paul halcott |
In several places, you guys point out how the laptop/computer has become an invaluable tool at the gaming table. One thing I would like to see is some sort of official support software for character creation. I know there are free versions you can get, but all of them I have seen so far for PF have sucked. Even if it had a small fee to download update patches to keep it current.
Remember the large maps of the world TSR put out around the end of 1st, start of 2nd edition?(I had the one of Kara-Tur.) Something like that would be nice to help flesh out the world. Maybe even a regeional world book with the map included, simular to what you did with the Chronicles Campaign Setting book, only focus on one region at a time.
I like the ideas of race/class focused books. The more BALANCED options presented to players, the less lokily they are to try to hodge-podge some horrible monstrousity out of the rules.
totoro |
I would like to see the following:
1) A book for each core class, like the 2e kit books. I would be fine with wasting a couple of pages to duplicate the class in question so that new players of fighers could pick up the fighter book and have everything they need to design the class build. Maybe a listing of the "value" of each power to help swap out class powers or decide the value of magic items that incorporate the power.
2) A book for each core race. Again, I wouldn't mind if the info about the race from the core rulebook was reprinted to keep everything in one place. I would like a few mini-adventures, towns, or the like, that capture the feel of the race, helping players come up with good background stories. At least something better than the character with no family... Stereotypical NPCs of the race might be nice, too. Basically, if you want to know anything about elves, you pick up the elf book.
3) Focused bestiaries. I lose track of what monster is in which book, and don't really want to look at a master index, then pick up the book I want. I would also like fewer monsters and more description. If I pick up an undead bestiary, I want some story leads, for example. And, again, I wouldn't mind if the undead from MM I equivalent were reprinted for the undead book. This would be a great place to introduce rules for playing each of the monsters considered, and perhaps expanding the entry from the MM I. Also, I would like the bestiaries to be for, to use the 4e term, tiers, possibly with overlap. For example, Level 0-5, 1-10, 5-15, 10-20, 15-Low Epic in different books. I know that might be slicing it a little thin.
4) Focused equipment guides. I would reprint all of the weapons in the core rulebook and add a bunch more for the weapons book. Throw in some magic weapons, maybe siege weapons and armor. Talk about craft (weaponsmith) and relevant professions associated with the equipment. I know my refrain is becoming familiar, but if I want to choose a weapon, I would like to just pick up the weapon book, not the fighter book, the core rulebook, and some other spalt book to compare. I consider a book on castles and vehicles to be a type of "equipment guide," but I would mention that I think buildings deserve their own book. You can use layouts and costs for everything from a hut to a grand palace for PCs looking to buy some real estate, or the DM can use them in an adventure. Good stuff. And a complete book on vehicles would be great.
5) A spell compendium late in the cycle that reprints all of the spells from the PHB (I wouldn't care that much if the spells were not reprinted from the core rulebook because I tend to be sufficiently familiar that I always know where to look), and the best from various other sources. I don't really need new stuff for a spell compendium because I don't feel like paging through a book of spells for fun or to beef up my character; if the spell came from some other source, I will have an idea what I'm looking for and pick up a single book to find it. And no need for a separate listing of scrolls or wands.
6) Epic level (I believe there is another thread for this)
7) I don't care about psionics, but if each psionic class played differently from every core class, I would be intrigued. For example, I don't want a psion who acts like a wizard (and takes the same type of mastery to play well). I'm not a fan of psionic items, though. In fact, in my game, I ensure that divine and arcane items are not just "magic items." (E.g., no divine scrolls or wands.) Making the items different for each power source is tasty fluffiness.
8) I'm not too keen on the sandstorm, underwater, etc. However, one well-done book per environment, with a reprinting of the relevant environmental rules from the core rulebook, might be a handy reference. I don't like monsters, Prestige classes, and the like sprinkled through these types of books. I'd rather see that stuff in a bestiary or world book. I think a list of NPCs or lairs would be a nice way to fill out the book instead of a mini-bestiary that you will eventually forget, or fumble through some other bestiary before remembering where they are. It also will take the load off of the designers to come up with "cool" prestige classes and monsters with each book. Leave that stuff to the creative process when you are writing a module, then compile it later in a bestiary, I say.
I think there are a couple of core concepts that could be handled in a class variant book, instead of introducing new core classes. I think all new races can be handled in bestiaries, even if they are obviously playable.
Goblins Eighty-Five |
Would you be interested in subscribing to such a line, provided the books cost somewhere around $35 a pop?
Only if the bestiary was a separate subscription. I've never understood why you need more than one, maybe two Monster books.
You know what I would enjoy, on that note? A book with hundreds of NPC stats, like D20 modern's Menace Manual. That way I wouldn't have to stat out every single evil henchman every time I wanna run a game over 1st level. I want my 12th level orc gosh-darn-it!
What titles/ideas would you like to see us explore?
