Now that 4th ed is out


4th Edition

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Ok, so now the new D&D 4th edition is out (yeah, many have already grabbed a copy somewhere.. even if it's your friend at the bookstore... :p .. or from what I've heard, some BUY.com..), I've taken a (very short) time to read [look] through it, and I must say: "Ok, let's focus on Pathfinder. Let's make this thing rock Jason, please!".

They've annihilated the game; it's worse than I thought. The flavor I thought was awesome though, the concepts, arts, the setting and the mood, to that I take my hat off; they've given the game some good ambiance.. but it's unplayable by anyone who desires a minimum of character development other than the 'little power thingy' you choose every level. It looks like Diablo: Choose a pre-made character and pick your powers as you level up. I say "Pre-Made" character because "the Wizard is the Wizard, there's not much to change or personalize, you wear a robe, wield a staff and fire bolts.. and in all games you play, everyone who plays it will play the same thing, the small difference is in your "spells" (which have been eliminated from the game entirely, everything is a power now and follows the same rule as a fighter special attacks.. yes.. there are no more SPELLS as we know it (that was it for me...)).. just like a Sorceress from the PC game Diablo.. it's always the same, all that changes is the powers you pick at each level. And it's the same with every class, they all look like pre-made characters.

Well.. to sum it up. I didn't have a good feeling about D&D 4th ed in the beginning and was considering Pathfinder as an alternative......... Now, I think Paizo should be given the rights to D&D. I am more excited about Pathfinder now, since it is the new D&D for me. Let's focus on polishing the details, some rule or other that's a little buggy and transform these Alpha releases into the new D&D.

As you guys take a look at the new 4th ed, please share your oppinions. (I say "take a look" because that's what you'll probably literally do, "look" at it, at the pictures...)


ledgabriel wrote:
there are no more SPELLS as we know it (that was it for me...))..

Arcane powers ARE spells (you should read better) and Rituals are Spells too. Read carefully there too :) And don't be critical just to be. PRPG will be a fine 3.99 version (it's getting too far FOR ME from 3.5 to be only 3.75) and DD4 will be another fine fantasy RPG, that's it!

Hyb'


Hybban wrote:


Arcane powers ARE spells (you should read better) and Rituals are Spells too.

Sorry, but these arcane spells do not feel like spells as they were in D&D for me... not at all...

Yes, the rituals are allright, they have a nice concept about them.

and like I said, the game does have a very nice concept, the ambiance is very nice... but the rules are Diablo for me. You choose a pre-made character, as you level up you pick some new powers and thats it.

C'mon.. pathfinder is much better than this 4th ed... they took the game too far from what D&D ever was.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion, Pawns, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber

It's true, spells do exit. Page 158..

Spellbook
You possess a spellbook, a book full of mystic lore in which you store your rituals and your daily and utility spells.

Rituals: Your book contains three 1st-level rituals of your choice that you have mastered. At 5th level, and again at 11th, 15th, 21st, and 25th
level, you master two more rituals of your choice and add them to your spellbook. Any ritual you add must be your level or lower.

Daily and Utility Spells: Your spellbook also holds your daily and utility spells. You begin knowing two daily spells, one of which you can use on any given day. Each time you gain a level that lets you select a daily spell or a utility spell, choose two different daily spells or utility spells of that level to add to your book. After an extended rest, you can prepare a number of daily and utility spells according to what you can cast per day for your level. You can’t prepare the same spell twice.

If you replace a spell because of gaining a level or through retraining, the previous spell vanishes from your spellbook and is replaced by the new spell.

Capacity: A typical spellbook has 128 pages. Each spell takes up 1 page. A ritual takes up a number of pages equal to its level.


nah.. I can't get the feeling.. and I'm reading and trying...

again.. Rituals are fine, nice implement to the game... the powers? tsk.. not spells.. look like fighter special attack

=======================================
Fireball Wizard Attack 5
Daily &#10022; Arcane, Fire, Implement
Standard Action Area burst 3 within 20 squares
Target: Each creature in burst
Attack: Intelligence vs. Reflex
Hit: 3d6 + Intelligence modifier fire damage.
===========================================

This is not Fireball...


