summons just blast put up effects that will instantly kill whatever is there once Time Acceleration ends.
That makes the sorcerer weaker (1) while making the psion a bad party member (2).(1)Sorcerer cannot match the damage output of a Nova Psion. Overchannel+metapsionic feats + Schism, + crystal casting powers + a high level power that is called something like Accelerate Time (Works similar to Time Stop but is a lower level power) can outdamage any legal preepic build you can make (and this is only using XPH, I have no idea what kind of broken PRCs, feats or powers are available in splatbooks). It does that for 3 (maybe 4 rounds per day). Meeting an enemy NPC Psion like that one is, barring bad luck, a TPK for a party that has no Psion of its own (or at least a couple of party members are dead).
(2)PC Psion that goes Nova can do so for 2-4 rounds per adventuring day (not combats, ROUNDS), and after that the player will want to rest. Now the party can ignore and push on or they can all rest, creating a game that stops a lot and often while making problems for the DM in that he has to send really powerful NPCs at them or use Psions himself (which brings us to (1))
Point (1): There are plenty of overpowering aspects of divine and arcane magic as well, some might say these are even more powerful than a psion gone "super-nova", such as a cleric with divine meta-magic and persistant spell persiting spells such as rightous might and many others which are only intended to work a for a few rounds. Or the foresight+clerity+timestop cheese of the wizard which essintially allows the wizard to get the drop on anyone. But what did you notice about those two examples? Despite being common-known cheese I've never seen one actually used in game. There is a big difference between an overpowering build and an overpowering build actually being used, any DM with experience will see such cheese a mile away and can speak to the player about it, and psionics is no exception to this.
Point (2): This happens with magic users already, hence the term "15 minute adventuring day".
Truthfully, I...
(1)Nope, do not any core spells that can let wizards or clerics do what a Psion can. Especially now in Pathfinder.
Divine Metamagic is not Core. Time Stop only comes into play at lvl 17+. Psion can Nova before that time.(2)Still better then 4 rounds day!
-SNIP-This is all nice but Psion can already Overchannel Temporal Acceleration to get 3 free rounds at lvl 16. That is one level before wizard and two levels before Sorcerers get Time Stop. And instead of using summons just blast put up effects that will instantly kill whatever is there once Time Acceleration ends.
From the SRD:
While your temporal acceleration is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and powers. This means you cannot target a creature with any attack or power. However, a power you manifest that affects an area and has a duration longer than the remaining duration of your temporal acceleration has its normal effect on creatures in the area once this power ends.
So the psion cannot drop instant damge effects while using temporal acceleration. I have run a psion using tempral acceleration. More often then not he used it to buff/heal himself.
Edit: Also, while using temporal acceleration, the "second mind" from schism is froze and unable to act.
From the SRD:
Splintered or partitioned minds within your own mind, such as might be in effect through the use of powers such as schism, are not temporally speeded up, even if your second mind manifested this power (your primary mind gains the benefit, while your second mind remains stuck in the standard time frame).
(1)Nope, do not any core spells that can let wizards or clerics do what a Psion can. Especially now in Pathfinder.
Divine Metamagic is not Core. Time Stop only comes into play at lvl 17+. Psion can Nova before that time.(2)Still better then 4 rounds day!
(1)Few core spells in the examples I listed, that makes them bad examples, not a bad point. But even then, it's still somthing to take into account. Arcanists and divine spellcaters get better with every splatbook, psionics don't. If psionics aren't in PRGP core, whats to say the same won't apply when they release splatbooks too? Besides, spells like rightous might are overpowering enough on their own anyway.
(2)Core spellcasters can nova for longer, since it's not jsut their 9th level spells that are overpowering. Have you ever played a acranist at hgih levels? I have, running out of overpowering spells isn't a factor.
If enough of the Pathfinder audience likes Psionics then I completely understand putting out material to support it. However, I would appreciate the content to be easy to adapt or provide non-Psionic equivalents for the non-Psionics campaigns.
I don't think you have anything to worry about. I remember seeing an adventure with a psionic villain in a Paizo-published issue of Dungeon magazine, and the adventure did not require you to know anything except the Core rules. There was some text in the villain's description explaining how specific abilities the villain could use worked, but it was entirely self-contained. You didn't need the psionics rules as a whole, and were free to rule that the villain's powers were just supernatural abilities unique to that particular villain.
What is an absolute deal-breaker?
Psionic races.
