Homosexuality in Golarion


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

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DM Beckett wrote:
KSF wrote:
DM Beckett wrote:
You trying to convince us or yourself?

Are you saying there is something fundamentally unusual about Anevia and her wife, within the adventure as presented? Because as Paul Watson says above, there isn't.

Or are you saying Kittyburger is incorrect about what she describes as a common tactic? Because the latter does seem to be true, as several posts in this thread indicate.

I am saying that some people do have issues with the character and the common tactic is to just outshout them. Also, a vast amount of posts about his had been censored from this and the product page.

So you'd agree, then, there's nothing fundamentally unusual about Anevia and her wife, within the adventure as presented?

(This doesn't constitute shouting, I hope.)


stuart haffenden wrote:

Would it be possible to have some gay non-humans?

Maybe gay Dwarves or something?

The couple of late controversy includes a half-orc. I don't see why gay dwarves would be any more difficult than gay humans...or any more acceptable to the haters.


Samnell wrote:
stuart haffenden wrote:

Would it be possible to have some gay non-humans?

Maybe gay Dwarves or something?

The couple of late controversy includes a half-orc. I don't see why gay dwarves would be any more difficult than gay humans...or any more acceptable to the haters.

Wasn't there some speculation at some point of Harsk possibly being one of the gay iconics at some point?

Shadow Lodge

stuart haffenden wrote:

Would it be possible to have some gay non-humans?

Maybe gay Dwarves or something?

I'd really like to see how Dwarven culture handles this, actually. I might be confusing it with another setting, but I could have sworn than way back in the Pathfinder day, there was a story about a Dwarf that had been kicked out for, not specifically being gay, but indirectly for a lot of the things that came with that.

I'm also pretty sure the Ranger Icon may be gay, too, if not previously female.


I think I read somewhere in a thing that gay dwarfs were really rare, but if you adhered to all the other stuff in dwarf culture no one really gave a crap? Unsure.


It would be in contrast to the traditionalism of Dwarven culture yeah, as presented.


Harsk was kinda kicked out for liking the forest more than the caves like a proper dwarf, but there's no hint of his sexuality being any kind of issue.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Kyra the cleric is the gay iconic.

Dark Archive

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Some of the races seem to have more flexible definitions anyway.

"By elven standards, he's queer."

"What do you mean?"

"He only likes women, and only elf-women, at that. It's quite the scandal back home. An elf of his age is supposed to get that 'spring fever' out of his system with human lovers he'll never see again, not hang around the court chatting up young elven ladies, who won't be ready for the commitment or responsibilities of parenthood for another century or so."


DM Beckett wrote:
stuart haffenden wrote:

Would it be possible to have some gay non-humans?

Maybe gay Dwarves or something?

I'd really like to see how Dwarven culture handles this, actually. I might be confusing it with another setting, but I could have sworn than way back in the Pathfinder day, there was a story about a Dwarf that had been kicked out for, not specifically being gay, but indirectly for a lot of the things that came with that.

I'm also pretty sure the Ranger Icon may be gay, too, if not previously female.

Unless I'm hallucinating, which is not an entirely ruled out possibility, Harsk was the implied -asexual- iconic, what with his quest for Brother-Vengeance and all.

Most assumptions of his orientation I think came of him not chatting up the lasses and the fact that he favors strong tea over booze, given the accurate portrayal of favoring a stimulant to enhance his awareness versus impairing intoxicants...and whatever implications came of a non-boozehound dwarf.

Personally, I somewhat ruled out Harsk if only for the asexuality and the fact that dwarves aren't the low-fecundity race anymore in Golarion, or so I recall. Admittedly, in my games, that tends to stay a thing if only because it's the favored source of angst for my players...and something they heavily enjoy exploring in regards to intimate relationships and people mistaking gay male dwarves for females due to an ancient misunderstanding that humans have never really collectively gotten over.

Yes, in my campaign, humanity is somewhat...oblivious.


Generic Villain wrote:
Kyra the cleric is the gay iconic.

