Ok I started up a new campaign with two players playing a 10th level Sorceress and a 10th Level Fighter and me as DM running a 10th Level Rogue NPC with the party. We got into a fight in a Section of the City of Riddleport in the Pathfinder Chronicles campaign world. Well during the fight one of the players decided he was going to throw some grappling moves on a lone archer that was sniping at the party from an upper story window (that is after he had found where the archer was and got to his location)my mind immediately went to what a headache grappling had been under standard 3.5 but right there while we were playing I quickly reviewed the CMB rules and the grappling section and that fighter through that guy all over the place. The CMB rules made this encounter run very simply, quickly and smoothly. We actually had tons of fun running a grappling encounter it was one of the best combats that I had run in a while. Thank you Paizo for CMB it is really a sweet system. I used to say that Pathfinder is the real D&D now but after this encounter I am tempted to say that Pathfinder is not D&D it is ten times better than anything D&D ever dreamed of being.
Charles
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I just ran into a potential problem with Grapples under Pathfinder rules (well it went in my favour as a player, but in general could be a problem).
Our party was up against a tiny character who was very quick and with plenty of magic to make his AC even higher. We were all struggling to hit it.
And then I tried to grapple it. As far as I am aware, the Pathfinder RPG removes the need to make a touch attack first, you just go straight to a CMB test. Well although the creature was very quick, he wasn't that strong (Str Mod of +0 I guess), therefore his CMB score worked out to be only +1 (BAB of +3, Strength +0 and Size mod of -2).
Meanwhile I had a CMB of +6 (normally +4 but I has Enlarge Person cast on me to make me Large and give me extra Str).
It was a simple matter to grapple the foe even though I shoudl have been struggling to hit it.
It would seem that Grapple could turn out to be the default method to attack a small sized creature as it side steps their Touch AC. I can see Improved Grapple becoming a very much desired feat.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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I just ran into a potential problem with Grapples under Pathfinder rules (well it went in my favour as a player, but in general could be a problem).
Our party was up against a tiny character who was very quick and with plenty of magic to make his AC even higher. We were all struggling to hit it.
And then I tried to grapple it. As far as I am aware, the Pathfinder RPG removes the need to make a touch attack first, you just go straight to a CMB test. Well although the creature was very quick, he wasn't that strong (Str Mod of +0 I guess), therefore his CMB score worked out to be only +1 (BAB of +3, Strength +0 and Size mod of -2).
Meanwhile I had a CMB of +6 (normally +4 but I has Enlarge Person cast on me to make me Large and give me extra Str).
It was a simple matter to grapple the foe even though I shoudl have been struggling to hit it.
It would seem that Grapple could turn out to be the default method to attack a small sized creature as it side steps their Touch AC. I can see Improved Grapple becoming a very much desired feat.
What was the creature's DEX? A PRPG version of that creature might have 'agile maneuvers' so that his CMB is calculated with DEX not STR.
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I wonder about the CMB of the archer.
Generally, grappling only works against opponents who are much weaker than you.
If they have a CMB 5 or lower, you will succeed about 50% of the time, and they will not be able to perform a CMB against you.
Do you realize how many monsters have a CMB 5 or more higher than the PCs at the appropriate level?
I'd like to see level three PCs having a chance to grapple an ogre. It may not be smart, but it should be possible. Now it is not.
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I wonder about the CMB of the archer.
Generally, grappling only works against opponents who are much weaker than you.
If they have a CMB 5 or lower, you will succeed about 50% of the time, and they will not be able to perform a CMB against you.
Do you realize how many monsters have a CMB 5 or more higher than the PCs at the appropriate level?
I'd like to see level three PCs having a chance to grapple an ogre. It may not be smart, but it should be possible. Now it is not.
That depends upon if you use the rules as written or as intended.
As written grappling, or any maneuver, is drop dead easy for the attacker- by level 10 all things equal a fighter fails a manuever only on a roll of 1.
As intended it becomes a bit more difficult, but still it is not that difficult to do. You just hold your breath a bit more.
The biggest problem with grappling is that it's a standard action to maintain. That means if a Kraken with a dozen tentacles grapples one guy thats it. No more attacks or grapples.
I want scenes like from 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea where one creature can latch on two multiple opponents. Or the giant crab in RoTRL, as soon as it grapples it can't even attack with the other claw. There's not even the opportunity for the penalty like in 3.5.
Maybe a monster feat that makes maintaining a free action.
What I've been doing is having the creature attack, grapple, inflict their grapple special (crush, rend, tear, whatever) and then let go at the end of their action.
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The biggest problem with grappling is that it's a standard action to maintain. That means if a Kraken with a dozen tentacles grapples one guy thats it. No more attacks or grapples.
I want scenes like from 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea where one creature can latch on two multiple opponents. Or the giant crab in RoTRL, as soon as it grapples it can't even attack with the other claw. There's not even the opportunity for the penalty like in 3.5.
