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Given the large amount of 3.0/3.5 FR material already available, what further products (specific or general) would you like to see published presuming there was a way to disentangle the original IP from WotC?
Speaking as someone who has pretty much exclusively used the Realms since 1987, I would have to say that the vast majority of Realms products released were largely focused on the Inner Sea region...
Sure, they put out a sourcebook about here or there, but those locals NEVER got the attention to detail that Shadowdale or Waterdeep recieved...
It would have been nice to see some of the more interesting areas mentioned within the pages of (1e/2e) supplements like "The Shining South", or "Old Empires", or [insert name of your favorite sourcebook here] get a boxed set of their own...
Or, better yet, have updated material for Al-Qadim, Maztica, and Kara-Tur...
And, believe it or not, there are a few areas of the Realms left totally untouched by TSR or WotC (that may or may not have received an honorable mention in the pages of Dragon Magazine)...
-That One Digitalelf Fellow-
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I do think WotC have made a mistake by "abandoning" a lot of the realms history with the shift to 4E, but I honestly have no idea what extra material Realms fans need (or would like to have) for their 3.0/3.5 games.
I agree with your position. This was a gross mistake. This was a horrid, and deal-breaking mistake. Upon hearing it, now seemingly so very long ago, I could not help but wonder if perhaps there were some kind of shortage on imagination? Perhaps there was some kind of crisis that cause rather smart people to make such a destructive choice? And look at it - it is destruction... with a built-in forgiveness plan that plays as though a lot of inhabitants don't even talk about the spell plague any more - what rubbish.
And this is not vim and vitriol. This is obvious to anyone who has any shread of taste. The destruction of the realms was Wizards of the Coast's swansong. They will never recover, nor do they deserve to. When you spit in the face of the most coherent setting ever created, with some of the most prolific and respectful fans in the world, you don't deserve to survive. I think a lot more was destroyed in that Spellplague than just the realms - the last bit of soul that company had was lost, along with any respect or trust.
Again, look at it.
We play a game that tells stories, and over the years we carefully remember them, we play characters progressively, and write-in coherency and continuity into the stories we tell. And this community recognizes instantly when a good story falls victim to a crappy ending, a hollywood ending, or a cheap plot trick to make a sequel.
What happened to the realms is a dirty shame - and is not justified by saying they wanted to change it to make it appealing. It is they who should look in the mirror and see - that perhaps it only did not appeal to the IP owners. Its more than just a 100 year jump, its the butt-headed tieflings, and its the gnomemonsters, and its a failure to understand Gary's alignment system, and its a disgraceful money-grab, and sick marketing maneuver.
It feels like a kick to the gut. And, I wasn't nearly what you would call a big forgotten realms fan. But I do value the history of our game, and there is something sick about willingly "jumping the shark" with the Forgotten Realms.
As to your question, Miphon, .... well, it isn't that I want much, nor do I need much, but of all the incredible things one could have done with the Forgotten Realms, this choice was sick, sick, sick.
They could have re-released Maztica - newer, better, less cheezy, better or newer creatures, more defined territory.
They could have developed any part of rather than destroying the setting of that small area of the known realms.
They could have kept it as-is, and invited the community to design stuff that they liked.
They could have finished developing the whole world - if any world deserved that, or was headed that way, it was the realms.
Dammit anyhow - it makes my brain vomit in my skull just trying to imagine who could have thought this was a good idea...
I think a lot more was destroyed in that Spellplague than just the realms - the last bit of soul that company had was lost, along with any respect or trust.
And they keep screwing up. Until very recently, I thought I'd keep all channels open - maybe they'd change again someday.
But I gave that up. They can go to hell for all I care, they won't see another penny from me, ever.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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The best explanation for the whole thing that I've read so far has been, 'They went and changed the Realms to make it a setting that would appeal to people who didn't like the Realms.'
It's like the owner of Pizza Hut waking up one day and saying, 'You know, I think we've done everything we could possibly do with pizza, and sold pizza to just about everyone who could possibly want pizza. We need to expand and revitablize our customer base. Let's stop making pizza and sell only sushi!'
