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I'd like to hear from Markus Tay (since he's been banned elsewhere), and others on how the actual product turned out, now that it is available.
In the spirit of our discussions in this thread about R.E.M., tell me....was this "the end of the world as we know it?"
-Pax-
I have seen the new map. It's not my realms at all . One long time realms player asked me what the hell they do hit it with nukes?.... its still making me sad.
I'd like to hear from Markus Tay (since he's been banned elsewhere), and others on how the actual product turned out, now that it is available.
In the spirit of our discussions in this thread about R.E.M., tell me....was this "the end of the world as we know it?"
-Pax-
Yes, it is. This was the stake to the heart for the Realms. I've glanced though it and it doesn't have the "crunchiness" to it that the 3.0 guide had. The writing and the map are not done well. Realms 4.0 has a "rushed" feeling to it.
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They have come up with a subscription for dungeon and dragon magazine oh noes, They have come up with a subscription for internet services oh noes. This is not pnp rpg's. You are exagerating and confusing what is actually happening with what you feel like is happening. You know how I know its not like that, Cause I'm running the damn game and I'm not paying them no monthly fee to do it.
But some people see the writing on the wall, and the inevitable conclusion now that this step has been taken. Once something goes partially digital, it is hard to go back (unless, of course, that digital thing doesn't make any money). It isn't a stretch for some people to foresee the day when Hasbro decides it is cheaper to have everything online and not publish books at all.
Yes, you are right, those people are confusining what it with what might be, but their fears may be justified and they feel the need to dismiss or fight that change now rather than later.
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Reposted from the Product Discussion page - My review of FRCG:
I am very unimpressed with the new "clean" layout for 4th Edition. Lots of wasted space, big fonts, and white pages staring back at me. Not much "character" in my opinion.
I also can't get over treating major NPCs as monsters with "roles". Calling Szass Tam "artillery" (or maybe "controller", I can't remember) seems odd. A great deal of D&D NPCs used to be characters themselves, so all of a sudden now they change when they become NPCs. Also, the deities chapter is a little thin, providing info for only the Greater Deities in the form of a short paragraph write-up. Quickly decoding some information, such as portfolio, seems to be unavailable.
Finally, the book is thin. Given all the large font and blank page space, and wide margins, and page count (288), I would hazard to suggest that the book contains about 1/2 to 2/3 the amount of information of the 3.0 FRCS (320 pages) (and for the same price).
Also, the index was very sparse. Read into that what you will.
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Finally, the book is thin. Given all the large font and blank page space, and wide margins, and page count (288), I would hazard to suggest that the book contains about 1/2 to 2/3 the amount of information of the 3.0 FRCS (320 pages) (and for the same price).
Also, the index was very sparse. Read into that what you will.
That is really my only complaint, that the book is sparse. If you compare the font and layout to Dark Heresy or the Pathfinder Campaign Guide, WOTC seems to have skimped on the content. Sure, they're printing costs are more since they run larger print runs and print in the US, but they're WOTC, right? They should be able to put out something as grand as the 3.0 FRCS.
Then again, they are splitting the books..CS and PG.
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Then again, they are splitting the books..CS and PG.
In other words, you get the same amount of content (with various opinions on the quality of such content) for twice the price of the 3.0 FRCS, plus every player will probably be "expected" to buy the FRPG. Good business plan, bad idea for a casual purchaser to pick up.
""""""the prevailing current marketing thought is that it's acceptable to lose ten 40-year-old customers if you gain five teenaged ones."""""
Moar like loose ten 40 year old customers if you gain 20 teenaged ones,
the fringe benefits of those teenagers b@*#@ing less and buying more are just an added bonus really.
You really believe that the marketing departments are trying to lose money? No, they are trying to make it. Moral of the story old fuddy duddies who are comfortable with the stuff they have don't buy as much as you all seem to think you do.
Logos
While the marketing data may bear that out (though I suspect that applies to things other than RPGs), I think us old fuddy duddies know that the volume of material purchased in the 12-20 years comes nowhere near the volume of RPG material purchased in the 30+ years.
I've always been a steady buyer of RPG material. The amount of 3.5/d20/OGL material far, far exceeds the stuff I bought in the 15 years before.
the prevailing current marketing thought is that it's acceptable to lose ten 40-year-old customers if you gain five teenaged ones.
Normally I'd agree with you.
But I think conventional wisdom may be flawed here. Increasingly, I think D&D is getting priced out of reach of many teenagers. It'll be interesting to see how everything plays out.