Meteor Swarm Wizard Attack 29
Daily &#10022; Arcane, Fire, Implement
Standard Action Area burst 5 within 20 squares
Target: Each creature in burst
Attack: Intelligence vs. Reflex
Hit: 8d6 + Intelligence modifier fire damage.

This is a hell of a spell.. by 29th level you can cast Meteor Swarm once a day and deal 8d6 damage if you hit the target..... :p

Shadow Lodge

ledgabriel wrote:

Meteor Swarm Wizard Attack 29

Daily &#10022; Arcane, Fire, Implement
Standard Action Area burst 5 within 20 squares
Target: Each creature in burst
Attack: Intelligence vs. Reflex
Hit: 8d6 + Intelligence modifier fire damage.

This is a hell of a spell.. by 29th level you can cast Meteor Swarm once a day and deal 8d6 damage if you hit the target..... :p

I'm not sure simply reading the book is adequate for making that determination. Have you actually played it?

Seems to me that this is leveling of the playing field. Wizards and Druids will no longer reign supreme because they have been seriously nerfed and fighters turned in to wizards.

I haven't checked it out yet. Not entirely certain I'm interested. Personally I would like to see the game simplified a bit... but WOTCs simplification doesn't appear to be the way I would do it. Now everyone has powers or spells to keep track of.

-- Dennis


ledgabriel wrote:


Fireball Wizard Attack 5
Daily &#10022; Arcane, Fire, Implement
Standard Action Area burst 3 within 20 squares
Target: Each creature in burst
Attack: Intelligence vs. Reflex
Hit: 3d6 + Intelligence modifier fire damage.
===========================================

This is not Fireball..

Meteor Swarm Wizard Attack 29
Daily &#10022; Arcane, Fire, Implement
Standard Action Area burst 5 within 20 squares
Target: Each creature in burst
Attack: Intelligence vs. Reflex
Hit: 8d6 + Intelligence modifier fire damage.

This is a hell of a spell.. by 29th level you can cast Meteor Swarm once a day and deal 8d6 damage if you hit the target..... :p

There are both useful extrmely so, damage scales differently in 3E than it does in 4E.


ledgabriel wrote:

nah.. I can't get the feeling.. and I'm reading and trying...

again.. Rituals are fine, nice implement to the game... the powers? tsk.. not spells.. look like fighter special attack

=======================================
Fireball Wizard Attack 5
Daily &#10022; Arcane, Fire, Implement
Standard Action Area burst 3 within 20 squares
Target: Each creature in burst
Attack: Intelligence vs. Reflex
Hit: 3d6 + Intelligence modifier fire damage.
===========================================

This is not Fireball...

Indeed not: It's a cube, since diagonals are counted as 1 instead of 1.41 (or 1.5). :P

Liberty's Edge

I've been extensively playtesting 4E for some months now as one of the official playtesters. I've also been doing a regular game with my playtest group for a couple of months now. Quite simple, 4th Edition doesn't feel very much like D&D anymore. It's not a terrible game by any stretch of the imagination, but it's not D&D.

More to the point, your characters don't really change much across 30 levels. Your numbers get bigger all around, but your options never really increase past "hit it", "tactically hit it", "hit it and inflict a minor status effect", or "heal somebody". The "sweet spot" that the designers talk about a lot - the levels between 6 and 12 - have now been expanded so that the whole game plays like that.

And no, arcane powers aren't spells. They call themselves that, but they're not. Magic isn't... well, magical anymore. It works exactly like miracles, which work exactly like exploits, and the only thing that really varies is what stat you use to attack and what "implement" you use to get bonuses.

My group intensely disliked 4th Edition, and we're about as disparate a group of gamers as you could get. Everything from a "back in my day" grognard to a guy that started playing RPGs with 3.5E, and none of us liked it. It just came off flat and cold. The design work is beautiful, the layout of the books is gorgeous, some of my favorite artists (including William O'Connor) do the interiors, and the game itself is just not great.

YMMV, obviously, but that's my experience with 4E.

Jeremy Puckett

Dark Archive

hida_jiremi wrote:

I've been extensively playtesting 4E for some months now as one of the official playtesters. I've also been doing a regular game with my playtest group for a couple of months now. Quite simple, 4th Edition doesn't feel very much like D&D anymore. It's not a terrible game by any stretch of the imagination, but it's not D&D.