Correct, but my understanding is that there was more than one. I don't think it's Harsk, I just remember, in the last round of speculation on the top, some people thought he might be.


Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:
Harsk was kinda kicked out for liking the forest more than the caves like a proper dwarf, but there's no hint of his sexuality being any kind of issue.

Maybe he's a dendrophiliac?


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
KSF wrote:

Correct, but my understanding is that there was more than one. I don't think it's Harsk, I just remember, in the last round of speculation on the top, some people thought he might be.

Ah thanks, didn't know that. In that case I'm going with Ezren.

Grand Lodge

Generic Villain wrote:
KSF wrote:

Correct, but my understanding is that there was more than one. I don't think it's Harsk, I just remember, in the last round of speculation on the top, some people thought he might be.

Ah thanks, didn't know that. In that case I'm going with Ezren.

Part of me feels that Ezren is so predictable because he's old and most people who are playing, who are probably on the low side of 40, are likely to see old people - particularly men - as inherently asexual, so making him gay is a low-risk move.

I've thought Valeros to be either gay or bi, on the other hand, basically since Rise of the Runelords came out. His behavior in the comics generally points me toward bi, though.

Shadow Lodge

Kittyburger wrote:
Generic Villain wrote:
KSF wrote:

Correct, but my understanding is that there was more than one. I don't think it's Harsk, I just remember, in the last round of speculation on the top, some people thought he might be.

Ah thanks, didn't know that. In that case I'm going with Ezren.

Part of me feels that Ezren is so predictable because he's old and most people who are playing, who are probably on the low side of 40, are likely to see old people - particularly men - as inherently asexual, so making him gay is a low-risk move.

I've thought Valeros to be either gay or bi, on the other hand, basically since Rise of the Runelords came out. His behavior in the comics generally points me toward bi, though.

I said it was far, far to cliché and childish to be Kyra as well, and you see where that got us.

Silver Crusade

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DM Beckett wrote:
Kittyburger wrote:
Generic Villain wrote:
KSF wrote:

Correct, but my understanding is that there was more than one. I don't think it's Harsk, I just remember, in the last round of speculation on the top, some people thought he might be.

Ah thanks, didn't know that. In that case I'm going with Ezren.

Part of me feels that Ezren is so predictable because he's old and most people who are playing, who are probably on the low side of 40, are likely to see old people - particularly men - as inherently asexual, so making him gay is a low-risk move.

I've thought Valeros to be either gay or bi, on the other hand, basically since Rise of the Runelords came out. His behavior in the comics generally points me toward bi, though.

I said it was far, far to cliché and childish to be Kyra as well, and you see where that got us.

I'm not seeing it...

I can't imagine many religious homosexuals finding it cliche or childish either.

Silver Crusade

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Also, if Harsk does turn out to be gay I win Internet money for predicting bear!Harsk from Day One.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
DM Beckett wrote:
Kittyburger wrote:
Generic Villain wrote:
KSF wrote:

Correct, but my understanding is that there was more than one. I don't think it's Harsk, I just remember, in the last round of speculation on the top, some people thought he might be.

Ah thanks, didn't know that. In that case I'm going with Ezren.

Part of me feels that Ezren is so predictable because he's old and most people who are playing, who are probably on the low side of 40, are likely to see old people - particularly men - as inherently asexual, so making him gay is a low-risk move.

I've thought Valeros to be either gay or bi, on the other hand, basically since Rise of the Runelords came out. His behavior in the comics generally points me toward bi, though.

I said it was far, far to cliché and childish to be Kyra as well, and you see where that got us.

Phew, we're lucky it wasn't Seelah! Heavens know what kind of hole in reality would be torn asunder if there would be a not-straight, black, female fictional Knight of Jesus Christ, excuse me, Paladin!

Grand Lodge

Gorbacz wrote:
DM Beckett wrote:
Kittyburger wrote:
Generic Villain wrote:
KSF wrote:

Correct, but my understanding is that there was more than one. I don't think it's Harsk, I just remember, in the last round of speculation on the top, some people thought he might be.