I agree with Snobi here (though I don't know that I would be as absolute as he is). In general, the psionic races turn me off. I'd rather see a psionic system that does not assume the addition of new PC races into the campaign world unless an actual variant campaign world is part of the package. If I add psionics to my Golarion campaign, I do not want to have to make room for a bunch of previously unknown PC races.
On the other hand, I have no problem at all with new races in a more campaign specific supplement dealing with a world removed from Golarion itself (or from a default D&D/Pathfinder world). In fact, I think that a sword & planet type rulebook with a Castrovel and Akiton settings would be real cool, and would be a good place for some of the weirder psionic creatures.
For that matter, this thread would seem to indicate that I am a minority in this, I don't particulatly care for all of the new psionic classes either. I think that psionics should be first and foremost about psions; I do not need or want a psionic variant for every niche in the party.
Finally, regarding the nova and psion vs sorcerer debate that has been raging, I agree with Thraxus that this is pretty much a non-issue for villains. In all my years of gaming, I can probably count on one hand the number of times I have seen a battle with a caster/manifester last long enough that running out of powers was an issue unless the villain in question was so extremely low level (in which case the discrepancy would is so minor as to be inconsequential).
Also, I have to say that reading this thread has made me feel like psionics is the new Greyhawk; while both have a very significant fan base, it seems as if opinions are so divided that to please even a significant majority of the fanbase may well be impossible.
I like the 3.5 system and think there is a value in refining it, both in and off itself as well as to maintain backwards compatability. That said, I would still check out a new system and it could win me over if it was good. However, as someone else said upthread, it doesn't really seem like anyone at Paizo is that passionate about psionics so I wonder whether or not the project should really be taken on at all.
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I really have never cared much for Psionics and have not really tested out any system strongly as they always were too much work to bring in or run smoothly. As such, I have no real horse in this race of a thread. Worse yet, the idea of Psionics never really struck my fancy to begin with. If I want Mind Tricks, I play SAGA Star Wars. :)
Bottom line for me as feedback is that I'd take a look at anything Paizo puts out because I trust them as a company. Even a book that I end up not using at all which was purchased from Paizo is a good investment to me, right now. I have the means (thankfully in these times - my condolences and best wishes to those who temporarily lost those means over the holidays!!) and I know every sale counts. I want Paizo to do what they have been doing for the last few years as long as possible.
So all that said, I trust you all to make the right decision. If pressed, my design ethos for systems like this are really based on ease of running a game. Please make it easy to run in a mixed group (i.e. 1 psionic in a party of 4 PCs, for instance), easy to incorporate in a world realistically, easy to balance power levels with existing core classes/powers.
But there I think I'm preaching to the choir.
Hence the trust. ;)
And the Psion is going to nova what exactly? They don't have delayed blast fireball.
Sorry archangel, psions can nova, but not as well as wizards/sorcers w.o the (in)complete psionic
Your Build was good but not good enough.
At lvl 16:
Round 1: Overchannel(+3) Time Acceleration (1 quickened Vigor + 3 lvl 9 astral constructs (overchannel +1) +2 quickened lvl 7 constructs (Overchannel +3))+ Schism
Round 2: Overchannel Blast+ Schism Overchannel Blast + quickened Overchannel Blast (if the target is alive by then) after getting attacked by 12 attacks that do more then decent damage.
These two rounds cost:
Round 1: 19 + (10+ 17x3 + 13x2) + 7 = 113
Round 2: 19 + 13 + 19 = 51
Total: 164 mana out of 285.
So as I said. With Nova Psion can fight 3-4 rounds per day. Damage output in those two rounds is more then any other core lvl 16 class can do.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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1 swift action a round. Quickened = swift action.
"Casting a quickened spell is a swift action. In addition, casting any spell with a casting time of 1 swift action is a swift action. "
as has been shown, schism doesn't work in temporal acceleration.
you can summon 1 Astral construct with 1 application of the power.
So lets look at your build, but oh, I don't know, lets follow the rules this time.
Round 1: Swift action temporal acceleration, overchannel it for 3 levels, so our 16th level psion takes 5d8 points of damage and has two rounds. Then manifest Schism.
Round 2: Blows a focus to quicken manifest vigour, giving him 50 HP. Now we'll manifest a level 9 AC, we'll overchannel again, so that's now 10d8 points of damage taken.