More to the point, your characters don't really change much across 30 levels. Your numbers get bigger all around, but your options never really increase past "hit it", "tactically hit it", "hit it and inflict a minor status effect", or "heal somebody". The "sweet spot" that the designers talk about a lot - the levels between 6 and 12 - have now been expanded so that the whole game plays like that.

And no, arcane powers aren't spells. They call themselves that, but they're not. Magic isn't... well, magical anymore. It works exactly like miracles, which work exactly like exploits, and the only thing that really varies is what stat you use to attack and what "implement" you use to get bonuses.

My group intensely disliked 4th Edition, and we're about as disparate a group of gamers as you could get. Everything from a "back in my day" grognard to a guy that started playing RPGs with 3.5E, and none of us liked it. It just came off flat and cold. The design work is beautiful, the layout of the books is gorgeous, some of my favorite artists (including William O'Connor) do the interiors, and the game itself is just not great.

YMMV, obviously, but that's my experience with 4E.

Jeremy Puckett

That pretty much sums up my conclusions after reading the 4E PHB that I borrowed from a friend.


if you can fake 4ed as D and D in your eyes, more power to you. I wish i could not sense that Dungeons and Dragons 4th ed failed it save versus Soul steal. I agree that the spells dont feel like spells. all of the flesh has been blasted of the Terminator robot that is Dungeons and Dragons, and it is ugly (if your into pistons and glaring red optic units, great)

there is a subtle dance of mechanics and drama. for example, a spell pool system gives the feeling that you are tapping a reserve of energy. That you can conjurer up magics but at the cost of your endurance. blast to many waves of fire and your head will swoon, to powerful of a spell and you might just knock yourself out!

once per encounter sounds good in mechanics (and is good mechanically) but how is that explained dramatically? and does that explanation match what the genre sells? at will abilities also may be good mechanically, but it takes the magic out of magic, and making it as mundane as a swordstroke. theres reasons why we dont have holidays everyday. one reason is that it would take the "special event" out of it.

outing staples for the flavor of the week is weak


KaeYoss wrote:
ledgabriel wrote:


This is not Fireball...
Indeed not: It's a cube, since diagonals are counted as 1 instead of 1.41 (or 1.5). :P

hhahaha... lol...rsrsrs...

Firecube; the last word on fire shaping...

---------

I might have been a little harsh on my first statement, I apologize if someone got offended; but it was a shock for me looking at the books (well, the pictures are very nice...). I really felt like the game lost its feeling, its flavor.

The game has always undergone changes since its beginning; from 2nd to 3rd (and removing the Advanced) was the biggest change so far, but it still felt like [Advanced] D&D, I will not be hypocrite and say I prefered the old editions, that I am an "old school guy", etc... 3rd edition was a big improvement, the rules were clearer, simpler, it allowed for much more character customization (more emphasis on skills, and the new concept of feats, etc...); I like the d20 system, it's not a perfect system but no one is.
Now, when you get a change, take a look at the new edition and tell me it feels like a good RPG, like D&D where you can "give life" to your character and not Diablo-pick-your-character-and-powerlist on tabletop(the pc game is fine, but not for a RPG).

I already had the impression 4th edition was more like videogame, now I confirmed it.

Now, these are MY impressions and feeling for the game, if anyone liked it, great! Have fun! People have differente tastes, some people can play a whole game with a punk-head vampire and painting dots on the character sheet (???... :P), some people love Gurps... I can't play into 30 minutes of that game withtout getting bored (actually in 30 minutes you don't do anything in gurps, since any action takes at least 2 hours to complete, looking at tables and calculating gazillions of stuff. I remember when I tried to pick up a knife on the floor... I decided later it was best to have left it there.). So, MY thought about the game is: It sucks. It doesn't work for me. It's too far from what I expect from a good RPG.

But casting Firecubes is awesome...

Sovereign Court

ledgabriel wrote:

nah.. I can't get the feeling.. and I'm reading and trying...

again.. Rituals are fine, nice implement to the game... the powers? tsk.. not spells.. look like fighter special attack

=======================================
Fireball Wizard Attack 5
Daily &#10022; Arcane, Fire, Implement
Standard Action Area burst 3 within 20 squares
Target: Each creature in burst
Attack: Intelligence vs. Reflex
Hit: 3d6 + Intelligence modifier fire damage.
===========================================

This is not Fireball...

