Yes, Eberron did a fabulous job with psionics as a whole - Secrets of Sarlona is one of my favorite Campaign Setting books.
I agree that the XPH needs a little polish, not a thorough rewriting. I'm strongly campaigning for that. I'd be okay without the Wilder at all - I've excluded it from my CS due to an attempt to make all three forces of magic tied exclusively to two stats (Arcane has INT and CHA, Divine has WIS and CHA, Psionics has INT and WIS) and because it does penalize you more as you get higher in level, but I'm all for seeing it rebalanced.
I think the key is that psionics represents an opportunity for those who aren't huge fans of Vancian casting to play casters, as well as an opportunity for those who like the flavor to play psions. Forcing it into the Vancian mold would be a mistake. I know the good folks at Paizo have been on record as saying that they like Vancian magic because it's a staple of D&D, but not everyone likes it as much, and some outright hate it. I think it'd be a mistake to take the one "core" non-vancian caster and turn them into one. On top of all the fans of the flavor psionics gives your character that just can't be as well modeled with arcanists or divine casters.
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To me, psionics means E.S.P.
For myself, I think it should be ultra rare as it was back in 1st Edition. The chance of being able to possess real world E.S.P. was about the same as in the game, because you had to roll for the possibility of getting it and that roll was insanely hard to get. If a person was lucky enough to get it, then they had it. All that was left was to determine how much power they had, and that was all they would ever get. Personally, I don't know anyone that has E.S.P in my real world.
E.S.P. (psionics) seems more Sci-Fi than Fantasy, but who cares about flavor.
When I saw later editions of psionics for the first time, I knew what it was. It was a spell-point-buy-system and nothing more. For a long time people had been using such a system instead of the traditional "Pick your spells" for the day. Psionic classes was a concession to those that wanted another system for their spells. Naturally, it had to have a banner to put it under, and there you have psionics becoming mainstream. The psionic hobbit was born. Giving players the choice to be psionic really took away from the mystique. The mindflayers were now unique only because they could munch a brain.
I don't take lightly the process of making this book. It requires your time and resources which I would rather see spent on your campaign world Golarion. If I could dissuade you from taking this course, I would. However, there are some creatures that need psionic rules.
I would love to see a Hardcover about anything but this, but I know we are going ahead for the audience that loves spell points.....eer, aah ahem, power points. If you could make it a slim 64 pager, I sure would be happy.
Zuxius
What he said. 8^)This.1) Take the existing psionics rules.
2) Actually playtest them. In a big, open playtest if necessary*.
3) Plug up all of the infinite-this, nova-that loopholes.
4) Remove unnecessary redundancy. (Psionic item creation feats, I'm looking at you.)
+2
The psionics point system worked better than the magic system IMHO. Fine tune it, modify base classes/add new ones, change the items, etc.
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I'm going to have to disagree with a lot of the other posters. For me a lot of the appeal of psionics (as a player) is that it *feels* different than magic. I honestly don't think I would be at all interested in a system that made powers work just like spells. Note that I'm not arguing against psionics-magic transparency, which I think is good, but allowing the psionics mechanics to feel like their own thing, rather than reskins of the sorcerer or wizard.
Exactly this. One of the reasons I don't want to play 4e is that all the classes 'feel' the same to me. If I want to play a Wizard then I will. If I want to play a Psion, I don't want to play a Wizard wearing a Psion costume.
When I think of psionics in general, I think of mind flayers and aboleths.
When I think of psionic characters, I think of wild talents and 2nd edition.
When I think of 3d edition psionics, I grow pale. The idea of playing in a campaign as a player where another player is a psion is enough for me to depart that campaign simply knowing the amount of power that psion will have.
Psionics as a concept are great but, to me, psions should be on a powerlevel on par with the sorcerer. As in, a wizard should still be able to put down a psion in a duel of spells/powers. As things are with present psions, Just using feats and abilities from the expanded psionics handbook, a psion is a one-man army so long as he has power points, starting at very low levels with the ridiculous vigor power which allows you to keep boosting yourself with ridiculous amounts of temp hp so long as you have 2-3 power points.
I like the versatility of psionic powers as a mechanic, but not as balance.
Contributor
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Feel and style are more important to me than specific mechanics, assuming nothing breaks the game and the mechanics support that feel and style.
For example, I want my psionics to play like they're from Sterling Lanier's book, Hiero's Journey, and I want the mechanics to support that. If its backwards compatible with the XPH, all the better. Though, I haven't even begun to think about how to accomplish that.
I would also like my psionics to be robust enough that, as an option, I could drop magic out all together and have a psionics only campaign. Though only as an option.
My 2 cp.
I feel that psionics offers a non-Vancian system of spellcasting. Rather than magical blood, exhaustive study, or divine prayer, psionics represents strength of will and human potential.
I believe psionics would work best if most of the powers that simply duplicate wizard spells with more flexibility should be eliminated. (energy _, I'm looking at you!)