4gotten Realms. The new coke of D&D ;-)
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So Halaster is now a Runelord? :)No, he was a Runelord's apprentice. I haven't decided which one yet.
Perhaps Halaster betrayed one of them (fortunately it was Sloth, who couldn't get off his fat arse to do anything about it) to join another. He's the Runelord equivalent of a multi-disciplinarian, trying to create a massive ritual that requires the talents of all seven categories of Sin Magic!
Ooh, recasting Undermountain along the tone of Dante's Inferno, with each level representing a different 'flavor' of wickedness (and designed to tap into the power of the sin-themed creatures on that level, to empower 'the great working'), would be kinda nifty... Adventurers showing up might be tempted into the behaviors that fuel a particular level (wrath would be the easiest, but greed, etc. also have potential), and thus 'feed the fire.' Adventurers who manage to overcome the temptations, or otherwise 'gum up the works,' might receive a private visitation from a pissed-off wannabe Runegod.
I think a lot more was destroyed in that Spellplague than just the realms - the last bit of soul that company had was lost, along with any respect or trust.And they keep screwing up. Until very recently, I thought I'd keep all channels open - maybe they'd change again someday.
But I gave that up. They can go to hell for all I care, they won't see another penny from me, ever.
Do you mean the "PDF Fiasco"?
but I honestly have no idea what extra material Realms fans need (or would like to have) for their 3.0/3.5 games.
There were still some untouched regions that needed good detail (on the level of a regional supplement) including:
- Nimbral- Lantan
- Sossal
- a few portions of the South, such as Ulgarth and the Utter East
Also:
- a whole lot more adventures
- WAY more Maztica
- WAY more Kara-Tur
- some more areas around the Hordelands (Murghom and even Semphar could have used a bit more detail)
- continue the Volo's Guides to most of the other regions
- actually complete Undermountain
The other things I, personally, would be interested in would be pushing up against the concept of diminishing returns, and thus would likely sell very little (but I'd still happily buy), such as:
- Merchant Costers of the Realms (covering the trading costers, etc, and able to simulate "Merchant Prince" campaigns - traveling in caravans, going to far-off realms, beating the hell out of the competition, etc)
- Sailors/Pirates of the Realms
and niche stuff like that...
Has anyone just continued the timeline as though the Spellplaguey-thingy never happened?
Of course. AFAIC, that's the 'normal' way to play in the Realms.
Our campaign world is exclusively FR (and it's attached settings, like SJ, PS, AQ, KT). We adapt all of Paizo's APs to fit into the Realms.
I play 4E and I use the old FR. As far as I can tell though, WotC isn't going to be supporting the new Realms either. They're on a 1 campaign world a year schedule, with no support beyond a Player's Guide, Campaign Setting, and 1 adventure (maybe something in Dragon or Dungeon).
I'm not at all upset about the new Realms though, mostly because it didn't force me to change my campaign. It was simply new starting point for 4E and to get new players. It's not the Realms I want or use, but it's certainly not disrupting my life in any manner. I just keep on chugging with my old edition Realms fluff.
I know why WotC did it, but I don't know why they thought it would work for them. They shook up and overhauled campaign worlds before, and have gotten grief for it. Comic book worlds do it all the time, too. Not once in any of that has the general opinion been good.
I can see the marketing team saying Realms sales are low because new players feel intimidated by the vast amount of stuff for it. I can't see them telling design to blow it up because research has said that has worked in the past. Something like that must have been said at some point though.
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So Halaster is now a Runelord? :)No, he was a Runelord's apprentice. I haven't decided which one yet.Perhaps Halaster betrayed one of them (fortunately it was Sloth, who couldn't get off his fat arse to do anything about it) to join another. He's the Runelord equivalent of a multi-disciplinarian, trying to create a massive ritual that requires the talents of all seven categories of Sin Magic!