I agree. Just because you call it a spell doesn't mean it feels like a spell. Change a few words and it becomes a fighter exploit or a paladin prayer. I can call power attack and magic missle both spells, but one feels and works like a spell and the other doesn't. This is a concept that the 4E designers seem to either not grasp or have ignored. Changing the name of something doesn't exactly change it's nature. You can call an apple an orange, but it doesn't make it true.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

To be fair, can someone show a Fighter Power/spell/little dance/whatever you want to call it, that is similar to the fireball?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I am shocked!

I mean, this is really surprising.

There are people out there that are actually surprised that the WotC RPG sucks bum??!!!!!!!

I don't believe it.

-W. E. Ray

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Healing Surge Activate

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Wonder Twin Powers Activate

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

"Ahhh! My arm was choped off and the ghost drained ten years away from me; I'd better sleep for 6 hours and get better."

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Matthew Morris wrote:
To be fair, can someone show a Fighter Power/spell/little dance/whatever you want to call it, that is similar to the fireball?

Dizzying Blow Fighter Attack 5

You crack your foe upside the head.
Daily * Martial, Reliable,Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 3[W] + Strength modifier damage, and the target is
immobilized (save ends).


hida_jiremi wrote:
I've been extensively playtesting 4E for some months now as one of the official playtesters. I've also been doing a regular game with my playtest group for a couple of months now. Quite simple, 4th Edition doesn't feel very much like D&D anymore. It's not a terrible game by any stretch of the imagination, but it's not D&D.

So the NDA has been lifted fully and you can talk about anything now? Must be a big relief.


KaeYoss wrote:
hida_jiremi wrote:
I've been extensively playtesting 4E for some months now as one of the official playtesters. I've also been doing a regular game with my playtest group for a couple of months now. Quite simple, 4th Edition doesn't feel very much like D&D anymore. It's not a terrible game by any stretch of the imagination, but it's not D&D.
So the NDA has been lifted fully and you can talk about anything now? Must be a big relief.

Um, okay, KaeYoss, what was the point in that? (Assuming you were indeed being as caustically sarcastic as I think you were.) Did he say something to which you took offense?

The Exchange

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Matthew Morris wrote:
To be fair, can someone show a Fighter Power/spell/little dance/whatever you want to call it, that is similar to the fireball?

I think the poster is trying to say is that you're not casting a spell, you are executing an action. The description is "spell-like", but the action, the way its presented, its mechanics, etc, are no different from any other action in the game. In other words, the spellcasting mechanic is the exact same as the fighter attack mechanic. In his mind, it doesn't feel different whichever route you take, you still do the same thing. In this case, I agree, but to play devil's advocate it means that it's up to you to provide the "feeling" behind the game, not the rules.

Case in point:

Unstoppable ..... Fighter Utility 2
You let your adrenaline surge carry you through the battle.
Daily * Healing, Martial
Minor Action Personal
Effect: You gain temporary hit points equal to 2d6 + your
Constitution modifier.

Cure Light Wounds ..... Cleric Utility 2
You utter a simple prayer and gain the power to instantly heal
wounds, and your touch momentarily suffuses you or a wounded
creature with a dim silver light.

Daily * Divine, Healing
Standard Action Melee touch
Target: You or one creature
Effect: The target regains hit points as if it had spent a healing
surge.

I also agree with the OP in that D&D feels ... sterile. The concepts are nice, but in execution it doesn't have all that "cool" that the designers have been dribbling about. I, like he, don't feel 'engaged' when I read the rules. I believe this is because of a combination of two elements:

1 - Its deliberate. (DMG, pg 151+)

  • "It’s Your World"
  • "Within those general parameters, though, there’s a lot of room for you to fill in the details."
  • "Where the core D&D rulebooks talk about the world, they drop names that exemplify the core assumptions—"
  • "Aside from these changeable assumed details, most of the specifics of the world are left to your own invention."
2 - The designers were so wrapped up in their own interpretation of the definition of "rich background" and "cool" that they did not realize they failed to convey that to the audience. (WARNING - Generalization only - some will find the books fascinating, some will not, and some will vary in the middle.)

...and again, leaving it for the players to provide the "feeling" for the game.