The point-based system is inherently more flexible and offers PC's more power than Vancian casting so I can understand why many players and GM's shy away from it as unfair. I do like the core concept, though.
What I would like to see is a system where, similar to Wild Talents in previous editions, a character could begin play with a few psionic talents. I would like to see a much shorter list of available powers, but have them retain the ability to be "pumped up" by greater point expenditure at high level. For example, a beginner at Telekinesis might be able to lift 1/4 their carry limit. As they level, my spending more points they might be able to use their full strength telekinetically, and at high level lift thousands of pounds.
Powers could even be purchased as Feats alongside a basic character class. Perhaps Psionic Aptitude could be a starting feat that gives a character a base Power Point pool (based on highest of Int or Wis.) Other feats could grant Telekinesis, Telepathy, Clairvoyance, etc.
For full-on psionic characters, prestige classes could be available, requiring high mental ability scores and several power feats as prerequisites.
Thus, any player who really wanted psionics could take them alongside an existing class (at the cost of the all-important feat slots of course.) Those really itching to play psionic characters might want to start in a class with high Int or Wis req's such as skill rogue, monk, or wizard and then gradually abandon their original training in favor of developing their inner powers along a prestige class path.
I think psionic classes are overpowered and the entire alternate casting rules steamroll over existing magical classes. Retaining the flavor and flexibility but making it run alongside normal classes, as it did in classic editions, would be the ideal solution for me.
So I'm asking you:What does Psionics mean to you?
How can I get you to buy a psionics book and use it in your campaign?
What is an absolute deal-breaker?
Thanks again for the give-and-take.
--Erik
Psionics can mean a great many things.In fiction I liked the Psions from the David Webber's Oath of Swords, and the War God's Own novels. The Magi as they were called had some inserting concepts. Also the Warlock series by Christopher Stasheff delt almost exclusively with psions.
While I liked the 3.5's XPH, I felt it could have been done better. The Soulknives in particular needed some attention. Others weren't needed (I'm looking at you Wilder). That said, I've had no problem using the books my self in my campaigns.
As for a deal breaker? I don't know. It'd be hard to say what would make me kill the concept for my games. Like any product I'd have to look at it, and make up my own mind.
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I think a good system for psionics would be something similar to either Green Ronin’s Psychic system or perhaps Tome of Magic’s True Name magic. As for the later one I would prefer a little more simplification of the burn out effect, meaning can’t cast/use a power any more for the day.
Each psionic power could be designed like a skill or in effect 4e power for the most part that your rating would be equal to what you need to succeed in an attack. However I think to determine burnout an easier determiner would be to assign a dice type (d4-d12 for example) to each power based off difficulty and power level. Feats could then be purchased to bump up a given die to the next level. I’ll do some examples of what I’m thinking.
Say you take the power “Read Thoughts” which other than reading thoughts is pretty harmless and can’t cause any damage. So you make your check to see if you can read the target’s mind. You succeed. Read Thoughts has a burnout of d8. What this means that after you have used the number of powers for free that you are allotted for your level you roll a d8 and have to roll higher than the number of over uses you’ve done. So if the psion has used up all his normal powers for the day and this is the second time he’s trying to go beyond his limit he’d have to roll a two or better on a d8.
Then let’s say that he tries to do a “Mind Blast” and succeeds on his attack. Mind Blast has a burn out of d4 and this will be his third over use attempt. He has a 25% chance of being able to use it again as he has to roll a 4 to not lose the power.
By making the over use go against varying size dice for specific powers you eliminate someone just walking around blasting because they’re good rollers as after a certain point they will automatically fail to reuse certain powers because the dice associated with each power would automatically not be able to surpass the needed number to of over uses done (fourth overuse with an ability that has a burnout of d4 will auto-fail once used). Really powerful abilities would in effect be restricted by matter of course through players actions. This would then cause the player to really consider what powers should be used once they start down the path of burnout. “I’ve burned up all my powers for today. Do I want to expend the effort to read that guy’s thoughts when I may have to mind blast the guy to his right?”
This method eliminates any math that the other systems include for determining continued success. You don’t have to add five to a difficulty check and keep track of the math every time you use a power. Just keep track of how many times you’ve over extended the character and know that it won’t be able to use a power with a burnout dice number less than the current number of attempts already attempted. Eventually the character won’t be able to use any powers, in effect the character has burned out for the day, so set up camp and call it a night.
At most you make three rolls for a character each round. Roll to attack, roll for damage, roll for burnout.
When I think of psionics in general, I think of mind flayers and aboleths.
When I think of psionic characters, I think of wild talents and 2nd edition.
When I think of 3d edition psionics, I grow pale. The idea of playing in a campaign as a player where another player is a psion is enough for me to depart that campaign simply knowing the amount of power that psion will have.