Round 3: Time resumes, Blows a second focus to throw a quickened overchanneled energy wave, 19 points, another 5d8 damage, for 13d8. Standard energy wave for 16d8 Schism'd Energy ball for 10d8. (Schism casts as 6 levels lower, remember?)
you've taken 15d8 points of damage burned two focuses, 106 power points. If you want to overchannel more, your next character will appriciate the sacrifice. Takes Psionic meditation, two expanded knowleges, maybe even psycrystal and psycrystal containment. Between 4 and 6 feats.
All your example has proved is 1) you don't know the psionic rules, and 2) even if you did, this character has burned about half their total feats with the sole purpose of going nova.
Psionics aren't broken. People who can't follow rules break them.
Emm, Temporal Acceleration gives you 3 rounds to play with.
I see no reason not to use quicken on each of those rounds! And you can get the focus back as a move action on each of those rounds. And your Psicrystal can hold one focus so you can even do crazier stuff.
Also on the 2nd round I forgot to empower two of the blasts. One with a focus from previous round and one after you spend a move action that round. Best to save the focus from the Crystal for the 2nd round quicken.
Man, your really should read twice what you write before clicking post (like saying Temporal Acceleration only giving 2 rounds).
Between Vigor and high Con with +6 Con Item the damage you receive is nothing. Especially to the damage your target will receive in its round.
Any unbuffed caster is toast. Rogues, Bards and anyone with lower Con is toast as well. Against those with evasion just use some of the Fort save powers or touch ones. Attack bonus of Constructs is crazy, they will not miss unbuffed opponents.
I used two standard Psionic Powers (temporal acceleration and schism), and standard feats (Overchannel, Quicken, Empower and the feat to recover focus as move action). I see nothing broken here.
If this is broken I can see you screaming Faul whenever a wizard casts Improved Invisibility :D
To me, Psionics means a preternatural power that stems from the mind (and perhaps the body). That means, Psionics should have ephemeral effects that last only as long as the Psionics-practitioner (Psionicist, Psion, whoever) keeps on concentrating. It also means, that Psionics shouldn't be able to summon creatures, conjure objects, or create material or quasi-material materials (such as acid).
Psionics should be good at:Mental Abilities - Telepathy, Mind Control, Mind Enhancement, etc.
Own Bodily Control - Metamorphosis, Bodily Enhancement, etc.
Direct Kinetic Effects - Telekinesis... Ripping Things Apart, Moving Things, Fine Manipulation
Pure energy effects - Electricity, Heat but not Fire - definitely NOT acidAll Psionic effects should have a duration of either instantaneous or concentration (which might require spending Psionic Power Points, if these are retained in the new system)
Also, and this is important, Psionics should NOT be flashy. It needs to be subtle and have no side 'manifestations' such as accompanying flashes and so on. It should also not require components other than concentration (though perhaps chanting to get concentrated, or pointing a hand on the object being moved to help concentrate on it - perhaps these could provide some bonuses - or the absence of these penalties)
Finally (for now), Psionics needs to be mechanically differentiated from magic. A Vancian system for Psionics is unacceptable (and I like the Vancian system for magic). Actually, the current 3.5E Psionics system is sufficiently mechanically differentiated from magic - it just lacks in these other areas mentioned above - it feels like another form of magic that can do all the same things as spells - that's a big problem for me.
I have to agree with this assessment of psionics minus the spending of additional power points to maintain a power (like the concentration aspect though). I cringe when I see straight up psionic versions of PHB spells. Psionics needs its own niche (i.e. what clerics are to healing and turning undead psions should be to telepathy and telekinesis). I'd liked the feel of 2e psionics. It captured the flavor well but failed mechanically. 3.5 mechanics are much better but was bland when it came to the selection of powers and the pscionic elements they tried to represent.
I like the augmentation options for psionics but feel that the number of power points psions (not so much the case for psychic warriors) should either be scaled back or that the number of power points that a psionic character can spend on a power (especially damage dealing ones) should be limited by the base cost of the plus the level of the power and not the manifester level of the character.
Example: Max amount of power points that could be spent on a 2nd-level power would be 5 power points (3 base cost + 2 for level of power) without the help of feats or psionic items. The number of power points a manifester could spend on powers that are from his primary discipline could be base cost plus twice the level of the power.
Just thinking out loud, but guess what I'm getting at is that I don't think that max power point expenditure equal to manifester level is the way to go.
