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players handbook 2 classes

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Has anyone else seen the class names they released on amazon? Avenger, Warden, Invoker, Shaman, Sorceror, Druid, Barbarian, Bard

I can pretty much picture the Sorceror, Druid, Barbarian, and Bard, but I am trying to figure out what the other four will do. I am thinking the Warden will be the primal defender, and Invoker will be a primal ranged striker, and the Shaman a primal leader, but what about the Avenger?

I believe in previous information that has been released, the Bard is an Arcane leader, the Druid is a primal controller, and the Barbarian is a primal melee striker.

Here is what is known so far, at least by me:

Avenger: Divine Striker (details unknown)
Barbarian: Primal Striker (shown in free online Dragon, has powerful melee attacks, likes to charge, daily powers let him enter a rage for the rest of combat)
Bard: Arcane Leader (previewed in DDI, heals and buffs allies, confounds and confuses enemies)
Druid: Primal Controller (previewed in DDI, able to use spells from a distance or wildshape and go into melee, and can quickly switch between the two. Both sets of powers designed to hinder and control opponents.)
Invoker: Divine Controller (previewed - today! - on DDI. Similar to wizard in tone (blast enemies from afar), and looks to have less range but slightly better damage. Also can summon allies - one of their first level dailies summons an Angel to the battlefield, though the complete details have not yet been seen. Background: Originated in the war with the primordials, invokers are much more direct vessels for their deity's power - almost a divine version of the warlock, flavor-wise.)
Shaman: Primal Leader (details unknown.)
Sorcerer: Arcane Controller (details unknown.)
Warden: Primal Defender (details unknown.)

Thanks for the info. The invoker and avenger both sound like something I would like to play. I have always been a sucker for the divine classes.
Silver Crusade

Hmmm, I curious as to how the Sorceror will differ from the Warlock. The Warden sounds sort of Ranger-like.
Iron Sentinel wrote:
Hmmm, I curious as to how the Sorceror will differ from the Warlock.

Well, if we go by what's here, the sorcerer is a controller, not a striker. So, perhaps the question should be: how will the Sorcerer differ from the Wizard? The wizard already covers all the key "controller" aspects of the game, and what's more, Wizards are almost solely depended on one stat: Intelligence. It's difficult to imagine another arcane controller who can beat the wizard. I suppose they'll have to introduce some new mechanics that will make the sorcerer better at one aspect of magic.

Hmm . . . interesting layout for Source Role. With the 18 known classes at this point, there would be at least one class for each combinatintion (with Martial Strikers, Arcane Leaders, and Arcane Controllers doubling up) except for a Martial Controller.

Yes, I know WotC said they probably wouldn't be able to fit every combination, but I just find it odd that a Martial Controller would be so hard to come up with.
The Exchange
detritus wrote:
Thanks for the info. The invoker and avenger both sound like something I would like to play. I have always been a sucker for the divine classes.

ME TOO! I've loved playing paladins (and clerics) over the years, and I think these will spark my interest the most.

Just had a quick thought.

Warden, a primal defender. Think this guy is similar to the spellcasting ranger of 3.5 days? The "spells" would be used in a similar fashion to the Swordmage.

Just throwing idea's out there.
William Pall wrote:

Hmm . . . interesting layout for Source Role. With the 18 known classes at this point, there would be at least one class for each combinatintion (with Martial Strikers, Arcane Leaders, and Arcane Controllers doubling up) except for a Martial Controller.

Yes, I know WotC said they probably wouldn't be able to fit every combination, but I just find it odd that a Martial Controller would be so hard to come up with.

I think a swashbuckler type character could probably pull off the martial controller. Moving around the battle field doing whirlwinds and sliding people around, and knocking people down.

William Pall wrote:
Hmm . . . interesting layout for Source Role. With the 18 known classes at this point, there would be at least one class for each combinatintion (with Martial Strikers, Arcane Leaders, and Arcane Controllers doubling up) except for a Martial Controller... Yes, I know WotC said they probably wouldn't be able to fit every combination, but I just find it odd that a Martial Controller would be so hard to come up with.