Maybe a monster feat that makes maintaining a free action.
What I've been doing is having the creature attack, grapple, inflict their grapple special (crush, rend, tear, whatever) and then let go at the end of their action.
I agree. I would expect these kinds of critters to get a special ability that allows them to do more during a grapple. Sort of like Pounce lets you Charge and do a full attack.
See, I want a fight that can go along the lines of having the creature attack, grapple the fighter, inflict their grapple special (crush, rend, tear, whatever). Next round it maintains the grapple on the fighter, inflicts the grapple special, looks at the barbarian, laughs and says "You're next pretty boy." It then grapples the barbarian, inflicts grapple special, the looks down on the cleric and wizard and lunges forward to rip the throat out of the wizard. Round three it tosses the fighter and barbarian as ranged weapons at the cleric, lunges forward and eats the cleric. Then on round four it picks up the crunchy fighter and gooey barbarian to finish its dinner.
Now THAT is a fight. Bodies flying all over, tentacles waving about, beaky mouth snapping, blood flowing. Yeah warms the cold recesses of my heart. *sigh* Need to kill a few PCs now.
The biggest problem with grappling is that it's a standard action to maintain. That means if a Kraken with a dozen tentacles grapples one guy thats it. No more attacks or grapples.
I want scenes like from 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea where one creature can latch on two multiple opponents. Or the giant crab in RoTRL, as soon as it grapples it can't even attack with the other claw. There's not even the opportunity for the penalty like in 3.5.
Maybe a monster feat that makes maintaining a free action.
What I've been doing is having the creature attack, grapple, inflict their grapple special (crush, rend, tear, whatever) and then let go at the end of their action.
I agree. I would expect these kinds of critters to get a special ability that allows them to do more during a grapple. Sort of like Pounce lets you Charge and do a full attack.
See, I want a fight that can go along the lines of having the creature attack, grapple the fighter, inflict their grapple special (crush, rend, tear, whatever). Next round it maintains the grapple on the fighter, inflicts the grapple special, looks at the barbarian, laughs and says "You're next pretty boy." It then grapples the barbarian, inflicts grapple special, the looks down on the cleric and wizard and lunges forward to rip the throat out of the wizard. Round three it tosses the fighter and barbarian as ranged weapons at the cleric, lunges forward and eats the cleric. Then on round four it picks up the crunchy fighter and gooey barbarian to finish its dinner.
Now THAT is a fight. Bodies flying all over, tentacles waving about, beaky mouth snapping, blood flowing. Yeah warms the cold recesses of my heart. *sigh* Need to kill a few PCs now.
If your post is any indication of how you actually DM, i wish i was one of your PCs.. lol :)
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Our group tends to use the rules "more as a guideline than rules." One guy who GMs doesn't bother to stat out critters at all. He knows what he wants them to do and they do it.
I do stat them out, but I try to imagine how the fight would look in a movie or how it would feel in a book, and I aim for that as my goal in playing. I'm not a killer GM, but I sure will batter the heck out the PCs and make them piss their armor a lot (they use Prestidigitation a lot). lol
I like the feel of adventure books and try to recreate that in play.
A bar fight I would design like this...
A punch is thrown... tables are upturned, PCs are pushed and shoved. Nonlethal blows are flying all over. The rogue rises, takes the barmaid in his arms and plants a kiss on her. She of course slaps him. The fighter runs up the stairs and leaps into the fray, arms wide and grapples two commoners. The wizard craps his pants and cowers under a table since he can either kill with his spells or be pummeled. The cleric stands up and says "Can't we all just get along?" The fighter throws a mug of ale at the cleric and returns to pummeling the commoners whose friends try to pull the fighter off.
Meanwhile the rogue wanders from table to table picking up loose gold from gambling games interupted. The wizard figures what the hell and makes the barmaids dress turn invisible. Everyone stops fighting to stare. The barmaid, shocked, covers up and walks over to the rogue and slaps him, figuring he must have done it. She then marches upstairs.
The fight stops and everyone laughs at the rogue. The rogue shrugs and follows the barmaid upstairs and turns to the crowd and gives a thumbs up sign. The crowd laughs and the fight is over.
AND you will notice I kept my little narrative on thread as there was grappling involved :)
Which brings up a problem with grappling... just how do you grapple more than one opponent at a time?
My group actually had a little confusion with new grapple rules because they were so less complicated than what we were used to.
"Do I have to make a touch attack?"
"Not anymore."
"Well do I have to roll for this?"
"Not anymore."
"What about that?"
"Not anymore."
Etc.
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I ran into trouble against a creature with improved grab. Escaping a grapple is a standard action, so if I successfully escaped, I couldn't attack. I could just stand there, getting attacked, improved grabbed, and grappled next round. I could move, provoking an attack of opportunity, get improved grabbed and grappled. I could five foot step and hope he doesn't five foot step the next round, attack, improved grab, and grapple.
