Homosexuality in Golarion

[Alice Margatroid]

That's because people keep rehashing the same "discussion points" that constantly get the same responses. Really, do you think Fergurg is saying anything that hasn't been responded to a billion times before in this thread?

There is a reason I call it copypasta. It's so people can stop bloody repeating themselves. Instead, just copy-paste what's already been written.

I've yet to see very much in the way of "bridging any gaps" or "honest discussion between sides" in this thread. Most people want to come in and gripe a little that their religious or ethical views are not being supported, not actually discuss ANYTHING. It's fair enough to be upset about that, I don't begrudge people of that. But it's also it's incredibly frustrating to have to write the same post every week or two, over and over.

[thejeff]

DM Beckett wrote:

No offense Alice, but your lists really just kind of rehash the same sort of not actual discussion "responses" that people keep repeating a billion times. Things like "but they gays are peoplz 2" generally has nothing to do with the post that it is responding to, so rather than bridging any gaps or inviting any honest discussion between sides, all it does is say "this is the party line on that subject, and we can't really think of anything to helpful to say", which I doubt was your intent.

Do you disagree with the response? Or think that the question keep coming up?

Do you have a better response?

[DM Beckett]

@ Alice/TheJeff

So rehashing the same non-answers helps how exactly? Again, not trying to be a jerk, <ie if you are reading any tone into this except for polite and friendly suggestion, it's wrong>, just saying that that is a two way street. I'm just trying to politely point out that you are complaining that people keep saying the same thing, so your repost the sayings of the same thing with the lack of actual answers to said things, that in turn keep causing a lot of different people to say the same thing or repeat themselves over and over looking for discussion/answers related to what they said. . .

Get where I'm going here. :)

Alice Margatroid wrote:

Most people want to come in and gripe a little that their religious or ethical views are not being supported, not actually discuss ANYTHING.

So hurray for Paizo when inclusion helps your group of choice, but other people are dumb (not real people too argument out the window :) ), and it's okay that they didn't make the inclusion cut? insert jovial sarcasm in a Cajun accent as desired. (last parts a joke)

[Alice Margatroid]

It helps my sanity because I can just copypaste something instead of getting frustrated for the n-th time this month.

It is also, incidentally, pretty much the sum total of answers someone will get in this thread. If you have any suggestion for how the copypasta could be improved to better answer these questions, I'm all ears.

Do you think that the back-and-forth of people repeating themselves does the job better? Why is that?

Incidentally, it also doesn't stymie actual discussion. I'm sure if someone wanted to protest a given point they can do it just as easily as you do it now and people would step in to talk.

[thejeff]

DM Beckett wrote:

@ Alice/TheJeff

So rehashing the same non-answers helps how exactly? Again, not trying to be a jerk, <ie if you are reading any tone into this except for polite and friendly suggestion, it's wrong>, just saying that that is a two way street. I'm just trying to politely point out that you are complaining that people keep saying the same thing, so your repost the sayings of the same thing with the lack of actual answers to said things, that in turn keep causing a lot of different people to say the same thing or repeat themselves over and over looking for discussion/answers related to what they said. . .

Get where I'm going here. :)

1) Because they're not non-answers.

2) Because most often it's not the same people saying the same thing, but some new person dropping into the thread to make the same point as if it's some new pearl of wisdom.

I note you didn't choose to provide a better response or explain how you disagree with the one given.

[DM Beckett]

@ Alice: I'm certain that just about everyone, on all sides and everything in between is right there, too.

@TheJeff: So you want me to point out that in my opinion complaining about the same thing coming up and being unresolved over and over is unhelpful by copy/pasting the same things over and over, . . . by doing so even more. . .

I wouldn't say I disagree as much as see them as very one sided, and kind of ignore the actual questions or concerns in favor of repeating something unsatisfactory as an answer the first time, yet again. If that makes sense. If they where meaningful answers, I don't think they would be asked so often. I guess what I'm saying is that they are not the new pearl of wisdom either, but sort of pretend to claim to be.

[Gorbacz]

I'm slowly getting the idea that the problem some folks around here have is that their characteristic of preference is not included. So there stands a hardcore religious person and goes "great, you're including LGBT folks, you're including black/white folks, you're even including democrats and communists, but my Islam/Christianity/etc. is left out".