My two copper anyway.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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You have schism working in the Temporal acceleration it doesn't. you apparently compressed multiple rounds of accelleration into one round.
you want to overchannel everything? that's 45d8 points of damage. 203 points on average, since you only get two actions a round, not 3. I know I know... Math is hard. oh and don't forget the DC 33(on average)concentration check each time you manifest. Astral Construct and Schism are discipline specific powers, so you spend a feat to get one, if not both.
You are entitled to your own opinion, not to your own rules.
can psions nova? Yes. Are they as devistating as you make out? no, since we have these funny things called rules.
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and so on (and so, get rid of the 'quicken the power' built INSIDE the power itself... what is the purpose of the Feat, if most powers can do it anyway ???)The number of powers that have built-in Quicken is fairly limited, and IIRC mostly self-buffs. That's kind of necessary to make the Psychic Warrior work, since he'd otherwise spend the first few rounds of any combat only buffing himself instead of actually doing something useful.
Random thought occured to me here.
First the facts about my knowledge of psionics: only a little played, like the concept, prefer complete or partial transparency for ease of integration.
I think psionic practitioners would view spellcasters as crippled psionicists - they need all this extraneous ritual and/or emotion to access their natural powers, whereas psionicists have overcome these mental blocks and have access to the "true" power. This explains, from a simulationist perspective, their ability to augment, easier manifestation of powers, extra swift casting mentioned above - in short their versatility comes froma lack of dependence on "tricks" to access their own power.
The price they pay is their lack of dependence on the "crutches" of magical ritual or divine assistance is they only have their own resources to work with - and exhaust themselves because while their access to power is not obscured by these crutches, they also don't lean on them for support in casting.
Dunno that this seriously affects any mechanics, but I think it gives fun fluff to psionic vs. non-psionic characters and cultures.
::shrug::
YMMV.
The way I see it, if Paizo feels strongly that they can offer a different and quality Psionic system, then go for it. Afterall, this book would be a "supplement" in the sense that you can use it or XPH, whichever you like.
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You have schism working in the Temporal acceleration it doesn't. you apparently compressed multiple rounds of accelleration into one round.
you want to overchannel everything? that's 45d8 points of damage. 203 points on average, since you only get two actions a round, not 3. I know I know... Math is hard. oh and don't forget the DC 33(on average)concentration check each time you manifest. Astral Construct and Schism are discipline specific powers, so you spend a feat to get one, if not both.
You are entitled to your own opinion, not to your own rules.
can psions nova? Yes. Are they as devistating as you make out? no, since we have these funny things called rules.
I'm not going to enter this argument, but I'd like to point out that I don't think it's terribly relevant either way. You're talking about a build that has sacrificed the majority of their advancement JUST for the purpose of being good at nova-ing. I'm not sure I see the beef with a character that has poured a lot of his advancement into being able to nova, is in fact able to nova.
I'm much more interested in the potential for "normal case" abuse, i.e. could a relatively standard psion (not one specifically engineered for nova-ing) be overpowered with respect to nova-ing? Maybe, maybe not. As I've said before in this thread, I think the major source of abuse by "normal" psions is Psionic Meditation, which is such an obvious choice because it essentially obviates one of the major throttles of psionic power output. Schism could be another target.
In my personal experience, I've never seen a psion take Overchannel. Most psions I've seen were played more like wizards or sorcerers in that they were pretty frail, and their players wouldn't have wanted to risk damaging themselves.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Jason, you and I are in agreement on the former. If someone builds 1/3 of their resources into a trick, it should work. I've disected archangel's arguement, I'm done with it.
I never took overchannel because needing those 1-3 extra points was seldom worth it, and the damage (and concentration) weren't.
Psonics means to me in a fantasy setting "Mind Magic" We have Farseeing/Forseeing (seer) Mindspeaking/healing (Telepathy) Fetching (Nomad) Firestarting (Kineticist) Psychic healers/surgeons are a classic trope (unless you want to call Haiti 'sci-fi') and biofeedback and the like is a classic egotist trope. Shapers are the most 'sci-fi/superhero' but even then, seances report ectoplasm, and if the astral is already manipulated mentally (int = speed) then drawing ectoplasm to make constructs, armor, fire, isn't much of a reach.
Psychic warriors and wilders also have their mythical/fictional counterparts. From fictionalized zen masters and mystics to Charlie.
