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To clear things up a bit, I'm not saying the Realms are just plain bad. I'm saying that the way things have developed, I just have an aversion to them.
When I say I like Golarion, I guess what I mean is that I feel like I have more freedom. If there is established canon in a setting, I feel like it's important to hold true to things that have been established. And in the Realms, where so much has already been established, I like the feeling of that different world.
To be fair, Golarion is rapidly becoming too detailed for my tastes, but I'm still having fun with it so far.
Dragonchess, I for one am a huge tennis fan. Watching RF win against Roddick and stake his place in history was fantastic. Everyone should have watched that match. Glorious.Watching tennis level of boring.[threadjack]
So, how about that Wimbledon men's final, this year? (I couldn't resist... ;-) )
[/threadjack]
Not everyone is a tennis fan, but the "watching tennis... boring" commentary is irritating. Non-fans can say the same things about baseball, basketball, football (American and soccer), golf, NASCAR, etc.
If not for Federer's amazing record over the last six years (21 straight Grand Slam semi-final appearances and something like 16 or 17 out of the last 18 finals) and Nadal for the last two or three, I'd say Roddick would have won at least a few more Slam titles since the 2003 U.S. Open. Unfortunately for Roddick (and everyone else on the tour), they just happen to be playing at the same time as (one of) the greatest all-around players and the greatest clay-court (as well as one of the toughest and most physical) player ever.
Not everyone is a tennis fan, but the "watching tennis... boring" commentary is irritating. Non-fans can say the same things about baseball
Boooring!
basketball
Boooring!
football (American
Boooring!
soccer
Boooring!
golf
Boooring!
NASCAR
Boooring! (Unless someone is in flames)
etc.
Especially booooring.
:P
Did you know? Recent studies have shown that participating in sports by watching them while drinking alcohol and loudly commenting on the athletes' performance does not actually count as workout! ;-)
You know Scott, the topic is what they screwed up in the Realms, so saying they didn't have to do it, or that we can't stand what they did is discussing the topic. Now I'm sorry if saying anything negative about WoTC offends you, but their is no real "constructive" coversation to be had about this. I have no problems with 4e, it's not my game of choice, so take that for what it's worth.I don't know what your hoping to get here but I can promise that those of us who dislike what WoTC did to our favorite setting are not suddenly gonna get all warm and...
Amen!! If we can't gripe and insult each other around here over 4e...then there is always ENWorld!!!
enworld, has become very unfriendly to non 4e love fest.
And I agree his is our thread to b!!#+ and moan if we damned well want to...and we do..oh how we do
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enworld, has become very unfriendly to non 4e love fest.
And I agree his is our thread to b@!*& and moan if we damned well want to...and we do..oh how we do
Call me a rust monster who's been living under a rock, but I've never spent any time on EN world. And, while I don't wish to use this thread to keep posts on other happenings.... is what you're saying true... that those in this thread who feel betreyed by the wotci may feel unwelcome, or do I misunderstand? Just curious. Thanks.
Call me a rust monster who's been living under a rock, but I've never spent any time on EN world. And, while I don't wish to use this thread to keep posts on other happenings.... is what you're saying true... that those in this thread who feel betreyed by the wotci may feel unwelcome, or do I misunderstand? Just curious. Thanks.
YMMV but my perception is that it's more that a large proportion of posts there are related to 4E and the admins do seem to be very pro-active in not letting threads devolve into edition wars. The mods do seem somewhat even-handed to me, and I have read a few good 3.x related posts there, but it's probably not a good place to have a negatively focused rant.
Personally, I prefer the company found on these boards :D
Call me a rust monster who's been living under a rock, but I've never spent any time on EN world. And, while I don't wish to use this thread to keep posts on other happenings.... is what you're saying true... that those in this thread who feel betreyed by the wotci may feel unwelcome, or do I misunderstand? Just curious. Thanks.enworld, has become very unfriendly to non 4e love fest.
And I agree his is our thread to b@!*& and moan if we damned well want to...and we do..oh how we do
Those who visit ENWorld just to say how betrayed they feel by WotC will get slapped with a vacation from the forum hard and fast. Those who are there to discuss the game they enjoy will find it a very welcoming community. The staff there is very big on preferring that you enjoy your game of choice rather than hating on a game you don't like, regardless of what game that might be.
