Director of Brand Strategy
|
In my RotR playtest this week, we noticed that there's no way for a paladin to increase the number of times they can smite evil in a day. I think this would be a nice addition, to allow the same amount of class-ability-focus as you would for any other class who can take a feat to get more of a specific class feature.
|
Director of Games
|
In my RotR playtest this week, we noticed that there's no way for a paladin to increase the number of times they can smite evil in a day. I think this would be a nice addition, to allow the same amount of class-ability-focus as you would for any other class who can take a feat to get more of a specific class feature.
This one makes sense to me as well, but I am a little bit more hesitant, since Smite is undergoing a deal of change.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I would like to see this added....
BUT...
I would love to see it not be necessary.
|
In my RotR playtest this week, we noticed that there's no way for a paladin to increase the number of times they can smite evil in a day. I think this would be a nice addition, to allow the same amount of class-ability-focus as you would for any other class who can take a feat to get more of a specific class feature.This one makes sense to me as well, but I am a little bit more hesitant, since Smite is undergoing a deal of change.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Oh thank ye gods... and with one sentence you have given me new hope and love for playing a paladin in the beta.
|
Please put my name on the Extra Smiting Feat Waiting List. My greatest hope is that Smite is uber cool (balanced to all other classes of course) and that when the smoke clears there is a feat that you could choose that would increase the number of times you could do it. But I would also hope that in the grand scheme of things it isn't a "Neccessary" feat but a cool option. That the player would look at extra smite and several other feats and have hard choices to make. I love choices that are hard because they are all good ones!
I would also hope that in the grand scheme of things it isn't a "Neccessary" feat but a cool option. That the player would look at extra smite and several other feats and have hard choices to make. I love choices that are hard because they are all good ones!
Yes, IMO the way SMITE works currently this almost seems like it would be... dare I say it... a FEAT TAX. See, now you've done it! I've gone and used a cliche forum term! Ack! *grumbles, passes out pitchforks & torches*
|
|
Please put my name on the Extra Smiting Feat Waiting List. My greatest hope is that Smite is uber cool (balanced to all other classes of course) and that when the smoke clears there is a feat that you could choose that would increase the number of times you could do it. But I would also hope that in the grand scheme of things it isn't a "Neccessary" feat but a cool option. That the player would look at extra smite and several other feats and have hard choices to make. I love choices that are hard because they are all good ones!
Count me in on this band-wangon!
Of course the 1000 posts on the paladin thread should tell the story of the drama that is smite evil.
Extra Smite feat just makes sense if you have extra (insert other cool class features here).
Robert
|
|
I would also hope that in the grand scheme of things it isn't a "Neccessary" feat but a cool option. That the player would look at extra smite and several other feats and have hard choices to make. I love choices that are hard because they are all good ones!Yes, IMO the way SMITE works currently this almost seems like it would be... dare I say it... a FEAT TAX. See, now you've done it! I've gone and used a cliche forum term! Ack! *grumbles, passes out pitchforks & torches*
I know when building my paladin the first thing I went looking for in the book was extra smiting, and had to look for something else when I found out it didn't exist because aparently smite is the best class feature in the 3.5 game. Right up there with a high strength *rolls eyes*
|
|
I know when building my paladin the first thing I went looking for in the book was extra smiting, and had to look for something else when I found out it didn't exist because aparently smite is the best class feature in the 3.5 game. Right up there with a high strength *rolls eyes*
What? Build a Paladin without a high strength? are you nuts thats just crazy talk. Paladin requires a high strength didn't you know that? Sheesh you are talking like this crazy guy over in the Paladin boards who Dared to make a paladin with an 11 Str...he should just stop playing since he obviously doesn't know that without a strength score a paladin is a waste of space...[/sarcasm]
Starts making his picket signs, "H&#@ No! Smite must Go!"
Oops...sarcasm again sorry.
|
|
I know when building my paladin the first thing I went looking for in the book was extra smiting, and had to look for something else when I found out it didn't exist because aparently smite is the best class feature in the 3.5 game. Right up there with a high strength *rolls eyes*What? Build a Paladin without a high strength? are you nuts thats just crazy talk. Paladin requires a high strength didn't you know that? Sheesh you are talking like this crazy guy over in the Paladin boards who Dared to make a paladin with an 11 Str...he should just stop playing since he obviously doesn't know that without a strength score a paladin is a waste of space...[/sarcasm]
Starts making his picket signs, "H&#@ No! Smite must Go!"
Oops...sarcasm again sorry.
That guy finally listened to reason from what I hear, when he hit level 4 he put his point in strength, so now he has a 12 str, much more reasonable. But then I think he's planning on doing something crazy like putting a point in intelligence at level 8. Doesn't he know that only continuing to build stats that actively affect your class features is the only way to win D&D?