Basically it feels like making grapple a standard action is where it causes trouble. As a swift action the grappler could attack its target on its turn, and the grapplee could escape and attack or withdraw or cast.
We had a similar situation with grappling a small foe in our recent game. In truth, grapple is starting to become attack of choice for the party, especially where the enemies are spellcasters.
There is a handy feat in "Sword and fist" called "close quarter fighting". It lets you take an attack of opportunity against even a grappled with improved grapple and resulting damage is added to your grapple resiting roll. It needs improved unarmed first, but it is a handy feat to bring into play where grappling is something you want to avoid.
One thing that concerns me with grappling is that we are running into the 4th edition territory of solo monsters and daze/ stun. Basically, it is a handy way to lock down a foe so that the party can get the beat down on it, again especially where that foe is a caster and needs gesture for its spells.
Pathfinder is turning into Wrestlemania I think.
One thing that concerns me with grappling is that we are running into the 4th edition territory of solo monsters and daze/ stun. Basically, it is a handy way to lock down a foe so that the party can get the beat down on it, again especially where that foe is a caster and needs gesture for its spells.
The answer is that a caster should never let a warrior type grapple him. This isn't a problem, it's a feature in my eyes. If you cast spells and let someone get their grubby paws on you then it's your bad.
A good caster is going to be invisible, mirror imaged, flying, or teleported/ DDoored out, or something similar well before he's in too much trouble though.
Krome: How are you playing grapple? I had some confusion over the phrase "Attack Roll", I thought it meant you rolled your attack like you do with a weapon. Jason said that in that context he just meant a D20. So your CMB roll is BAB+STR+Size Bonus.
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What was the creature's DEX? A PRPG version of that creature might have 'agile maneuvers' so that his CMB is calculated with DEX not STR.
No idea about the DEX but I would imagine fairly high, but even at +4 Dex modifier, the -2 for size would have meant a CMB of +5, so DC 20, more difficult yes, but still doable.
I believe the foe also has Shield of Faith cast on him, providing a Deflection bonus. That bonus would have made the touch attack harder in 3.5, but as it is not stated that it adds to CMB it meant it didn't affect the grapple.
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One thing that concerns me with grappling is that we are running into the 4th edition territory of solo monsters and daze/ stun. Basically, it is a handy way to lock down a foe so that the party can get the beat down on it, again especially where that foe is a caster and needs gesture for its spells.The answer is that a caster should never let a warrior type grapple him. This isn't a problem, it's a feature in my eyes. If you cast spells and let someone get their grubby paws on you then it's your bad.
A good caster is going to be invisible, mirror imaged, flying, or teleported/ DDoored out, or something similar well before he's in too much trouble though.
Krome: How are you playing grapple? I had some confusion over the phrase "Attack Roll", I thought it meant you rolled your attack like you do with a weapon. Jason said that in that context he just meant a D20. So your CMB roll is BAB+STR+Size Bonus.
We use that. I know that is what was meant for the CMB, but the way they have it written you make an Attack roll and add CMB so it is d20+BAB+BAB+STR+STT and the size bonus neutralizes itself. We use BAB+STR+Size Bonus. So the ease of grapple depends upon whcih you use... as intended or as written. Unless the gaming group has someone who follows these boards a lot of people are going to use the Attack Roll+CMB method.
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I ran into trouble against a creature with improved grab. Escaping a grapple is a standard action, so if I successfully escaped, I couldn't attack. I could just stand there, getting attacked, improved grabbed, and grappled next round. I could move, provoking an attack of opportunity, get improved grabbed and grappled. I could five foot step and hope he doesn't five foot step the next round, attack, improved grab, and grapple.
Basically it feels like making grapple a standard action is where it causes trouble. As a swift action the grappler could attack its target on its turn, and the grapplee could escape and attack or withdraw or cast.
But you did have the choice to Withdraw, which would have not provoked an AoO. It makes sense to me that someone who is trying to get out of the grapple is using a Standard action. He can Withdraw to get away, or risk another grapple attempt.
There are several other manuevers that should become more popular as well. Overrun looks like a good choice now. Disarm is going to be used more often as well. I really like that maneuvers will (hopefully) become more popular. It means more options during combat. A Fighter doesn't just have to stand there and have a slugfest.
Picture this instead- A Fighter charges into melee landing a smashing blow against the Orc. The Orc retaliates with a slash then realizing he is outmatched in a sword fight takes his second attack and starts a grapple. The Fighter then escapes the grapple and withdraws to reasses the situation. The Orc tries overrun against the Fighter who is knocked prone and the Orc continues away to prepare for a charge. The Fighter uses a move to get up and decides turn about is fair play and uses an overrun against the Orc who is knocked prone. The Orc decides this is not going so well and decides to charge and try and finish it all off. The fighter takes the blow and retaliates with a Disarm, then slashes the Orc again and ends with a grapple and chokes the Orc unconscious.