Call me a rust monster who's been living under a rock, but I've never spent any time on EN world. And, while I don't wish to use this thread to keep posts on other happenings.... is what you're saying true... that those in this thread who feel betreyed by the wotci may feel unwelcome, or do I misunderstand? Just curious. Thanks.
Well, they took my outrage over wizards' new direction, twisted my words to mean that I insulted the whole boards, and banned be because of that.
Nowadays, I call enworld "the other wizards boards"
No Enworld has got better, but it is still a heavy handed pro-4e forum. The Mods will delete even good on point posts if they think it may be anti-4e.
I have got more then a few deleted over thee that were on topic but not wotc love-fests
So yeah evening disliking the new realms is a big no over there
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Call me a rust monster who's been living under a rock, but I've never spent any time on EN world. And, while I don't wish to use this thread to keep posts on other happenings.... is what you're saying true... that those in this thread who feel betreyed by the wotci may feel unwelcome, or do I misunderstand? Just curious. Thanks.Well, they took my outrage over wizards' new direction, twisted my words to mean that I insulted the whole boards, and banned be because of that.
Nowadays, I call enworld "the other wizards boards"
What's their story? How were they founded? I thought ENnies and thingys were given from a neutral company, but now I learn there is a love fest with Hasbeen Of The Coast? Is there some reason they are pro? and not neutral or more open?
Edit: Wizards of the Coast
well it was eric noah's 3e preview site. I have been a lurker there since 2000. When we went to close up shop a few years back someone else took over the page. Was a good site.
But they have such a huge wotc hard on they clamped down hard on any negative wotc comment and drove many posters away with the heavy pro-4e moderating
I stayed gone for months, it is not as bad, but no longer has the right feel to the place anymore that is gone
To give an example of moderation being applied pro-actively to forestall any descent into edition wars, this thread got locked down recently.
For those who don't want to follow the link, I've spoilered the OP and the mods response below.
I've been looking for some reviews of the 4E Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide that are a bit more "even tempered". It seems most I've seen (On Amazon, frex) are gigantic rants by FR fanboys who hate all the changes about their pet NPCs , Gods, and regions.
I'm actually looking for a review that just talks about what the changes are, what exactly is in the book, how useful this book is to the DM starting a FR campaign etc.. You know, an actual REVIEW? Any links to "reasonable" threads here would be great too. I tuned out of most of the original ones that surfaced here on ENWorld because there were the same ranty issues.
I'm going to close this, Jeff. Please try it again without insulting half the folks here with completely loaded language. It's fine to want to read reviews that aren't weighted by personal issues, but I'm pretty sure you can ask for that without using language that is guaranteed to start a fight.
Given that the boards do seem to full of people who play 4E, I can see why you might avoid it if you're not interested in that edition, but there is some non-4E discussion that goes on there including the occasional Pathfinder thread (and it's nice to see Paizo staff often posting in those threads). As Scott said, the staff seem to prefer that people focus on the game they enjoy rather than "bash" the game they don't like, but I only recently started lurking there and have no idea what it was like when the edition wars were in full swing.
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It was pretty bad when the edition wars were hot and heavy. I saw one poster get suspended for several days for a realtively benign comment that wasn't positive about 4E. At that time, there was no point in posting if you weren't absolutely gushing over 4E and everything WotC. It was so bad that it was apparent the moderators were blatantly abusing their powers to stifle anything that wasn't pro-4E. I believe part of the reason was that WotC had a lot of advertisements on the site at the time. It seems pretty clear that they were pushing 4E for WotC's advertising dollars. I think it's gotten better since then, but I still don't frequent ENWorld or post there as much as I used to.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Could it have been done better?
What would have been the way to integrate points of light into the FR? (as opposed to making a new setting for this concept, which I agree would have been cleanest)
An excellent question. For my money, the issue isn't "points of light", but rather the new game mechanics. A "points of light" setting doesn't have to be vast; the setting is tied to the mystery of "what's out there". A "points of light" campaign could be set virtually anywhere, as long as there'd been a local catastrophe, and the setting is in an old war zone.