Or here is a radical idea. What if the feat let you add your Charisma bonus to the number of times per day you can smite...
So you mean something that should actually be built into the Smite Ability would now be a... FEAT TAX! *continues to hand out the pitchforks and torches to the angry cliche using mob*
|
|
So you mean something that should actually be built into the Smite Ability would now be a... FEAT TAX! *continues to hand out the pitchforks and torches to the angry cliche using mob*
That, of course, depends on Smite. If smite is uber cool (ie does good stuff but doesn't break the bank) then it would be a really good option, hopefully the kind of option that balanced against other feats means you have a really tough choice.
So you mean something that should actually be built into the Smite Ability would now be a... FEAT TAX! *continues to hand out the pitchforks and torches to the angry cliche using mob*Or here is a radical idea. What if the feat let you add your Charisma bonus to the number of times per day you can smite...
I think Daniel is right here. I know just last night I lost my second, and last smite of the day on a miss against a nasty Troll that we really needed to drop fast.
I am afraid that with smite in its current form I would probably just have to spend nearly every one of my feats on it. It is just to precious of a resource not to try to have enough of!
As I said above, yes this could be a good feat, but it should not be necessary. All of the other classes with extra (whatever ability) dont feel FORCED to take it to be effective, I am afraid that paladins would.
So you mean something that should actually be built into the Smite Ability would now be a... FEAT TAX! *continues to hand out the pitchforks and torches to the angry cliche using mob*Or here is a radical idea. What if the feat let you add your Charisma bonus to the number of times per day you can smite...
I think Daniel is right here. I know just last night I lost my second, and last smite of the day on a miss against a nasty Troll that we really needed to drop fast.
I am afraid that with smite in its current form I would probably just have to spend nearly every one of my feats on it. It is just to precious of a resource not to try to have enough of!
As I said above, yes this could be a good feat, but it should not be necessary. All of the other classes with extra (whatever ability) dont feel FORCED to take it to be effective, I am afraid that paladins would.
Before I get skewered in most uncomfortable places with pitchforks, there is a way that this could work, and maybe satisfy the paladin Smite problem all in one go.
Give the paladin a very small number of paladin related bonus feats. This way, the paladin could be largely left as it is in the Pathfinder Beta book. More Smites as LKL has suggested could be a feat, or a small but always on damage boost against evil working like Vult has suggested, could be chosen at first level. So...
Paladin Bonus Feats: At 1st level, a paladin gets a bonus feat from the following list in addition to the feat that any 1st-level character receives (and the bonus feat granted to human characters). The paladin gains an additional bonus feat from the list at 6th level, 12th level and a final bonus feat at 18th level. A paladin must meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums. These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that a character gets from advancing levels. A paladin is not limited to the list of bonus feats presented here when choosing normally gained feats.
Divine Might - Charisma modifier as additional damage in normal melee attacks against evil characters.
Extra Lay on Hands - As Pathfinder RPG description
Extra Turning - As Pathfinder RPG description
Improved Smiting - Adds your Charisma bonus to the number of times per day you can smite.
Leadership - As Pathfinder RPG description
Mounted Combat - As Pathfinder RPG description
Power Attack - As Pathfinder RPG description
Stunning Smite - Some sort of alternative Smite effect?
Turning Smite - As Pathfinder RPG description
Weapon Focus - As Pathfinder RPG description
Backwards compatibility is preserved better - after all, the changes are in the feats. There are only a few feats slots (4 in total), to not upset the class or impinge on the fighter. It also creates a mechanic for future supplements to simply 'add in' feats to this list.
No, put down the pitchfork. It was only an idea, that's all...
Chobbly
Before I get skewered in most uncomfortable places with pitchforks, there is a way that this could work, and maybe satisfy the paladin Smite problem all in one go.
Give the paladin a very small number of paladin related bonus feats. This way, the paladin could be largely left as it is in the Pathfinder Beta book. More Smites as LKL has suggested could be a feat, or a small but always on damage boost against evil working like Vult has suggested, could be chosen at first level. So...
Paladin Bonus Feats: At 1st level, a paladin gets a bonus feat from the following list in addition to the feat that any 1st-level character receives (and the bonus feat granted to human characters). The paladin gains an additional bonus feat from the list at 6th level, 12th level and a final bonus feat at 18th level. A paladin must meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums. These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that a character gets from advancing levels. A paladin is not limited to the list of bonus feats presented here when choosing normally gained feats.
Divine Might - Charisma modifier as additional damage in normal melee attacks against evil characters.
Extra Lay on Hands - As Pathfinder RPG description
Extra Turning - As Pathfinder RPG description
Improved Smiting - Adds your Charisma bonus to the number of times per day you can smite.