Or you can have a combat with the Orc and Fighter standing toe to toe and trade slashes.
I think the maneuvers will make combat a LOT more fun.
I just ran into a potential problem with Grapples under Pathfinder rules (well it went in my favour as a player, but in general could be a problem).
Our party was up against a tiny character who was very quick and with plenty of magic to make his AC even higher. We were all struggling to hit it.
And then I tried to grapple it. As far as I am aware, the Pathfinder RPG removes the need to make a touch attack first, you just go straight to a CMB test. Well although the creature was very quick, he wasn't that strong (Str Mod of +0 I guess), therefore his CMB score worked out to be only +1 (BAB of +3, Strength +0 and Size mod of -2).
Meanwhile I had a CMB of +6 (normally +4 but I has Enlarge Person cast on me to make me Large and give me extra Str).
It was a simple matter to grapple the foe even though I shoudl have been struggling to hit it.
It would seem that Grapple could turn out to be the default method to attack a small sized creature as it side steps their Touch AC. I can see Improved Grapple becoming a very much desired feat.
How would Escape Artist have affected the situation? Having that skill seems it would even the odds somewhat against a high level fighter.
How would Escape Artist have affected the situation? Having that skill seems it would even the odds somewhat against a high level fighter.
Escape Artist would help him escape, but it wouldn't keep him from being grappled in the first place.
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But you did have the choice to Withdraw, which would have not provoked an AoO. It makes sense to me that someone who is trying to get out of the grapple is using a Standard action. He can Withdraw to get away, or risk another grapple attempt.I ran into trouble against a creature with improved grab. Escaping a grapple is a standard action, so if I successfully escaped, I couldn't attack. I could just stand there, getting attacked, improved grabbed, and grappled next round. I could move, provoking an attack of opportunity, get improved grabbed and grappled. I could five foot step and hope he doesn't five foot step the next round, attack, improved grab, and grapple.
Basically it feels like making grapple a standard action is where it causes trouble. As a swift action the grappler could attack its target on its turn, and the grapplee could escape and attack or withdraw or cast.
Unless I'm mistake, Withdraw is a full round action, which could not have been done the same round I used a standard action to escape the grapple.
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Unless Paizo changed Withdraw it can be used as a Standard Action to move your normal movement rate, or as a Full Round to move double your movement.
However, since you had already used your Standard Action to get free of the grapple, you still could not use the Withdraw.
Ok, there does seem to be a problem with that.
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I believe the foe also has Shield of Faith cast on him, providing a Deflection bonus. That bonus would have made the touch attack harder in 3.5, but as it is not stated that it adds to CMB it meant it didn't affect the grapple.
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I realy like CMB but not knowing what bonuses apply or not is a bit unconfortable to me. I usualy say yes more than no but a deflection? I guess it could make sense, I'd give it to oppose or resist CMs but is it balanced? Would deflection become to good? Dex doesn't apply by default but kind of does against grapple threw Escape Artist that can be used untrained, etc.
As for a creature grappling multiple opponents, I remember that improved-grab allows to "keep grappling without being grappled at -20"
witch would work for the giant-squid grabbing a handfull of low-level sailors but not necessarily doing the same to higher level PCs.
Unless Paizo changed Withdraw it can be used as a Standard Action to move your normal movement rate, or as a Full Round to move double your movement.
However, since you had already used your Standard Action to get free of the grapple, you still could not use the Withdraw.
Ok, there does seem to be a problem with that.
Especially since overall, grappling seems very much in the favor of the grappler, I'd say that it might be fair to say that should the grapplee manage to break free of the grapple, he should be able to move away from the grappler at standard speed without provoking an AOO from the grappler. (He might still provoke an AOO from other nearby enemies, but not the grappler--if he's just had his grip broken, he's not in a position to immediately lash back out.)
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Definitely agreed the grapplee (I like that word just fun to say) needs to be able to move away from the grappler. If the graplee cannot do that without provoking an AoO grappling will become the attack of choice and can unbalance a lot of situations. It becomes an unescapable pit of combat.
Yep must be fixed.
As far as modifers, as of now I do not see that deflection bonuses apply to CMB. It seems a very static number to me. If they allow deflection and other bonuses to apply then the target for CMB should become 10+CMB+Bonuses. Having that static 15 really does make it a challenge (one that can be overcome but still it is not guarenteed).
Right now I rule it flat out 15+CMB no modifiers.
Besides in a way the CMB takes most non magical needs into effect. For example, Dex does not need to be in the CMB formula. The reason is that CMB uses the BAB, which accounts for the defenders skill in combat. Dex is just straight up wiggling around like a screaming school girl. If I am seriously attacking the screaming school girl, her dex isn't going to matter much at all. If however, she had martial arts training and wanted to avoid me, she would be usung her combat skills rather than raw Dex.