From my point of view:

4E is a fantasy RPG system divergent enough from D&D to have me, in my mind, just call it 4E and not D&D. It provides the mechanics and the baseline fluff for a competent DM and players to execute fantasy RPG gaming. It is a somewhat sterile system now, deliberately setting aside the fluff in the base rules (but which I expect to be added into the supporting materials.) My problem with the fluff is what we call in the instruction field 'the principle of primacy', or - first learned, most remembered. 4E makes a bold shift in core assumptions, such as racial dieties now being mass-worshipped, etc. and it's difficult for me, after playing not years, but decades, to shift things "first learned" around to the new definition of reality. Newer and younger players will have less difficulty with this.

All that being said, I am NOT impressed. Wrapped up with poor management and execution of the magazines, the debacle and confusion caused when "spoiling" the GSL, the lackluster promise of DDI, and the rather poor showing of the developers and staff in repeatedly lambasting D&D 3.5, and by association those that have loved 3.0/3.5 all this time has convinced me pretty much that 4e is NOT for me.

Viva le Pathfinder!


KaeYoss wrote:
So the NDA has been lifted fully and you can talk about anything now? Must be a big relief.

Ouch! Ok.. let's all have a drink...

Molech wrote:
"Ahhh! My arm was choped off and the ghost drained ten years away from me; I'd better sleep for 6 hours and get better."

yeah.. that too.. want anything more videogame-like like this? You click on the 'rest' button, watch some cutscene and you're completely renewed.

TigerDave wrote:
..and the rather poor showing of the developers and staff in repeatedly lambasting D&D 3.5,

Couldnt't agree more. You brought up a good point. So when they release 5th edition in two years now, they'll just go on 'lambasting' their 4th??? Their attitute was indeed very scre*** up.


OH.. there is a Paragon path for the Ranger that is called 'Pathfinder'; and guess what, one of their first 'powers' is called 'Wrong Step'.

Is it just me or it's too much for a coincidence?

So now in Pathfinder we'll just have all the 4th level Wizard spells have Magic-like text (Magic the Gathering)? Or maybe they'll have names like "Phoenix Down", "Fira", "Firaga", "Esuna".. with videogame art... :D:D:D

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

ledgabriel wrote:

OH.. there is a Paragon path for the Ranger that is called 'Pathfinder'; and guess what, one of their first 'powers' is called 'Wrong Step'.

Is it just me or it's too much for a coincidence?

So now in Pathfinder we'll just have all the 4th level Wizard spells have Magic-like text (Magic the Gathering)? Or maybe they'll have names like "Phoenix Down", "Fira", "Firaga", "Esuna".. with videogame art... :D:D:D

Already addressed in another thread.

That Paragon path was releasesd before the RPG.

Please keep the conspiracy theories out of it.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

TigerDave wrote:

From my point of view:

4E is a fantasy RPG system divergent enough from D&D to have me, in my mind, just call it 4E and not D&D. It provides the mechanics and the baseline fluff for a competent DM and players to execute fantasy RPG gaming. It is a somewhat sterile system now, deliberately setting aside the fluff in the base rules (but which I expect to be added into the supporting materials.) My problem with the fluff is what we call in the instruction field 'the principle of primacy', or - first learned, most remembered. 4E makes a bold shift in core assumptions, such as racial dieties now being mass-worshipped, etc. and it's difficult for me, after playing not years, but decades, to shift things "first learned" around to the new definition of reality. Newer and younger players will have less difficulty with this.

All that being said, I am NOT impressed. Wrapped up with poor management and execution of the magazines, the debacle and confusion caused when "spoiling" the GSL, the lackluster promise of DDI, and the rather poor showing of the developers and staff in repeatedly lambasting D&D 3.5, and by association those that have loved 3.0/3.5 all this time has convinced me pretty much that 4e is NOT for me.

Thanks for the example.

I think this is more of a deal breaker for me than I realized (not that I was getting it anyway, but please hear me out).

With OD&D-2e, the mechanics were often different on specials, but they made them unique. Grand Mastery vs Spell Casting vs Thief Percentages vs 1e psi vs 2e psi etc. The d20 engine made those rolls standard (fighter rolls d20 to hit, rogue rolls d20 to make skill check, mage rolls d20 to cast defensively) but everyone still had their schtick. Sure there were still some quirks, but they were D&D quirks (wizards suck at low levels, Clerics are band-aid boxes).