Pick an out of the way place, say, Chessenta. Traumatize it, and there's your points of light.
--+--+--
The larger issue is how to explain that magic works differently, classes have different abilities, elves have a different history, etc.
For that, I'm afraid you are indeed going to have to commit large-scale violence to the Realms. Even that could have been ameliorated, though, by including more information about how particular individuals fared, and how, say, Shandril's daughter influenced events.
As far an ENWorld goes, I'd take what's being said here with a few grains of salt. It's very easy to misconstrue responsible moderation that seeks to keep the forum clean of threads or posts that bait or insult as unfairly prejudicial, especially when you're on the receiving end of that moderation. The moderators' primary responsibility is to ensure that the forum operates in a way that is healthy for the community. Acting on that responsibility is not abuse of power.
Could it have been done better?
What would have been the way to integrate points of light into the FR? (as opposed to making a new setting for this concept, which I agree would have been cleanest)
An excellent question. For my money, the issue isn't "points of light", but rather the new game mechanics. A "points of light" setting doesn't have to be vast; the setting is tied to the mystery of "what's out there". A "points of light" campaign could be set virtually anywhere, as long as there'd been a local catastrophe, and the setting is in an old war zone.
Pick an out of the way place, say, Chessenta. Traumatize it, and there's your points of light.
--+--+--
The larger issue is how to explain that magic works differently, classes have different abilities, elves have a different history, etc.
For that, I'm afraid you are indeed going to have to commit large-scale violence to the Realms. Even that could have been ameliorated, though, by including more information about how particular individuals fared, and how, say, Shandril's daughter influenced events.
Having mystara combine the two weaves would have fixed the now magic works different issue. No need for any of the rest
Did you know? Recent studies have shown that participating in sports by watching them while drinking alcohol and loudly commenting on the athletes' performance does not actually count as workout! ;-)
X-D
I have more fun playing sports than watching it, but it's usually hard for me to find someone to play tennis against regularly. I usually have more luck with organized team sports like volleyball (the other sport I enjoy).
I know, not the typical selection.
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Could it have been done better?
What would have been the way to integrate points of light into the FR? (as opposed to making a new setting for this concept, which I agree would have been cleanest)
Not only what Chris said, but also the Idea of Points of Light is just that a Idea, it is not a set of rules or integral in how 4e works. 4e does not require that every setting has to be Points of light and IMO it would be irresponsible of WotC to make all thier settings fit that concept.
I see many people who post about WotC and them worrying about them ruining thier settings and they throw around 'Points of light'. Just because WotC did such major changes to FR to fit this concept does not mean they will do the same for the other settings.
What's their story? How were they founded? I thought ENnies and thingys were given from a neutral company, but now I learn there is a love fest with Hasbeen Of The Coast? Is there some reason they are pro? and not neutral or more open?
They used to have frequent funding problems with big donation begging campaigns.
Nowadays, I suspect they get wotc funding that comes with strings attached, i.e. "make this a 3e-unfriendly place and we give you money".
What would have been the way to integrate points of light into the FR?
In one word: Don't.
A setting should remain its own setting, without having changes forced upon it by new game mechanics, and especially not game fluff like "points of light".
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What's their story? How were they founded? I thought ENnies and thingys were given from a neutral company, but now I learn there is a love fest with Hasbeen Of The Coast? Is there some reason they are pro? and not neutral or more open?They used to have frequent funding problems with big donation begging campaigns.
Nowadays, I suspect they get wotc funding that comes with strings attached, i.e. "make this a 3e-unfriendly place and we give you money".
KaeYoss, that is just silly... Normally I see what you are saying.. but this is just silly.
I agree with Scott on this one. More likely they want people to talk about games they love and not games they hate, I am sure if you went there and did a hateful post about 3.5 you would get the same treatment as if you said hateful things about 4e.
It's very easy to misconstrue responsible moderation that seeks to keep the forum clean of threads or posts that bait or insult as unfairly prejudicial, especially when you're on the receiving end of that moderation.
It's also very easy to misconstrue prejudicial moderation for responsible moderation, especially if the board caters to your edition.
The moderators' primary responsibility is to ensure that the forum operates in a way that is healthy for the community. Acting on that responsibility is not abuse of power.