We use that. I know that is what was meant for the CMB, but the way they have it written you make an Attack roll and add CMB so it is d20+BAB+BAB+STR+STT and the size bonus neutralizes itself. We use BAB+STR+Size Bonus. So the ease of grapple depends upon whcih you use... as intended or as written. Unless the gaming group has someone who follows these boards a lot of people are going to use the Attack Roll+CMB method.
I was a little fuzzy on that also. I use the version Jason spelled out here on the boards. We need to make sure when we hit that combat chapter that gets cleared up before it goes hardback.
Besides in a way the CMB takes most non magical needs into effect. For example, Dex does not need to be in the CMB formula. The reason is that CMB uses the BAB, which accounts for the defenders skill in combat. Dex is just straight up wiggling around like a screaming school girl. If I am seriously attacking the screaming school girl, her dex isn't going to matter much at all. If however, she had martial arts training and wanted to avoid me, she would be usung her combat skills rather than raw Dex.
I think keeping the "Agile Maneuvers" feat, which allows you to swap Dex for Str in the CMB equation, is the best option for people who want Dex involved. Untrained girly school girl is going to be at a disadvantage if manhandled by a brutish half-orc, but She Who Is the Waif Fu Master will know how to use her small size and flexibility against her meat-handed opponent.
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Besides in a way the CMB takes most non magical needs into effect. For example, Dex does not need to be in the CMB formula. The reason is that CMB uses the BAB, which accounts for the defenders skill in combat. Dex is just straight up wiggling around like a screaming school girl. If I am seriously attacking the screaming school girl, her dex isn't going to matter much at all. If however, she had martial arts training and wanted to avoid me, she would be usung her combat skills rather than raw Dex.I think keeping the "Agile Maneuvers" feat, which allows you to swap Dex for Str in the CMB equation, is the best option for people who want Dex involved. Untrained girly school girl is going to be at a disadvantage if manhandled by a brutish half-orc, but She Who Is the Waif Fu Master will know how to use her small size and flexibility against her meat-handed opponent.
Yes exactly... but face it it is much more fun and humorous watching screaming school girls run around lol maybe louder though. lol
And believe me... when that combat section comes due for comment I will be ALL over CMB. It has potential to be the best thing that has happened to D&D combat so I just can't stand it to be messed up.
Definitely agreed the grapplee (I like that word just fun to say) needs to be able to move away from the grappler. If the graplee cannot do that without provoking an AoO grappling will become the attack of choice and can unbalance a lot of situations. It becomes an unescapable pit of combat.
Have you ever wrestled someone stronger than you? I mean significantly stronger, that knows how to wrasssle? Once they get ahold of you it's hard to escape.
Spellcasters should have a hell of a time getting out of a grapple.
That does mean is that DMs and many players will have to change their tactics. Almost any creature with an DEX more than 4-6 higher than their strength should probably get agile maneuvers. Casters are going to have to be even more vigilant about avoiding scrapping in melee. Still Spell Dimension Door is going to be a much more popular spell. Mirror Image also gains some value. Improved Invis is... Improved :)
Yes it will be tough to escape a grapple... I don't see that as horrible, I see it as a little more accurate.
Especially since overall, grappling seems very much in the favor of the grappler[..]
I would correct that to say "grappling seems very much in the favor of the one who's better at grappling", which is probably (but not necessarily) the grappler.
One other thing... this significantly devalues AC buffing spells. Martial/ fighter types are probably more likely to grapple the casters than outright attack them.
It might be a good idea to change a few of the spells to boost CMB in addition to AC. Not many mind you but one or two. Protection From XXX/ Magic Circle seem to be good candidates for helping CMB. Shield and Mage Armor probably not.
Definitely agreed the grapplee (I like that word just fun to say) needs to be able to move away from the grappler. If the graplee cannot do that without provoking an AoO grappling will become the attack of choice and can unbalance a lot of situations. It becomes an unescapable pit of combat.
Yep must be fixed.
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If you look at the very basics of a PC-class humanoid (medium or small) grappling another humanoid, the grappler probably doesn't threaten the surounding squares since he's probably without a weapon so no AoO from the grappler to the grapplee (I like that one to) moving away.
Obviously, Improved unnarmed combat, natural weapons and maybe even armor-spikes change all that, so to be reconsidered indeed...
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Definitely agreed the grapplee (I like that word just fun to say) needs to be able to move away from the grappler. If the graplee cannot do that without provoking an AoO grappling will become the attack of choice and can unbalance a lot of situations. It becomes an unescapable pit of combat.Have you ever wrestled someone stronger than you? I mean significantly stronger, that knows how to wrasssle? Once they get ahold of you it's hard to escape.
Spellcasters should have a hell of a time getting out of a grapple.
