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Enjoy: The Rogue I really like how it's built especially the talents.
Hate: The luck Bonus of Divine Power and making Druid's wilshape ability helpless and full power attacking with nerf bat to the point where it's useless aside for scouting or disguising.
Huh: The slight nerf of Bardic Knowledge, then again I always played where bardic knowledge gave effectively a +1 to all knowledge.
Hate: The luck Bonus of Divine Power and making Druid's wilshape ability helpless
I actually like those, as they tone down abilities that were too good before.
and full power attacking with nerf bat to the point where it's useless aside for scouting or disguising.
What?
Huh: The slight nerf of Bardic Knowledge, then again I always played where bardic knowledge gave effectively a +1 to all knowledge.
That one you have to explain to me. Instead of a single pseudo-knowledge skill, or your houserule of a +1 to knowledge, we now have an extra skill point for one knowledge skill, the ability to use all knowledge skills untrained, and +1/2 level on all knowledge skills, and you call that slight nerfing?
Personally, I call that a serious boost.
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Personally, I really like the new fighter. I know there is a ton of fix/change this discussion about it, but I like what is presented in the Beta.
The only thing I "hate" is the underwear picture of the races and that's being redone for the hardcover.
Huh? Well, I still think sneak attack damage should only apply to the first attack out of multiples. Rouges shouldn't be-able to out-damage fighters.
Enjoy: I'm really liking the new fighter so far. I'm also pleased with Channel Energy.
Hate (well not really): If I "have" to hate something, I guess I'll pick on the Skill's consolidation. I really liked this at first but it still creates the most confusion at the table, as in "What fricken skill is that now?" It sounds odd, especially since I never thought it would be an issue until we began playing. Yet in the grand scheme of things, it really isn't a big deal.
Huh? Well, I still think sneak attack damage should only apply to the first attack out of multiples. Rouges shouldn't be-able to out-damage fighters.
I'll make that one of my 'huh?' votes too.
Enjoy: The fact that it's almost completely back compatible!
Hate: The fact that the Paladin's mount has been left behind in the Paladin's upgrades. If they can summon their new shiny sword more than once, but not their trusty edition-spanning mount!
How about letting them both be drawn from the same pool? It's worked so far in our playtests.
Huh: Combat Expertise. Huh? If it aint broke, don't fix it!
Peace,
tfad
Enjoy: Channeling, CMB, almost everything.
Hate: Information Architecture. The SRD layout was weak, requiring hypertext to be worth anything. The Beta's layout is the SRD with with alpha pasted in. Things need to be rearranged.
Huh? : Use rope as grapple?
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What?
and full power attacking with nerf bat to the point where it's useless aside for scouting or disguising.
I was talking about how bad they nerfed wildshape to the point it's useless for combat.
Huh: The slight nerf of Bardic Knowledge, then again I always played where bardic knowledge gave effectively a +1 to all knowledge.
That one you have to explain to me. Instead of a single pseudo-knowledge skill, or your houserule of a +1 to knowledge, we now have an extra skill point for one knowledge skill, the ability to use all knowledge skills untrained, and +1/2 level on all knowledge skills, and you call that slight nerfing?
Personally, I call that a serious boost.
So far for the past five years the DMs I played with interpreted Bardic knowledge as a +1 to all knowledge skill untrained except you can't take 10.
It could've been house rules (although I never noticed it in the house rules) but what ever...
So far for the past five years the DMs I played with interpreted Bardic knowledge as a +1 to all knowledge skill untrained except you can't take 10.
It could've been house rules (although I never noticed it in the house rules) but what ever...
Bardic Knowledge in 3.5 is a separate ability where you roll bard level + int against DCs to get general information about the local happenings.
In your house rule, all you gain is +1 to knowledge skills and the ability to do it untrained.
Now Pathfinder grants you an extra skill point above and beyond those you get from your class, race, int, favoured class, etc, but it must be put into a knowledge skill. You can do all knowledge skills untrained. And finally, you gain +1/2 your level as a bonus to all knowledge skills.