When WotC and 3rd party companies started branching out, the system showcased its flexibility. Psionics = point based casting, Psychics = hp based casting, Artificers and their infusions, etc. Even the failures, (Incarnum, I'm looking at you) were unique in flavour and mechanics.

I fear that's been lost in what I've seen in 4th, and it's not just the vancian casting.

Everything isn't like spells, they're like Maneuvers and Stances in Bo9S. That's not bad, but I can wrap my brain around the Maneuvers being martial arts/wuixa stuff. Also the 'Fire off one big gun a day' theory seems to fly against traditional flavour as well. But that's just me.

What if I want 2 extra per encounter and no dailies? What if I want a bunch of at will? What if I want the ability to Nova? That's what I mean.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I SO miss the Thief percentages back in the 80's.

.
.
.
You know, from what I've (lightly) observed of Paizo's Playtest, the one thing most people say they don't like is the Skills Set. I wonder if Jason maybe should consider turning skills back into percentages.

I know, I know, that defeats the d20 system, but maybe it is worth a little discussion to see not only if the gamers would be open to the possibility but also how much the d20 system would be "broken" because of it -- if a percentage-based Skills Set would adversly affect the rest of the game.

-W. E. Ray


I'm no expert in 2nd Ed. rules, but I think except presentation, percentile skills are the same thing as modifier based skills.

1 is 5%, 20 is 100% and to have a modifier of +15 means to have a 75% chance.


I feel like such a loser. I don't have the books already. :-(

Having DM'd through a night of Keep on the Shadowfell, I had a great time. But... I too am worried about characters never seeming to change with level.

But, the argument that all wizards (or fighters or rogues) will be the same is kinda silly. It was similar in 3E. In fact, I suspect that 4E characters in some instances (warriors in particular) will have more variety. I mean, every warrior in our gaming group uses a 2 handed weapon and power attack. Every one. They're all the same. I'm hoping 4E will have more variety on that end of things.


I've played 2 sessions in Keep on the Shadowfell so far, and have my books already, and I really enjoy 4e. At first I didn't see any point but after trying it, and playing a rogue and fighter for a session each, I can see the reasoning for many of the rules changes. I had lots of fun playing both classes as they are both very different in what they can do and how they fight. Roleplaying was never an issue in our group and there were lots of opportunities for it outside of combat. When we did fight, it was fast paced and challenging, with many fights becoming uncertain until the last few rounds. Powers are quite specific in what they do, but you can easily change it up with different kinds of narrative. For example, I used a single rogue at-will ability that distracts a foe before you jab him with your dagger. Once this involved me kicking dirt into the enemy's face and stabbing him, the second time it involved me pulling back a tree branch to snap at him with my dagger following close behind. The group thought I was using 2 different abilities until I pointed to the power on my sheet. So if a 4e game falls flat or gets boring, I don't think its fair to blame the rules entirely. I'd probably look to the players and DM first and see what they're doing wrong.

The PRPG is a nice alternative as well, since I know 3.5 does have some issues that needed to be addressed. We actually cancelled our Savage Tide 3.5 campaign after hitting level 15, as the game began to grind to a halt with the usual high-level play problems.

The game obviously isn't for everyone, but I see the Paizo/WotC split on 4e as a good thing, in that I can get awesome adventures and campaign setting material from Paizo while still using a new rules system I enjoy from WotC.

I'm actually gearing my old Savage Tide campaign group up for Rise of the Runelords, but I'll be running it in 4e. So we'll see how that goes.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Neithan, no problem, the 80s were 1E (not 2E) and the Thief character class had (I think) 10 skills that were 1-100 (not in increments of 5!).

let's see if I can remember them,

1)Pick Lock
2)Hide in Shadows
3)Move Silently
4)Pick Pockets
5)Read Languages

(Damn, it's been so long)...

6)Climb Walls

.
.
.

7)Find Trap

Um, . . .

Sovereign Court

It felt good to just walk past Keep on the... and just keep walking past without picking it up. Now that this stuff is out, it feels good to ignore it, wholesale. Sincerely, wotc has finally pushed this community too far, and myself as well as plenty others will never crack open the binding of 4e. And you know, its liberating to know that there is no such thing as "official content" anymore.