I've always been a steady buyer of RPG material. The amount of 3.5/d20/OGL material far, far exceeds the stuff I bought in the 15 years before.
Case in point.
Adults, if they stay with the game, have a whole lot more discretionary cash to throw into an expensive hobby (and D&D is most certainly becoming one of those).
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the prevailing current marketing thought is that it's acceptable to lose ten 40-year-old customers if you gain five teenaged ones.Normally I'd agree with you.
But I think conventional wisdom may be flawed here. Increasingly, I think D&D is getting priced out of reach of many teenagers. It'll be interesting to see how everything plays out.
I would also wonder about what sort of marketing plan they have. D&D traditionally has been passed on largely by word of mouth - people start playing because they meet other people who play, and introduce them to the game. That's been my experience, at least. Given the '4E backlash' among many of the preexisting customer base, especially in terms of FR, it seems to me that they've at least weakened, if not undermined, this route.
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I would also wonder about what sort of marketing plan they have. D&D traditionally has been passed on largely by word of mouth - people start playing because they meet other people who play, and introduce them to the game. That's been my experience, at least. Given the '4E backlash' among many of the preexisting customer base, especially in terms of FR, it seems to me that they've at least weakened, if not undermined, this route.
First off, I agree with Tat's previous post.
I get the impression they are relying on the internet and their DDI freebies to get people interested in the game. Otherwise, organized play, convention booths, and word of mouth are all in effect as usual (or soon, at least).
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I'd like to hear... how the actual product turned out, now that it is available.
In the spirit of our discussions in this thread about R.E.M., tell me....was this "the end of the world as we know it?"
-Pax-
If you link over, he does also share some more positives. I realize, for many, discussing this mess of the realms might feel like visting a grave of a buried loved one. If that's how you feel, well, that's how I feel too.
My answer to this is to party like its 1373 D.R. !!!
But maybe, we should obey the unwritten directive to just let it go.... maybe the desire is to just allow owners of IP wipe away the entire history, legacy, and fan-culture of the forgotten realms whenever driven by corportate bottom line to make changes to create revenue. ?! I mean... is that just the way of the world now? And does the Forgotten Realms, one of the most amazingly coherent, chronicled game worlds just get tossed into the mash-up heap? Has anyone just continued the timeline as though the Spellplaguey-thingy never happened? Should communities of fans just accept that owners of IP are entitled to muck-up continuity, coherency, and thumb noses at the views of consumers?
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Well, it'd be nice if fans could do something, but really, they can do nothing except vote with their wallet. Which is pretty irrelevant in this case, given that WoTC are only going to publish two books for the Realms.
Yes, the owners of the IP can do whatever they want with it, but they can't take the older edition products away from us (except on PDF. >.>)
Well, it'd be nice if fans could do something, but really, they can do nothing except vote with their wallet. Which is pretty irrelevant in this case, given that WoTC are only going to publish two books for the Realms.
They do release other stuff.
I haven't bought any wizards stuff since it became apparent what they did to the Realms. I haven't bought any rulebooks, any novels, any minis, any anything.
Of course, my general dissatisfaction with, well, everything they did and produced, played a part in that, too. But I might have picked up the occasional booster or single mini or stuff like that, and might have continued buying novels.
But I don't. That's hundreds of Euros they lose every year.
But maybe, we should obey the unwritten directive to just let it go.... maybe the desire is to just allow owners of IP wipe away the entire history, legacy, and fan-culture of the forgotten realms whenever driven by corportate bottom line to make changes to create revenue. ?! I mean... is that just the way of the world now? And does the Forgotten Realms, one of the most amazingly coherent, chronicled game worlds just get tossed into the mash-up heap? [...] Should communities of fans just accept that owners of IP are entitled to muck-up continuity, coherency, and thumb noses at the views of consumers?
The answer is Yes.
That is part of their rights are "owners of the intellectual property." They own it, it is theirs to do with as they will.
You are the consumer, and it is your right to choose not to consume their product. You have the right to complain to WoTC about what they have done. You also have the right to urge others to "choose not to consume their product."
But, other than that ... it is time to move on. :(
I've renamed the thread title. I don't think we want "rape and murder" on the front page of paizo.com.Thank you Gary.
To the OP, I choose to vote with my dollar, buy Pathfinder instead of 4E.