Aside: Can we have a revised wilder with access to all powers? I always wanted a level 1 wilder with her 'imaginary friend' ie astral construct.
soulknives, well, Psylocke is the most famous I think, but again we have precidents in anime and fiction. Plus it's just cool
You have schism working in the Temporal acceleration it doesn't. you apparently compressed multiple rounds of accelleration into one round.
you want to overchannel everything? that's 45d8 points of damage. 203 points on average, since you only get two actions a round, not 3. I know I know... Math is hard. oh and don't forget the DC 33(on average)concentration check each time you manifest. Astral Construct and Schism are discipline specific powers, so you spend a feat to get one, if not both.
You are entitled to your own opinion, not to your own rules.
can psions nova? Yes. Are they as devistating as you make out? no, since we have these funny things called rules.
No I do not. I have been using quickened (with the Quicken Power feat) powers each round of Time Acceleration. Schism is only used on round 2 (real round 2) together with Quicken power. I have put all the actions of Time Acceleration under Round 1. And the damage taken is 33d8. Average 148 damage. Survivable with Vigor and decent Con.
And I do like your tone, especially since it has been you all the time reading (or understand) it wrong. I do not see a problem is spending feats to get really good powers like Astral or Schism. Almost all Psions spend feats to get some cool powers from different disciplines.
You have schism working in the Temporal acceleration it doesn't. you apparently compressed multiple rounds of accelleration into one round.
you want to overchannel everything? that's 45d8 points of damage. 203 points on average, since you only get two actions a round, not 3. I know I know... Math is hard. oh and don't forget the DC 33(on average)concentration check each time you manifest. Astral Construct and Schism are discipline specific powers, so you spend a feat to get one, if not both.
You are entitled to your own opinion, not to your own rules.
can psions nova? Yes. Are they as devistating as you make out? no, since we have these funny things called rules.
I'm not going to enter this argument, but I'd like to point out that I don't think it's terribly relevant either way. You're talking about a build that has sacrificed the majority of their advancement JUST for the purpose of being good at nova-ing. I'm not sure I see the beef with a character that has poured a lot of his advancement into being able to nova, is in fact able to nova.
I'm much more interested in the potential for "normal case" abuse, i.e. could a relatively standard psion (not one specifically engineered for nova-ing) be overpowered with respect to nova-ing? Maybe, maybe not. As I've said before in this thread, I think the major source of abuse by "normal" psions is Psionic Meditation, which is such an obvious choice because it essentially obviates one of the major throttles of psionic power output. Schism could be another target.
In my personal experience, I've never seen a psion take Overchannel. Most psions I've seen were played more like wizards or sorcerers in that they were pretty frail, and their players wouldn't have wanted to risk damaging themselves.
Schism definitely needs to go, Overchannel as well. Vigor is too powerful, and some of the Kineticist powers are too good.
That power that lets you redo your character also needs to be erased from existence.Rest of them are more or less OK.
As for sacrificed advancement: What are you talking about? The build took standard feats and power selections. Nothing in the build needed to sacrifice anything. OK Overchannel might not be a common choice but still you do not sacrifice anything if you take it. Spending feats to get Astral Construct and Schism are probably two of the best spent feats. While Psionic Meditation (or whatever it is called) is a must feat if you plan to use any MetaPsionics (which I do not see why you wouldn't). MetaPsionic feats like Empower and Quicken are standard that almost all arcane casters take as well.
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As for sacrificed advancement: What are you talking about? The build took standard feats and power selections. Nothing in the build needed to sacrifice anything. OK Overchannel might not be a common choice but still you do not sacrifice anything if you take it. Spending feats to get Astral Construct and Schism are probably two of the best spent feats. While Psionic Meditation (or whatever it is called) is a must feat if you plan to use any MetaPsionics (which I do not see why you wouldn't). MetaPsionic feats like Empower and Quicken are standard that almost all arcane casters take as we
He has chosen to invest a large portion of his advancement (mostly feats) into abilities that make him better at nova-ing, as opposed to putting them into more generally useful options.
My point is that this is not a "normal" psion. This is a psion who has deliberately tried to be good at nova-ing. Overchannel is simply not very common except for psions who deliberately try to be good at nova-ing. Same for taking Expanded Knowledge to get nova-able powers.
Now, psions DO frequently take Psionic Meditation, even if they're not deliberately trying to nova. Same for metapsionics. Hence my concern over whether "normal" psions are overpowered or not.