Ooh, recasting Undermountain along the tone of Dante's Inferno, with each level representing a different 'flavor' of wickedness (and designed to tap into the power of the sin-themed creatures on that level, to empower 'the great working'), would be kinda nifty... Adventurers showing up might be tempted into the behaviors that fuel a particular level (wrath would be the easiest, but greed, etc. also have potential), and thus 'feed the fire.' Adventurers who manage to overcome the temptations, or otherwise 'gum up the works,' might receive a private visitation from a pissed-off wannabe Runegod.
I love this idea. My players will hate you for it, but I'm going to steal it. Now I just have to work out the heirarchy and the types of creatures involved.
Do you mean the "PDF Fiasco"?I think a lot more was destroyed in that Spellplague than just the realms - the last bit of soul that company had was lost, along with any respect or trust.And they keep screwing up. Until very recently, I thought I'd keep all channels open - maybe they'd change again someday.
But I gave that up. They can go to hell for all I care, they won't see another penny from me, ever.
Not quite. That was one of the things I noticed while still paying attention. Of course, it backfired, since it only reinforced my stance that wizards shouldn't get any of my money.
But now I'm not even going to look at what they do. I just assume that they'll never again get to the point where I'm prepared to give them anything.
They could turn around completely. 5e could be the perfect RPG. I just don't care.
4gotten Realms. The new coke of D&D ;-)
Guffaw!
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So Halaster is now a Runelord? :)No, he was a Runelord's apprentice. I haven't decided which one yet.Perhaps Halaster betrayed one of them (fortunately it was Sloth, who couldn't get off his fat arse to do anything about it) to join another. He's the Runelord equivalent of a multi-disciplinarian, trying to create a massive ritual that requires the talents of all seven categories of Sin Magic!
Ooh, recasting Undermountain along the tone of Dante's Inferno, with each level representing a different 'flavor' of wickedness (and designed to tap into the power of the sin-themed creatures on that level, to empower 'the great working'), would be kinda nifty... Adventurers showing up might be tempted into the behaviors that fuel a particular level (wrath would be the easiest, but greed, etc. also have potential), and thus 'feed the fire.' Adventurers who manage to overcome the temptations, or otherwise 'gum up the works,' might receive a private visitation from a pissed-off wannabe Runegod.
Halaster did have Seven Apprentices so...
The Runelord of Sloth created the Runeforged(Warforged) to be his servants.
I can't see them telling design to blow it up because research has said that has worked in the past. Something like that must have been said at some point though.Rich Baker has compared the situation to Star Trek: The Next Generation and Marvel's Ultimate series. Of course those are passive-consumption properties, not RPG settings, which is consistent with the designers' discussion in terms of stories they want to tell.
Of course the Ultimates comparison really falls apart, considering that the original Marvel Universe is still supported along with the Ultimate Universe.
And for some reason the Realms 4E felt more like if they had made Star Trek: Next Generation, but instead of shooting ahead 70 years, they had shot ahead 70 years and partially merged the universe with the Star Wars Galaxy.
All the Realms maps...check, all the books...check. I'm good, I don't see why our happy little group needs to change a thing, and I don't have to spend any more money.
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All the Realms maps...check, all the books...check. I'm good, I don't see why our happy little group needs to change a thing, and I don't have to spend any more money.
You said it! As far as we're concerned (myself and 18 close friends... the spellplague-thingy never occurred).
Perhaps it was all just some kind of red WIZARDS dream....?
Lets rename forgotten realms,after the spellplague it's now
forgotten rifts.
Perhaps it was all just some kind of red WIZARDS dream....?
Those crazy wizards, always trying to destroy our world.
Double entendre acknowledged.
The thing that gets me is magic work...but the weave is gone?? Are we talking about a setting that has stated for for ages the weave is the mortal interface and as we have seen before when the weave stops working so does magic. It does not go wild it stops.