The problem, of course, comes from the fact that some characteristics do translate easily to a fantasy world (gender/sexuality/race/ethnicity/hair color/some political views) and some don't (religion/philosophy/culture/some political views). Having a black lesbian woman of strong libertarian views doesn't really shake the verisimilitude of a fantasy GRRM/Tolkien world much, but if she was to be a Mormon ... and not just "like a Mormon", but full on actual proper names and rites and holy books in your face variety ... Gandalf the Gay feels like something that could happen, Aragorn the Fundamentalist Salafi feels out of place. YMMV, 'f course.

And there's no simple solution if somebody thinks that there should be an option to play a Cleric of Buddha or something like that. Adding those elements in would require to build the entire campaign setting around the idea of including real-world religions. There are settings out there that actually pull that off (Ars Magica's Mythic Europe) but they are very, very specialized and specific.

[thejeff]

DM Beckett wrote:

@ Alice: I'm certain that just about everyone, on all sides and everything in between is right there, too.

@TheJeff: So you want me to point out that in my opinion complaining about the same thing coming up and being unresolved over and over is unhelpful by copy/pasting the same things over and over, . . . by doing so even more. . .

I wouldn't say I disagree as much as see them as very one sided, and kind of ignore the actual questions or concerns in favor of repeating something unsatisfactory as an answer the first time, yet again. If that makes sense. If they where meaningful answers, I don't think they would be asked so often. I guess what I'm saying is that they are not the new pearl of wisdom either, but sort of pretend to claim to be.

Think of them like FAQs. That the questions are often asked doesn't mean that the answers are wrong.

This is an internet debate. Nothing will ever be resolved. There will always be new people who haven't read the previous iterations. There will always be people on one side or the other too set in their ways to change their views. There will also always be trolls just trying to rile people up.
That doesn't mean that some won't change their minds. Or at least find some new perspective on things.

[Alice Margatroid]

I specifically wrote it as a "Guide to LGBT in Pathfinder". The answers are based on the most common sentiment expressed in this thread, including comments made by Paizo staff. As far as I can tell, it pretty much accurately sums up the stance Paizo takes with respect to LGBT representation in their works. Of course, it's unofficial, not an official view of Paizo, etc. etc. But I'm not going to turn around and say "Hey but some people disagree with this". That's a) kind of obvious, and b) kind of beside the point.

Again, if you think that I'm missing any detail or clarity in what thejeff accurately described as an FAQ, hit me up. I'll make a v1.2!

[MMCJawa]

ya know...Why does heterosexuality have to be in the setting? How much impact does it actually have on characters if they are bi or gay, and not straight. I would argue you could change the orientation/sex of most characters in an AP and it wouldn't influence the storyline at all

That's pretty much my response to a lot of the comments above.

[Mikaze]

MMCJawa wrote:

ya know...Why does heterosexuality have to be in the setting? How much impact does it actually have on characters if they are bi or gay, and not straight. I would argue you could change the orientation/sex of most characters in an AP and it wouldn't influence the storyline at all

That's pretty much my response to a lot of the comments above.

I was all set to explore these ideas in Sapphic Drider Empresses of Akiton but Paizo keeps declining my proposals.

Philistines.

[Matt Thomason]

Mikaze wrote:

I was all set to explore these ideas in Sapphic Drider Empresses of Akiton but Paizo keeps declining my proposals.

Philistines.

Self-publish!

[DM Beckett]

MMCJawa wrote:

ya know...Why does heterosexuality have to be in the setting? How much impact does it actually have on characters if they are bi or gay, and not straight. I would argue you could change the orientation/sex of most characters in an AP and it wouldn't influence the storyline at all

That's pretty much my response to a lot of the comments above.

Kind of hard to have a population if no one is making babies. . .

[Alice Margatroid]

Various species of lizards and insects beg to differ. ;)

[Tirisfal]

DM Beckett wrote:

MMCJawa wrote:

ya know...Why does heterosexuality have to be in the setting? How much impact does it actually have on characters if they are bi or gay, and not straight. I would argue you could change the orientation/sex of most characters in an AP and it wouldn't influence the storyline at all

That's pretty much my response to a lot of the comments above.

Kind of hard to have a population if no one is making babies. . .