In summary: I have absolutely no problem with the fact that a psion who invests a signficant number of feats for the sole purpose of being good at nova-ing is, in fact, good at nova-ing. I am more concerned about psions who don't go out of their way to do so still being good at it.
Maybe it would be better to put this discussion, if it is going on for much longer, about making a cleaner burning psion into an another thread to keep this more on what psionics means to people.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Maybe it would be better to put this discussion, if it is going on for much longer, about making a cleaner burning psion into an another thread to keep this more on what psionics means to people.
Indeed, which is why I dropped archangel.
Though I've been reading Villians of Pact Magic today with its religious inquistion theme. in that tone, 'clean burning psion' just sounds wrong...
The way I see it, if Paizo feels strongly that they can offer a different and quality Psionic system, then go for it. Afterall, this book would be a "supplement" in the sense that you can use it or XPH, whichever you like.
Except that one any future Pathfinder products that feature psionics would presumably use it, which makes it not quite as simple as you indicate.
I cringe when I see straight up psionic versions of PHB spells. Psionics needs its own niche...
I agree that psionics should have its own niche and play up telepathy, telekinesis, and other types of powers associated with the mind and should steer clear of aping other types of magic. However if powers do end up duplicating any spells, I would very much prefer to see them reprinted so that a psioncist player does not need to constantly refer back to the core rulebook spell list. I would gladly pay more for a larger book to avoid this issue. It's doubly annoying when there are some changes and the power description reads "as _____ spell except for....X, Y, & Z". Just give the description in one place please.
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What does Psionics mean to me...
the third side of the triangle...
Divine Magic- Magic of the Outer Planar universe...ie Magic fueled by other entities
Arcane Magic- Magic of the Intra Planar Universe...ie magic fueled by finding the secrets to unlock natural or world magic
Psionic magic- Magic of the individual....ie magic fueled by the self
What Id like to see is a mechanic similar to Cleric Domains/Wizard Schools/Sorceror Bloodlines created for the Disciplines giving an SU or two or three, and a handful of bonus spells.
Id like to see the regurgitation of a more usable Wild Talent (shades of 2nd Ed)...that anyone can have (and not that pale comparison of a feat that gives 1 1st level Psionic power with 2 power points...) You can make a Feat, but Make it provide more power points so as to make the ability more usable.
Id like to see 4 classes
Psion (with Disciplines)
Psychic Warrior (a little more beefed up)
Psychic Healer (can transfer Power Points into healing effects....or damaging)
-Psychic Skill character- (cant think of a name..and I dont like Lurk) This character would have more skills and his psychic skills would be more utilitarian...
Id like to do away with most the races and add only 3 + 1
1st the +1....The Elan (make that an effect of taking a non-psi race and making them psi...Half Orc Elan..Human Elan...etc. By becoming a Psionic Class it changes you and makes you be out of sorts with others of your race. ...do away with the -2 to Cha, The 'aberration' part, Resistance....Keep- Naturally Psionic, Resilience, Repletion, and change Favored Classes of that race to Psionic Classes (Wizard/Sorceror become Psion...Fighter/Barbarian becomes Psychic Warrior...etc...)...then take those three new Psi parts we are keeping and drop 3 racial abilities...
For Example: Elan Human- loses Martial Weapon, Skilled, and the bonus feat. Elan Elf- loses Elvish Weapons, Resistant to sleep, and Resistant to charm....specify what is lost for each race so its not up for interpretation.
The other three races to keep...Duergar, Xeph, Gith (merge Githezerai and Githyanki for our purposes..and come up with a new name..since I think they arent open gaming...)
Keep Psionic based off a 'spell point' system, to make them diferent.
bring the psi powers in line with spells of the same level, but allow boosting or lowering effect by altering the spell points.
Do away with diferent skills but add the usage of certain skills for psionic usage....Psicraft goes into Spellcraft. Use Psionic Device goes into Use Magic Device. Knowledge Psionics merges with Knowledge Arcanna. Autohypnosis merges with Sense Motive (consider you are senseing your own motives ;) )
Do away with Psi-Crystal as Familiars..but add a couple Psionic Familiars (I have one called the Larthing ;) that I created) Change the dynamics of what a Psicrystal is...make it more of like the Arcane Bond a Wizard can take.
Do away with Dorjes....arent they just wands of crystal anyway?
Same with Skins....Can you say Cloak or robe?
in otherwords make the magic items merge in type...but using psi powers.
I want Psionics, I want them to feel different. However, they dont need to 'not fit'....make them fit.
my 2 cents.