Not quite. That was one of the things I noticed while still paying attention. Of course, it backfired, since it only reinforced my stance that wizards shouldn't get any of my money.But now I'm not even going to look at what they do. I just assume that they'll never again get to the point where I'm prepared to give them anything.
oh good. does that mean that i wont have to read any more of your posts on 4e message boards? i have looked forward to this day for a very long time
Just checkin' in...your friendly neighborhood tank.
A twist to the official revolution of Toril that i consider for my future games would be for the world to lose all magic. I mean ALL magic.
No more goddess of magic = no more magic.
No spells for wizards, sorcerers, bards, clerics, druids, for anybody.
Not even for the gods, who can't grant spells anymore and can't either come on the world as avatars.
No magic items.
No spell-like abilities.
Nothing.
That wouldn't be a low magic setting, that would be a NO magic setting.
Iron Heroes Extreme.
Now that's interesting.
oh good. does that mean that i wont have to read any more of your posts on 4e message boards? i have looked forward to this day for a very long time
No, I'll still post just out of spite. ;-P
Cannot let the terrorists win and all that.
We adapt all of Paizo's APs to fit into the Realms.Really? I like to hear where you set the various adventures. (On a related note, I'm thinking of running an Age of Worms campaign either in the Forgotten Realms or Golarion. Your thoughts?).
Golarion, of course! :)
oh good. does that mean that i wont have to read any more of your posts on 4e message boards? i have looked forward to this day for a very long timeNo, I'll still post just out of spite. ;-P
Cannot let the terrorists win and all that.
wow....you must be an angry angry man. well, it probablly keeps you warm at night.
[big sigh]....oh well, i guess i will just have to keep trying to ignore you.
wow....you must be an angry angry man. well, it probablly keeps you warm at night.
Oh yes. And not just warm. HOT! If you'd cut my throat right now, you'd be killed by a 50 bar stream of boiling blood, right in the eye. Sometimes, I let out shouts of rage, and they cause tsunamis, hurricanes, and earthquakes.
Yes, every time you guys insult me, thousands die. All tragedy in the world could be stopped if you guys only realised the fundamental truth: I am always right, your disagreements mess with perfection, and you'll go to hell for it.
[big sigh]....oh well, i guess i will just have to keep trying to ignore you.
You only encourage me to try harder! What happened to the other plan you guys had: Insult and annoy me until I go away? Worked like a charm. But your reasonable approach angers me.
Did I mention I wrote that all with a big smile on my face? You don't know about anger. :D
Looks at avatar.
But, KY, even your smile is angry.
To be honest, the whole Spellplague things doesn't really bother me. I find it kinda interesting. To see what survived, what did not. Kind of like a "Forgotten Realms: Survivors Edition."
I can understand how die-hard fans of the Realms might be disappointed at the change, but sometimes changes is for the better. Okay so you don't like 4e. Why not try the Destroyed Realms with Pathfinder? Thats sounds fine by me. Fun, even.
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All the Realms maps...check, all the books...check. I'm good, I don't see why our happy little group needs to change a thing, and I don't have to spend any more money.
Indeed. WotC lost me as a customer as well, but I do have one regret - I'm fairly sure that Ed had some cool plans for how the Realms would evolve of his own, and now I'll never find out what they were due to NDAs and such. Sigh...
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To be honest, the whole Spellplague things doesn't really bother me. I find it kinda interesting. To see what survived, what did not. Kind of like a "Forgotten Realms: Survivors Edition."
I can understand how die-hard fans of the Realms might be disappointed at the change, but sometimes changes is for the better. Okay so you don't like 4e. Why not try the Destroyed Realms with Pathfinder? Thats sounds fine by me. Fun, even.
The Time of Troubles was Deus Ex enough. The 'Spellplague thing' doesn't even make a vague handwaving attempt to follow canon. When the words 'They don't sound like my gods' are uttered by the guy who created them, you can be sure that the plot has been well and truly lost. There isn't anything left of the Realms other than a brand name.
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Let's hope a month passes, or a year if that's what the contract reads, and the entire IP for the realms returns lock-stock-and-barrel, from what I've heard, back to Ed Greenwood.