Ah thanks, didn't know that. In that case I'm going with Ezren.

Part of me feels that Ezren is so predictable because he's old and most people who are playing, who are probably on the low side of 40, are likely to see old people - particularly men - as inherently asexual, so making him gay is a low-risk move.

I've thought Valeros to be either gay or bi, on the other hand, basically since Rise of the Runelords came out. His behavior in the comics generally points me toward bi, though.

I said it was far, far to cliché and childish to be Kyra as well, and you see where that got us.
Phew, we're lucky it wasn't Seelah! Heavens know what kind of hole in reality would be torn asunder if there would be a not-straight, black, female fictional Knight of Jesus Christ, excuse me, Paladin!

Oh, in my headcanon, Seelah is trans. ;)

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Hmm it might be Alain, dood has to have at least one redeeming feature.

Shadow Lodge

Gorbacz wrote:
DM Beckett wrote:
Kittyburger wrote:
Generic Villain wrote:
KSF wrote:

Correct, but my understanding is that there was more than one. I don't think it's Harsk, I just remember, in the last round of speculation on the top, some people thought he might be.

Ah thanks, didn't know that. In that case I'm going with Ezren.

Part of me feels that Ezren is so predictable because he's old and most people who are playing, who are probably on the low side of 40, are likely to see old people - particularly men - as inherently asexual, so making him gay is a low-risk move.

I've thought Valeros to be either gay or bi, on the other hand, basically since Rise of the Runelords came out. His behavior in the comics generally points me toward bi, though.

I said it was far, far to cliché and childish to be Kyra as well, and you see where that got us.
Phew, we're lucky it wasn't Seelah! Heavens know what kind of hole in reality would be torn asunder if there would be a not-straight, black, female fictional Knight of Jesus Christ, excuse me, Paladin!

Ranting about something aside, I assumed it would be. Something about her bone structure never really sat right with me for a female.


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Rysky wrote:
Hmm it might be Alain, dood has to have at least one redeeming feature.

At great peril I will state I don't see how sexuality one way or another is a 'redeeming feature'.

For me it comes down to, "I like sex"

having an adjective before that doesn't make it inherently better (though it can make it much worst).


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only had time to briefly skin the Sword of Valor, but two of the new prominent NPCs are a gay black Cleric of Shelyn and his Low Templar lover, who is recovering from addiction.


Abraham spalding wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Hmm it might be Alain, dood has to have at least one redeeming feature.

At great peril I will state I don't see how sexuality one way or another is a 'redeeming feature'.

For me it comes down to, "I like sex"

having an adjective before that doesn't make it inherently better (though it can make it much worst).

Adjectives such as... No, I just can't do this.

Shadow Lodge

Rysky wrote:
Hmm it might be Alain, dood has to have at least one redeeming feature.

Ain't it funny how this is allowed to stand, but if the reverse was stated, people would be all over it fir bigotry?

Dark Archive

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Kthulhu wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Hmm it might be Alain, dood has to have at least one redeeming feature.
Ain't it funny how this is allowed to stand, but if the reverse was stated, people would be all over it fir bigotry?

And by 'allowed to stand' you mean '50% of the responses that followed it are questioning whether or not it's appropriate?'

'Cause that doesn't seem much like 'allowed to stand,' to me. It's a questionable comment, and rightly has been called out as such.

If you think it warrants flagging, flag it and move on, don't cast aspersions at others.

Grand Lodge

Kthulhu wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Hmm it might be Alain, dood has to have at least one redeeming feature.
Ain't it funny how this is allowed to stand, but if the reverse was stated, people would be all over it fir bigotry?

The reverse statement has been used to justify murder and torture. This statement hasn't.


Set wrote:
Kthulhu wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Hmm it might be Alain, dood has to have at least one redeeming feature.
Ain't it funny how this is allowed to stand, but if the reverse was stated, people would be all over it fir bigotry?

And by 'allowed to stand' you mean '50% of the responses that followed it are questioning whether or not it's appropriate?'

'Cause that doesn't seem much like 'allowed to stand,' to me. It's a questionable comment, and rightly has been called out as such.