3.5 Never Dies.
PRPG Forever!

Paizo Employee Senior Software Developer

[moved thread to 4th edition forum]

The Exchange

Perhaps you could move it back - there is already enough bile here without having it imported from other boards.


Well, I do not have the books yet . . . just the adventure with the quick start rules and pre-gen characters.

My group is playing tonight for the first time, so we will see how it goes. At first glance, it seems just like an alternative D20 system and mechanically looks just as good as 3.5.

With that said, I am a little concerned how WoTC presented the rules as a conversion of a computer-like game atmosphere. However, it is really how the Game Master presents it to their players.

I remember flipping through 3rd Edition Player's as a GM (I've played since 1st Ed.) and cringing at the +20 to hit the spell True Strike gave a character - and it's 1st level, I thought.

Well, some other GMs I knew restricted that spell, while others continued to play 2nd Edition (and still do - go figure), but after playing the game, that spell along with other facets of the game began to look more like the D&D I knew and loved.

As a game designer, I am excited to dig in - as it is a refreshing change of pace and some of the elements run parallel with our own plans for the Feudal Lords campaign release.

As I discussed with Jonathan Tweet in another forum several months back, they designed a great game in 3rd Edition and 3.5 made it flow even better. It is a solid system. Maybe the reason it is so solid is that it borrowed a lot from other RPGs that developed in the wake of Gary Gygax's initial creation - in hopes to build a better mousetrap.

However, as contradictory as it may sound, it is a solid game because of its flexibility, with which myself, and many other 3rd party publishers could tweak or add new rules to the system mechanics without gumming up the works. I think 4th Edition will follow toward the same trend and you will soon begin to see 3.x-like elements in 4th Edition.

I am not a proponent for or against the latest D20 system, but if 4th Edition is a better game, I will play - if not, I still have all my 3.x books not far from reach.

Scarab Sages

0gre wrote:
I'm not sure simply reading the book is adequate for making that determination. Have you actually played it?

Gotta love this... :) First it's "you can't criticise it, you haven't even seen the books yet!" Now that the books are available... "You can't criticise it, you haven't even played it yet!"

Next will be "You can criticise it, you haven't played it for X hours yet, and you haven't played every class, and you haven't played every class to 30th level and cast every spell!"

Come on... If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck... do I really need to cook it up and taste it to be sure?


hmarcbower wrote:
0gre wrote:
I'm not sure simply reading the book is adequate for making that determination. Have you actually played it?

Gotta love this... :) First it's "you can't criticise it, you haven't even seen the books yet!" Now that the books are available... "You can't criticise it, you haven't even played it yet!"

Next will be "You can criticise it, you haven't played it for X hours yet, and you haven't played every class, and you haven't played every class to 30th level and cast every spell!"

Come on... If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck... do I really need to cook it up and taste it to be sure?

hahahahahaha... lol.. oh man, I laughed my as* off reading this.. ok, maybe it's the Whiskey, but it's still funny.

It's true what you said though. We have the books now, all three of them, if reading through the PHB, reading most of the DMG and examining the MM isn't enough to catch the feel of the game (and that considering people who are long time players, not young people having their first take on RPG), then I don't know what is.


... twas witty indeed!

I don't really like the skill list. I don't need to play to guess what kind of problems it's going to bring to character creation, and I say that speaking for myself only.

Still, the game has many merits, and it's a lot better than many games I've played and the rules are well organized, which is a major bonus.


Gary Teter wrote:
[moved thread to 4th edition forum]

I thought you guys were working to move these types of threads OUT of the 4e forum.


DudeMonkey wrote:
Gary Teter wrote:
[moved thread to 4th edition forum]
I thought you guys were working to move these types of threads OUT of the 4e forum.

Where is he supposed to put it?


Lord no, keep this tripe isolated (not to bash the cogent commentators on this thread, you know who you are).


Kruelaid wrote:
DudeMonkey wrote:
Gary Teter wrote:
[moved thread to 4th edition forum]
I thought you guys were working to move these types of threads OUT of the 4e forum.
Where is he supposed to put it?

Where was it originally?

I guess it doesn't matter at this point. With the "gift set" as the #2 seller on Amazon and the entire first print run sold out, there's no question about the game's success. The 4th edition of D&D is now D&D. And it looks good.


I know I have some personal bias... but honestly, this is what the people who own the rights to D&D felt was right for the game, and I think they're doing the best job they can. Ripping on the work they did is not accomplishing anything.