MAGIC

[Alice Margatroid]

Btw, I think it would be really cool to have a reptilian or insectoid race be parthenogenetic. Maybe from one of the other planets in the solar system?

[Mikaze]

Alice Margatroid wrote:

Btw, I think it would be really cool to have a reptilian or insectoid race be parthenogenetic. Maybe from one of the other planets in the solar system?

Back in Planescape, this is exactly how lillends(lillendi) worked. :)

Mass Effect's Asari are another example of how this could work.

Matt Thomason wrote:

Self-publish!

My parents told me I would go blind if I did that. :(

[MMCJawa]

DM Beckett wrote:

MMCJawa wrote:

ya know...Why does heterosexuality have to be in the setting? How much impact does it actually have on characters if they are bi or gay, and not straight. I would argue you could change the orientation/sex of most characters in an AP and it wouldn't influence the storyline at all

That's pretty much my response to a lot of the comments above.

Kind of hard to have a population if no one is making babies. . .

Note the use of the term characters. not all the populace. I would argue with few exceptions (pregnant characters for instance), you could change the gender/sex/orientation of every character in a AP or module and IT WOULD MAKE NO DIFFERENCE TO THE STORY.

[DM Beckett]

I was referring to removing all heterosexuals from the setting. :)

Thats the very first sentance.

[MMCJawa]

(Science nerd tangent)

I don't know much about insect parthenogenesis, but at least in higher verts like lizards, it's interesting to note that many species of obligate parthenogenic species have uber-restricted ranges. Mostly because they are clonal and so have less genetic variation than their "parent" species. The only widespread obligate parthenogenetic reptiles that are widespread are some worm snakes and geckos; Those are all human commensals and their large range is due to being stowaways in lumber/potting soil/etc.

Since I am a bio nerd...I actually have a race of parthenogenic all female hominids in my fantasy setting. However, they can reproduce with normal humans, and "experimenting" with male humans is encouraged, since it increases the genetic variability, and the parthenogenic traits are sex linked and dominant, meaning that all females belong to the mother population, and all males are human.

David Brin's "Glory Season" is a great book to read if you are curious on how a "clonal" society of humans would work.

(Science nerd tangent off)

[Detect Magic]

As the foremost authority on love in Golarion, here's what Shelyn has to say on the subject:

"As the goddess of love, Shelyn encourages the proliferation of the feeling in all its forms. She is not the goddess of sexuality, lust, or fertility, and makes a very clear distinction between love and sexuality (although she does not in any way discourage erotic love). The few paladins who worship her practice courtly love, with female paladins attempting to win the attentions of attractive young noblemen (or sometimes, attractive young noblewomen). Shelyn and her clerics treat homosexual love as equal to heterosexual love."

[Tirisfal]

Detect Magic wrote:

As the foremost authority on love in Golarion, here's what Shelyn has to say on the subject:

"As the goddess of love, Shelyn encourages the proliferation of the feeling in all its forms. She is not the goddess of sexuality, lust, or fertility, and makes a very clear distinction between love and sexuality (although she does not in any way discourage erotic love). The few paladins who worship her practice courtly love, with female paladins attempting to win the attentions of attractive young noblemen (or sometimes, attractive young noblewomen). Shelyn and her clerics treat homosexual love as equal to heterosexual love."

And I should also point out that Sarenrae, Desna, and Shelyn have all been known to consort one another.

[Icyshadow]

For all I know, there's a drawing or two of that somewhere...

[Rysky]

There is indeed :3

/shameless

[Gorbacz]

Just so you folks know, I'm running a Skulls 'n' Shackles game where my one-year-left-to-our-wedding fiancee plays a female Varisian Rogue, and I'm romancing her in-game using a female elven pirate captain NPC. There long warm nights in a hammock involved. Yes, we're both hetero. Yes, everybody at the table loves this subplot. Yes, I know, this won't be able to register with some brains around here. Yes, I don't care.

[Alice Margatroid]

My girlfriend does not play much Pathfinder purely because of time constraints, but we do enjoy being somewhat in-character with our Guild Wars 2 characters and making up cool stories to connect them. We have a lesbian sylvari (elf-like plant people) couple and a heterosexual charr (lion-like catfolk) couple (although my [female] charr is kind of tsundere for him because she's too aloof...) that we ham it up with sometimes.