Psionics as a concept are great but, to me, psions should be on a powerlevel on par with the sorcerer. As in, a wizard should still be able to put down a psion in a duel of spells/powers. As things are with present psions, Just using feats and abilities from the expanded psionics handbook, a psion is a one-man army so long as he has power points, starting at very low levels with the ridiculous vigor power which allows you to keep boosting yourself with ridiculous amounts of temp hp so long as you have 2-3 power points.
I like the versatility of psionic powers as a mechanic, but not as balance.
Psions are behind the sorcerer and the wizard. The don't have the versatility of either one, they can't outdamage either one. Sorcerers almost outdamage the warmage which is a class designed to blow things up. Psions also don't get to relearn spell the way a sorcerer can relearn spells. Psions seem really powerful if the DM only has 2 or 3 encounters per day because they get to nova, but if there will be many encounters saving PP is not an option for those that dont want to be come a glorified commoner.
With regards to their power I think This post sums it up pretty well.
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With regards to their power I think This post sums it up pretty well.
Total agree with Bacris' post.
Psionics to me really does tie to Eberron. Eberron is what got me to buy the "Psionics Handbook". I wasn't really happy with the Handbook, that said. I wanted something I could plug and play, but psionics rules seemed to need to be studied more than I wanted to. I was really just hoping to have a cursory glance over the book and figure things out with a shiny new kalashtar psion, but it wasn't to be.
I also really like the psionics with modern, as there isn't alot of magic in my modern. The concept of psions wandering around with wizards doesn't bother me--there are lots of other weird magicks in D&D.
Psionics would also sell me better if there was a really cool monster tied into it. I like the Githyanki connection that was presented in the Handbook. The staff has re-worked several classic monsters before, I have faith they can make the psionic monster that works.
Among my more vetran players, the complaint was that psioncs wasn't balanced. They said that traditional magic just couldn't deal with psionics. Traditional magic opposes different schools (hot and cold, acid and electricity and the arcane subschools). Psionics doesn't have this integration and seems like an afterthought.
I would really like an open Beta testing for psionics as well. Psionics is potentially a big enough change to the rule system that I think this would be fair.
Joining the thread terribly late. I read the first page and the last page... that's good, right? :)
What, to me, distinguishes psionics? The traditional casting classes, each in their own way, manipulate magic as a device. An instrument, a weapon, a tool, a formula, or just the way of nature: the caster tugs here, pokes there, and his manipulations yield an effect.
The psion flexes his bicep, and his arm curls. The psion flexes his mind, and the world curls. Calling it "force of will" is selling it short, because it happens at a level below thought. Psionic power is simply a body part, used like any other. It is strengthened like a muscle through exercise, which could be deliberate and disciplined or just a side effect of lifestyle. In PRPG the sorcerer comes closest among the standard casters with his instinctive, inborn abilities; but in truth the psion has more in common with the monk, the fighter and even the barbarian.
Now I'm going to hit deep left field and say that the book which made psionics feel right for me was Magic of Incarnum. It was underpowered in general, the meld-as-item mechanic was clunky, the rules on investment were only clear after reading them three times... yet it had the right soul (ha ha). The investment mechanic was brilliant: like 3.x psionics it created versatility from a small set of known abilities, but unlike power point augmentation it did not lend itself to a nova in the first encounter or two followed by your choice of rest or uselessness. The fighter does not run out of muscle; the psion does not run out of mind.
The Binder was a simpler version of the same concept, more easily grasped and integrated but entirely wrong flavor-wise. Of the actual psionic classes, the Ardent (C.Ps.) best represents the broad potential but specific focus that I think the psionic flavor deserves. Somewhere between the three is what I'd like to see psionics become.
How can I get you to buy a psionics book and use it in your campaign?
What is an absolute deal-breaker?
--Erik
Allowing me to dabble in psionics, rather than dive head in. If someone wants to have their future told by a medium, or wants a minor psychic power, allow that either by a feat, a skill, or some other mechanic without requiring new classes, new rule sets, point systems, or the like.
This is a wonderful suggestion. One of the neat things about psionics in 1e was that any character (of any class) could add psionics. It was pretty random and unbalanced, so making the player spend feats or skills to dabble is a good solution.
However, I also like having psionic base classes. I loved the psychic warrior, in part due to the concept art for that class in the 3.0 Psionics Handbook by Bruce Cordell. I think Bruce did a nice job, and I liked the point system that made psionics different from magic. However, I didn't like the idea of using all six abilities, including physical stats (Str, Dex, Con) as key abilities for six different aspects of psionics. If drawing only from the mental abilities favors spellcasters too much, then find some other basis for psionic power outside the ability scores.
For flavor, I'd like to see the original 1e attack and defense modes with the original names (Ego Whip, etc). I don't mind if you add other "weapons" to the psionic arsenal, I just want to see these.