The thing I don't get is that you call that a nerf. It's actually a lot more useful than before, and more practical (since you have the pre-defined knowledge skills and not a vague definition, though that wasn't too bad I guess)
I love the new wildshape mechanic.
I love rogues doing even /more/ damage now thanks to Bleeding.
I hate skill consolidation. I -hate- it.
I hate getting rid of the small army of skill points at first level.
It's so much harder now to add very small crunch but large in fluff skills to your character without truly *wasting* skill points.
(i.e. before, i could drop a point into swim or craft:underwater basketweaving without meanginfully adding or subtracting to the power lvel of the character, while adding significantly to the realism of his backstory. Since beginning points have been slashed so drastically, that is no longer an option I have.)
-S
Hate: The luck Bonus of Divine Power and making Druid's wilshape ability helpless and full power attacking with nerf bat to the point where it's useless aside for scouting or disguising.
Divine Power - You do realize that when you first cast it, thats a +2 to those roles, the equivelent of a +4 to your strength score, and it scales to the equivelent of a +12 to your Strength score. When you first are able to cast the spell a 7th level, sure you dont get the +6 enhancement bonus to Strength. At 9th level it becomes an equivelent of a +6 to Strength, and at 12th a +8, 15th +10, 18th +12. Pretty sweet if you ask me.
And instead of the fighter base attack bonus you get an extra attack. Maybe the bab would be better, but the extra attack kind of makes up for it, unless of course your also hasted....Wildshape nefed - Why do you think it has been nerfed? You keep your own scores (which are often better than those of an animal) and gain bonuses to your ability scores above what you already have, depending on your new form. If we just go with basic wildshape, you gain the benifit of Beast Shape I. This gives you climb, fly, swim, darkvision, low-light and scent if the creature you tutn into has it.
If the creature you turn into is small you gain a +2 to Dex, and +1 natural armor
If the creature is medium, you gain a +2 Str, and +2 natural armor
Dont forget that it is a polymorph school spell, so you go to that school, and find: that if you gain a swim speed, you can breath underwater, you gain the natural attack of the creature, you use you BAB and now modified stength. YOu still loose your armor, but other things that have a constant bonus still apply. You also gaion the base speed of the form you take.
So instead of having to look back and forthe between wolf stats and your own, you just apply the bonuses, find out what thier natural attack is, and BAM, you are ready to go.
Now sure, you dont get a wolf's trip ability, but oh well.
If you have an average Stength, your still doing the same damage as a wolf is. Now, sure, you are not as strong as a brown bear, but i dont think that beast form I (or any of its better forms) are to be looked down. THere is a lot less fiddling with betweeen MM and Character Sheet, and you know what your going to do damage wise, It might not be as awsome as being able to take the form of a brown brear with a 19 Strength, but its still a decent power, and combat worthy.
Your own (physical scores) are likely worse than the animal. Especially if you take advantage of this by say... 8 str 8 dex, then wildshape into anything and get better physical stats by far with no drawback since Natural Spell exists and is standard.
'I Wildshape into a Grizzly bear.' is code for 'One melee character and one spellcaster character isn't enough coming from one player, so I'll turn myself into a second melee at the same time, just to rub it in.'
Love: Class updates. Rogue talents, rage powers, paladin auras. No dead levels. This is GREAT stuff -- can't say enough good things about it. Really like poisons and diseases getting the equivalent of SR. Love the fact that I don't need to throw away or convert all my 3.5e adventures.
Hate: Wish language was clarified and terminology standardized. (e.g., pick a definition for "enchant" and stick with it; use "class level" or "caster level" or "character level" consistently and correctly; get an overly-precise grammatical geek to go over everything). I understand the playtest phase is intended just to get the ideas out there, so I'm optimistic this kind of proofing will occur before the hardcover is released.
Also: Would like skills consolidation revisited. I love the consolidated Perception skill, for example, but without the same treatment elsewhere, Perception is now a "super-skill," demonstrably better than almost all the others. Other skills should be consolidated and/or expanded to remain on a par with it.