Playing this stuff up is super fun, so I totally get it, Gorbacz. :P

Sylvari and Charr are super awesome btw and I would kill to play a similar kind of race in Pathfinder. (Genderqueer rainbow bisexual plant people! Awesome badass catfolk where gender doesn't matter so long as you can kill people! Aw yeah!)

[Mikaze]

Alice Margatroid wrote:

Sylvari and Charr are super awesome btw and I would kill to play a similar kind of race in Pathfinder. (Genderqueer rainbow bisexual plant people! Awesome badass catfolk where gender doesn't matter so long as you can kill people! Aw yeah!)

I'll try to pop back in with more info on these when I get the time tomorrow, but you might be interested in the Ghoran from Inner Sea Bestiary(plant people originally created as food) and Ambrosia Slaad's Skindancers from Wayfinder #7(humanoid shapeshifters with a bit of cephalopod features going on that EASILY could be genderqueer as the norm). Both races are awesome, flavorful, and balanced for players. :)

Regarding playing specific sexualities:

Got a male bisexual celestial sorcerer in a Carrion Crown campaign.

Thinking about it further, Liath Samathran, my tiefling paladin is definitely bisexual, though it'll probably take him a while to figure that out. That's probably going to be another source for his guilt complex, but not for the orientation so much as the likely ___cubus ancestry he's likely going to attribute it to. Guy needs to have a talk with an Arshean, Lymnierisian, or Shelynite bad. As long as he's in denial or guilt tripping over it, it might actually become a major vulnerability.

Spoiler:

Man, meeting Ayavah from the Magnimar book would blow his mind on so many levels. And would probably be one of the best things that could happen to him as far as getting his head in a better place.

[Alice Margatroid]

Mikaze,

this is mostly offtopic:

One thing I particularly love about the Charr is that males and females basically look very similar. Female charr are often slightly less muscular and more lithe than most male charr, but not all of them, and overall most non-charr wouldn't be able to tell them apart easily. (Heck - most PLAYERS can't tell them apart...) They likewise do not have human-like breasts - because that sort of thing would get in the way of their armour and be a liability in battle. (This is actually a conscious design decision on behalf of the lore team, actually.)

The fact that badass women charr trained in secret and wound up being incredibly instrumental in liberating the race from the evil god worshipping shamans that controlled them (and forced female charrs to be nothing but baby makers for a long time) is icing on the cake... :) And now everyone's 100% equal based on their military prowess.

Basically, I really feel like too many of the "monstrous" races have females being "monster + boobs". Are either of the races you mentioned there NOT like that?

I will have a look into both of them though, thanks!

[thejeff]

DM Beckett wrote:

MMCJawa wrote:

ya know...Why does heterosexuality have to be in the setting? How much impact does it actually have on characters if they are bi or gay, and not straight. I would argue you could change the orientation/sex of most characters in an AP and it wouldn't influence the storyline at all

That's pretty much my response to a lot of the comments above.

Kind of hard to have a population if no one is making babies. . .

Everyone being bi or gay doesn't prevent them from making babies. The bi ones fairly obviously, but even gay people are capable of having heterosexual sex. It would be weird, but it's certainly possible to imagine a fantasy society (or race?) where everyone was homosexual but would grudgingly "do their duty" when needed to keep the population going.

[Icyshadow]

Alice Margatroid wrote:

Mikaze,

** spoiler omitted **

Response to off-topic:

I'm okay with such things when it comes to races and gender, so long as it makes sense in context.

Then again, I'm the guy who considers the holstaur as a legitimate off-shoot of the minotaur so make what you will of that >_>'

Yeah, even if everyone was homosexual or bi, they'd still be aware of the fact that they'd need do have some heterosexual sex for breeding purposes so they won't go extinct in the next generation. Your sexual orientation does not affect your level of common sense, after all.

[DM Beckett]

Not if you took all heterosexuality out of the game/setting/world, no there wouldn't. :)

Think about it on this terminology. They might be universally gay or bi, but have no hetero tendencies.

[thejeff]

DM Beckett wrote:

Not if you took all heterosexuality out of the game/setting/world, no there wouldn't. :)

Think about it on this terminology. They might be universally gay or bi, but have no hetero tendencies.

I'm not at all sure how you get "bi" with "no hetero tendencies"?