I think that it's silly to argue and gripe about a game which is firmly in place and choices which have been finalized. D&D 3.5 is great. Pathfinder RPG is great, too. D&D 4e is great as well.

That's just my opinion.

Thanks


Molech wrote:

Neithan, no problem, the 80s were 1E (not 2E) and the Thief character class had (I think) 10 skills that were 1-100 (not in increments of 5!).

let's see if I can remember them,

1)Pick Lock
2)Hide in Shadows
3)Move Silently
4)Pick Pockets
5)Read Languages

(Damn, it's been so long)...

6)Climb Walls

.
.
.

7)Find Trap

Um, . . .

Pick Pockets.

Open locks.
Find traps.
Move silently.
Hide in shadows.
Hear noise.
Climb walls.
Read languages.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
rockfall22 wrote:

I know I have some personal bias... but honestly, this is what the people who own the rights to D&D felt was right for the game, and I think they're doing the best job they can. Ripping on the work they did is not accomplishing anything.

I think that it's silly to argue and gripe about a game which is firmly in place and choices which have been finalized. D&D 3.5 is great. Pathfinder RPG is great, too. D&D 4e is great as well.

I always find this a fallible argument. A lot of people are discovering the rules of 4E right now, are dissatisfied and want to vent. What is wrong with that?

The way you seem to see it, everybody who dislikes something should just shut up and go away. Life doesn´t work this way.


magnuskn wrote:
rockfall22 wrote:

I know I have some personal bias... but honestly, this is what the people who own the rights to D&D felt was right for the game, and I think they're doing the best job they can. Ripping on the work they did is not accomplishing anything.

I think that it's silly to argue and gripe about a game which is firmly in place and choices which have been finalized. D&D 3.5 is great. Pathfinder RPG is great, too. D&D 4e is great as well.

I always find this a fallible argument. A lot of people are discovering the rules of 4E right now, are dissatisfied and want to vent. What is wrong with that?

The way you seem to see it, everybody who dislikes something should just shut up and go away. Life doesn´t work this way.

I'm rather sure what rockfall means is that 4th ed is a good game, but it may just not be a good game for you.

I personally find the game a great deal more limiting than 3.5, while everyone else harps on about the flexibility of the game I just find it to be incredibly structured to the point that everything basically just does one thing. I find it to be too simplified, too cut and dry.

Then again, I did once create a mecha RPG because I thought Battletech was 'too easy to make stuff for'.

Liberty's Edge

DudeMonkey wrote:
Kruelaid wrote:
DudeMonkey wrote:
Gary Teter wrote:
[moved thread to 4th edition forum]
I thought you guys were working to move these types of threads OUT of the 4e forum.
Where is he supposed to put it?

Where was it originally?

I guess it doesn't matter at this point. With the "gift set" as the #2 seller on Amazon and the entire first print run sold out, there's no question about the game's success. The 4th edition of D&D is now D&D. And it looks good.

HD-DVD players had the number one spot on Amazon for alot of the weeks it was in existence


ledgabriel wrote:
KaeYoss wrote:
ledgabriel wrote:


This is not Fireball...
Indeed not: It's a cube, since diagonals are counted as 1 instead of 1.41 (or 1.5). :P

Mmmmm Firecube.

Wizards will sell more books than before. This is the 'New Coke' but for a smaller scale. I'd wager they care little for us, but are hoping to hook the 'tweener' 11-17 year old market with this facile crap.

4th edition D&D + Wizards/Hasbro + Borders at the Mall = $$$

All the marketing majors and dilbert-like game designers at Wizards/Hasbro Inc. form your little circular firing squad, lock, load and fire!


ledgabriel wrote:

Meteor Swarm Wizard Attack 29

Daily &#10022; Arcane, Fire, Implement
Standard Action Area burst 5 within 20 squares
Target: Each creature in burst
Attack: Intelligence vs. Reflex
Hit: 8d6 + Intelligence modifier fire damage.

This is a hell of a spell.. by 29th level you can cast Meteor Swarm once a day and deal 8d6 damage if you hit the target..... :p

Really? That's a spell? Ok, cool...how do I transcribe it onto a scroll so that I can use it later, like say, after I actually cast that 'daily power'?

;)

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