I would actually enjoy something along the lines of WoTC 'Complete' series, but I would really like a 'Races of' book, maybe devoted to just one race. Golarion gnomes seem radically different, and I would love to know their culture, their history...etc. Actually, if you had books about classes presented the way races were in 'Races of' that would be best.
We're all worried about rules bloat. What is your opinion of new classes and races?
Make them unique, if you do it at all. WoTC's Swashbuckler was a re-hashed fighter, but their Truenamer was VERY original; I love completely new classes, not rehashed wizards called the elementalist who use fire-only spells at +1 their caster level. BORING! I will play a wizard then!
I feel even stronger this way about races. I want some unique, cool abilities to come with a race, (and fluff, not just a page about their background, I mean I wanna really really really know this new race like I know elves and dwarves) not just another "+2 blah blah blah and a Spell-like ability" This is why I enjoyed their Shifters from Eberron. They had so much to them!That said, I would LOVE new races and classes if you put effort into them; it felt like WoTC just didn't give a shoot somedays.
Are you as tired of prestige classes as I am?
Yes. I never enjoyed how most prestige classes received a, as I like to call it, "+5 bonus to pick your nose checks" They just received bonuses to actions that never came up, or were completely useless, like a '+5 bonus to all checks made when using pine needles in a soup made to cure mummies rot'. Who cares?
If you make prestige classes, give them special abilities, and I mean abilities, not a bonus to caster level or attacks, but like, I don't know, the ability to make your sword fly about on it's own or to eat spells up or something different and cool that the core classes and feat don't already give ya.000000000000
One of the reasons I like Pathfinder SO much is the fluff (that's the Background history and context for a game, right?) I hate just crunch, which is what I see in 4th ed, a new Hackmaster. I like new rules, but I REALLY like new fluff; it's why I purchase the monsters revisited series, it's why I liked Dragon magazine's monster ecology, it's why I liked 'Races of'. I like the crunch BUT DON'T FORGET THE FLUFF!
dm4hire |
If we get new base classes, I'd rather seem them introduced because the section of Golarion that a given sourcebook or adventure deals with. For example, a Tian Xian book introducing ninjas and samurai.
If you want to produce an OGL shadow based spellcaster, introduce it in a book that deals with Nidal, and if you want a Knight/Cavalier, put it in a book that has to do with Taldor or Mendev.
I know Paizo wants to sell to people that want to continue with 3.5, but that shouldn't make them loose focus of what they have actually had as their strength, i.e. the setting of Golarion and their adventures.
Perhaps after naturally coming up with a few new classes and spells tied to the AP or adventures or sourcebooks, Paizo could put out a compilation book that puts these options together in one place as an update and for those that don't get the setting specific products from Paizo.
I'm just worried that there will be a temptation to adopt WOTC's 3.5 model of putting out a ton of material that exponentially increases the number of crunch driven books, and I've been down that route already.
No, no, no. Even WotC has learned that this is a bad idea. Spreading classes across several books is a bad idea in the long run as they'd see less sells than if they sell a whole book of classes. That's why WotC is only releasing classes in PHBs and Player Guides and no other books. The individual power books only amplify the class but don't introduce new classes. Placing classes in various products reduces the chances of the class succeeding as the majority of campaign specific books is a niche market whereas a Class book, whether a variant PHB or something else, meets a greater demand because it appeals to more than just those who like a given campaign. If Paizo wants to tie a class to a specific campaign then a guide that includes all the classes would be a valid product and therefore would contain information about various classes most likely viewed as appealing to those who don't like the setting but would be interested in the classes presented in it. The idea of just tossing classes throughout various campaign products is definitely not a good marketing idea.
KnightErrantJR |
My point was that I really don't want a dedicated PFRPG product divorced of fluff relating to Golarion, so if they have to put crunch into a book, then I'd rather it make some sense to do it.
If Paizo wants to do a Complete PATHFINDER Warrior, that's fine, but I'm not planning on buying it, because part of the point of PFRPG was that I didn't have to think about buying a bunch of supplements all over again since its 3.5 compatible.
I want to buy nice, "fluffy" material from Paizo. I love their campaign setting, and I really, really like their adventure. But if the crunch factory starts up, and they start churning out the rules only books, I guess I'm off the wagon, especially if said supplements expressly invalidate existing 3.5 material (which goes back into the whole psionics discussion).
I would argue that there is a big difference between what works for WOTC and what works for Paizo. Most people I know do not buy WOTC's products for the fine setting details, but for new rules, expressly. This isn't the case with Paizo.
But hey, they have to do what works for them.
KnightErrantJR |
I will second the comment "upstream" though, that there is a primarily crunchy product I would like to see (even though I'm all for more and more monster manuals as well).
I would love to see a book of NPCs statted out at different levels for different purposes. Its funny, because I was kind of ticked off at WOTC for putting leveled up monsters in the MM IV and MM V, but that is because in a Monster Manual I wanted new monsters, not old ones with class levels.