Compelling art would go a long way toward making me want to buy the book. It's kind of like music in a movie; if it's great, I want to be drawn in. I also would appreciate it if not every character in the book is drawn with tattoos all over themselves. Sure, it's exotic, but please don't go overboard with that. Let me see at least as many characters without tattoos. Anyway, a big investment in concept art will convince me that you're serious about wanting to make psionics a cool part of Pathfinder.
Of course, the book needs to be hardback and 200+ pages.
EDIT: I didn't mean to sound so absolute about the page count. I just want a decent-sized hardback book with great artwork.
[What does Psionics mean to you?To me, psionics mean above all a power that...
1) manifests itself mostly as effects on thought (mind-reading, domination), body (enhancement), and objects (telekinesis);
2) has no verbal, somatic, or material components;
3) doesn't need preparation;
4) doesn't have magic as a source.
This is almost exactly what I was thinking, especially point #2. Although body modifications always put a strain on my willingness to accept that they belonged (Yoda and Luke do not alter their bodies).
The other issue I had was energy damage. Dragons are a lot less dangerous when your best damage dealing spell can be of any enrgy type (except acid, but very few creatures are weak to acid). Wizards and especially Sorcerers had to be prepared to cast weaker spells to get around enrgy resistance/immunity, but the Psion never has that problem.
This is a very good point. You see plenty of fiction featuring a rogue talent for starting fires of all shapes and sizes, making them big or small, giving them faces and nasty teeth, etc... but not one for starting fires AND freezing rooms AND shooting bolts of lightning.
When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. The psion is very creative with that hammer, and has an enlightened perspective on nails. She knows the balance perfectly, can strike at any desired angle and not just with the head... but if the situation can only be resolved with pliers, she's out of luck.
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(Yoda and Luke do not alter their bodies).
It's possible that all aliens of Yoda's species live to be 1,000 years old, or that Yoda used kung-fu techniques akin to those used by the sinister Pei Mei to obtain a highly extended life-span. Neither explanation is provided in the movie.
Luke is seen jumping an inhumanly far distance from Sky-Skiff to Sky-Barge in Return of the Jedi. Anakin and Obi-Wan are hopping and flipping with uncanny agility, and run so fast they're just blurs in the prequel movies.
The Jedi do all sorts of body enhancement in the movies alone. When you add in the RPG, comics, and novels, the Jedi are friggin' superheroes.
Or D&D psionicists.
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Psionics, at least as I've played them, have made up a "third" type of magic. Arcane, Divine, Psionic. I think that if Pathfinder is to have a psi book, it should take that approach.
The XPH was very well done. Wilder and Soulknife need some love. I wasn't thrilled with all the races. But overall, I think it was well done.
Psionics should become more mental/personal. Powers should either effect just the manifester or the minds of others.
Psionic attack/defense modes should come back. Perhaps expand the amount of attack and defense modes.
I'd almost go so far as to say limit psionics to ONLY attack/defense modes and personal augmentations. Could be fun if you want something different than the XPH.
I dunno, I've always enjoyed psionics and i've always been a pretty open-minded DM. I don't think the whole system's broken, and I'm excited to see what Pathfinder will do with it.
I would like to say that I am staunchly against the return of psi defense/offense modes. At least as they pertain to things like psionic mindscape combat. There's nothing worse for an already semi-tacked-on-system than making the rest of the party sit on the sidelines while they do some fancy staring. I'm glad that the XPH didn't have it, and, while I own Hyperconscious, I'd never use the updated rules it presents. It's the one area that I think psionics really shouldn't go back to.
And again, I'd much rather see evocation's energy spells become spells that can adjust their type on the fly like psionic powers than the other way around. It's rare in movies that you see spellcasters shackled to a single type of energy unless they're established as being dedicated energy specialists, in which case I'd allow for feats/PrCs/Class features that provide bonuses to those characters, rather than making it the norm. This would be especially nice for characters with limited repetoires of spells, like sorcerers and psions.
And, honestly, I get tired of not being able to use thematically appropriate energy spells for my druid because they only get fire spells at this level or that.
I have always been a fan of psionics. The way I have always interpreted their existence in the game world as a form of mental magic. A magic that comes from the body and minds power; internal strength. As a mechanic, I'd love to see it reproduced in Pathfinder more on par with the magic system and classes. In 3.5, my adventuring group had taken to using the unearthed arcana rules for magic with spell points, which definitely evened the ground between the two systems.
The only thing I would complain on is the part of the wilder and soulknife. The wilder seemed to be the poorly thought out sorcerer to the psion/wizard idea, and the soulknife seemed to be made psionic just to add to the book. Both classes just seem like they would be better off as feat trees to the psion and psychic warrior, respectively.
Being in the "fan of" category I am going to have to approach this from a strange if semi-logical standpoint: Business. I'd love to debate the pro's and con's of the system night and day with everyone but it boils down to this for me:
1) The XPH was succesful. As a retailer, it sold better than any splat book I ever stocked (i.e. more than Complete Warrior, and even Complete Arcane). That means a lot of folks liked it, and it has a pre-established base. Oh, Complete Psion sold more than the other splats too. The fans were and are rabid for new, expanded content. Free money to be made.