If everyone was bi, there'd still plenty of hetero sex, or at least attraction around. Otherwise, we'd just say everyone was gay.

[DM Beckett]

Ok you remove all sex that involves opposite genders and now you have homosexual sex and bi sex (except no opposite genders now).

Minus the brilliant idea of "magic" where everyone's walking around with 7th level spells and thousands of gp above what they are suppossed to make in a life time = no babymakin'. :)

[Icyshadow]

How can you have bi sex without opposite genders?

Beckett, there's a logic error in your argument. Please fix it.

[ShadowcatX]

4,400 posts on the topic of which fictional characters are sleeping with which other fictional characters. . . I am impressed.

[Tirisfal]

DM Beckett wrote:

Ok you remove all sex that involves opposite genders and now you have homosexual sex and bi sex (except no opposite genders now).

Minus the brilliant idea of "magic" where everyone's walking around with 7th level spells and thousands of gp above what they are suppossed to make in a life time = no babymakin'. :)

Um, I'm bi, and I've been in a committed relationship with a woman for 9 years, so...

She's bi too, so maybe that's what you mean by "bi sex"??

Does not compute.

:/

[Tirisfal]

thejeff wrote:

DM Beckett wrote:

MMCJawa wrote:

ya know...Why does heterosexuality have to be in the setting? How much impact does it actually have on characters if they are bi or gay, and not straight. I would argue you could change the orientation/sex of most characters in an AP and it wouldn't influence the storyline at all

That's pretty much my response to a lot of the comments above.

Kind of hard to have a population if no one is making babies. . .

Everyone being bi or gay doesn't prevent them from making babies. The bi ones fairly obviously, but even gay people are capable of having heterosexual sex. It would be weird, but it's certainly possible to imagine a fantasy society (or race?) where everyone was homosexual but would grudgingly "do their duty" when needed to keep the population going.

Just like Giraffes! :D

[Matt Thomason]

thejeff wrote:

Everyone being bi or gay doesn't prevent them from making babies. The bi ones fairly obviously, but even gay people are capable of having heterosexual sex. It would be weird, but it's certainly possible to imagine a fantasy society (or race?) where everyone was homosexual but would grudgingly "do their duty" when needed to keep the population going.

This causes me to wonder what the effects of a male getting pregnant while polymorphed into female form would be. Or whether a female polymorphed to a male would be able to, um, provide the necessary. It's a society with magic, may as well make use of it.

[Kittyburger]

Matt Thomason wrote:

thejeff wrote:

Everyone being bi or gay doesn't prevent them from making babies. The bi ones fairly obviously, but even gay people are capable of having heterosexual sex. It would be weird, but it's certainly possible to imagine a fantasy society (or race?) where everyone was homosexual but would grudgingly "do their duty" when needed to keep the population going.

This causes me to wonder what the effects of a male getting pregnant while polymorphed into female form would be. Or whether a female polymorphed to a male would be able to, um, provide the necessary. It's a society with magic, may as well make use of it.

There are three schools of thought about this, all from the Ranma 1/2 fandom.

School A is that Ranma would have to carefully avoid hot water for the duration.

School B is that Ranma would be locked into female form for the duration by the curse, regardless of hot or cold water.

School T (for Takahashi Rumiko) is "I don't think about that, and neither should you."

[Alice Margatroid]

I am pretty sure every single Ranma 1/2 fan has thought about that at some stage though... *snort*

[DM Beckett]

Icyshadow wrote:

How can you have bi sex without opposite genders?

Beckett, there's a logic error in your argument. Please fix it.

Well, theres certainly a logic error. Its like telling a joke that goes over the head even after explaining the punchline, time to just move on. :)

[Lloyd Jackson]

Just popping in to add my two cents on a few things.

1) I like our first transgendered(?) NPC of note. Seriously, in a world with cursed belts of change-gender more people haven't done this before? I also like the previous one, brief mention in the article about the Grey Maidens. However, I do have some beefs. Why were both men->women? Surely some Brevic maiden has dreamed of being a knight and made the switch.

2) Homesexual relationships outnumbering heterosexual ones? Really? This AP has the most involved/reoccuring NPCs since Jade Regent and so far, and odds aren't looking good for later, and all, well both, are homosexual. Let's spread the love around.