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I was just thinking about this a few days ago... Paizo is planning to switch all of their APs, modules, chronicles books, and companion books over to PRPG when the final rules release in August 2009. BUT, since the core book won't contain monsters, wouldn't that mean that until a "core" monster book is released, the other books will have to contain full statistics for every monster so that players who don't have the 3E/v3.5 MM can still use the books? And would it need to continue like that until there is a real PRPG monster book? I'm just worried because statistics are statistics... what makes Paizo's stuff great is the fluff, and if there isn't as much room for that... eck.
Just a thought.
I'm pretty sure they are planning to cover all the monsters in the MM, however there are only so many hours in the day (and editors locked in the Paizo dungeon) to make that happen. They've got a big workload as it is. Give them time...
Dont worry about a thing,
cause every little thing gonna be all right.
Singin: dont worry about a thing,
cause every little thing gonna be all right!
Well I was going to say that the solution is to use the 3.5MM. Then Sean came along and now who knows... ???
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I was just thinking about this a few days ago... Paizo is planning to switch all of their APs, modules, chronicles books, and companion books over to PRPG when the final rules release in August 2009. BUT, since the core book won't contain monsters, wouldn't that mean that until a "core" monster book is released, the other books will have to contain full statistics for every monster so that players who don't have the 3E/v3.5 MM can still use the books? And would it need to continue like that until there is a real PRPG monster book? I'm just worried because statistics are statistics... what makes Paizo's stuff great is the fluff, and if there isn't as much room for that... eck.
Just a thought.
I just can't imagine why they would need to include stats for every monster. The vast majority of players and GMs out there already have monster books. There is the d20srd.org site for the core critters. Books are available on Amazon, and eBay, and in stores.
I would expect the Pathfinder Critters to Rock your Game book to follow soon after Pathfinder RPG is released. It won't be necessary for a new monster book immediately, regardless of how nice that would be.
I would expect critter stats to change and there to be a bit more flavor text about the critters, but not too much flavor text.
The new fluff stuff should be saved for themed books like Classic Monsters Revisited.
Part of the point of Pathfinder the RPG is to keep 3.5 d20 on the shelves so players won't think it's dead and need to resort to increasingly arcane methods of procuring hardcopy rules for a supposedly still ongoing game system. (Ebay, used bins, PDF and SRD printouts; it's going to get harder as time goes by.)
If that's going to happen, the monsters need to stay in print too. Otherwise, we're stuck telling prospective new Pathfinder game-masters; "Yup, all the info you need to run a game is in this book, along with character creation for your players... except for monsters. Go to the hypertext d20 site for them. And they could use some converting to PFRPG rules."
Not that I'm saying "Where's the darn monster book?! It needs to be here now!" Just... pointing out that sooner or later, we're going to need the monsters for a complete system update.
EDIT: I'm also not saying it /has/ to be there in August 09, though that would be cool. But it should exist in some form shortly after the rules go gold, so to speak, in my humble opinion.
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Dont worry about a thing,
cause every little thing gonna be all right.
Singin: dont worry about a thing,
cause every little thing gonna be all right!
Rise up this mornin,
Smiled with the risin sun,Three little birds
Pitch by my doorstep
Singin sweet songs
Of melodies pure and true,
Sayin, (this is my message to you-ou-ou:)
...couldn't resist
I would point out that "some" lag is OK and understandable, (though as pointed out, asking "new" players to find an out-of-print book is kinda lame), but at the very least, SOME creatures NEED to be statted out in the Core Book, for core Class Features, Spells & purchasable Animals to be functional:
I am more interested in an Original Pathfinder Monster compendium than an update to beta 3.x.
I prefer to have new monsters in my table developed by Paizo. For the MM monsters, I can do the conversion.
I'm really looking foward for something like a PMM. Keep ii up Paizo!
Thanks Erik :-)
Though I hope the monster book is done in conjunction with everything else. Otherwise you get mismatched stuff, which is exactly the same as 3.5 MM + PF other two books.
I concur! Thanks Erick!
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Not that I'm saying "Where's the darn monster book?! It needs to be here now!" Just... pointing out that sooner or later, we're going to need the monsters for a complete system update.EDIT: I'm also not saying it /has/ to be there in August 09, though that would be cool. But it should exist in some form shortly after the rules go gold, so to speak, in my humble opinion.
James has said that there will be a pathfinder monster book, and it will include more or less all of the monsters from the SRD. But because pathfinder is made so backwards compatible from 3.5 you can run them with the 3.5 stats perfectly fine (I'm doing it with CotCT right now)
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Yeah I'm voting no on a monster manual myself. I saw plenty of WOTC ones still available at stores, hell my local gaming store had far and away more 3.5 than 4th ed. (yes that's expected since 4th ed is still an infant).
Ah, and I wanted to mention that my FLGS had an entire shelf devoted to Paizo products last time I was there. Same space they gave for 4th edition. Well, they also had a big ol cut-out from WOTC with the FR stuff on it...