Something marketed just and only as a resource of NPCs from 1st to 20th level would be great, in large part because, while I like 3.5, its not a system that lends itself to ad libbing nearly as much as previous, and I dare say, even 4th edition does.
Belgos |
FWIW, I am a little tired of Prestige Classes.
Have to say that I would like to see some 'Complete' handbooks done in some fashion or other. My preferences are for the 2nd Edition Complete XXX Handbooks.
I would also like to see variant PFRPG rules in an Unearthed Arcana style of book. Variant Fighter/Cleric/etc, Gestalt rules (and why it is sometimes fun to play Gestalt), and how to create your own base class.
One book I'd especially like to see would be the Complete Multiclasser's handbook.
This book would detail (for example) why a 5th level Fighter would pick up four levels of Rogue and then some Druid (other than he's a 1st Edition Bard fan). It could include roleplaying tips and fluff/crunch on multiclass archetypes and how to progress them in a sensible fashion.
I do realise that this is stepping dangerously close to being a book of claytons's prestige classes (especially after having said I am starting to tire of them), but I believe it is worth a mention if it was done correctly.
BTW: Thank you Paizo for taking the time to ask us.
zylphryx |
Beastiaries - most definitely ... especially if you introduce new critters to confound all of those old-timers who know every beastie there is in 3.5.
Psionics - nope ... this was never my cup of tea. The alien nature of an illithid's abilities just added to the "oh crap" factor, and I never wanted to detract from that aspect. I always ran with psionic abilities being translated into spell-like abilities anyway.
Epic Classes - maybe. I am always wary of this type of product jump, especially if it automatically leads to a character achieving divine status ... something along those lines, IMHO, should always be something that is a driving force for the character forcing them to perform deeds above and beyond those of other adventurers, not something that just ends up with "oh, you're X level, congrats you're a deity."
Class Specific books - probably. Though like with 2E, I can't see these being full books ... more along the lines of 80-90 pages.
Campaign Setting specific books - YES! Especially if you delve into a region and dissect the nations, the political interactions, the social interactions, the major population centers (with maps), groups/organizations, etc. I would snap those up in a heartbeat.
Other Rule Aspect books - most definitely ... for example, an book of spells above and beyond what is in the core book. A book dedicated to magic items/artifacts ... with non-artifact but legendary magic items that could be used for adventure hooks, etc.
And of course, a LARGE SCALE COMBAT SYSTEM (I know y'all are trying to put this one off for a bit, but it would be great to have one for PFRPG). One of my favorite campaigns was one I ran ages ago where there was a massive war going on between several nations. We would spend several sessions roleplaying and then spend a session using the old Battlesystem rules to determine the outcome of several key battles ... sometimes the PCs would be involved in a battle, but usually not. The results of the battles would then play into the next set of RPG sessions. Had one instance where the PCs came back up from a dungeon only to find themselves a fair way behind enemy lines. Definitely good times. :)
Bagpuss |
And of course, a LARGE SCALE COMBAT SYSTEM (I know y'all are trying to put this one off for a bit, but it would be great to have one for PFRPG). One of my favorite campaigns was one I ran ages ago where there was a massive war going on between several nations. We would spend several sessions roleplaying and then spend a session using the old Battlesystem rules to determine the outcome of several key battles ... sometimes the PCs would be involved in a battle, but usually not. The results of the battles would then play into the next set...
A large-scale combat system would utterly rule.
Mordo |
What I would like to see, is something in the scope of the 3e splat books. A good mix of tips on abilities/skills/feats related to the classes covered by the book. A few pertinent prestige classes with organisation template to help fit them into an existing campaign. Some roleplaying tips for low/medium/high level. Have some information that may be usefull to both player and GM as traps construction, castle/grove/temple/mage tower/thieve guild, example of spell research, organisation etc.
Also something in the like of PH2, with class variant, a few new classes etc.
A new bestiary a year or every two years would be great.
But the most important thing, put stuff that is of great quality. Even if it's a cool new idea, if it not well developped don't publish. Don't put filler just because you need to get X pages on a given topic.
As for the price between 30$ and 60$ with an average of 35$ for the splat will be well justify if the quality is there.
ultimate_illusionist |
The idea about 2-3 Hardcover books in a year sounds realy good. I wouldn't / couldn't subscribe because 1st) I am living not in the states, 2nd) I lost a few months ago my job, and 3rd) I eversince picked what I liked and bought it, or it was bought by frieds as a present.
But anyway I am looking to support you an alternate way. I already purchased the "PFrpg BETA" as a Book, and that is just the beginning of a good relationship as far as I can tell between myself and paizo ;).
Go forward...and again THX alot for not loosing the "right path" that WotC just did.
MY WISHES for Pathfinder's Future:
1st. Take a look on Epic Rules.
2nd. Take a shot on an alternate spell system "similar" a la Unearthed Arcana or BESM Advanced D20 Magic, and even like Tome of Magic presenting new Base Classes introducing magic completly different with some extra flavor of course too.