That does mean is that DMs and many players will have to change their tactics. Almost any creature with an DEX more than 4-6 higher than their strength should probably get agile maneuvers. Casters are going to have to be even more vigilant about avoiding scrapping in melee. Still Spell Dimension Door is going to be a much more popular spell. Mirror Image also gains some value. Improved Invis is... Improved :)
Yes it will be tough to escape a grapple... I don't see that as horrible, I see it as a little more accurate.
Used to wrestle in college and there were two poor guys that could never beat me. But there was another guy in a light weight class that was so damn wiggly I couldn't keep a hold of him... I swear he greased up before we practiced... he and I wresteled for fun... my moves were about power and holds and his was about being a slippery eel and holds. BTW don't take much strength to put some pain on an elbow.
Now we weren't in the wrestling club... not good enough, but we wrestled anyway.
If you look at the very basics of a PC-class humanoid (medium or small) grappling another humanoid, the grappler probably doesn't threaten the surounding squares since he's probably without a weapon so no AoO from the grappler to the grapplee (I like that one to) moving away.
Obviously, Improved unnarmed combat, natural weapons and maybe even armor-spikes change all that, so to be reconsidered indeed...
Hmmm... suddenly a dip in Monk becomes even more attractive. Or just take Imp Unarmed Strike. The level of Monk gets you a big boost in your saving throws though. :(
Used to wrestle in college and there were two poor guys that could never beat me. But there was another guy in a light weight class that was so damn wiggly I couldn't keep a hold of him... I swear he greased up before we practiced... he and I wresteled for fun... my moves were about power and holds and his was about being a slippery eel and holds. BTW don't take much strength to put some pain on an elbow.
Now we weren't in the wrestling club... not good enough, but we wrestled anyway.
Ahhh, so you can appreciate agile maneuvers and the fact that it's really freakin' tough to get out of a hold unless you have some wrasslin' skills.
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If you look at the very basics of a PC-class humanoid (medium or small) grappling another humanoid, the grappler probably doesn't threaten the surounding squares since he's probably without a weapon so no AoO from the grappler to the grapplee (I like that one to) moving away.
Obviously, Improved unnarmed combat, natural weapons and maybe even armor-spikes change all that, so to be reconsidered indeed...
Hmmm... suddenly a dip in Monk becomes even more attractive. Or just take Imp Unarmed Strike. The level of Monk gets you a big boost in your saving throws though. :(
Ahhh, so you can appreciate agile maneuvers and the fact that it's really freakin' tough to get out of a hold unless you have some wrasslin' skills.Used to wrestle in college and there were two poor guys that could never beat me. But there was another guy in a light weight class that was so damn wiggly I couldn't keep a hold of him... I swear he greased up before we practiced... he and I wresteled for fun... my moves were about power and holds and his was about being a slippery eel and holds. BTW don't take much strength to put some pain on an elbow.
Now we weren't in the wrestling club... not good enough, but we wrestled anyway.
Dude did you change your avatar?
Yeah I really just wanted to get a hammer and nails and nail that sucker to the mat. There was once where I thought I had him. I had my knees on his shoulders pushing down and was leaning back on him so he couldn't wiggle. He managed to toss me forward and I landed on my back and he was on me and I kept the momentum going and flipped him and landed back where we started. But we were a good 3 feet OFF the mat then. It was fun though.
I can definitely see an Agile Whatever feat letting you switch Dex for Str.
So, how to deal with the movement issue though?
Dude did you change your avatar?
Yeah looks a bit more Ogre-ish doesn't it?
So, how to deal with the movement issue though?
I'm not entirely certain it's needed, as has been pointed out, it's a non-issue unless the the attacker has Improved Unarmed Strike.
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Definitely agreed the grapplee (I like that word just fun to say) needs to be able to move away from the grappler. If the graplee cannot do that without provoking an AoO grappling will become the attack of choice and can unbalance a lot of situations. It becomes an unescapable pit of combat.
Yep must be fixed.
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If you look at the very basics of a PC-class humanoid (medium or small) grappling another humanoid, the grappler probably doesn't threaten the surounding squares since he's probably without a weapon so no AoO from the grappler to the grapplee (I like that one to) moving away.
Obviously, Improved unnarmed combat, natural weapons and maybe even armor-spikes change all that, so to be reconsidered indeed...
OHHHHH good point!
But you can grapple with a light weapon, right? So a dagger could still be used to threaten. And a critter with reach, like the kraken, example would still threaten?
So many darn rules, and let's face it I never bothered with all the rules for grappling before since it was a nightmare.
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eh I think the grapple rules are fine as written (beta version).
As far as the AAO goes...its only an unarmed strike guys, not the most damaging attack in the game.
It could just be my opinion, because I am the only player that I know of "personally" who has ever actually taken Improved Grapple, heck most of the folks I know don't bother with Improved Unarmed Strike, preferring feats such as power attack, cleave, mobility, spring attack etc.
Basically they tend to find a "feat chain" and pursue it to the ends of the earth and Improved Grapple tends to be ignored.