The moderators' primary intention was to shut up everyone who didn't love wotc and 4e with all their bodies, acting in a way that was healthy to the advertisement dollars.
KaeYoss, that is just silly... Normally I see what you are saying.. but this is just silly.I agree with Scott on this one. More likely they want people to talk about games they love and not games they hate, I am sure if you went there and did a hateful post about 3.5 you would get the same treatment as if you said hateful things about 4e.
There was not even a game to hate or love back then, only morsels of information. If you didn't like them, and said so, it could get you banned real quick.
As I said, it happened to me. They turned my words around in my mouth, claiming I insulted the whole community, and banned me for that.
Which was utter b!!!$+$&. I was defending the community.
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KaeYoss, that is just silly... Normally I see what you are saying.. but this is just silly.I agree with Scott on this one. More likely they want people to talk about games they love and not games they hate, I am sure if you went there and did a hateful post about 3.5 you would get the same treatment as if you said hateful things about 4e.
There was not even a game to hate or love back then, only morsels of information. If you didn't like them, and said so, it could get you banned real quick.
As I said, it happened to me. They turned my words around in my mouth, claiming I insulted the whole community, and banned me for that.
Which was utter b*%#@~!*. I was defending the community.
I Understand you got banned, but that does not mean it was because WotC had a hand in it...
Most likely they have an idea on what they want the feeling in there forums to be, and any argumentative post no matter the subject is moderated.. It just seems to you that is is all about 4e, because it is a popular subject, but If you went in there and put a argumentative post about anything I am almost certain you would have seen the same treatment.
They have a certain idea of what a argumentative post means that most likely does not fit your idea of an argumentative post. In fact I am sure me posting this on there forums would be moderated.
I Understand you got banned, but that does not mean it was because WotC had a hand in it...
I'm not saying wotc gave them a daily list of people to assassinate...
Most likely they have an idea on what they want the feeling in there forums to be, and any argumentative post no matter the subject is moderated..
The feeling they wanted in their forums changed at a very auspicious time, then: Suddenly, you were not allowed to be less than satisfied with a certain future edition any more.
And, again, for the record: I complained that wizards apparently thought we were all idiots, and they twisted the words, claimed I called everyone an idiot, and banned me for that. To me, that was an excuse to get rid of someone who didn't like their main ad client's shiny new product.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Could it have been done better?
What would have been the way to integrate points of light into the FR? (as opposed to making a new setting for this concept, which I agree would have been cleanest)
Not to toot my own horn but Here's one idea.
Kae, Scott, please lets not get into the bashing or defense of EnWorld, please. They can moderate however they please (as can Paizo).
I think enough has probably been said about ENworld at this stage. If it's not to your taste, don't go there.
Back to the original topic, as I've said previously I've never been a huge fan of the realms, but if I was to start using it as a setting for a 3.5/PFRPG campaign what advice would you have for me in terms of a good starting location and recommended reading?
I think enough has probably been said about ENworld at this stage. If it's not to your taste, don't go there.
Back to the original topic, as I've said previously I've never been a huge fan of the realms, but if I was to start using it as a setting for a 3.5/PFRPG campaign what advice would you have for me in terms of a good starting location and recommended reading?
I started back in 1st ed with Under Illefarn, I thought it was a great way to begin a long running campaigne. Rich full or things for your group to do and explore. Not sure it was republished for 3.X at any time but I don't think that matters it makes a great source book that allows you to have a colorful setting for any adventure you might wish to create for your players. I have no idea though how you might obtain a copy.
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I started back in 1st ed with Under Illefarn, I thought it was a great way to begin a long running campaigne. Rich full or things for your group to do and explore. Not sure it was republished for 3.X at any time but I don't think that matters it makes a great source book that allows you to have a colorful setting for any adventure you might wish to create for your players. I have no idea though how you might obtain a copy.I think enough has probably been said about ENworld at this stage. If it's not to your taste, don't go there.
Back to the original topic, as I've said previously I've never been a huge fan of the realms, but if I was to start using it as a setting for a 3.5/PFRPG campaign what advice would you have for me in terms of a good starting location and recommended reading?