Indeed the best thing we can do it vote with our money. Send your displeasure loud and clearly, do not buy their products until they produce ones worth buying. Right now they have little to offer, 4e is not D&D, and their new FR isn't the FR. They seem to excel at missing the target. Good thing they don't make axes or the only thing safe in the forest would be the trees.
I hear Golarion is a nice place to visit...
I know it's not the same thing, but in the spirit of the argument, you can choose to not spend your money to support the one thing AND spend your money to support something else.
I have. I pre-ordered the pathfinder books. Bought a handful of mini's recently too. I always bought the first two RotRL adventures. Excellent so far, I also bought some dice, it's an addiction I can't help myself.
I stopped reading the novels long ago. Too many Realm Shaking Events, too few authors able to write a story that can stand on its own.
I haven't used all of the 3E Realms, I didn't kill off Azoun IV for example. My Relams have been running for over 15 years by now, not about to give that up for some cheap hacked 4E stupidity with the logo pasted on, but no other connection to the Realms.
I hear Golarion is a nice place to visit...
I know it's not the same thing, but in the spirit of the argument, you can choose to not spend your money to support the one thing AND spend your money to support something else.
You think you're so special with your frame and your super title, do you?
:P
Well, a lot of the money I used to spend on wizards now goes to the Golem. Which makes sense. Everybody knows that a wizard is powerless against a Golem!
Well, a lot of the money I used to spend on wizards now goes to the Golem. Which makes sense. Everybody knows that a wizard is powerless against a Golem!
This made me LOL. :P
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My entire gaming group has passed their will save, and thus disbelieved in the WotC-induced illusion that is 4e, and the "new" realms they created with it. I am going to run Pathfinder, and we have enough adventure paths and REAL (aka 3.5) FR-based material to last a veritable lifetime.
I don't read the fiction, so I can't be bothered with what RA Salvatore does, nor do I care about any future productions from WotC. We're quite fine in our disbelieving cocoon, thank you very much. :)
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My entire gaming group has passed their will save, and thus disbelieved in the WotC-induced illusion that is 4e, and the "new" realms they created with it. I am going to run Pathfinder, and we have enough adventure paths and REAL (aka 3.5) FR-based material to last a veritable lifetime.
So Say We All.
3.5 Never Dies!
You know, there's nothing bad about the new Realms. I consider it to be an alternate Toril. What I'd like to do is convert the 4E Realms to Pathfinder, keep some of the changes and abolish others (goodbye Abeir & Mystra, keep the Faerûn map the same from the 3E Realms) and use BOXM only for the spell system (1st - 30th level spells).
It would be a welcome change in my opnion. I'm of the opinion that there was supplement overkill, taking out more of the mystery of the Realms with 2nd Edition. Such a change (Pathfinderizing the ruleset & BOXMing spells) is necessary imo to put some of the fun back into the Realms.
Well, a lot of the money I used to spend on wizards now goes to the Golem. Which makes sense. Everybody knows that a wizard is powerless against a Golem!
Rust Ray for the win! :lol:
All in the golem, rust ray works on very few :)
Rust only works on metal. It doesn't affect an Awesome Golem.
You know, there's nothing bad about the new Realms.
You know, I disagree ;-P
It would be a welcome change in my opnion. I'm of the opinion that there was supplement overkill, taking out more of the mystery of the Realms with 2nd Edition.
I liked that. And now it's gone, with nothing of the sort taking its place. Others could have just used a world that suited them better.
But instead, the only setting that suited our tastes (great detail) was destroyed to pander to people who aren't even fans.
The nice thing would have been to abandon the Realms and make a new world that fits the new dogma. That way, someone else might have picked up the Realms and continued giving fans what they want.
The nice thing would have been to abandon the Realms and make a new world that fits the new dogma. That way, someone else might have picked up the Realms and continued giving fans what they want.
But then they would have had to establish a whole new IP. In the current market that is not especially easy to do.
From a marketing standpoint, it makes more sense to use an IP that already has name recogntion and traction in the marketplace.
The nice thing would have been to abandon the Realms and make a new world that fits the new dogma. That way, someone else might have picked up the Realms and continued giving fans what they want.But then they would have had to establish a whole new IP. In the current market that is not especially easy to do.
From a marketing standpoint, it makes more sense to use an IP that already has name recogntion and traction in the marketplace.