3rd. As wish "2", except Special Combat (Rules) Book for Melee and Ranged Combat Classes. Example: Tome of Battle (only Melee).
PS: "CMB" could be a valid candidate fulfilling this task. :)
4th. Watch forward for psionics. I personaly liked Expanded Psionics Handbook.
5th. As well I personaly like Prc's if they are well designed and not just a page-filler in a book. They should be "crafted" with a big heart. ;)
6th. If it's not a big deal ... go for similar flavor and stuff from Forgotten Realms and Eberron 3.5 Edition. PrC's, Feats, special items, materials etc.
7th. I don't have a problem getting introduced with new races. But personaly I would like more options for existing ones.
8th. As wish "7", except for classes.
9th. Adventure Paths for players starting at 16th level and above. (Epic Adventure Paths).With my current groups we'll manage to "convert" from 3.5 to pathfinder.
10th. Special Complete Books as in 3.5 linked to each of the Base Classes.
11th. It would be a nice option if by purchasing a Hardcover Book getting access to PDF's too (integrated in the purchased Book with an access code to download the PDF linked to it). That was WotC not able to realize, another flavor that would give you a PRO too.
At last but not least: I personaly know 3 groups that will in close future convert from 3.5 to pathfinder. Isn't that cool?
Greets from Germany.
hogarth |
I would also like to see variant PFRPG rules in an Unearthed Arcana style of book. Variant Fighter/Cleric/etc, Gestalt rules (and why it is sometimes fun to play Gestalt), and how to create your own base class.
This is the kind of thing I would be interested in, too. Switching out one class feature for another is a great way of making classes more interesting (e.g. Pathfinder Beta druids who can swap out their animal companions for domains, or Pathfinder Beta paladins who can swap out their mounts for magic weapons).
jaaronfarr |
You're right to be worried about rules bloat.
I want to add another vote for what KnightErrantJR pointed out: I already have a lot of 3.5 crunch material. I would rather purchase campaign material, adventure paths, or books like Classic Monsters than additional rule books.
I don't want to re-purchase 3.5 rules with Pathfinder branding. There are already great supplements on psionics, mass encounters (wars), alternative magic systems, and so on. Isn't the point of Pathfiinder to let that live on?
If you are going to publish a rules book, make sure it's fresh. This particularly goes for psionics or alternative magic systems. If you are going to rehash something, build on it, don't duplicate it. There's a great foundation of 3.5 OGL material out there. Pick up some of the gems (like the Malhavoc Press stuff) and update them for Pathfinder. Don't be afraid to just reference good existing works.
Finally, another vote for _not_ scattering rules across dozens of books. Keep classes and races in player handbooks. One thing I never liked about 3.5 is that you'd find some interesting class mentioned in some supplement, but then never mentioned again. If you're going to introduce a class or race, support it and tie it into the core.
Zabulon |
I'd like to throw another side question in here...
Say, an Epic level book that didn't assume 21st level was the start, but went with an entirely new way to track character advancement (at the simplest, starting over at level 1 or something, but a level 1 epic character would be more powerful than a 20th level standard character).
Yes please, id like to see it very much! In our 8 year campaign we are all well beyond level 30 and demigod status, and i have to say that Epic and Demigod books dont work too well.
cappadocius |
Yes please, id like to see it very much! In our 8 year campaign we are all well beyond level 30 and demigod status, and i have to say that Epic and Demigod books dont work too well.
That's cause the game itself don't work too well at those levels. A randomizer with a flat 1-20 distribution becomes meaningless when you're throwing bonuses of +30 or more around. Spells cap at level 9 with phenomenal cosmic power - oops! Now we have to think of Level 10/Epic Level spells. The tarrasque has 858 HP? Ha ha! My 30th level Barbarian has 900! It just breaks. There're no optional rules in the world that can take a game that's designed at the very base assumptions to cap at level 20 *past* level 20 and have it be the same game. Move your characters to a new system if you want to keep playing 'em past the point that the game can actually handle.
I dunno. Maybe Paizo can surprise me with a working D&D Epic system, but it seems a lot of work for a very, very small subset of their customer base.
Epic Meepo RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32 |
There're no optional rules in the world that can take a game that's designed at the very base assumptions to cap at level 20 *past* level 20 and have it be the same game.
Actually, it would be quite easy to do that. Use the principle behind megadamage in the Palladium RPGs: any sufficiently high number gets converted to a very small "mega" number that automatically trumps all non-mega numbers.
cappadocius |
Use the principle behind megadamage in the Palladium RPGs: any sufficiently high number gets converted to a very small "mega" number that automatically trumps all non-mega numbers.
While the idea behind megadamage is simplicity itself, the headaches and problems Kevin has had with megadamage and the details of its application leaves me wary of something operating on that principle.
Does your roll on the Epic d20 of "1" trump the roll on the Regular d20 of "20"?