2) New Means New. The XPH audience was a hard cookie to crack, for those of you who remember it was an early-comer to the 3.5 and was awfully close in release to the 3.0 version. It had to fight much of the stigma of 3.5 conversion resistance and came through with flying colors (again, in sales terms). With retooling the core rules (a necessary evil if there is to be new players) being a one time free pass with virtually all of the 3.5/OGL fans, don't let your earliest offerings become "Paizo redoes x, again..." it will hurt your vitality and reduce interest in the line. If you need to do a full system rewrite, postpone this product until later in the line or spend your time on a whole new system (Incarnum and Pact Magic as examples). I honestly believe you don't need a re-write.
3) The Paizo promise is: Backward Compatibility. Don't go back on this guys. As a brand, reverse compatibility is becoming part of your identity. If you feel like a retool or reworking of the systems I beg you: Call it something else. Steven Kenson did the Psychic's Handbook over at Green Ronin and I believe it was a great example of a totally different system that scratched a lot of itches for the psi-friendly audience, but even the minor name change indicated a different system.
So basically with a strong established base, a strong sales history (from the numbers I had access to), your danger of becoming "the re-write guys" and your promise of backward compatibility I'd say this: Expand the Expanded.
You guys could hit almost all of the requests above, except for the fans of a total system overhaul, by doing a (light) revisit of the XPH core classes, and offering a robust (and I mean robust) block of crunch that's new. Powers, Feats, PrCs... the whole enchilada... with an eye toward balance that would allow the new book to be played stand alone, but still fit the XPH mold. New players could use this as "their" psionics, as could DMs leery of the old powers, and the rest of us old-timers could green light content from old sources without feeling like we just bought the farm we already own. Most importantly, this would get you a broad audience and a successful product which we all want!
Thanks for listening.
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What does Psionics mean to you?
An entirely mental-based method of channeling magic, available to players who do not like the current magic system in D&D. And magical items that use crystals. Also, I feel Psionics is the eastern/middle eastern version of magic. I have noticed that people who don't like Psionics don't like monks either.
How can I get you to buy a psionics book and use it in your campaign?
By putting a Pathfinder world 'twist' on Psionics. I would buy a campaign specific book, I would buy a complete reworking of the rules; however, if it was not backwards compatible, I would not purchase it or I would purchase it and treat it as a whole different beast altogether (like incarnum). BTW if you brought BACK Psionic attack/defense modes that would fall under my "What would make you NOT buy a psionics book"
What is an absolute deal-breaker?
How about more than a blip about the psionic races? That always pissed me off about the Expanded Psionics and Complete Psionics. I wanted more about those races. More fluff and crunch. And not a little, I want pages worth, like those 'races of' books. I always wanted a 'races of the mind' book was very mad when 4th ed came out because I knew I would never get one.
What does Psionics mean to you?
Mental powers: ESP, clairvoyance (remote viewing), mind reading, telekinesis, mind over matter. Star Wars' Force is a good yardstick for fantastic mental powers. However, there is quite a lot of real world lore on psychic powers that could prove inspirational as well.
How can I get you to buy a psionics book and use it in your campaign?
I'm in the "Don't really like psionics in a fantasy campaign" camp. Psionics always seems sort of sci-fi to me. Also, there is quite an overlap with magic spells: scrying, charms, enchantments, illusions.
However, psionics has been part of certain monsters from the D&D's early days so it's hard to say it isn't part of the milieu.Having said all that, I would buy a psionics book to use in a Pathfinder Modern/Sci-Fi game.
What is an absolute deal-breaker?
Don't tie it into the core too much. Core monsters should be built round spells with psionic alternatives offered in the Psionics book.
Jim.
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For me, it means a little more compatibility with my D&D library. I liked Eberron, and Psionics are big there. I'd love to see Pathfinder do what's been suggested. Take a hard look at the rules. Playtest the hell out of it. Close the silly little loopholes and infinite combos. Balance it against the rest of Core Pathfinder. That's make me a happy customer who'd be delighted to buy the book.
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So my question to Erik Mona is, "So is this enough feedback for you to put out a psionics book?"
I've already answered (months ago) what it means to me and that I WILL buy it, but I'd love to be able to get back to the guys in my last campaign and tell them that yes, there will be a psionics book and their classes and prestige classes will still be around, and maybe a clue as to a release year. Not date, clearly that's too much to ask for.
Have you guys decided to put out a book?
- Rebis
So I'm asking you:
What does Psionics mean to you?
the best example for me of a fantasy(or almost fantsy setting ) is an anime one unfortunately but until the end of the 4ep does not go into OP mode and this is 3x3 eyes , this has really good examples of that astral constructs are used for and what the difference is between a psisicic warrior (Yakumo) is and a full blown psion (Pai/Parvati IV) is.(the second set of Ova is an even better example)
How can I get you to buy a psionics book and use it in your campaign?
on this I agree with most if not all of the the post prior on this forum is saying keep the point system but fix the minor isues and tweek the classes.