Well it would have been nice if they had used the setting and not just names from the setting
Well it would have been nice if they had used the setting and not just names from the settingThe nice thing would have been to abandon the Realms and make a new world that fits the new dogma. That way, someone else might have picked up the Realms and continued giving fans what they want.But then they would have had to establish a whole new IP. In the current market that is not especially easy to do.
From a marketing standpoint, it makes more sense to use an IP that already has name recogntion and traction in the marketplace.
Those names and personas are part of the setting though.
then ya know they could have used the setting. Not make a new one with the names like they did
If they had used the setting many realms fans would have been fine
then ya know they could have used the setting. Not make a new one with the names like they did
If they had used the setting many realms fans would have been fine
I know it.
It would have also demonstrated that 4th Edition was sufficiently versatile to handle different settings and playing styles. Right now it looks (justifiably or not) like it really only works for a "points of light" type setting.
Meh. I suppose they'll never get their paws on the Scarred Lands setting, so that's safe at least.
Amen to that, brother! Scarred Lands was my introduction to 3rd ed. Our DM actually had some of his material published into a Scarred Lands book, so it was a neat starting point for the edition.
Amen to that, brother! Scarred Lands was my introduction to 3rd ed. Our DM actually had some of his material published into a Scarred Lands book, so it was a neat starting point for the edition.
Meh. I suppose they'll never get their paws on the Scarred Lands setting, so that's safe at least.
You might not like the news, but I was under the impression the Scarred Lands IP was now owned by Fat Dragon Games, who are signers of the GSL. I think they already put out a Scarred Lands monster book or something for 4E?
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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You might not like the news, but I was under the impression the Scarred Lands IP was now owned by Fat Dragon Games, who are signers of the GSL. I think they already put out a Scarred Lands monster book or something for 4E?Amen to that, brother! Scarred Lands was my introduction to 3rd ed. Our DM actually had some of his material published into a Scarred Lands book, so it was a neat starting point for the edition.
Meh. I suppose they'll never get their paws on the Scarred Lands setting, so that's safe at least.
Fiery Dragon games (laugh) and I think they have a license from WW to make 4e products for Scarred Lands.
I enjoyed Scarred Lands for the 'Greek Mythology gone <i>horribly</i> wrong' vibe I got from it.
You might not like the news, but I was under the impression the Scarred Lands IP was now owned by Fat Dragon Games, who are signers of the GSL. I think they already put out a Scarred Lands monster book or something for 4E?Amen to that, brother! Scarred Lands was my introduction to 3rd ed. Our DM actually had some of his material published into a Scarred Lands book, so it was a neat starting point for the edition.
Meh. I suppose they'll never get their paws on the Scarred Lands setting, so that's safe at least.
NO!!!!!! I killed Padme?
Well as much as that does suck, my gaming group has the entire collection of Scarred Lands 3.5 books, so if we get back to that campaign we're good for a minute...
I wonder if they updated my buddy's contribution to the setting? He made a magic item that wound up in Relics and Rituals.
It would have also demonstrated that 4th Edition was sufficiently versatile to handle different settings and playing styles. Right now it looks (justifiably or not) like it really only works for a "points of light" type setting.
And that's the weirdest thing about it. It's one thing to turn the game into WoW offline. But change the setting to be "points of light"? Or keep saying that "points of light" is now a central part of the game? How does that add up? Daily powers don't work unless you take your life into your own hands if you move out of one of the few hamlets in the world? Dragonborn need monsters everywhere?
It's not even hard to make the game open like that. I'm not saying here that wizards is stupid. I say they had to go out of their way to make it like this.
You might not like the news, but I was under the impression the Scarred Lands IP was now owned by Fat Dragon Games, who are signers of the GSL. I think they already put out a Scarred Lands monster book or something for 4E?Amen to that, brother! Scarred Lands was my introduction to 3rd ed. Our DM actually had some of his material published into a Scarred Lands book, so it was a neat starting point for the edition.
Meh. I suppose they'll never get their paws on the Scarred Lands setting, so that's safe at least.
Fiery Dragon games (laugh) and I think they have a license from WW to make 4e products for Scarred Lands.
I enjoyed Scarred Lands for the 'Greek Mythology gone <i>horribly</i> wrong' vibe I got from it.
Oops! ::blush::
Sorry, must have had my dragon adjectives starting with F mixed up there. Thanks for the correction!
And yeah, Scarred Lands definitely had a pretty cool mythos going on. I have a few of their first books too.
Anyhoo, probably enough OT stuff from me ...
So Halaster is now a Runelord? :)
Hell yeah.