If I do 1,000 points of regular damage to you, does that mean I did 1 point of Epic Damage? (This is a problem that has plagued Palladium's Megadamage rules from day one. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't)
Is a single Epic Shield better than a full suit of Regular Plate Mail?
And the Epic/Regular scaling doesn't solve the problem of Level 9 spells letting you do amazing feats of phenomenal cosmic power, and then having to figure out how to go up to Epic without basically going, "Well, 11 is *higher* than 10, see?"
Fiendish Dire Weasel |
There is something I've thought of... what would be great would be not to re-write a lot of the existing "complete" books by WOTC, since your output volume and such wouldn't allow for it anyway, and so much of the work has been done. What would be great in its place would be a quick and simple guide for how to update various parts of those books to PF. I mean the whole point of PF is to be backwards compatible to 3.5 right? What we need is a simple way of knowing how to convert 3.5 feats and prestige classes (when necessary, obviously some will port straight across), while still maintaining game balance and integrity.
Epic Meepo RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32 |
While the idea behind megadamage is simplicity itself, the headaches and problems Kevin has had with megadamage and the details of its application leaves me wary of something operating on that principle.
Well, you couldn't just slap it together willy-nilly, but given enough thought, something could be done.
Addressing your specific concerns, off the top of my head:
Does your roll on the Epic d20 of "1" trump the roll on the Regular d20 of "20"?
An epic attack roll only misses a non-epic AC on a roll of natural "1". A non-epic attack roll only hits an epic AC on a roll of natural "20".
An epic saving throw only fails against a non-epic DC on a roll of natural "1". A non-epic saving throw only succeeds against an epic DC on a roll of natural "20".
For all other rolls, an epic roll always beats a non-epic DC.
If I do 1,000 points of regular damage to you, does that mean I did 1 point of Epic Damage? (This is a problem that has plagued Palladium's Megadamage rules from day one. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't)
Well, you wouldn't use megadamage directly. In Pathfinder, you'd just have one type of damage, but would add in rules for epic damage reduction, making it harder for non-epic creatures to harm epic ones, even if they each have the same hp total and damage output.
Is a single Epic Shield better than a full suit of Regular Plate Mail?
Yes. Something akin to the Aegis shield wielded by Zeus should and would be better than any non-epic armor.
And the Epic/Regular scaling doesn't solve the problem of Level 9 spells letting you do amazing feats of phenomenal cosmic power, and then having to figure out how to go up to Epic without basically going, "Well, 11 is *higher* than 10, see?"
All epic characters gain epic spell resistance. At 21st level, all of a caster's spell DCs and caster level checks for 1st-level spells are epic DCs and epic caster level checks (but none of his higher-level spells can beat epic saves and epic SR). For every two additional levels, this benefit applies to an epic caster's next highest level of spells.
So epic casters are using the same nine levels of spells they have always had, only their higher level spells are unable to effect epic opponents until they (the casters) reach higher epic levels.
SarNati |
Well, here's my shortlist for new products i'd like to see. =)
1. New "Revisited" books. I'm a sucker for well thought out monster books and the revisited books have got to be some of my favorite anywhere.
2. Class based books more to the idea of class ideas. Something between 2e book of fighters/theives etc and the complete books. I really like class books that give me new options for classes, or varient classes. I also enjoy Prestige Classes... but i'm very leary of a huge list of new feats (tends to unbalance the game) and new core classes (tend to outplay original classes or suck. Warlocks/Duskblade AWSOME, spell theif suck... imo). I love the idea of books that give me new ideas for how to play, or vaiants on how to play a core exisiting class.
3. Detailed region books. (which we are already seeing, but still).
4. Item Compendium type book.
5. Lastly, more Ecology books like the column from Dungeon and Dragon magazines. These were the whole reason i started my subscriptions to the magazines in the first place!
Cheers! and keep up the GREAT work guys!
Asgetrion |
Well, I would certainly second everyone who asked for more Bestiaries (you can't have too many monsters), but I also wish Green Ronin's 'Advanced Bestiary' and Necromancer's 'Tome of Horrors' (all of them) would be updated to PF RPG. If they won't be, I think a Bestiary focusing on all kinds of Templates would be ultra-useful, because Templates allow creative GMs to endlessly tool with monsters.
Also, Knight's suggestion for an NPC book is a good one -- it's the sort of book that makes GMing a lot easier. Add in a book of different businesses/shops with maps and all, and I'd be *very* happy indeed. :)
dm4hire |
Something to remember everyone when you say that you already have all the 3.5 stuff and what not. Pathfinder is being made not just for us, but for those who won't have access to all the books we already have. So us not wanting repeats of stuff isn't fair to those who won't have that 3.5 stuff come next year or three years down the road.
zylphryx |
oh, one more thing I would LOVE to see. Books outlining each country in detail. Maps of major population centers, groups/organizations within the country, social/political break down, relations to other countries, potential adventure hooks within the country for various party levels, etc.