What is an absolute deal-breaker?
switching the system to the Vatican system.
switching the system to the Vatican system.
What is an absolute deal-breaker?
I agree. I don't want psionics to be reduced to clerics with fancy names, all paying homage to a pope who lives in some far off (to me at least) country.
I don't want it to switch to the Vancian system, either...
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Well let me start by saying I didn't read the thread other than the first page.
As for the questions of the topic.
Unless Psionics was done in a really new and interesting way that just totally blew me away i doubt I would buy it regardless. Unless Paizo does a scifi/modern version of the rules. I am one of those that have no problem with Psionics as a whole but just dislike mixing it with magic. i like one or the other and tend along the lines of fantasy = magic, everything else = psionics.
Every time I see the word Psionics in a D&D milieu I just can't help thinking "Jumping the Shark".
The only time it has ever really worked for me was in the Dark Sun setting where it was engineered to be integral to the game, and it was actually loads of fun. Other than that; square peg/round hole.
Historically, I have really disliked psionics to the point that I have never used them. Of course, my first experiences with psionics was 1st edition, and well, it was a mess in my opinion.
However, if the psionic powers were treated more like spells, perhaps I wouldn't have such a bad feeling for them, oh, and the fact that every psionic creature in the nearby area who wants to feed on your brain or suck up your psionic juice, DOESN'T know where you are.
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Historically, I have really disliked psionics to the point that I have never used them. Of course, my first experiences with psionics was 1st edition, and well, it was a mess in my opinion.
I'm in the same boat as Kevin. I have been a game where a player utilized psionics, but it still didn't sway me too much.
What I would most like to see in a psionics system from PFRPG would be one where that system could be utilized within the fantasy PFRPG but would meld smoothly into a d20 equivalent Modern or Future setting.
And make it easy to use! 1st ed was horrid for this aspect. One should not need a degree in quantum physics and esoteric philosophy in order to understand a ruleset.
Well, we know that Vancian isn't going away, so that's a moot point, but I'm still fine with the idea of three branches of magic - arcane, divine, psionic. I like that idea very much, because threes feel more natural than twos.
And I'd say that psionics fit very well with Eberron as well as with Dark Sun. It fits well into my homebrew as well, but that's a moot point for other people.
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I don't mind psioncs as the 3rd or even 4th (the Force), type of magic, (despite the fact that it can't be A, and Not A at the same time. . .j/k). The only problem I keep having is what is it? Any explanation I have ever heard is either Cleric with a different name (most common by far) or Sorcerer. I'm not typing this with a jerk "tone of voice, just saying.
Sure, Psionics has crystals, but Wizards and Clerics have Gem Magic, right? They need someting to define psionics as a different form besides discipline, focus, and will to cause things to happen (Cleric, deities don't have anything to do with it at it's base because not all setting even have deities) or some innate inside mindpowers (sorcerer and many others that "unlock the power inside").
That leaves few things I can think of for what makes psionics different.
1.) maybe some abbarations (yawn) did experements and its all sci-fi into fantasy.
2.) it powers of the blood/body, and as above, not really anything different, just a varient rule that changes class names.
3.) forget all previous fluff and come up with something new, (which also mean you will probably lose some Psionic followers).
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3.) forget all previous fluff and come up with something new, (which also mean you will probably lose some Psionic followers).
Going one step past Eberron and saying that *all* psions / psionically-endowed critters are a fusion of both a terrestrial entity and a psychic entity from a purely 'mental plane' (similar to the Quori thing) would be one way to do this.
After all, it's already become canon that most Sorcerers derive their powers from some sort of heritage, originally draconic, but since expanded to include fiends, celestials, undead, fey, genies, etc. so having psions represent a hybrid fusion of a psychic entity and a normal corporeal race (with no change in personality, unless the player wants to RP such, as the fusion may have happened at birth, and the latent psionic abilities just recently surfaced, meaning that the base character has *always* been the hybrid entity).
My personal desire is that psionics not become 'magic by another name.' Precognition, remote viewing, telepathy, telekinesis, etc. are commonplace. Self-augmentation (mind over matter) and healing are a bit less common. The ability to manipulate energy or start fires, to a degree, still acceptable. But Psychocreativity? Control Winds? Shapeshifting? Summoning customizable ectoplasmic monsters? That's a step too far, IMO. If there is a psychic ability to create a 'monster,' it should be a purely psionic entity, like a tulpa, and not a wolf made of green crystal with a horn on it's head and 'one power from menu A.'