I am starting to like this setting hummmmm
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Does anyone else own the IP of forgotten realms? Could it ever in theory branch off and continue the standard timeline as it was without the Spellplague-thingy?
Even if there were some shread of IP still maintained by Greenwood, could he ever join forces with Mona as the Saviors of the Realms?
I am also considering running another Forgotten Realms game next year. And I so very much wish there were a way for a publisher to continue the Realms without all that destruction ever happening. At least from a publishers, or game module point of view.
Who's idea was the destruction of the forgotten realms, anyway?
The ISP is fully owned by Wotc. And killing the realms was someones dumb ideal as people hated it. It does not matter they prob lost more sales then they gained.
Well, I'm actually betting it sold pretty well. It was the first setting available for 4E, was tailored to fit the baseline assumptions of 4E, and is the setting for the organized play for WOTC, as well as having its debut at Gen Con last year.
The problem being that the above makes it hard to discern if the sales would have been the same without the contributing factors. I may be wrong, but I've heard a lot of people that wanted a setting to start playing 4E with but have been saying, from the get go, "I can't wait for Eberron to come out," which seems to imply that FR was good "to start," but its not going to be their long term setting of choice.
Effectively WOTC owns Forgotten Realms lock, stock, and Phaerimm, but Ed Greenwood's original contract with TSR back in the day stated that if a year went by without any Forgotten Realms product being produced, the rights would go back to Ed. Now, this was the original agreement, and I have no idea how the shift to WOTC would change things, or how WOTC being aquired by Hasbro changes things . . . but at one point in time this was the agreement.
On the other hand, that would also mean that Ed gets back his version of the Realms, which is minus Drizzt Do'Urden, Arilyn Moonblade, Alias, etc. that were created for the setting since his initial sale of the property. That would upset some people to varying degrees.
The ISP is fully owned by Wotc. And killing the realms was someones dumb ideal as people hated it. It does not matter they prob lost more sales then they gained.
At Gen Con last year, Rich Baker and Phil Athans mentioned coming up with the first outline of what would become the post Spellplague Realms, but it seems that there was still a lot of details in flux at this point in time.
Also, and this is only my guess, but said outline seemed to be prompted by someone at WOTC perceiving that FR had "problems" that needed to be "fixed."
In fact, Phil Athans even said during the Realms seminar last year that he felt that the perceptions that the FR 4E team was combating were "unfair" but that they existed one way or the other and they decided to address them.
The ISP is fully owned by Wotc. And killing the realms was someones dumb ideal as people hated it. It does not matter they prob lost more sales then they gained.
IP - Intellectual Property.
ISP - Internet Service Provider.
Wizards aren't that powerful. :D
Does anyone else own the IP of forgotten realms? Could it ever in theory branch off and continue the standard timeline as it was without the Spellplague-thingy?
Even if there were some shread of IP still maintained by Greenwood, could he ever join forces with Mona as the Saviors of the Realms?
I am also considering running another Forgotten Realms game next year. And I so very much wish there were a way for a publisher to continue the Realms without all that destruction ever happening. At least from a publishers, or game module point of view.
Who's idea was the destruction of the forgotten realms, anyway?
FWIW, here's a link to the Dragon article explaining some of the thinking behind the changes to FR (from Dragon #366). Be warned though, despite the fact that I've never been a huge fan of FR I can predict that a lot of the comments made in that article will not please long term FR fans.
However, there are some comments about the amount of material that had been produced over the past 15 years or so that does lead me to ask you a question Pax. Given the large amount of 3.0/3.5 FR material already available, what further products (specific or general) would you like to see published presuming there was a way to disentangle the original IP from WotC?
I do think WotC have made a mistake by "abandoning" a lot of the realms history with the shift to 4E, but I honestly have no idea what extra material Realms fans need (or would like to have) for their 3.0/3.5 games. (Clarification: by this I mean "3.0/3.5 era" Realms games regardless of which actual system or edition you wish to play with)
Edit: added clarification to avoid getting caught up in system/edition distractions...
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The best explanation for the whole thing that I've read so far has been, 'They went and changed the Realms to make it a setting that would appeal to people who didn't like the Realms.'
It's like the owner of Pizza Hut waking up one day and saying, 'You know, I think we've done everything we could possibly do with pizza, and sold pizza to just about everyone who could possibly want pizza. We need to expand and revitablize our customer base. Let's stop making pizza and sell only sushi!'