Under Ilfarn was the best! Over the years several groups have started out there in Daggerford. Getting a copy may be hard though *cradles worn copy to his chest*, but if you can.... SO WORTH IT. It has everything that makes the Realms great. :)
They can moderate however they please (as can Paizo).
Of course. And if I have a gun, I can shoot however I please. Doesn't mean it's right or wrong, though :P. Ability is not the question here.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I think enough has probably been said about ENworld at this stage. If it's not to your taste, don't go there.
Back to the original topic, as I've said previously I've never been a huge fan of the realms, but if I was to start using it as a setting for a 3.5/PFRPG campaign what advice would you have for me in terms of a good starting location and recommended reading?
Depends on what you're looking for.
If you're looking for 'Urban' Cormyr, Waterdeep, Baldur's gate.
Rural Forrest, I recommend Deepingdale, not Shadowdale.
Reading Well since we can't get the Volo's guides, I recommend Candlekeep.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Of course. And if I have a gun, I can shoot however I please. Doesn't mean it's right or wrong, though :P. Ability is not the question here.They can moderate however they please (as can Paizo).
Flawed analogy.
To use a rights analogy, you have a right to say whatever you please, you don't have a right to use their bullhorn.
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As far an ENWorld goes, I'd take what's being said here with a few grains of salt. It's very easy to misconstrue responsible moderation that seeks to keep the forum clean of threads or posts that bait or insult as unfairly prejudicial, especially when you're on the receiving end of that moderation. The moderators' primary responsibility is to ensure that the forum operates in a way that is healthy for the community. Acting on that responsibility is not abuse of power.
Responsible moderation will lock and delete posts or suspend posters for particulary aggregious insults and violation of rules. A repeated partern of this could result in a ban. Abuse of moderator power is "Say the slightest negative thing about 4E, and you and your post are history." The latter is what I personally witnessed at ENWorld close to 4E's release.
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Could it have been done better?
What would have been the way to integrate points of light into the FR? (as opposed to making a new setting for this concept, which I agree would have been cleanest)
There are still a lot of grey areas on the World Map. So they could have used these areas to implement the new races and the PoL stting.
OrThey could have created a parallel timeline for an alternative FR.
This was done for the Setting of a german RPG (Midgard). In an "adventure path" the PCs accidently create a parallel prime plane where a cataclysmic war against a magocracy was lost instead of won as in the normal prime plane.
Both planes have different timelines since then.
I think the fact Scott likes the way they moderate tells any reader of these boards all they need to know about how trustworthy the moderating of ENworld boards is.
I think that sums up ENworld pretty good from my experience.
Anywho, I've been thinking about starting up a small PF FR campaign, and I honestly have little to no experience in the realms. I've read a couple novels about the Phaerim (sp) and the Weave and such, but just haven't absorbed the setting in yet. I bought FR and Dragonlance 3e campaign settings for dirt cheap and just havent decided between the 2 of them which one to run yet.
The relevance to this thread? Well, I've always been curious of the realms, but the groups I was in never went that direction. What actually drew me to the setting was the expansive wealth of information, and how rich and deep the setting was. I don't really care if some of the numbers didnt work in 3e, I just saw a canyon's worth of flavor text and source material to draw from. I looked at 4e's FR book and it's just a shame they threw all of that away. I can kinda see maybe sweeping out some of the old and giving players a chance to fill in the gaps, but this was just uncalled for. The actual edition ruleset is irrelevant here, what they did to the setting itself was just bad.
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I think enough has probably been said about ENworld at this stage. If it's not to your taste, don't go there.
Back to the original topic, as I've said previously I've never been a huge fan of the realms, but if I was to start using it as a setting for a 3.5/PFRPG campaign what advice would you have for me in terms of a good starting location and recommended reading?
Hands down - The Vast is the perfect haven for an adventuring home. Its a place where many adventurers have made their first mark in their early years, and its so loosely governed that it provides as much a points of light as anyone should need. *cough, cough* without feeling a maniacle compulsion to nuke the setting from space.
I ran a terribly popular campaign there from '06-08, and featured such lovely places as Kurth, Maskyr's Eye, the Monestery of the Yellow Rose, and Mulmaster.
