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I took a long, hard look on the SRD and came up with a list of monsters to ditch from PFRPG Bestiary.
Feel free to comment and post your picks !
* Arrowhawk. That or Belker
* Athach. Ditch. Aren’t there enough Large giant-like monsters out there ?
* Belker. That or Arrowhawk
* Delver. Ditch. Underground burrower number 23
* Destrachan. Ditch. Gets lost between Devils and Demons and ignored anyway.
* Digester. Ditch. Silly monster of the last week.
* Dire Animal. Make it a template.
* Eagle, Giant. Fold into Animals
* Ethereal Filcher. Ditch. Silly monster of the week runner-up
* Ethereal Marauder. Ditch. Silly monster of the week.
* Formian. Ditch. Weak replacement for Modrons…
* Krenshar. Ditch. Scary cat, woo !
* Locathah. Ditch. Fishy humanoid number 345…
* Ogre Mage. Ditch, doesn’t fit into Golarion Ogres really.
* Owl, Giant. Fold into animals
* Phantom Fungus. Ditch - too silly to stay alive.
* Ravid. Ditch – silly concept, silly execution
* Tojanida. Die. Die in flames.
* Yrthak. Die in flames as well.
I still like the following:
* Athach. Ditch. Aren’t there enough Large giant-like monsters out there ?
* Belker. That or Arrowhawk
* Destrachan. Ditch. Gets lost between Devils and Demons and ignored anyway.
* Dire Animal. Make it a template.
* Eagle, Giant. Fold into Animals
* Ethereal Filcher. Ditch. Silly monster of the week runner-up
* Ethereal Marauder. Ditch. Silly monster of the week.
* Formian. Ditch. Weak replacement for Modrons…
* Krenshar. Ditch. Scary cat, woo !
* Locathah. Ditch. Fishy humanoid number 345…
* Ogre Mage. Ditch, doesn’t fit into Golarion Ogres really.
* Owl, Giant. Fold into animals
* Phantom Fungus. Ditch - too silly to stay alive.
* Yrthak. Die in flames as well.
Athach needs to be a Giant, though. Also, did you see the Ecology of the Phantom Fungus in KQ #6? It's very good (And Lovecraftian!)
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@ Phantom Fungus.
Well...the monster itself isn't that bad, but the looks... My players would have a barrel of laughs if I show them the picture. So perhaps re-imagining would work.
@ Giant Eagle.
I do understand the Tolkien roots and all, but...
"Hey, some huge bird is flying there"
"Huge bird ? Great, incoming dinner. Can you get me a positive on what bird is it ?"
"Hmmm....looks like a Giant Eagle"
"Ah crap, he's intelligent, NG and all. No food today."
I would feel really cheated if I were a Giant Raven or Giant Hawk ;)
@ Dragons.
One thing I forgot. Color-coding for difficulty must die !
I know 'Dire animal as template' Is really popular, but I'm against it. With the existing system, you can always just increase the size of an animal if you want it to be a giant version of itself, but the existing Dire Animal is supposed to represent something completely different. Also, having dire animals as separate entities gives the developers a lot of room to make the dire versions of creatures more or less powerful than corresponding mundane version. For example, a tortoise isn't a particularly intimidating foe, but a dire tortoise certainly is, whereas a dire tiger, while powerful, isn't much bigger than a regular tiger. I like having the possibility of aberrations such as this built into the system, which would be incredibly difficult to do with a template. I suppose you could give it a minimum size and HD, but that would seem a bit arbitrary.
I like arrowhak, destrachan and Ogre Mage. But for the rest...
Who would notice they are gone?
Also agree on dire animals and giant birds. They are good as they are.
* Ogre Mage. Ditch, doesn’t fit into Golarion Ogres really.
So?
* Arrowhawk. That or Belker
* Athach. Ditch. Aren’t there enough Large giant-like monsters out there ?
* Belker. That or Arrowhawk
* Delver. Ditch. Underground burrower number 23
* Destrachan. Ditch. Gets lost between Devils and Demons and ignored anyway.
* Digester. Ditch. Silly monster of the last week.
* Dire Animal. Make it a template.