But can't you use an unarmed attack to initiate another grapple? I am not sure here, because I never messed with grappling much before. And if I remember right you can grapple with a light weapon, like a dagger and still threaten. And I think reach threatens as well.
So, if the grappler does have a dagger, or reach he can initiate another grapple as you try to get away. Sure it can be realisitic but it can be a pain also.
Now I am not sure of those rules so please correct me. I expect to be doing some major grappling this next week.
Dude did you change your avatar?Yeah looks a bit more Ogre-ish doesn't it?
So, how to deal with the movement issue though?I'm not entirely certain it's needed, as has been pointed out, it's a non-issue unless the the attacker has Improved Unarmed Strike.
But what about lions, tigers and bears, oh my!? They're not that high CR but they can spell disaster foe equal level PCs.
For bards, wizards and sorcerer wrestling, check out Grease, only first level and multi-use!
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But can't you use an unarmed attack to initiate another grapple? I am not sure here, because I never messed with grappling much before. And if I remember right you can grapple with a light weapon, like a dagger and still threaten. And I think reach threatens as well.So, if the grappler does have a dagger, or reach he can initiate another grapple as you try to get away. Sure it can be realisitic but it can be a pain also.
Now I am not sure of those rules so please correct me. I expect to be doing some major grappling this next week.
At this point in Beta a grapple is a standard action not an single attack (like trip, disarm and sunder) so no grapple as an AoO but you could trip the ex-grapplee.
Also if you don't have 2 free hands you take a -4 penalty (so far no difference between someone grappling with a axe and a shield and someone with only a dagger, should be seen in the futur me thinks) and if your grappled (grappler or grapplee) you can't threaten anyone but the other grappler but if the grapple ends you threaten again.
That's what I've got figured out.
But what about lions, tigers and bears, oh my!? They're not that high CR but they can spell disaster foe equal level PCs.
Umm... don't you think it should be exceedingly difficult for a person to escape from the grapple of a lion? Even if you are able to get away from them (double move) they can easily catch you the next round. This is how it should be, lions are big nasty animals that should be really nasty in a grapple. Wrestling a bear? That's kind of a known oops.
Shouldn't Lions and Tigers and Bears be really awesome at grappling? Seems to me they should.
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OK from what I can piece together...
The fighter is being grappled by an orc. The fighter breaks free of the grapple. If the orc has no weapons prepared he no longer threatens the fighter's space and can move away.
If the orc has a light weapon it was using in the grapple (such as a dagger with a -4 attack) it can threaten the fighter's space. However, it cannot initiate another grapple on the fighter- though Trip and Disarm MIGHT be possible (I am not sure that any manuever is possible though as they all require at least a standard action to use- not just a single strike).
The only way the orc can threaten the space around him while unarmed is if he has Improved Unarmed Strike.
Reach doesn't matter in regards to threatening unless it has a weapon or a feat to do so.
So in essence, in most situations movement away from a grapple is no big deal.
So obviously I was making more complicated than it is. Good. I like simple.
Now I wonder how a bunch of grappling goblins will do against the PCs? Need to read up on multiple grapplers now. :)
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But what about lions, tigers and bears, oh my!? They're not that high CR but they can spell disaster foe equal level PCs.Umm... don't you think it should be exceedingly difficult for a person to escape from the grapple of a lion? Even if you are able to get away from them (double move) they can easily catch you the next round. This is how it should be, lions are big nasty animals that should be really nasty in a grapple. Wrestling a bear? That's kind of a known oops.
Shouldn't Lions and Tigers and Bears be really awesome at grappling? Seems to me they should.
Oh my!
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Shouldn't Lions and Tigers and Bears be really awesome at grappling? Seems to me they should.
Damn! I got ambushed by the post-eating-monster! Here we go again:
I agree these should be great grapplers but that might have to translate into a CR bump for these creatures.
You also came back on the AC bonus issue. I think some could also apply to the CM diff. (Deflection, Dodge, Luck, Divine) and some not (shield, armor, natural armor). Also some attack bonus could apply to CM rolls (Moral, Luck, Divine).
My reasoning is that they would have affected the touch attack (or resisted the attack) needed to perform the manoeuvers in 3.5 so they should still count. I know not all manoeuvers in 3.5 needed a touch but it would be difficult to handle different applications of bonuses for different type of manoeuvers in PF.
OK from what I can piece together...
The fighter is being grappled by an orc. The fighter breaks free of the grapple. If the orc has no weapons prepared he no longer threatens the fighter's space and can move away.
If the orc has a light weapon it was using in the grapple (such as a dagger with a -4 attack) it can threaten the fighter's space. However, it cannot initiate another grapple on the fighter- though Trip and Disarm MIGHT be possible (I am not sure that any manuever is possible though as they all require at least a standard action to use- not just a single strike).
The only way the orc can threaten the space around him while unarmed is if he has Improved Unarmed Strike.