With the right combination of exploits, a rogue has some controlling aspects. While he does lack some of the big AoE effects, he does have several exploits that either grant conditions or slide the target about. A multiclass rogue/ranger could be built to be an effective melee controller, adding the ranger's close burst melee attacks to the rogue's sliding/condition-granting attacks.

William Pall wrote:

Hmm . . . interesting layout for Source Role. With the 18 known classes at this point, there would be at least one class for each combinatintion (with Martial Strikers, Arcane Leaders, and Arcane Controllers doubling up) except for a Martial Controller.

Yes, I know WotC said they probably wouldn't be able to fit every combination, but I just find it odd that a Martial Controller would be so hard to come up with.

Oh, I don't think it is that a Martial Controller couldn't be made - the druid's aspect as a half-melee controller certainly shows it could be done. I think it is not that they can't fit every role, and more that they don't want to feel obligated to do so - doing away with 'needless' symetry is one of the 4E goals.

If there is a class that looks like it would work perfectly as a Martial Controller, I'm sure they would assemble it - but I don't think they will look at it in reverse, saying, "We need a Martial Controller, what would be the best class to design for that?"

I agree, a Martial Controller should not be reverse engineered just for the sake of having a Martial Controller. I was memrely commenting on how close they came to having symmetry without "apparent" attempts at it.

I have no doubt that once a class concept puts them down the path for a Martial Controller, that one will be provided. Granted, now that the PHB1 and Martial Power are released, I doubt we'll be seeing any new sources for martial sourced classes for any role any time soon. Aside from PHB2, what's the next book that we are expecting to see any new classes? PHB3? Will martial be a power source for it?
William Pall wrote:

I agree, a Martial Controller should not be reverse engineered just for the sake of having a Martial Controller. I was memrely commenting on how close they came to having symmetry without "apparent" attempts at it.

I have no doubt that once a class concept puts them down the path for a Martial Controller, that one will be provided. Granted, now that the PHB1 and Martial Power are released, I doubt we'll be seeing any new sources for martial sourced classes for any role any time soon. Aside from PHB2, what's the next book that we are expecting to see any new classes? PHB3? Will martial be a power source for it?

They have not yet released any info on PHB3 (as far as I know), but I suspect it will focus on the Ki and Psionic power sources. (With 4 classes for each.) Alternately, it might follow the format of the two thus far - say, 4 Psionic classes, 2 Ki classes, and 2 of another Power Source (such as Shadow.) Then the PHB4 would complete Ki and Shadow, and add another one (say, Elemental.)

Hard to say for certain. But I'd put money down that Ki and Psionic will feature heavily.

I also wouldn't be surprised if the Monk ends up as a melee Ki Controller - and while not a "Martial Controller", I expect it might handle identically to how such a class would be built. But I'm not as certain there, the Monk could go in a variety of directions - Defender, Striker or Controller all could easily fit the bill.

The swashbuckler should be the martial controller. The controller is suppose to occupy numerous lesser opponents. Thats exactly what Errol Flynn used to do
MerrikCale wrote:
The swashbuckler should be the martial controller. The controller is suppose to occupy numerous lesser opponents. Thats exactly what Errol Flynn used to do

I don't think we'll be seeing a swashbuckler core class (IMO, I don't think we'll see anymore martial classes outside of campaign player guides), as Martial Power includes a sidebar indicating how to turn a rogue into a swashbuckler (pg. 87). You could also make a good swashbuckler out of the tempest fighter and ranger.

While controllers do target multiple targets more so than the other roles, recent designer comments (especially Mearls over at EN World) indicates that WoTC is moving away from strict damage output against multiple opponents and towards more battlefield control(terrain changes, walls, forced movement, status effects, de-buffing).

Also, hasn't the monk been referred to a ki striker since Races & Classes came out?