You have schism working in the Temporal acceleration it doesn't. you apparently compressed multiple rounds of accelleration into one round.
you want to overchannel everything? that's 45d8 points of damage. 203 points on average, since you only get two actions a round, not 3. I know I know... Math is hard. oh and don't forget the DC 33(on average)concentration check each time you manifest. Astral Construct and Schism are discipline specific powers, so you spend a feat to get one, if not both.
You are entitled to your own opinion, not to your own rules.
can psions nova? Yes. Are they as devistating as you make out? no, since we have these funny things called rules.
No I do not. I have been using quickened (with the Quicken Power feat) powers each round of Time Acceleration. Schism is only used on round 2 (real round 2) together with Quicken power. I have put all the actions of Time Acceleration under Round 1. And the damage taken is 33d8. Average 148 damage. Survivable with Vigor and decent Con.
And I do like your tone, especially since it has been you all the time reading (or understand) it wrong. I do not see a problem is spending feats to get really good powers like Astral or Schism. Almost all Psions spend feats to get some cool powers from different disciplines.
If you anyone is going to go on about how over powered psionics are could you at least please keep up on the rules, seriously. Spouting out things as if they are facts when you are in reality wrong is how most of the "OMG Psionics are overpowered" got spread in the first place. If you don't take the time to actually read up on a subject you just start to sound like you have a chip on your shoulder and are completely unwilling/unable to see that you could possibly be wrong. It was errata'd so you CANNOT summon multiple astral constructs unless you are a specific PrC (that is not open content - so it was basically a nerf to the SRD astral construct power), even then you can only have 2 at most and I think you lose manifester levels and don't get that ability until the end (I don't have the book with me to tell you for sure). Wizards or ANY OTHER CASTER have no restrictions on the summon XYZ spells so that means... YES an arcane spell caster will be able to do this particular trick MUCH better than a psion would -Archangel-.
Also someone had mentioned that a psion generally relies on augmented low level powers to deal deal damage however I don't think anyone has mentioned what that means to a psion. Any first level power augmented up to 20+ power points is still a 1st level power, it isn't heightened automatically. Lesser / Globe of Invulnerability, Spell turning, any thing that marks effects by level will decimate a psions offensive capabilities until late game where casters rule everything anyways. And honestly at that point how many games have you ever been in where the casters sit 75' away and toss spells back and forth for over 4 rounds?? Late game really isn't a matter of damage output to be completely honest. I won't say that a psion might not do more damage on average over 20 rounds than a wizard or sorcerer but that isn't a realistic combat by an stretch of the imagination.
As for 3.5 Psionics, they are good. Look at Untapped Potential for some tweaks/fixes. If you are going to do Psionics - DO THEM. Don't make a single book and put the token "you can use this with..." in there. Look to Eberron, the psionic race they did in there was great. There was background, there was flavor and it was part of the campaign world. Not some place stuck in some remote area with some people who could use these abilities. They had a place and it made sense. Their abilities made sense too. It wasn't like the psionic races in XPH where it was a "tack on +1pp and some minor power and now you have a psionic race!" pretty much across the board. It was a part of the story in Eberron not some addon attached with duct tape and that made all the difference to me. I bought EVERY Eberron book mainly due to that, psionics wasn't some bastard step child. I dare say every book had something crunch or fluff to do with psionics. You do it justice like that and it will sell.
Now if you aren't going to go that extra mile for psionics or want to nerf them down because of the arcane caster fanboi's that are vocal against psionics, I would honestly say don't do anything other than a free PDF that updates psionics as they are to Pathfinder standards (which pretty much already exists from some very helpful poster here). I would much rather use that than have someone who isn't as "into" psionics as many of us who want to see them are, possibly ruin them with another incarnation or overbalancing/nerfing them. Honestly while I would like to see what the good folks at Paizo would do with them(psionics), some of the things I've seen James say makes me wonder if they would meet my (admittedly high) expectations. Untapped potential is really really good. I have the pdf of everything they offer that way (some of the books are pretty big, its easier on the laptop) and would happily use that in Pathfinder if they chose to not do anything with psionics.
Another option would be the Psyhic class from Green Ronin? I bought the handbook from Paizo and am wishing I bought the advanced players handbook for my DM now lol. It looked promising and I showed it to our DM and he has been "testing" it with an NPC the last several games because he really liked the idea (he confiscated my book /sadface).