* Eagle, Giant. Fold into Animals
* Ethereal Filcher. Ditch. Silly monster of the week runner-up
* Ethereal Marauder. Ditch. Silly monster of the week.
* Formian. Ditch. Weak replacement for Modrons…
* Krenshar. Ditch. Scary cat, woo !
* Locathah. Ditch. Fishy humanoid number 345…
* Ogre Mage. Ditch, doesn’t fit into Golarion Ogres really.
* Owl, Giant. Fold into animals
* Phantom Fungus. Ditch - too silly to stay alive.
* Ravid. Ditch – silly concept, silly execution
* Tojanida. Die. Die in flames.
* Yrthak. Die in flames as well.
I like all of these monsters except for the Formian and the Tojanida. they all have their place, and I've run fun, memorable encounters with all of em.
Except for the Formian & Tojanida. They're just hopeless.
I took a long, hard look on the SRD and came up with a list of monsters to ditch from PFRPG Bestiary.
Feel free to comment and post your picks !
* Formian. Ditch. Weak replacement for Modrons…
* Ogre Mage. Ditch, doesn’t fit into Golarion Ogres really.
* Tojanida. Die. Die in flames.
These three I wanted to save from your wrath. Formians are not as cool as Modrons, by any stretch of the imagination, no. But they are kinda cool, as are most types of 'bug-men', and I know a lot of gamers who have used both side by side. In my own games they've served as a good foil to the Modrons, and they've made an awesome summon monster choice. I figure sooner or later, the Formian Queens are going to want to know why so many of the workers are taking too long to complete their tasks.... The Ogre Mage is a different species of Ogre to the Pathfinder ones, only distantly related, at best (I think). Maybe it's a case of the people of the world, in game, can't tell the difference, not us, the players, out of game. But it is a cool, classic, monster that has a role and is a lot of fun. I don't mind if Paizo want to rename it (Oni?), but it should stay. Finally, the Tojanida has charm. The art needs a less "lady's crotch in a shell" vibe, but apart from that, it's fun. There aren't enough under water terrors as it is. Lets keep this one.
Peace,
tfad
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* Phantom Fungus. Ditch - too silly to stay alive.
You obviously don't subscribe to Kobold Quarterly...
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...you can always just increase the size of an animal if you want it to be a giant version of itself, but the existing Dire Animal is supposed to represent something completely different.
I'm happy to have Dire Animals in the game, but they need a rethink in their appearance.
If you want them to represent Pliostocene mammals like the Andrewsarchus, and others, then make stats for those animals.
Don't just take a modern animal and stick bony spikes all over it, in places that aren't evolutionally likely, advantageous or anatomically possible.
Formians existed alongside Modrons for some time... They shouldn't be thought of as "replacements"— they make a very nice lawful creature that is somewhat more militant and expansionist than the modrons are.
I'd like to see the standard PC races dropped from the beastiary. Keep an entry for Duergar, Drow, and Svirfneblin, but save space and cut the regular Dwarf, Elf and Gnome. I'd much rather have 3 actual monsters included instead.
This.
I'd like to see the standard PC races dropped from the beastiary. Keep an entry for Duergar, Drow, and Svirfneblin, but save space and cut the regular Dwarf, Elf and Gnome. I'd much rather have 3 actual monsters included instead.
This...
and replace (because one or more applies: they are boring, ridiculous, to similar to others, never or very rarely used - at least by me)
Belker, perhaps one of the angels and / or archons and / or guardinals, couatl or lillend, delver, destrachan, digester, Dragon Turtle, eladrin, ethereal filcher, formian, shrieker fungus, grimlock, lillend or couatl, phantom fungus, phasm, rast, tendricolous, tojanida
with something others.
and put the Night Hag under the Hag entry. Ebery time i need a Night Hag i look under the Hag entry and cannot find her until I remember to look under "N"...
I think in general, there are too many good aligned creatures.
For the first Monster book, everything in the SRD and as many from the Tome of Horrors as possible.
I would LOVE to see the Hordling, flumph, wolf in sheep's clothing, modrons, and giant space hamsters. I'm serious, I really miss the goofy stuff. It had its place. And modrons weren't really that goofy anyway. Just play Planescape Torment for what I mean.