Huh: Fighters' major limitations (no battlefield control ability, no spellcasting disruption ability, no real usefulness at high levels) not really fixed yet... hopefully new feats will address this.
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Divine Power - You do realize that when you first cast it, thats a +2 to those roles, the equivelent of a +4 to your strength score, and it scales to the equivelent of a +12 to your Strength score. When you first are able to cast the spell a 7th level, sure you dont get the +6 enhancement bonus to Strength. At 9th level it becomes an equivelent of a +6 to Strength, and at 12th a +8, 15th +10, 18th +12. Pretty sweet if you ask me.
And instead of the fighter base attack bonus you get an extra attack. Maybe the bab would be better, but the extra attack kind of makes up for it, unless of course your also hasted....
It's basically a Divine Favor with + to strength checks you'll use once in a blue moon and an extra attack that doesn't stack with haste which is an AOE buff that detects FoF, 30+ movement speed, +1 to hit ac ref for multiple allies that stacks with most buffs and for 1 level lower.
Wildshape nefed - Why do you think it has been nerfed? You keep your own scores (which are often better than those of an animal) and gain bonuses to your ability scores above what you already have, depending on your new form. If we just go with basic wildshape, you gain the benifit of Beast Shape I. This gives you climb, fly, swim, darkvision, low-light and scent if the creature you tutn into has it.
If the creature you turn into is small you gain a +2 to Dex, and +1 natural armor
If the creature is medium, you gain a +2 Str, and +2 natural armorDont forget that it is a polymorph school spell, so you go to that school, and find: that if you gain a swim speed, you can breath underwater, you gain the natural attack of the creature, you use you BAB and now modified stength. YOu still loose your armor, but other things that have a constant bonus still apply. You also gaion the base speed of the form you take.
I believe there is no animal that uses dark vision, and the bonus from beast shape are enhancement bonus meaning they can't be combined with most buffs. On top of this armor bonus cease to function including bracers of armor. What does that mean? It means your AC would be worst then a wizard/sorcerer. Yeah you can ask for Mage Armor buff, but that means taking resources from another player and looks pretty strange asking for armor buff from wearing armor. Not mention larger sizes provide a dex and size penalty to hit.
Natural weapons are inherently weaker then manufactured weapons. You can't have admantine, sliver or cold iron natural weapons so there goes a large portion of damage reductions. Not mention you need high strength to bypass damage reduction which beasthape doesn't give you. Yes you can wildshape to a form that only gives one attack for 1.5 strength but so can a someone else who has manufactured weapon but can make more then one attack. Not to mention that it cost significantly more to get bonus from Amulet of Mighty Fist, and how many Amulets of Mighty Fist are going to be part of treasure pool for society games?
So instead of having to look back and forthe between wolf stats and your own, you just apply the bonuses, find out what thier natural attack is, and BAM, you are ready to go.
Now sure, you dont get a wolf's trip ability, but oh well.
If you have an average Stength, your...
Except druids who prepare for games would have index cards/sheet of their stats when wildshape and or summons that are used often. And instead of looking back and forth between the wolf stats you just copy the animal's Str Dex and Con add the modifier to attack, and saves and bam you're done!
You don't gain a wolf's trip ability until 6th level...
It's basically a Divine Favor with + to strength checks you'll use once in a blue moon and an extra attack that doesn't stack with haste which is an AOE buff that detects FoF, 30+ movement speed, +1 to hit ac ref for multiple allies that stacks with most buffs and for 1 level lower.
You forgot the bonus also applies to attack rolls and weapon damage rolls. I already admitted I wasn’t sure that the exchange for the fighter BAB for an extra attack might not be worth it, in tone at least.
And instead of the fighter base attack bonus you get an extra attack. Maybe the bab would be better, but the extra attack kind of makes up for it, unless of course your also hasted....
It’s a toss up. Sometimes a wizard doesn’t do the haste thing.