The mistake that I feel the XPH made, was trying to make Psions into another form of mage, with blasting spells, potions, scrolls, wands, etc. Green Ronin's Psychic Handbook did a far better job, IMO, of making a psychic that feels like a psychic, and could be used to represent any of the dozens of archetypal 'psychic' figures of a fantasy world, such as a wise old man with a healing touch, or a prophecy spouting visionary, or a gypsy woman with the Sight, none of whom carry wands of fireball (dorjes of whitefire) or have psychic powers tattooed on their skin or whatever.
But, I'm not the target audience. On the altar of backwards compatibility, my preferences will be left, while I accept that I can use an updated 'Pathfinderized' psionics system to make any of the more 'traditional' fantasy psychic types, and ignore the whacky stuff that feels like wizard-wannabe stuff.
I figure I might as well put down what I've written up about the three branches of magic in my campaign setting. Spoilerized for space saving and those who don't care...
Arcane Magic
Also known as "arcana," or "arcane magic," arcanomancy is the lifeblood of A'Thea. Brought into being by Rhiannon at the dawn of creation and embodied first in Aya-Rha, arcana flows through and permeates all of creation. Without it, life would have long ago burned out and sentient life would have never existed. It is capable of tremendous acts of creation, transmutation, and destruction. Practitioners of arcane magic are known as arcanists, whether they be bards, sorcerers, wizards, or other, more esoteric disciplines.
Arcane magic has a distinct tie to geometric designs and glyphs commonly known as "runes." These eldritch devices are commonly encountered in tomes containing arcanomantic lore, and are the only way to truly convey the complexity of this form of magic. Runes also appear "naturally" in areas saturated by high concentrations of arcana, such as the caverns of Rent Earth Canyon in Kerubina. Indeed, many arcanists "bleed" off runes while casting their spells, resulting in halos of runes circling the practitioner.
A skilled arcanist can harness the ley-lines of arcana that flow through the world and shape them as they desire. Most who use arcanomancy dedicate years of their lives to grasping the most basic of spells. It is a rare individual who takes to the art with little effort, though their repertoires are almost universally limited due to the complicated techniques required in their application. While a wizard may have to devote more time to his mastery of arcane magic than a sorcerer, he understands the fundamental way in which it works far better, and therefore can utilize any of the rituals that have been developed through time, while the sorcerer simply grasps at the intrinsic nature of the whole, without understanding the minutia. Due to the temperament of the deity who governs arcana, most consider the wizard to be the truest practitioner.
Like all forms of magic, arcanomancy can be used to create functional magic items. Items that contain arcane enchantments are readily identified due to the runic devices necessary to channel the power contained within them. Only in a select few items are the runes not etched upon the surface, and careful observation can discern intricate runic devices even amidst arcana enhanced fluids.
Divine Magic
Also known as "god magic" or "divine magic," deiomancy is the power of the gods made manifest in the mortal realm. Only the truly devout and blessed can wield divine magic at all, though rumours persist of some practitioners who steal the power from the gods or simply "wing it" to great effect. Nevertheless, while one may be taught arcanomancy or oneiromancy, most deiomancers must devote their lives and very souls to their god in order to use the power. The most common practitioners are druids, clerics, and favored souls.
Deiomancy manifests itself as a feeling of awe in both the caster and the recipient. Channelers of divine magic often recite hymnals as a portion of their verbal component, and feel waves of renewed faith pass through them as their prayers are granted. Those who are willing targets of a deiomancer's magic feel momentarily to be touched with the bounty of the unending beings that govern reality, and often are particularly moved. Recipients who are unwilling, such as enemies, most commonly describe the power they are affected by as concentrated wrath.
Divine magic is primarily concerned with healing, defense, and enhancing the natural abilities of the recipient. While it is possible to use the power of the gods to create devastating maelstroms of fire or similar offensive forms, they are seldom as efficient as arcana or psionics. The benefits of deiomancy lie in the ease at which the magic of the gods can be wielded for a truly devoted practitioner. Using divine magic is as simple as opening yourself to your god and channeling his or her will through yourself. As such, divine practitioners are able to acquire other skills, such as combat ability, easier. In addition, those who can truly act as conduits are rare enough that they receive additional blessings from their patron deity, whether in the form of transformational abilities, the ability to aid fellow believers, or by becoming something beyond the mortal shell of their original form.
Items empowered with divine magic bear religious iconography and materials considered sacred to the faith of the creator. Many deiomantic items have engravings depicting events from scripture, or likenesses of the god whose power was channeled to create the item. Holy symbols are the most common device, and many who wield found magic items imbued with a god's power must bear a weapon emblazoned with a holy symbol from a faith besides their own. Holy water is commonly required to consecrate holy relics, and is an integral part in the creation of distilled essences.
Psionics
Oneiromancy is the creation of Maborosi, lord of dreams. Known alternately as "dream magic" or "psionics," oneiromancy harnesses the power of the realm of dreams and brings the substance commonly known as "dream-stuff" into the real world. Doing so relies on intuitive talent and a special connection between the practitioner's soul and the dreams within his mind. Those who utilize dream magic are known as oneiromancers, and include such agents as society minds, dreamers, and nightmare warriors.