Perhaps it was even this thread, where I heard 'ol Ed wrote that into his contract to ensure FR was a continuously supported system ad infinitum....
How's that for Deus Ex Machina?
Let's hope a month passes, or a year if that's what the contract reads, and the entire IP for the realms returns lock-stock-and-barrel, from what I've heard, back to Ed Greenwood.
Perhaps it was even this thread, where I heard 'ol Ed wrote that into his contract to ensure FR was a continuously supported system ad infinitum....
How's that for Deus Ex Machina?
I seriously doubt this will happen...
I don't think WotC will let this source of income escape their control.
Let's hope a month passes, or a year if that's what the contract reads, and the entire IP for the realms returns lock-stock-and-barrel, from what I've heard, back to Ed Greenwood.
Perhaps it was even this thread, where I heard 'ol Ed wrote that into his contract to ensure FR was a continuously supported system ad infinitum....
How's that for Deus Ex Machina?
I wouldn't count on that. I'm pretty sure the Realms were bought outright.
Surely with all these muckity-mucks in our midst, someone knows the facts about this.
Looks at avatar.
But, KY, even your smile is angry.
Angry? Nah. Sadistic, yes. Angry? Nah.
Okay so you don't like 4e. Why not try the Destroyed Realms with Pathfinder?
I don't even dislike 4e that much. I don't consider it a roleplaying game, and I won't waste money on it, but the game itself I don't care about one way or the other (just that they call it both D&D and RPG).
One of the main reasons wizards lost me as a customer is that they messed up my favourite setting.
I don't want to try the crappy 4gotten realms with the even crappier writing that would get the writer of a really bad soap opera fired (all the crap about Helm's death, and Mystra's death, and Cyric's lack of death), I prefer the good old Realms.
But that world is no longer supported, not in new sourcebooks, not with good novels. I really liked that part.
Let's hope a month passes, or a year if that's what the contract reads, and the entire IP for the realms returns lock-stock-and-barrel, from what I've heard, back to Ed Greenwood.
Perhaps it was even this thread, where I heard 'ol Ed wrote that into his contract to ensure FR was a continuously supported system ad infinitum....
How's that for Deus Ex Machina?
I heard that one, too. The problem is that, as far as I know, they keep publishing realms stuff - novels.
So other than getting a good circle going and sicking a good Entropy Curse on whoever tries to write or publish anything for a year so they're too scared (or dead) to keep the Realms from going back where they belong, there's not much to be hoped for.
Hm.... Does anyone have some spare time? And some black candles? And a nice blood sacrifice. I might have an idea ;-)
The Time of Troubles was Deus Ex enough. The 'Spellplague thing' doesn't even make a vague handwaving attempt to follow canon. When the words 'They don't sound like my gods' are uttered by the guy who created them, you can be sure that the plot has been well and truly lost. There isn't anything left of the Realms other than a brand name.To be honest, the whole Spellplague things doesn't really bother me. I find it kinda interesting. To see what survived, what did not. Kind of like a "Forgotten Realms: Survivors Edition."
I can understand how die-hard fans of the Realms might be disappointed at the change, but sometimes changes is for the better. Okay so you don't like 4e. Why not try the Destroyed Realms with Pathfinder? Thats sounds fine by me. Fun, even.
Yeah hat is what bugged me. I mean sure there were always a few RSE but not like wotc put out and then this spellplague does such bad things to setting canon just to even try and work its setting braking
Indeed. WotC lost me as a customer as well, but I do have one regret - I'm fairly sure that Ed had some cool plans for how the Realms would evolve of his own, and now I'll never find out what they were due to NDAs and such. Sigh...
Sorry, but if Mr. Greenwood had any plans for the Realms they'd be in the 4E version. He's listed as a designer.
Not really true, he tried to save what he could but he has let enough slip to say he is not happy with how things were done...And it is a paycheck
A designer is different from lead designer, story manager, brand manager, etc.
He's listed as "a designer" on the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting as well. He didn't control the direction of the overall project.