Its a charming place with plenty of GM "whitespace" to do with as one pleases.
It might be fun to start creating some fan-created materials, if the scribes at Candlekeep are walking on eggshells right now. Perhaps what this movement needs is some support for the world without spellplague.
Let me know if you have any other interests in The Vast.
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I LOVE the idea of them bringing 'Points of Light' into Chessenta and amalgamating Shar and Mystra to warp the magic rules for 4e. A similar conceit could be used for the elf origins, heck just make the new race a hidden sub-species of elves from Evermeet.
That would work without all the apocalyptic nonsense they used in their setting.
And the dragonborn are an easy fix, especially given all the work they did over the last few years of 3.5 to bring Bahamut and Tiamat into the center of the Realms narrative. I never thought when they were used in 'Throne of Bloodstone' that the meta-design was going to have Tiamat restore herself in the Babylonian fashion in Chessenta. That region is perfect for all that they wanted to do with the 4e realms--Tieflings, Aasimar, dragonborn, apocalyptic breakdown of civilization. Excellent thinking.
And it would have left the rest of the Realms alone.
For the DMs and players who run their worlds there.
(As an aside, it is one of the reason my FR campaigns only ever visit Waterdeep and the North, the Dalelands, and Cormyr. I don't like having to hand-waive away all the official publications but I also don't want to have to be bound by whatever book-of-the-month came up with. Instead, I used Mulhorand, Damara, and Chult extensively; I suspect other DMs did the same so they can have a 'Big World' without having to either negate or memorize all of it.)
For richness of possibility, I think my favorite solution would have been the ancient past of Faerun, pre-Netheril, as a place for 4e's Forgotten Realms but the Chessenta concept really is elegant and economical with the canon and our world.
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Let me know if you have any other interests in The Vast.I love your map to the flooded forest...
Still would like to see your maps to that tri-evil temple... ;-)
Ah.... The flooded forest map and environs.... Sorry I never did follow through. But hey, this is one of the perks of long time friendship - thanks for the reminder.
I still have your email address. Give me just a bit of time to gather that stuff. I've got a homebrew map of the Vast (keeping canon but fleshing out environs) and a bunch of stuff.
Maybe that's a good direction to go in general. Maybe we should help GMs to learn how to run a successful campaign in the NON-NUCLE4R Forgotten Reams, prior to when it was nuked from space by irresponsible so-called designers at that Magic the Gathering company that no longer requires "knowledge of d&d" as part of a persons resume.
*sigh*
But really, I'll get that stuff to you... and the Temple of the Black Triad that I had set deep within the forest. I actually had it so that the temple was sunken into the forest, and recently raised up through powerful re-discovered epic spellcraft from the ancient netherese.
Ohhhhh.. Wait till I tell you the juicy campaign story that goes along with it......... Mmmmmnnnn delicious. But, at a minimum, I get that map to you.
Thanks again for the friendly reminder D.E.
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The Spellplague occurs in 1385 and ebbs and flows in strength across the Realms for decades. By 1479 (the year of 4th Edition), it's been relatively quiet for many years, but there's no guarantee you won't see a small Spellplague storm on your journeys.
Regarding the Mystra/Shar/Weave/Shadow Weave stuff, I still like Mystra passing away and splitting the magic portfolio between Selûne and Shar, since she was made from both of them.
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Yeesh, I totally forgot that they ruined Lathander too!
My favorite FR god, something that really made the setting unique, taken for no apparent good reason.
Consider: Amaunator had some life as a heresy and as a Netherese dead god.
Ed was very conscious in making the Realms free of a 'Sun God' proper. When he brought in Mulhorand he got rid of Ra on purpose to keep the Realms that way. This is a big deal for traditional mythologists as the Sun God is almost always a really big deal. By doing so, Ed makes the Realms its own animal, where the Goddess of Magic is much more likely to be the central god as opposed to the God of the Sun. It also made Chauntea much more central.
Assuming Lathander into Amaunator removed a unique and creative Morninglord with a Pelor/Cuthbert amalgam that offers much more judgment (and crowds out Tyr/Torm/Helm in the process) and much less 'springtime in the Realms' feeling.
Yes, the Spellplague wrought ugliness in a lot of perfectly pretty places.