The magic of dreams manifests itself subtly, betraying its presence with small smells, sounds, colours, or other manifestations. An oneiromancer who wishes it can even circumvent these manifestations and create their magic with no discernible "tell." Practitioners of psionics describe the sensation of bringing their dreams into reality as imparting upon them a wave of euphoria and a sense of grandeur, coupled with an exhilarating rush of adrenaline. Recipients of oneiromancy compare the sensation to that of a particularly vivid dream.
A skilled oneiromancer taps into and manifests their dreams, going beyond what is possible in mundane reality. In a dream, anything is possible, and an oneiromancer realizes those possibilities even in the waking world. Due to their strong ties with Maborosi, gnomes are consummate oneiromancers while elves are incapable of utilizing psionics at all. Society minds are considered the closest to the true nature of oneiromancy, being so inherently tied to their raw emotions and with such impulsive natures. Dreamers are able to use their more focused approach to master abilities that most wilders are unable to naturally accomplish, but their focus has its own limitations. It is said that due to Maborosi's duplicitous nature, his magical creation was meant to be a mimicry of the other two disciplines. As such, oneiromancy is capable of offensive manifestations, transmutation abilities, and even healing. Such is the benefits of the magic of dreams.
Dream magic interacts best with crystals and gemstones, and these are necessary components of any oneiromantic item's construction. Skilled craftsmen have even been known to craft whole items, particularly wands, from crystals. Those who wish to mask the oneiromantic nature of an item craft the crystal at the heart of another object so as to obscure its presence, but most crystals are incorporated into design elements and put on display. Interestingly, even simple crystal can do, though precious stones are, of course, preferred for their decorative ability. Though a sword may have a simple quartz embedded in its hilt, it still has the ability to be enhanced with oneiromancy.
It should be noted that a large portion of my psionics flavor comes from the wonderful thread on the WotC boards Truenaming Psionics.
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Since my group returned to gaming about 5 years ago, we have gamed exclusively in Greyhawk, and probably seen almost every core WOTC class outside of the Incarnum classes and the Factotum class, and a couple of the Psionic classes. The most popular Psi classes in our group have been the Psion, the Ardent and the Pyschic Warrior.
Among the players, there is definitely skepticism at the Psionic classes, but I'd equate the same initial skepticism to the Book of 9 Swords and the Incarnum classes - where its the player (or players) who dig into the book cover-to-cover that establish the comfort level to play the class.
Pessimism grows if the player struggles to play the class (the random element of the Bo9S Crusader for example slowed down gameplay). Optimism grows if the player excels at playing the class (Psionics seem to be used in a round much faster than even wizard spells do, perhaps because a Psion is much more likely to spend power points on a power, knowing that if they had to, they could use that power again later without resting, versus a wizard who expends that 1 3rd level spell, knowing he'd need to rest to use it again).
I know our top psionic player really likes the psionics system, and is probably the LEAST rule versed player, so she likes it very much due to the power point system being much simpler to grok (like mana) than having to feel like she'd need to min/max a Wizard and deal with scribing scrolls or crafting wands to augment Wizard play "properly". So strangely enough as it exists printed by WOTC, it gets a thumbs up from the most junior player.
One of the favorite parts of Psionics is that as introduced, it has the same level of detail as Wizard Schools and Cleric Domains. In that you can pick a Psion and have ~8 flavors to look at (i.e. Psychokinesis, Psychometabolism, etc). Having the 'specializations' is a very exciting part of the system.
We use the rules that Psionics is just another form of magic, so things like SR apply, and you can use Detect Magic and Detect Psionics (for example) interchangeably. I think this is pretty important to make it easy to run, otherwise a DM might feel like there's too much effort to refit a printed adventure to allow psionics, so if I were to rewrite it, I'd tend to eliminate specific things like "Knowledge (psionics)" or "Psicraft" or "Autohypnosis" from the mechanics - and lets something like "Concentration" take the place of Autohypnosis.
I'd be all over buying a Paizo update - mostly because I think our gaming group needs to feel a similar breadth of options in the Pathfinder products to the 3.5 WOTC products. Our group loves the period when we do character creation, which is always spurred by the appearance of more core class options. Our group tends to be somewhat "purist" and will wait for a Paizo version of a class, and stick to the printed Pathfinder core classes until an update appears. Getting some updated core classes in time for Council of Thieves for example, is what acts as a genesis for "oh I want to make THAT" and creates demand for a new campaign for 1st level characters.
switching the system to the Vatican system.
What is an absolute deal-breaker?
I agree. I don't want psionics to be reduced to clerics with fancy names, all paying homage to a pope who lives in some far off (to me at least) country.
I don't want it to switch to the Vancian system, either...
Seconded.
On both accounts. ;)
I hope Psionics see use, but please don't convert it into another sorcerer/wizard/cleric type of class.