And yes, your scores are going to be low, unless, you are planning to be a wildshape fighter. If you are, do you put your lowest in Strength? No, you try to make it so you are buff already. Is the spell/ability perfect? NO. And I totally nerfed myself for the missing enhancement bonus. As this is playtesting, these things happen. I would suggest making the bonus a shapechange bonus. Perhaps they made it an enhancement bonus for a reason. But the biggest problem with wildshape and with all the polymorph spells before was the vast differences that a person could change into with the same spell or ability.
Druid could wildshape into a wolf or a black bear at the same level.
Wolf is a pitiful animal to turn into when you can change into a black bear. SOmething had to be done, so the did beast shapes. Maybe it would be better to limit it by CRs (since CR is a better gauge than HD or Size, and even then its still not perfect).
I know one thing that might make it work better. Each successively more powerful spell of beastshape should have a successivly more poweruful boost to shapes you could already take.
For example, using Beast Shape II to take on a Medium sized creature, you get a +4 to Str and AC? Could work I think, what do you think.
But totaly change the type of bonuses for sure, unless the type is there for a reason, which right now I can only think of the balance one. Shrugs. Not sure I like that idea.
ABout the darkvision:
We dont know yet, but maybe some animals in PRPG are going to have darkvion. THere are some animals, specificaly nocturnal ones, that should have darkvision, unless ambient light of nighttime is defined so we know how low-light works in the night out under a full moon, or under a new with lots of stars.
ABout the darkvision:
We dont know yet, but maybe some animals in PRPG are going to have darkvion. THere are some animals, specificaly nocturnal ones, that should have darkvision, unless ambient light of nighttime is defined so we know how low-light works in the night out under a full moon, or under a new with lots of stars.
Well, I think that it would depend on the campaign setting. A world like Eberron, for example, has 12 moons (+1 lost moon) and a geostationary ring of crystal on the equator line, so it is really difficult to have a "pitch-black" night in such a planet. Animals and other night creatures, due to natural selection, never had the need to develop a "night-vision" more powerful that low-light vision in such a world.
On the average, I would leave the "standard" visions as they are now.
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Love: The respect for previous editions of D&D.
Hate: Some of the playtest experience on the boards.
Huh: All the classes got better, some of the best classes got more than the others. Rogue, Wizard, and Cleric got some cool abilities, but Fighters, Monks, and Rangers only slightly improved. (Don't want more for the warriors, want less for spellcasters).
Enjoy: sorcerer bloodlines, getting rid of xp costs, rechargeable staves, druids with domains, kooky abilities for barbarians
Hate: some skill consolidations (e.g., Perception, Linguistics), taking clear wording and making it less clear (e.g. Slow and Steady), taking unclear wording and leaving it unclear (e.g. "no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed"), "Universal School" wizard specialization, nerfed Power Attack
Huh: total rewrite of clerical domains, changes to grapple, death spells do damage (but not Phantasmal Killer or Stone to Flesh), arcane bond items
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 4
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I like a LOT more than I dislike. Here's my list:
LOVE:
Sorcerer Bloodlines.
Most skill consolidation.
Channel Energy.
Fighter Weapon/Armor Training
Many of the new feats.
Undead get CHA to hit points.
Rogues can sneak attack more foes.
Change to Staves is superb.
Three tiers of XP advancement.
Removal of XP as a consumable resource.
Racial changes, Racial HP at first level, multiple Favored Classes.
Bonded Items as familiars/companions as part of core.
"Remove Condition" magic as an opposed check.
Item Illustrations are top-notch.
LOATHE:
Change to Damage Reduction. This is an essential tool for the DM. As a DM of high-level games, the only change I support is one where each +1 of a weapon's enhancement overcomes 5 points of DR/Magic.
More ways to critical hit, criticals still too swingy (sometimes moreso).
Items: Stat Boosters, Deflection, Natural AC, Resistance, Enhancement should all be properties on top of more interesting items. Not items all by themselves. This hasn't fixed the christmas tree, it just makes the ornaments bigger.