What is in the Campaign Setting is good, it gives a quick overview, but to get an in depth look at each country or region would be phenomenal.
Dorje Sylas |
zylphryx, that sort of detail is very different from the Pathfinder RPG. Lets not get the Pathfinder Chronicles setting to mixed up with the PF RPG. While I am very much looking forward to the future Chronicles and Companion products those are really focused on expanding the Pathfinder setting, not the Pathfinder game. For groups that aren't using Golarion as their adventuring world they have very limited utility.
dm4hire does make a good point. Soon enough the old 3.5 products will be rather difficult to obtains for a new player/dm. If WotC doesn't restore PDF sales then there is even more reason to slowly undertake substitutions. I don't say replace everything, but it will eventually become clear which areas of the game need some more support and refinement.
zylphryx |
zylphryx, that sort of detail is very different from the Pathfinder RPG. Lets not get the Pathfinder Chronicles setting to mixed up with the PF RPG. While I am very much looking forward to the future Chronicles and Companion products those are really focused on expanding the Pathfinder setting, not the Pathfinder game. For groups that aren't using Golarion as their adventuring world they have very limited utility.
Indeed, just like the Forgotten Realms sourcebooks from back in the day for me. However, since this is a wishful thinking thread, I figured what the heck.
Epic Meepo RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32 |
Just a reminder about what the OP was discussing:
[W]e have not yet announced additional rules support for the game. That support IS coming, and we're in the process of finalizing what form it will take.
So the topic of this thread is "additional rules support for the game" (i.e. splat books), not campaign setting material.
Edit: I hope I don't sound like I'm trying to tell people what they can and can't say. It's just that I'm interested in reading about the original topic of this thread (splat books), yet the thread seems to be slowly drifting off topic and turning into a generic wishful thinking discussion.
Temeryn |
I agree with the whole, one class, one book thing. i would create a farrly large book with detailed flavor of a class as well as its mechanics. Also, i would want a couple prestige classes for it. I would be a strong proponent of alternative levels for base classes within the book to tie to the new class. For example, lets say it is an elemenat shaper. Hopefully it will be mechanically different from a wizard on multiple levels and the book will provide for wizard alternates that focus on elements instead of schools of magic.
mdt |
In July we officially kick off the Pathfinder RPG with the release of the Pathfinder Bestiary. The massive Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook follows in August, but beyond that we have not yet announced additional rules support for the game.
That support IS coming, and we're in the process of finalizing what form it will take.
That is good to hear, I have been seriously going over my campaign and looking at the beta, and will switch as soon as I you publish a hard-cover (long story why I don't switch now). I plan on picking up 2 or 3 copies of the core book in August.
The current plan is to release between 2-3 hardcover rulebooks per year, including additional Pathfinder Bestiaries.What form would you like these books to take? Would you be interested in subscribing to such a line, provided the books cost somewhere around $35 a pop?
As long as they are rulebooks, mechanics, and etc, yes. I don't want locations, worlds, etc. I do my own worlds. And as long as it's 2 to 4 a year, absolutely.
What titles/ideas would you like to see us explore?
I've read quite a bit on here, and agree with a lot of it. My personal vote would be for a Races Book. But, not just a standard 'Here is a bunch of races' book. I would like to see some unique detailed races in there of course, but what I want to see is detailed but simple (I know, oxymoron) rules on mixed-blood. How to do this is up to you of course, but what I mean is 'Half-Elf' as a template that can be applied to other races (Half-Elf Orc, Half-Elf Dwarf, etc) that works if you apply it to a human (and you end up with the core half-elf). Same for half-orc, half-dwarf, etc. Granted, you would end up with two different races if you had a Half-Elf Dwarf vs a Half-Dwarf Elf, but that really works fine for me, because it really tells you which of their parent races the person takes after more (even half-human too).
We're all worried about rules bloat. What is your opinion of new classes and races?
I love new classes and races, as long as they are BALANCED with the other races/classes. Warlocks and Dragon Shamans jump out at me as an example of a class that's way too powerful (especially at mid+ levels). Ninja on the other hand, is very weak and can be done better as a Rogue with ring of Invisibility and some boots of Leaping and Striding. A new class should have a unique flavor (Marshall for example is to me a nice new class that's balanced, Warmage is a nice unique flavor of sorcerer, Knights are unique and balanced too).
What I'd really like instead of a bunch of new classes is to have new classes be 'alternate builds' of core classes with alternate options. For example, the Swashbuckler, Scout & Ninja could be done very easily as a class alternate build of rogues (Or, the Ninja could even be an alternate Monk version that specializes in weapons and stealth).
Alternate builds that merge two classes would be nice too (Such as the Warmage being an alternate build merging Fighter and Sorcerer). An entire book with a couple of tight, unique alternate classes, and dozens of alternate builds for each of the core classes (and new classes) would be ideal.
Are you as tired of prestige classes as I am?
