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From RPGnet Forums:
The post brings up a valid concern not only about the Pathfinder APs, but published modules in general.
So, Erik, Jason, Joshua, etc., how are Paizo products playtested? I think I read somewhere that the writer(s) are responsible for making sure the encounters are balanced and all that jazz.
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I would expect claims of a "shocking lack" to be backed up by more than a single example encounter from 12 issues ago. Certainly, there's a rough patch or two in most modules, but nothing that fits the bill of a "shocking lack of playtesting." Nothing that matches the editing problems present in "Rescue at Rivenroar" or the balance issues for "Keep on the Shadowfell" as an introductory module.
From RPGnet Forums:
The post brings up a valid concern not only about the Pathfinder APs, but published modules in general.
So, Erik, Jason, Joshua, etc., how are Paizo products playtested? I think I read somewhere that the writer(s) are responsible for making sure the encounters are balanced and all that jazz.
At the rate these adventures are written and published, I would be surprised if playtesting is done at all, and 100% shocked if more than 1 group playtested a particular adventure.
As far as I know the writers and the Editor (James Jacobs) are in charge of balacing the adventures and encounters and I think they do a pretty darn good job. Sometimes encounters are too hard, and sometimes too easy, but this isn't a video game after all..it's ok to have some 'unbalanced realism' in a roleplaying game.
Creative Director
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As far as I know the writers and the Editor (James Jacobs) are in charge of balacing the adventures and encounters and I think they do a pretty darn good job. Sometimes encounters are too hard, and sometimes too easy, but this isn't a video game after all..it's ok to have some 'unbalanced realism' in a roleplaying game.
We do not playtest adventures in house, as a general rule. We don't have time. Printing adventures on a monthly schedule like we're doing simply doesn't afford us time to playtest everything. The developer's job is to ensure that things are balanced, and again, at 200 some pages a month, there WILL be cases like the last bad guy of Pathfinder #2 slipping through that are probably too tough.
As a result, the actual playtesting of adventures is something that we more or less require our authors to handle. We have no way of "enforcing" this, of course, but it's generally easy to tell if an author's done a playtest or not.
In the end, though... the tricky part about balancing encounters is that what's balanced for one group won't be for another. Presenting an adventure really IS a multiple person job. The author, the editor, the developer, and the GM all have to do their part of the job to make something work; if one of those four fails, the other three need to step in and take up some of that responsibility. We can control three of those four, and do so to try our best to make the GM's job as easy as possible... but sometimes there are failures on all three parts there and it falls to the GM to realize that something slipped through that might be a bit out of hand for his or her group.
We do our best to make sure that said incidents don't happen often, of course, and when they do, we do our best to learn from those errors.
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Creative Director
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And correct them, if possible. I noticed the re-release of the PFS Black Water scenario. Thanks!
We do our best to make sure that said incidents don't happen often, of course, and when they do, we do our best to learn from those errors.
Yup! The Scenarios are handy that way. We can't really do that with print products... but we CAN learn from those errors and stop throwing CR 11 monsters at 6th level parties! :)
... but we CAN learn from those errors and stop throwing CR 11 monsters at 6th level parties! :)
Bah! I say that if by 4th level the PCs haven't already conquered the future and returned with their Aeon-Lazor XII6 rifles and contingents of moon angels--as I feel the adventure implies they should--I'm not sure that their fates can be helped.
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... but we CAN learn from those errors and stop throwing CR 11 monsters at 6th level parties! :)Bah! I say that if by 4th level the PCs haven't already conquered the future and returned with their Aeon-Lazor XII6 rifles and contingents of moon angels--as I feel the adventure implies they should--I'm not sure that their fates can be helped.
Should "Killer DM" be added to Schneider's Managing Editor's title? :)
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Should "Killer DM" be added to Schneider's Managing Editor's title? :)... but we CAN learn from those errors and stop throwing CR 11 monsters at 6th level parties! :)Bah! I say that if by 4th level the PCs haven't already conquered the future and returned with their Aeon-Lazor XII6 rifles and contingents of moon angels--as I feel the adventure implies they should--I'm not sure that their fates can be helped.
Only if we get to find out what the F. stands for.
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Very Carefully ;)
DM: Your party enters or comes to a place that may or may not have features of interest.
Player1: Um... Is there a monster?
Player2: Oh gods it a trap!
DM: There may or may not be monsters
Player2: I make a Spot check! *rolls dice*
DM: You may have seen something... or nothing
Player3: I cast fireball into the middle of the room! *rolls dice*
DM: You might have hit something... *rolls dice*
DM: You take 20 damage
Player2: Oh no! What from?
DM: Your not sure...
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Creative Director
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This raises another question in my mind: How does a writer for Paizo navigate any non-disclosure requirements while also meeting the objective of a well playtested submission?
We don't require our authors to sign NDAs. They write their adventures and we print them. They're free to share their adventures with whoever they want; they're ENCOURAGED to do so, to playtest them or to get friends to do proofing passes to look for errors, in fact.
The contracts we have our authors sign basically say something like, "Don't be a jerk and sell this adventure to other companies when you're trying to sell it to us," but that's about as draconian we get.
I'd just like to say that Valeros died 8 times during the play-test for the cover scene in "History of Ashes". Ah, good times.
(If only we'd known of Seelah back then to match that awesome art. . .)
Actually, I'd say we ran that particular encounter about 12 times as I tried to finely titrate the deadliness while my players chucked various gaming memorabilia at me. My recollection is that they didn't warm-up to the concept right away.
Valeros died in individual grizzly attempts to cut his way out of the creature's belly. In his defense, he was the designated diver.
I believe the Paizo-gods had to further adjust the encounter. . .