Some skills clearly got consolidated too far. Perception is a must-have, and it's too complicated to adjudicate on the fly.
PC's get more money at each level, but the prices of things haven't changed (much). Prices of skill items is now way out of line for how strong those skills have become. (stealth, perception)
HUH:
Fly Skill. This is just weird. It seems so out of place I can't even say if it's a good thing or a bad thing. It's definitely an awkward thing.
Feat names that don't describe (or really hint at) what the feat does. (Gorgon's Fist, etc.) Didn't people riot in the streets over stuff like this in 4E?
CMB. I'm not sure that we've found the right bonus/DC combination yet. Maneuvers that use CMB have not seemed to be attractive options in my playtests possibly due to high chance of failure.
Oh...I forgot the "Fly" skill. That's definitely one for the "Huh" pile.
Like:
Fighter bonuses, I don't feel bad taking more than 4!
Rogue Bonuses, I still won't take more than 4 though, multiple taking of talents could change my mind
Wizards, Not ganked at low levels, not much added at higher levels, and less worry about my regelar buffs, Generalist level 8 ability though... that's a doosy.
Sorcerer, Bloodlines are good offering choices beyond "I'm a wizard that isn't"
Feats every other level
Dislike:
Cleric, Channel energy is a beautiful thing, adding domains on top of it makes them almost too too good in my opinion.
Combat Feats, I liked the Alpha versions of most of these better.
Huh:
Fly skill? what/why/can I have what you are smoking?
I thought 'huh' on the creation section for skills and the one rank deal. But my players-to-be seem to 'enjoy' it. So, we're going with it. I'd still would have liked no restriction there. Atleast at level One. If a character's background was sailor and his/her strength was 10. You'd have only a +4 for swim. You couldn't have a background where you really good at something unless you had a really high ability modifier, because you can only have one rank. The one rank per level seems fine, but at first- I ...dunno how I feel 'bout it.
I'd still would have liked no restriction there. At least at level One. If a character's background was sailor and his/her strength was 10. You'd have only a +4 for swim. You couldn't have a background where you really good at something unless you had a really high ability modifier, because you can only have one rank.
In 3.5e: 4 ranks + 0 (Str) = +4 modifier.
In Pathfinder: 1 rank + 3 (class skill) + 0 (Str) = +4 modifier.That hasn't changed a bit; Pathfinder hasn't "cut back" at all, when you remember the in-class bonus, and at 2nd level, the Pathfinder character can have a +4 on four different skills, as opposed to a 3.5 character who could have +4 in two skills and only +1 in another two.
For a 1st level character with no natural talent (+0 ability modifier) to be really good at something isn't going to happen. You'd need to give them a few levels of Expert or something, or, more reasonably, expect them to be good at something that they actually have a knack for (like Swim for a guy with a big Str bonus).
If a character's background was sailor and his/her strength was 10. You'd have only a +4 for swim.
As opposed to 3.5, where you could have 4 ranks in swim at 1st level for a total modifier of +4.
Problem with the "new rank" system is that you can't have 1 rank in swim.
If its a class skill, then at first level you either sacrifice 1 skill point (and get 4), or you put in none, and get nothing.
I don't have 4 skill points to put, so i can't put 1 into 4 skills to build a "background".
I could do that in 3.5. I miss the ability to do that. I recently built a rogue- the quintessential "skill jock" and even with a high int and taking favored class (skill pt) and being human, it still would cost him as much to do a "flavor" skill as it would to select a skill he actually planned to use.
In effect, the new skill system has no room for flavor. You only have room for crunch..
-S
Problem with the "new rank" system is that you can't have 1 rank in swim.
If its a class skill, then at first level you either sacrifice 1 skill point (and get 4), or you put in none, and get nothing.
I don't have 4 skill points to put, so i can't put 1 into 4 skills to build a "background".
See, this line of debate drives me bonkers.
"I have this great background idea that my character is a mediocre swimmer, but without something written on my character sheet, I can't PROVE he's a mediocre swimmer! What shall I do?"