I'm tired of prestige classes that are either way overpowered, or utterly useless (Arcane Archer & Dread Pirate, I'm looking at you two respectively). A prestige class that is tight, unique, and gives something that you can't do with alternate builds and feats would be good. As long as it was balanced, and well thought out. I'd rather see these in a classes toolkit book (see above).
SqueezeBox |
As many people have said in the past, and to reiterate my feelings on what I'd like to see...
1. Expanded Core Class books - I want there to be a disgusting amount of options available to each class. Something where I can create a Wizard and make him melee oriented, or a stealthy Fighter, or a stupid Bard. I don't want to have to choose the option of multiclassing just to get the combination right for my character concept.
2. Creature Type books - I'd like to have a book that really gives me valuable information about the creature types(fey, giants, aberrations, etc). I'm not looking for a Book of Madness that just gives me more Beholders. I'm looking for something that gives me societal and cultural info about the general creature type and then isolating information about the individual monsters of that type. Could even reprint creatures from the Bestiary if necessary.
3. Power Level books - A DM's guide to help create adventures for higher tier groups with creature suggestions and story seeds. I just think it makes a DM's life easier if there can be a resource that helps him create worlds for the right power level.
4. NPC books - The last thing I want to do is stat out every shop owner in town or farmer. A handy reference to give me the quick stats I need would be great. NPCs as villains or minions would be good too, but not entirely necessary.
That's all I can think of right now.
Timtao |
I'm with Belgos on the Complete Multiclasser's Handbook. I'd like to see a treatment of every core class matched with every other core class. I want to have a lot of options to customize a character concept, without sacrificing too much. I would rather that did not come as another endless string of "complete" books.
Another book I would happily buy is a Pathfinder version of Savage Species. That book got a lot of bad press for being unbalanced, but it was still fun to play from! If anybody could write a revision that works, it'd be Paizo.
You can add my vote for epic level rules, as well.
But, what's with the interest in the re-Completes, and Races-of, etc? I blame them for the 3.5 rules bloat. I wouldn't fault Paizo for making them if that's what people want, but they will surely dissuade me from subscribing.
Just my $0.02 worth, and thanks for asking, Eric.
Bagpuss |
Can I pay you guys extra money to never, ever make an Epic level book?
Hey, I'd love to see a good epic level book.
Whilst having no idea what it'd look like. Seems to me it'd be a D&D-like game with new challenges and some translation into 1-20 D&D terms. But not how they did it in the Epic Level Handbook.
Get on it, men.
johnnype |
I haven't read all the post thus far nor do I really plan to but I thought I'd throw out an idea for a book. How about a book of templates? Does the PfRPG still allow for templates? If so I think a big book of templates like Green Ronin's Advanced Bestiary or Goodman Games' Book of Templates adds a tremendous amount of value and variety to the game. Many time more than a simple monster manual can.
Just a thought.
Bagpuss |
I haven't read all the post thus far nor do I really plan to but I thought I'd throw out an idea for a book. How about a book of templates? Does the PfRPG still allow for templates? If so I think a big book of templates like Green Ronin's Advanced Bestiary or Goodman Games' Book of Templates adds a tremendous amount of value and variety to the game. Many time more than a simple monster manual can.
Just a thought.
I think that they're relatively keen not to cannibalise the work of potential partners, so they'd probably be happier if those guys made their own PFRPG version (although neither has signed the license yet, so far as I'm aware).
walter mcwilliams |
I am sooo looking forward to the PRPG hardback. My group just began second darkness and we are playing under the PRPG rules. A few things that our first few sessions have shown.
a) Prestige classes are great when they directly support the campagin world, my rogue is working toward the Liberator PrC. I also took levels in the totemic demonslayer PrC from STAP. In general I am tired of PrC that dont add campaign flavor; which leads to b.
b) Absoloutely without a doubt one the coolest things about STAP were the associations. Everyone in our group really enjoyed them, and Golarion and the pathfinder series just scream for them. So an official splat book on this would be great.
c) Finally, some kudos I have been playing D&D since 1979, and this is with out a doubt the best incarnation of the game todate. I am 43yrs old and have no plans to play any other FRPG for my next 30 years of gaming.
Keep up the great work
lordrichter |
I would like to see the return of information that allows me to easily go crazy with flavor.
I reach back to 2nd Ed, Combat and Tactics, there was a huge list of weapons in the book, with descriptions of each. This list did not offer any variety in terms of new weapons dealing xd8 at range, etc. What it did do was allow me to easily introduce some historical weapon into my campaign. Why? Because sometimes you find stuff from centuries ago, in ruined cities from races millenia old, before they vanished.
The Armor list and the piecemeal system were significantly shorter, descriptive, and just as bereft of variety, statistically. Oh but the feel of describing the approaching soldiers clad in Lorica Segmatta. It added such a touch of tangibility to the campaign. I for one knew what Roman legionaires wore, but I did not know what it was called until I read Combat and Tactics.