Still though, I thought it was pretty neat. Palladium used to get at least two shelves full, now they're down to like 1/3 of a shelf. Just goes to show how things change I guess.
I would point out that "some" lag is OK and understandable, (though as pointed out, asking "new" players to find an out-of-print book is kinda lame), but at the very least, SOME creatures NEED to be statted out in the Core Book, for core Class Features, Spells & purchasable Animals to be functional:
Quoted for truth.
I hope this statement doesn't go unnoticed.
Creative Director
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My first AD&D book was the Monster Manual.
I bought modules and felt ripped off when there weren't new monsters.
The first part of Pathfinder I wanted to make sure was part of the package was the Bestiary.
Godzilla > Gone With the Wind
For all these reasons and more, I am committed to making sure the needs of all things monstrous are not forgotten. This includes the Pathfinder RPG.
Never fear. It will be glorious.
Never fear. It will be glorious.
Cooooool....
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Yeah I'm voting no on a monster manual myself. I saw plenty of WOTC ones still available at stores, hell my local gaming store had far and away more 3.5 than 4th ed. (yes that's expected since 4th ed is still an infant).
Ah, and I wanted to mention that my FLGS had an entire shelf devoted to Paizo products last time I was there. Same space they gave for 4th edition. Well, they also had a big ol cut-out from WOTC with the FR stuff on it...
Still though, I thought it was pretty neat. Palladium used to get at least two shelves full, now they're down to like 1/3 of a shelf. Just goes to show how things change I guess.
How many will be there this time next year? In two years? In four?
New players will need Monster Manuals, and just because the game is backwards compatible doesn't mean it shouldn't be able to stand on its own.
My first AD&D book was the Monster Manual.
Hey, Me too!
Never fear. It will be glorious.
Consider my breath baited.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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I loved the old 2e Monstrous Compendiums in the binder (I have them all except Greyhawk and the Kara-Tur/OA one). The black and white images on the pull out pages were brilliant for me and I have added pencil colour to fully a 1/3 of my monsters.
That being said, I also liked the full colour ones they released, especially the Planescape ones.
As an aside: full colour books are awesome, but if a company is gonna print a book in B&W then for god's sake don't print it on glossy stock!!! WW were awesome for this and I have a very large chunk of my old WoD books (especially Werewolf - Ron Spencer I'm looking at you) hand coloured. It pisses me off when I see lovely B&W artwork just begging for me to touch it up and I can't 'cause it's on stupid glossy paper.
EDIT: And if I can be a pain is it possible for rules concerning using Races that are able to be used as PCs given said rules at the end of the entry? Sort of like what WotC did in the MM, but not so haphazardly (such as they have the stats for the Pixie, but not the Nixie and they are in the same entry - I much prefer the Nixie)?
We are going to be doing monster books as long as people buy them, which I hope means pretty much forever.
I refuse to buy you products! I refu..... ~facial expression changes~ Sorry about my other personality getting loose. He thinks that he is in charge of the wallet. Never fear, I am in charge of the wallet and our regular purchases will continue.
We are going to be doing monster books as long as people buy them, which I hope means pretty much forever.
Pathfinder Monsters subscription, here I come! It sound like the plans are well in place, but I'll cast my vote anyways to make an "SRD Monsters Revisited" the first priority--with a conversion to PFRPG and tweaks and adjustments as needed (such as Jason did with Charisma and Undead hps).
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Creative Director
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EDIT: And if I can be a pain is it possible for rules concerning using Races that are able to be used as PCs given said rules at the end of the entry? Sort of like what WotC did in the MM, but not so haphazardly (such as they have the stats for the Pixie, but not the Nixie and they are in the same entry - I much prefer the Nixie)?
This is one thing that I'm pretty sure we won't be including in the Pathfinder Monster Book. It's primary goal is to present monsters, not player options, after all. That's certainly not to say that we won't ever do a "playing monsters as characters" type product, or even that we won't include some advice for how to do so in the monster book's appendix, but given the fact that we'll be very tight on space as it is...
Basically, I'd rather do a "play monster PCs" product right than half-assed in a monster book.
update 3.5 MM to PRPG ...check
monsters of Golarion/Pathfinder ...check
play monsters as PCs ...check
Where do I preorder please?
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EDIT: And if I can be a pain is it possible for rules concerning using Races that are able to be used as PCs given said rules at the end of the entry? Sort of like what WotC did in the MM, but not so haphazardly (such as they have the stats for the Pixie, but not the Nixie and they are in the same entry - I much prefer the Nixie)?This is one thing that I'm pretty sure we won't be including in the Pathfinder Monster Book. It's primary goal is to present monsters, not player options, after all. That's certainly not to say that we won't ever do a "playing monsters as characters" type product, or even that we won't include some advice for how to do so in the monster book's appendix, but given the fact that we'll be very tight on space as it is...
Basically, I'd rather do a "play monster PCs" product right than half-assed in a monster book.