I agree we will not see a martial controller as a swashbuckler, I am just saying the flavor of the class could fit that role

Is anyone else a little sick of the escalating power sources? I mean, first Martial, Divine, Arcane, then "Primal" now "Ki", "Psionic", and probably "Shadow". Why do we even need these things? They don't really make much impact on the game.
Astute1 wrote:
Is anyone else a little sick of the escalating power sources? I mean, first Martial, Divine, Arcane, then "Primal" now "Ki", "Psionic", and probably "Shadow". Why do we even need these things? They don't really make much impact on the game.

I find the power source concept a pretty awesome one, myself. I mean, yes, mechanically you could throw them out the window without almost any changes needed at all - but they provide an easy framework for grouping classes (both thematically and conceptually). It allows you to easily look and them and explain how they work - Martial characters have simply developed combat manuevers from training, divine characters draw on the power of the gods, primal characters draw on the power of nature, etc.

If they bother you, you can just ignore them - reflavoring things in 4E is quite easy, and certainly can let you do some imaginative things with what might seem ordinary to everyone else. (Case in point: I plan to play a Swordmage who dual-wields 'soulblades' - magical weapons he draws forth out of his body, a la 3rd Edition Leshay. This requires almost very few, if any, mechanical changes from the Swordmage Bond and Swordmage Warding powers - it is just different visually, and that is all that is needed to make the character distinct.)

But I don't see that they hurt the game in any way. The biggest help, in my opinion, is allowing them to focus their products. See, 3rd Edition had things like Complete Warrior, Complete Divine, Complete Adventurer, Complete Arcane, etc. But... I had a Cleric who wanted feats from Complete Warrior, a prestige class from Complete Divine, and spells from Complete Arcane! The books weren't actually very precise, and so even with one character, you might need to pick up the lot of them.

In 4E, Martial Power is really just for Martial Characters. Sure, a Cleric might want it if they multiclass to Fighter - but if they aren't multiclassing, they don't need to even consider picking up the book. Divine Power will have what they need, whether they are a melee cleric or call down prayers from afar.

4E has actually been very good about this sort of thing, from the division between player and DM resources, the avoidance of full lines of setting specific accessory books, and the focus of splat books for specific power sources. It hasn't been perfect - Manual of the Planes was something of a hybrid product, and while that didn't bother me, I hope it doesn't become a trend.

But the power source division is a very handy way to focus their line, which can only be good for the players. And if it does feel like an arbitrary division, or something you want to shift and reflavor to suit your own game, then there is very little work required to do so.

On the matter of the Martial Controller....

FF6Shadow's Lancer

I'm just saying.... :)
Astute1 wrote:
Is anyone else a little sick of the escalating power sources? I mean, first Martial, Divine, Arcane, then "Primal" now "Ki", "Psionic", and probably "Shadow". Why do we even need these things? They don't really make much impact on the game.

They defined the Power Sources in the DMG from the very beginning. There is no escalating power sources it has been Martial, Divine, Arcane, Primal, Ki, Psionic, Elemental, and Shadow from DAY 1 of 4e.

Astute1 wrote:
Is anyone else a little sick of the escalating power sources? I mean, first Martial, Divine, Arcane, then "Primal" now "Ki", "Psionic", and probably "Shadow". Why do we even need these things? They don't really make much impact on the game.

variety is the spice of life. Its why I like all the different base classes in 3.5, different choices and combo are great. I have no problem with 20+ base classes and dozens if not hundreds of PrCs. It creates a lot of choices

Count me in as someone who likes the eight power sources, though I'm wondering about the ultimate composition of the shadow and elemental sources (I think I have a pretty good handle on what which classes will make up the ki and psionic power sources).

Power sources are not pure fluff and they do have an in-game impact. The classes of each power source are related to each other through broad thematic and mechanical connections (for example, divine classes have leader-type aspects regardless of primary role, are so far the only class with alignment restrictions, and have access to Channel Divinity powers), which are made even stronger by feats, paragon paths, and epic destinies open only to the specific power sources. In addition, since power sources are keywords, you can use them all over the core system. Magic items are the obvious example, but does anyone remember the skinweavers from Dragon? The head can mimic any arcane power used near it.
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