The piecemeal system was nice, because you could quickly figure out what the wacky combination of salvaged armor was worth. I liked it for gladiators, escapes, or any unfortunate encounter with water.
For the record, I have not compiled either list yet. So my apologies for lagging with my suggestion.
All told these ideas do not really constitute a book worth of stuff. So add them into "Iron Fist & Velvet Glove" the Pathfinder kingdom sourcebook. You could provide mass combat rules, followers, henchmen, mercenaries, fortress construction, weapons, armor and all in tables... Basically give me all the information I need to easily and quickly create or manage realms, armies, etc. and/or get something randomly.
Because you know your players will go there.
"..., to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandaled feet." REH
malkav666 |
I am not sure if this has been mentioned. But I would like to see a PF "unearthed arcana" styled book. I am highly interested in the rules and updates that lay on the cutting room floor int he name of compatibility. I have a feeling that some really neat game design did not make the final cut in an effort to make the game more friendly to folks who still want to use their 3.x libraries.
Well I would like to cast my vote to get a book that has the changes/innovations/fixes that you wanted to make to the system but did not because of lack of space/compatibility or what-have-you. UA is one of my favorite types of books (along with Monte's Book's of "X" might/power). I would love to see this type of release for PF and would definitely purchase it.
Love,
malkav
hogarth |
I am not sure if this has been mentioned. But I would like to see a PF "unearthed arcana" styled book. I am highly interested in the rules and updates that lay on the cutting room floor int he name of compatibility. I have a feeling that some really neat game design did not make the final cut in an effort to make the game more friendly to folks who still want to use their 3.x libraries.
That's what I'm voting for, or at least a guide to creating variant classes (e.g. which class abilities can be swapped out for each other). I don't care as much about facing rules or Vitality Points, for instance.
The other thing I'd like to see is a Pathfinder version of Savage Species, although that's a tougher nut to crack, balance-wise (for instance, Sean K Reynolds took a stab at it with his "savage progressions" articles on the WotC site, which ranged from good to ridiculous, IMO).
WelbyBumpus |
You know what I would enjoy, on that note? A book with hundreds of NPC stats, like D20 modern's Menace Manual. That way I wouldn't have to stat out every single evil henchman every time I wanna run a game over 1st level. I want my 12th level orc gosh-darn-it!
I scoffed at this idea initially, but the Menace Manual ended up as my most-used d20 Modern book by far, other than the main rulebook. It was an incredible time-saver, and I'd buy an equivalent for Pathfinder.
Kadeity |
About Bestiaries:
i think the best thing you guys can do to make each individual monster manual interesting, is related creatures. Basically, make it an ECOSYSTEM book. You can basically, in this way, make a book for each biome, books like sandstorm, stormwrack, or whatever, but you have a TON of monsters in them that are from that particular habitat. Just have that be most of the book, then have maybe some magic items derived from such creatures, and some extra feats or spells to help cope with that habitat. Maybe a martial art based off of a creature from the habitat, and a rare race native to the region, and a short description of how this all fits into GOLARION.
also, eventually, i want planet books. youve got some interesting worlds out there, and i want to play on them.
About PrestigeClasses and BaseClasses:
Base classes are fine, but something i always found better than a new base class is a Variant Class Feature Set. Essentially, a kit. Why make ninjas when you can make a rogue kit that makes him a ninja? Why make a spelltheif when you can add new high tier rogue variant abilities to fit? And this idea extends to prestige classes too: Variant features for multiclassed combinations. Want to be an Eldritch Knight? How about you play a Sorcerer/Fighter, and give up a couple feats and bloodlines for these new class features?
One of my few exceptions to this idea is new/alternate systems. Psionics is a new system, and it should get a couple classes, HOWEVER,it could also use some alternate class features to make say, a psionic monk, or a psionic rogue. If you guys ever decide to make a new magic system, or some weeaboo fightan magic style things, youll probably need new classes. At least a couple. But dont forget: variants are your friend.
About PowerCreep and Balance:
I hope you guys know that WOTC cant copyright the "daily" and "encounter" and "at will" mechanics. Use these, they are one of the few not awful things about 4e. I think you guys are amazing at balance, and power creep isnt ever that big of a deal with a good dm, but you dont always have one. I think that variant rules are one of a dm's best friends, and if you guys were to come out with a few variants in every manual, i wouldnt complain. They help a DM power up or power down his setting, and are excellent for helping DM's and Players find the playstyle they are most comfortable with.
I think most of the powercreep wotc had was due to a total lack of playtesting, or just trying to make awesome things to cram into this book so people would buy it. They too often sold ingame advantage rather than good ideas, and it ultimately led alot of DM's to not trust new rules at all. You guys can avoid that, easily.
Pathfinder Compatibility:
I really think you guys should work with the guy who made Secrets of Pact Magic to help him make it compatible. Really, that whole magic system is amazing. Ive played a few alternate systems, and his is one of my favorites. Really, i just hope you guys are open to third party support in general.
anyway, thats my couple copper.