I also like colossal creatures anywhere from 150 feet to several miles tall. In fact, I'd love it if dragons were bigger than they were in 3e.
Keep the ogre mage! A lot of us won't be using Pathfinder's default campaign setting. Maybe remove their SLAs and give them integrated sorcerer levels instead.
Again, I raise my voice for keeping the Ogre Mage. Fixes are fine; dumping would be a loss.
Formians existed alongside Modrons for some time... They shouldn't be thought of as "replacements"— they make a very nice lawful creature that is somewhat more militant and expansionist than the modrons are.
Yeah...weren't they in the Slave Pits of the Undercity? First module I ever bought.
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This...and replace (because one or more applies: they are boring, ridiculous, to similar to others, never or very rarely used - at least by me)
Belker, perhaps one of the angels and / or archons and / or guardinals, couatl or lillend, delver, destrachan, digester, Dragon Turtle, eladrin, ethereal filcher, formian, shrieker fungus, grimlock, lillend or couatl, phantom fungus, phasm, rast, tendricolous, tojanida
with something others.
and put the Night Hag under the Hag entry. Ebery time i need a Night Hag i look under the Hag entry and cannot find her until I remember to look under "N"...
I think in general, there are too many good aligned creatures.
I'm for keeping the G outsiders. Summoning, Planar Ally, Gate... You want to have their stats handy at some point. Tendricolous is sweet and cuddly, Dragon Turtle is something of a classic. And I like Grimlocks, low CR humanoids with Blindsight = instawin agianst "yay, I have Invisibility I is king of the world now !" PCs.
Formians existed alongside Modrons for some time...Yeah...weren't they in the Slave Pits of the Undercity? First module I ever bought.Those were Aspis, and the Thri-Kreen killed them and took their stuff.
Formians are one of the few 'newer' critters that I kind of like.
Ah...thanks. Actually, Aspis is a cooler name, IMO.
Whether or not ogre mages fit into Goloarion is irrelevant (although I think they'd fit in fine), since the Pathfinder Bestiary is a monster book for all potential campaigns, not just Golarion.
That said, the OP's list does look eerily familiar in places to lists of my own...
Is that a sign that mayhaps modrons will be in the core bestiary? pls pls pls? I don't think anyone I've seen has ever used formians.
Also, any possibility of a more open-ended comprehensive homonculus system/entry so they can be made useful in multiple circumstances instead of just a sub-par familiar?
@ Giant Eagle.
I do understand the Tolkien roots and all, but...
"Hey, some huge bird is flying there"
"Huge bird ? Great, incoming dinner. Can you get me a positive on what bird is it ?"
"Hmmm....looks like a Giant Eagle"
"Ah crap, he's intelligent, NG and all. No food today."I would feel really cheated if I were a Giant Raven or Giant Hawk ;)
Actually, Giant Eagle is a great food source, with no alignment repercussions.
@ Giant Eagle.
I do understand the Tolkien roots and all, but...
"Hey, some huge bird is flying there"
"Huge bird ? Great, incoming dinner. Can you get me a positive on what bird is it ?"
"Hmmm....looks like a Giant Eagle"
"Ah crap, he's intelligent, NG and all. No food today."I would feel really cheated if I were a Giant Raven or Giant Hawk ;)
Actually, Giant Eagle is a great food source, with no alignment repercussions.
Wicked, when I went to that page there was a nicely cooked bird sitting there.
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Keep the ogre mage! A lot of us won't be using Pathfinder's default campaign setting. Maybe remove their SLAs and give them integrated sorcerer levels instead.
That could work for a lot of creatures, to clear out the chaff.
How many fey do we actually need, who are just 'small, slender magical humanoid, like the last one, but with a different spell'?
Lose the fixed SLAs, give virtual (or actual) caster levels, and free choices of spells known, and you have an endless variety of encounter types, without having to justify a new race each time. Give the one in the book a 'standard package' of spells, with the option to swap out for something more in keeping with the adventure.
That way, the 'bad fairy' and the 'good fairy' can be rival sisters, one of whom took a different, wrong path somewhere in the past.
It also helps to reveal which creatures have SLAs out of synch with their supposed CR (like the Ogre Mage, which was given a makeover in the WOTC blogs several years ago).