I have a great idea that says my guy knows how to whittle small wooden animals out of wood, but isn't very good at it.
What can I do?
I can pump my attribute and hope the skill isn't a "hafta have a skill point to use it".
I can dump 1 point into it, and give up a potential useful ability in the process.
I can say "oh well, don't want that anyway".
Not really a good set of choices.
Prior to this, i could make the decision to give my guy 1 rank in a few skills- knowing his attribute was decent enough to still make it usable. Now that 1 skill point *is worth *four times as much* as it used to be.
Want to emulate your character knowing a little about magic without gimping him? Too bad. They removed that ability.
The same goes for everything.
"I know a little about X, but I went on to become an adventurer now" has now become either "I know nothing" or "I know alot". I don't really care for that.
Creating a first level character before wasn't overly complicated before. It isn't overly complicated now. But something has -definately- been lost in the translation.
What you have lost, is the ability to put those 3 other points where you want them, rather than having the game decide where they go for you.
Maybe I *want* to spend 4 points to get 2 ranks at level 1. Maybe I want to put 2 points into 2 skills, rather than 4 into one and 0 into the other. Its an option that I don't have anymore.
I prefer expanded options. This is an option they have removed, and I truly wish they had not.
-S
I have a great idea that says my guy knows how to whittle small wooden animals out of wood, but isn't very good at it.
What can I do?
I can pump my attribute and hope the skill isn't a "hafta have a skill point to use it".
Generally this would be the solution, I think. If it only makes a one or two point difference, why worry about it?
FWIW, I used to think this was a big change. But now I realise that no one will ever know whether my character has one rank in Profession (cooking) or not, unless I show them my sheet.
[Sorry for the off-topic digression, folks.]
True, except that I can't say my character has knowledge of something they don't.
(at least- not without a bluff check.. or whatever that's been rolled into now)
-S
I have a great idea that says my guy knows how to whittle small wooden animals out of wood, but isn't very good at it. What can I do?I realise that no one will ever know whether my character has one rank in Profession (cooking) or not, unless I show them my sheet.
Maybe the thing is to only "charge" for skills that have an in-game effect. Craft (whittle small wooden animals) does not, so give up to 1 rank/level (less, if the player prefers) for free, as part of the backstory. As it is, Craft (woodcarving) can hardly compete with Acrobatics on equal footing (pun intended, but the point is still valid) -- so why should it cost the same # of points?
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Like: new fighter and rogue. I get a feat like every level now. CMB rocks. Sunder is actually possible now. Three XP progression charts. Spell nerfs. Skill system, I actually feel quasi competent now.
Hate: Fly skill? Please, ignored completely. The beta layout isn't so great but I realize it's a temporary document. Spells in the back FTW.
I still wouldn't ride a base class to 20th level but things have improved somewhat.
HUH: Why is a glove of storing so damn expensive?
I'm enjoying the Beta more than I did 3.5. Frankly I was sick of the crazy.
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Maybe the thing is to only "charge" for skills that have an in-game effect. Craft (whittle small wooden animals) does not, so give up to 1 rank/level (less, if the player prefers) for free, as part of the backstory. As it is, Craft (woodcarving) can hardly compete with Acrobatics on equal footing (pun intended, but the point is still valid) -- so why should it cost the same # of points?I have a great idea that says my guy knows how to whittle small wooden animals out of wood, but isn't very good at it. What can I do?I realise that no one will ever know whether my character has one rank in Profession (cooking) or not, unless I show them my sheet.
Or give two 'free' skill points at first level, and only first level, that can only be spent on craft and profession skills. That way you have background, but if you want to advance, you need to sacrifice. To be honest, having it for any skill probably wouldn't unbalance things. It allows you more creativity for back story but doesn't bump power significantly as within 2 levels, the skill is worthless unless you've invested skill points in bumping it up.
I know this is beating a dead horse, as this issue is already decided, but I really liked the skill system the way it was.