Leadership - As Pathfinder RPG description
Mounted Combat - As Pathfinder RPG description
Power Attack - As Pathfinder RPG description
Stunning Smite - Some sort of alternative Smite effect?
Turning Smite - As Pathfinder RPG description
Weapon Focus - As Pathfinder RPG descriptionBackwards compatibility is preserved better - after all, the changes are in the feats. There are only a few feats slots (4 in total), to not upset the class or impinge on the fighter. It also creates a mechanic for future supplements to simply 'add in' feats to this list.
No, put down the pitchfork. It was only an idea, that's all...
Chobbly
I could get on board with this one. After all, many of the other classes who have feats that bump up an ability they already have, gain bonus feats.
A small amount of feats for the paladin would not destroy the game, and would allow the paladin to progress the way the player wants (better than it is now).
Also the addition of Divine might is a good idea, though I feel that should be a class feature, not a feat.
Also the addition of Divine might is a good idea, though I feel that should be a class feature, not a feat.
For what it's worth Vult, I agree, but I just wondered if it would be more salesworthy in a mechanic like this. It's a moot point for me, as most of my paladins would take it at first level, but at least the option is there, giving the paladin a little flexibility without stepping on the fighter's feat chains. Cavalier paladins could take the Mounted Combat feat, for example.
If there were ever cleric only feats, appropriate ones could also be drip-fed into the paladin class using this bonus feat structure too.
Chobbly
|
|
I am very much on board with the Paladin getting a small amount of bonus feats, as it is many players already feel the need to suplement the class with a level of fighter, that would help with that. I would add the shield feats to the list of bonus feats you can choose from as the paladin is the iconic shield user.
4 feats over a period of 15-20 levels won't step on the fighter's toes. (I have boarded over my windows and readied the basement with food and water to withstand the siege I am about to undergo for suggesting such a thing)
|
|
Also the addition of Divine might is a good idea, though I feel that should be a class feature, not a feat.
For what it's worth Vult, I agree, but I just wondered if it would be more salesworthy in a mechanic like this. It's a moot point for me, as most of my paladins would take it at first level, but at least the option is there, giving the paladin a little flexibility without stepping on the fighter's feat chains. Cavalier paladins could take the Mounted Combat feat, for example.
If there were ever cleric only feats, appropriate ones could also be drip-fed into the paladin class using this bonus feat structure too.
Chobbly
Is it your intention with your idea that these new feats that can be taken (Imp Smite, Divine Might), be feats that can be selected as a normal feat that a character gains at every odd level?
Regardless, I foresee both such feats being taken by 9 out of 10 paladins. This brings up the issue that "all paladins are built the same way and start to look the same."
Which then brings up a point: we've all heard and stated things like, "If a class absolutely NEEDS a feat in order to be functional, the the class needs to be modified." The 1000+ paladin thread is chok-full of these comments.
That all being said - I really like your idea, (as a compromise) and I can get behind it; thanks for sharing. However, if those are standard feats that can taken at any time, I can guarantee you that every paladin I make would have both such feats at 1st level! (and yours too by the sound of it.), and so would Vult's and LastKnights I'm sure.
So that brings us back to.... "....the class needs modified."
As for EXTRA SMITE. I'm not sure what Jason is doing with it, but regardless, if it remains a feature that is used as a "per day" ability (Like Lay on Hands, Rage, Channeling, Stun, etc) there should be a feat that adds 2 more uses in the same fashion.
Robert
|
|
I am very much on board with the Paladin getting a small amount of bonus feats, as it is many players already feel the need to suplement the class with a level of fighter, that would help with that. I would add the shield feats to the list of bonus feats you can choose from as the paladin is the iconic shield user.
4 feats over a period of 15-20 levels won't step on the fighter's toes. (I have boarded over my windows and readied the basement with food and water to withstand the siege I am about to undergo for suggesting such a thing)
No seige from me - I totally agree that they need these - since all but three classes gain bonus feats.
But that is for a different discussion - one about paladins and we should probably make one in the paladin design focus forum..... :-)
Robert
I am very much on board with the Paladin getting a small amount of bonus feats, as it is many players already feel the need to suplement the class with a level of fighter, that would help with that. I would add the shield feats to the list of bonus feats you can choose from as the paladin is the iconic shield user.
4 feats over a period of 15-20 levels won't step on the fighter's toes. (I have boarded over my windows and readied the basement with food and water to withstand the siege I am about to undergo for suggesting such a thing)
No seige from me - I totally agree that they need these - since all but three classes gain bonus feats.
But that is for a different discussion - one about paladins and we should probably make one in the paladin design focus forum..... :-)
Robert
I agree wholeheartedly, and not wanting to thread-jack I've responded over there instead.
Chobbly