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How many fey do we actually need, who are just 'small, slender magical humanoid, like the last one, but with a different spell'?
Lose the fixed SLAs, give virtual (or actual) caster levels, and free choices of spells known, and you have an endless variety of encounter types, without having to justify a new race each time. Give the one in the book a 'standard package' of spells, with the option to swap out for something more in keeping with the adventure.
Awesome idea.
That said, the OP's list does look eerily familiar in places to lists of my own...
I think there's a strange similarity with everyones list. What a miracle! ^^
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Tojanida need to be replaced with Water Weirds.
Or Grue.
And Yrthak need to be replaced with just about any other sonic critter from the old days, like a Banshee or a Dune Stalker or a Siren.
Of course, Green Dragons in my world have a Sonic breath weapon and bard levels instead of sorcerer levels, so I've already got the big green flying sonic lizard niche covered...
@ Giant Eagle.
I do understand the Tolkien roots and all, but...
"Hey, some huge bird is flying there"
"Huge bird ? Great, incoming dinner. Can you get me a positive on what bird is it ?"
"Hmmm....looks like a Giant Eagle"
"Ah crap, he's intelligent, NG and all. No food today."I would feel really cheated if I were a Giant Raven or Giant Hawk ;)
Actually, Giant Eagle is a great food source, with no alignment repercussions.
Ha! I've always had trouble with this word association.
DM: You see a Giant Eagle over the horizon.
Player: Nice, I stop in and stock up on pierogies!
I took a long, hard look on the SRD and came up with a list of monsters to ditch from PFRPG Bestiary.
Feel free to comment and post your picks !
* Arrowhawk. That or Belker
* Athach. Ditch. Aren’t there enough Large giant-like monsters out there ?
* Belker. That or Arrowhawk
* Delver. Ditch. Underground burrower number 23
* Destrachan. Ditch. Gets lost between Devils and Demons and ignored anyway.
* Digester. Ditch. Silly monster of the last week.
* Dire Animal. Make it a template.
* Eagle, Giant. Fold into Animals
* Ethereal Filcher. Ditch. Silly monster of the week runner-up
* Ethereal Marauder. Ditch. Silly monster of the week.
* Formian. Ditch. Weak replacement for Modrons…
* Krenshar. Ditch. Scary cat, woo !
* Locathah. Ditch. Fishy humanoid number 345…
* Ogre Mage. Ditch, doesn’t fit into Golarion Ogres really.
* Owl, Giant. Fold into animals
* Phantom Fungus. Ditch - too silly to stay alive.
* Ravid. Ditch – silly concept, silly execution
* Tojanida. Die. Die in flames.
* Yrthak. Die in flames as well.
I like this list for the most part, though I disagree with a few. Notably, I like the destrachan, digester, formians, and ogre mage. I also think that making the dire animal a template would just add an unwanted layer of complication when using dire animals. Best to keep them.
I always thought that the yrthak should be purple. That way it could be a one eyed, one horned, flying purple people eater.
I think that some monsters from other open source books should be considered to fill the void left by these silly outcasts. Tome of Horrors 1 - 3 has some good candidates. Some of the Pathfinder monsters likewise are good and would fit into this book.
Creative Director
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Is that a sign that mayhaps modrons will be in the core bestiary? pls pls pls? I don't think anyone I've seen has ever used formians.
Also, any possibility of a more open-ended comprehensive homonculus system/entry so they can be made useful in multiple circumstances instead of just a sub-par familiar?
No modrons. They're not open content. They're off the list.
And as for the homunculus, it'll be pretty close to the version in the SRD. This book isn't the right place to do drastic changes to situations. Alternate homunculus rules are a great topic to cover in a supplementary book some day down the road... but not in the core book.
I actually like Krenshars because I have fond memories of them from my AoW campaign. Good pets for the grims'. I need to check out that fungus article from KQ.
I've used krenshar to great effect by adding a zipper. For some reason, that made them like 8 times as creepy to my PCs.
Finally, the Tojanida has charm. The art needs a less "lady's crotch in a shell" vibe, but apart from that, it's fun.
There's a hilarious quote from a college gaming session because of that picture!