Reach doesn't matter in regards to threatening unless it has a weapon or a feat to do so.
So in essence, in most situations movement away from a grapple is no big deal.
So obviously I was making more complicated than it is. Good. I like simple.
Now I wonder how a bunch of grappling goblins will do against the PCs? Need to read up on multiple grapplers now. :)
That's how I see it to. Just make sure you apply the -4 from the weapon to the CM rolls to.
As for AoO maneuvers look at Note 6 on table 9.2 p.135 of Beta (I feel like I'm quoting scripture! Maybe I am!):
Some combat maneuvers substitute for a melee attack, not
an action. As melee attacks, they can be used once in an
attack or charge action, one or more times in a full-attack
action, or even as an attack of opportunity. Others are used
as a separate action.
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Shouldn't Lions and Tigers and Bears be really awesome at grappling? Seems to me they should.Damn! I got ambushed by the post-eating-monster! Here we go again:
I agree these should be great grapplers but that might have to translate into a CR bump for these creatures.
Could be. On the other hand were they really that challenging for their CR to begin with? The post monster is of course CR 20.
You also came back on the AC bonus issue. I think some could also apply to the CM diff. (Deflection, Dodge, Luck, Divine) and some not (shield, armor, natural armor). Also some attack bonus could apply to CM rolls (Moral, Luck, Divine).
I'm split on other things affecting CMB. If spells with a dodge bonus affect CMB should 'Dodge'? The whole idea behind CMB is it's inherent simplicity. When you start saying "These bonuses are for the your offensive CMB and these for your defensive CMB..." it really mucks things up. I think I would prefer either some spells give an explicit bonus to CMB.
One thing that might be interesting is lowering the duration of Bulls Strength/ Bears Endurance/ Cat's Grace and having them give bonus feats. Cat's grace would give Agile Maneuvers, etc.
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I'm split on other things affecting CMB. If spells with a dodge bonus affect CMB should 'Dodge'? The whole idea behind CMB is it's inherent simplicity. When you start saying "These bonuses are for the your offensive CMB and these for your defensive CMB..." it really mucks things up. I think I would prefer either some spells give an explicit bonus to CMB.One thing that might be interesting is lowering the duration of Bulls Strength/ Bears Endurance/ Cat's Grace and having them give bonus feats. Cat's grace would give Agile Maneuvers, etc.
I am not a BIG fan of other things affecting CMB, just for the simplicity of it. However, should anything else affect CMB, then the static modifier really has to drop from +15 to +10.
I'm not a big fan of decreasing duration for Bull's Strength et al, but rather for increasing them and others like them back to hour/level. I think this is one thing that will aid in making higher level play better.
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I am not a BIG fan of other things affecting CMB, just for the simplicity of it. However, should anything else affect CMB, then the static modifier really has to drop from +15 to +10.I'm not a big fan of decreasing duration for Bull's Strength et al, but rather for increasing them and others like them back to hour/level. I think this is one thing that will aid in making higher level play better.
Effects affecting the CMB should stand on their own (Squid Grip, Racoon Paw, Slam of the Pecker, whatever).
Also, we already have the defensive combat training feat that splits between CMB (bonus) and CMD (difficulty). I'd prefer to have both on the character/monster sheet but I would yield to simplicity.
I am not a BIG fan of other things affecting CMB, just for the simplicity of it. However, should anything else affect CMB, then the static modifier really has to drop from +15 to +10.
More or less how I feel.
I'm not a big fan of decreasing duration for Bull's Strength et al, but rather for increasing them and others like them back to hour/level. I think this is one thing that will aid in making higher level play better.
Hmm... Well this makes an interesting debate. I like the idea of spells being either all day buffs or for rounds/ level (no casting 5 buff spells then busting open the door, limited buff then teleport). The idea of adding the feat was just an oddball idea I had rolling around. I would suggest it only if the duration were decreased though.
1 hour/ level... seems overmuch to me. Makes for a party running around with all day buffs, particularly at middle levels when hours/ day is all day but the belts are still expensive. Also makes for an all day +2 on casters spell DCs if they don't have a stat boosting item.
The other thing I don't like about hours casting is a hack. You can use extend spell to boost a spell to triple or quadrupal duration. At 10th level you can easily boost all your stat boosters to 40 hours by burning a 5th level spell slot... meh, we'll cross that road when we get to that chapter :)
Effects affecting the CMB should stand on their own (Squid Grip, Racoon Paw, Slam of the Pecker, whatever).
Umm... What!?!?
Also, we already have the defensive combat training feat that splits between CMB (bonus) and CMD (difficulty). I'd prefer to have both on the character/monster sheet but I would yield to simplicity.
Well now, if there is to be a split in the rules then I would like to put one, just one existing bonus onto Combat Maneuver Defense and that would be Dodge. Then some spells could boost 'CMD' specifically such as Prot from Evil.