That's the way I would want it done. That way I don't get players looking in the Monster Manual for character options. While you're at it, could you put all the regular player needs in such "Players Option: Monsters" book, such as familiars and companions? I believe another poster mentioned something similar.
That way the DM only needs the PMM, and the player can have their POM.
Basically, I'd rather do a "play monster PCs" product right than half-assed in a monster book.
Awesome. I think that is a great attitude.
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Creative Director
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That's the way I would want it done. That way I don't get players looking in the Monster Manual for character options. While you're at it, could you put all the regular player needs in such "Players Option: Monsters" book, such as familiars and companions? I believe another poster mentioned something similar.
That way the DM only needs the PMM, and the player can have their POM.
That's a real good idea. But we won't be leaving player monsters like familiars and animal companions OUT of the core monster book, since a Player's Monster Book won't be out at the start and we need to have the badgers and the cats in there at the start.
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That's a real good idea. But we won't be leaving player monsters like familiars and animal companions OUT of the core monster book, since a Player's Monster Book won't be out at the start and we need to have the badgers and the cats in there at the start.That's the way I would want it done. That way I don't get players looking in the Monster Manual for character options. While you're at it, could you put all the regular player needs in such "Players Option: Monsters" book, such as familiars and companions? I believe another poster mentioned something similar.
That way the DM only needs the PMM, and the player can have their POM.
I would hope not! :) But seriously, one of the coolest things I ever saw in Dragon was the compiled Wild Shape charts. A Player's Monster Book could do just that for every class or ability.
Now, to get the core races back in the MM!
That's a real good idea. But we won't be leaving player monsters like familiars and animal companions OUT of the core monster book, since a Player's Monster Book won't be out at the start and we need to have the badgers and the cats in there at the start.
Yeah, we need those badgers in there so the BBE Gnomes can have some minions.
This is one thing that I'm pretty sure we won't be including in the Pathfinder Monster Book. It's primary goal is to present monsters, not player options, after all. That's certainly not to say that we won't ever do a "playing monsters as characters" type product, or even that we won't include some advice for how to do so in the monster book's appendix, but given the fact that we'll be very tight on space as it is...
The members of my gaming group are interested in seeing updated stat blocks for the various monsters that have turned into player races over time, but we're not really interested in a book that is dedicated to the construction of exotic monster PCs. Most of the "monster races" that we are thinking of are either a little bit stronger or a little bit weaker then the Pathfinder Core Races, and we would like to see them tweaked to bring them into better alignment with the standard races. We're mainly thinking of races like the Planetouched, Orcs, Goblins, Hobgoblins, and Kobolds. No Aboleth Sorcerers for us, thank you very much. :)
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My first AD&D book was the Monster Manual.
well, the monster manual WAS the first AD&D book printed (something about it being useable with OD&D was mentioned at the time, iirc...).
Never fear. It will be glorious.
of this i have no doubt. considering the quality of all that has come from paizo to date, i'd be disappointed were it merely spectacular ;)
New players will need Monster Manuals, and just because the game is backwards compatible doesn't mean it shouldn't be able to stand on its own.
Dontcha just love it when your post is eaten in a monster thread!?! The irony is wonderful.
Take Two.
This is very true. Monster manuals are the one thing I can still buy to use in my 2e game. The only thing that will keep me from buying the Pathfinder MM would be creature repetitiousness. Besides, how many of us already have 5 versions of the same core 100 creatures created for D&D? I know I do. Who needs a 6th?
Not worded as well as Take One, but it'll have to do. Phooey.
Dontcha just love it when your post is eaten in a monster thread!?! The irony is wonderful.
It funny.
Me laugh.|
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For those interested, a new PRPG Bestiary will be a welcome addition to our bookcases I am sure, and using 3.5 monster books and other ogl monster books has been a breeze integrating to Pathfinder RPG. I play PRPG every Monday and use the following with little updating, or on-the-fly updating:
Denizens of Avadnu
Tome of Horrors
Tome of Horrors II
Tome of Horrors III
Fiend Folio
Sandstorm-Frostburn-Dungeonscape-Lords of Madness (thanks James!)-Fiendish Codex I&II(thanks Erik!) et.al (3.5 books)
MMI
MMII
MMIII
MMIV
MMV
I use Pathfinder Chronicles: Classic Monsters Revisited, Pathfinder Chronicles Bestiary installments, and Pathfinder Modules creature installments with regularity.
When you consider how easy it is to calculate a creature's CMB using their base attack, strength and size - you quickly come to appreciate Jason Buhlman's adherence to quality backward-compatibility.
Way to go, PAIZO - my bookshelf does not feel "invalidated", instead, I am enjoying using this wide variety of monsters, and PAIZO's new crisp take on classic monsters, all anew again.
So, do we "need" a monster manual in August '09? Well, I prefer to sing Bob Marley with SKR!!! I trust PAIZO will handle this amazingly well. Nobody does monsters like PAIZO designers, nobody. In addition to PAIZO's future monster book release, if you don't own them, buy the .pdf or get a used copy of these old books.
Happy monster-hunting, everyone!