Player 1, looking at the picture - "Good lord, I didn't realize that lady-bits were fanged..."
Player 2 - "Yikes... If those things had teeth..."
Me, interrupting at the right moment - "...I'd be a dentist."
Player 1 & 2 - *shocked look, laughter, then congratulations at a well-timed pun*
Even my wife calls them "virginia* turtles"...
*I'm not sure if I can say what we actually call them on this family friendly board, so use your imagination.
Actually, Giant Eagle is a great food source, with no alignment repercussions.
Southwestern Pennsylvania native also?
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In "my" Golarion, Thri-Kreen and Modrons are in. The former will live on one of the planets (oh thanks, thanks THANKS Paizo for coming up with a setting that has more than one planet) while Modrons will live in the Axis, as the "greater servitor" race, with clockwork thingies being "lesser servitors" and the Inevitables as "overseers".
I really can't imagine anything organic (fleshy...sticky...eeew !) existing in the center of Ultimate Order. Constructs, maybe some outsiders and an odd dragon or two, but no ants please.
There's a hilarious quote from a college gaming session because of that picture!
Player 1, looking at the picture - "Good lord, I didn't realize that lady-bits were fanged..."
Player 2 - "Yikes... If those things had teeth..."
Me, interrupting at the right moment - "...I'd be a dentist."
Player 1 & 2 - *shocked look, laughter, then congratulations at a well-timed pun*Even my wife calls them "virginia* turtles"...
LMFAO! Awesome!
Seriously, they need new art for this beastie. There's nothing wrong with the stat block or the mechanics, they just need a picture that's as cool as, well, something a little less "Overfiend" and a little more "Evil Turtle". I'd rather have TOKKA fight my players if we're going just off the art....
Peace,
tfad
The Destrachan is a fantastic monster. I know they didnt exist until 3rd edition but to me they are classic D&D critters like Rust Monsters and Cloakers now.
Why in the 9 Hells has no one mentioned the Phasm yet????
The Destrachan is a fantastic monster. I know they didnt exist until 3rd edition but to me they are classic D&D critters like Rust Monsters and Cloakers now.
I am also a big Desctrachan fan.
Why in the 9 Hells has no one mentioned the Phasm yet????
Speaking of potentially cool monsters victimized by bad art.
Seriously, they need new art for this beastie. There's nothing wrong with the stat block or the mechanics, they just need a picture that's as cool as...
Yep. When Paizo finally gets around to scraping the bottom of the open gaming content barrel (No Monster Left Behind!), somewhere along Bestiary #5, then for crying out loud, give the tojanida a picture that lets us take it a little more seriously.
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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We just assigned all of the critters that will be in the book to the in-house authors, and it's astonishing how few of the monsters in the original post of this thread will be making the cut.
Also, in defense of the formians (who will not be in this book), they are actually taken from a pulp source: Ralph Milne Farley's "Radio-Man" stories (An Earthman on Venus, The Radio Beasts, Radio Planet, the Radio Menace, etc.). These were, essentially, Edgar Rice Burroughs John Carter of Mars stories set in a weird 1930s Venus. The formians were the evil ant people, who battled against the cupians, beautiful humanoids with antennae. The cupians communicate through radio waves, which is how the main character in the series communicated with them (which is why he is called the "radio man").
It's all a lot more interesting than it sounds. I'm not arguing for putting them in the book (as I said, they're out at the moment), but they didn't just come out of nowhere and they do have a pretty strong pulp pedigree.
Not as strong as, say, the girallon or the rhemoraz, but strong enough that I'd like to keep them around in a secondary or tertiary monster book, probably as inhabitants of the Green Planet Castrovel rather than some sort of modron replacement.
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Creative Director
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While it would be great to know some clear exclusions or obvious inclusions, I'd also like to know how they will be different from MM. I'd also like to know whether you'll provide a section on converting monsters to Pathfinder.
We do know what monsters are in the book at this point, but until we're 100% sure (some might get cut, after all, if we aren't able to get them all on one page like we hope), we won't be releasing that list. The book does look like it'll have a pretty big section on how to design a monster though, I think...
It's all a lot more interesting than it sounds.
Nope. It all sounded interesting too.