If you think it warrants flagging, flag it and move on, don't cast aspersions at others.

Yeah I was about to it was called out be me as soon as I saw it.


Context, that is all.


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Icyshadow wrote:
Context, that is all.

I'm not sure how context changes this.

Dude is a horrible person -- being gay wouldn't make him better just like being straight doesn't make him better (and neither makes him worse).


Abraham spalding wrote:
Icyshadow wrote:
Context, that is all.

I'm not sure how context changes this.

Dude is a horrible person -- being gay wouldn't make him better just like being straight doesn't make him better (and neither makes him worse).

I agree with you, but I also accept the fact that not everyone would think the same way.

Also, I'm rather baffled by Alain being of a non-Evil alignment after reading up on him and his antics.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Icyshadow wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:
Icyshadow wrote:
Context, that is all.

I'm not sure how context changes this.

Dude is a horrible person -- being gay wouldn't make him better just like being straight doesn't make him better (and neither makes him worse).

I agree with you, but I also accept the fact that not everyone would think the same way.

Also, I'm rather baffled by Alain being of a non-Evil alignment after reading up on him and his antics.

I don't see Alain as evil. Surely he's arrogant, boatful, and selfish, but the only really nasty thing he did was to rough up Damiel a bit, but to be fair, the alchemist had it coming.


If you have no redeeming feature and act like a selfish arse 24/7, you are Evil in my books.

That, and it's hinted that people have gotten killed in the past thanks to his actions.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Alain is Neutral for the simple reasoning that he doesn't have a personal agenda of 'make the world worse for everyone but me'. Yes, he is a spiteful, self-absorbed ass, but he has never been documented as actively trying (Or even wanting) to make life & the world around him into more of a s!*!-hole.
As near as I have been able to tell from observing Paizo's NPC/Monster Alignment proclivities, that is what makes one Evil.

Shadow Lodge

Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal wrote:

Alain is Neutral for the simple reasoning that he doesn't have a personal agenda of 'make the world worse for everyone but me'. Yes, he is a spiteful, self-absorbed ass, but he has never been documented as actively trying (Or even wanting) to make life & the world around him into more of a s##&-hole.

As near as I have been able to tell from observing Paizo's NPC/Monster Alignment proclivities, that is what makes one Evil.

You do not have to have a personal agenda to make the world worse to be evil. Being a spiteful, and a self-absorbed ass is enough, by definition.

Grand Lodge

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DM Beckett wrote:
Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal wrote:

Alain is Neutral for the simple reasoning that he doesn't have a personal agenda of 'make the world worse for everyone but me'. Yes, he is a spiteful, self-absorbed ass, but he has never been documented as actively trying (Or even wanting) to make life & the world around him into more of a s##&-hole.

As near as I have been able to tell from observing Paizo's NPC/Monster Alignment proclivities, that is what makes one Evil.
You do not have to have a personal agenda to make the world worse to be evil. Being a spiteful, and a self-absorbed ass is enough, by definition.

It takes more than self-centeredness to be Evil, though - evil is in causing harm, not JUST in being selfish and spiteful. In Les Miserables, Javert is a spiteful jerk with a rigid view of the law, and yet he is not in the D&D sense of the term Evil - he's Lawful Neutral. The Thenardiers, on the other hand, actively harm their customers (Monsieur Thenardier, in song, boasts of watering down the drinks, making sausages with random dead animals, random charges for bad reasons, petty theft, and fraud). Thenardier is evil - a fairly banal, petty sort of evil, but still evil.


I think we've gotten a little off topic here...

Liberty's Edge

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You must be new here. Half this thread is off-topic. :)


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Kittyburger wrote:

Part of me feels that Ezren is so predictable because he's old and most people who are playing, who are probably on the low side of 40, are likely to see old people - particularly men - as inherently asexual, so making him gay is a low-risk move.

Low-risk? I didn't realize the inclusion of LGBT characters was predicated on how much of a wave they would cause. Also, I think you did a fair job of marginalizing every gay guy with gray hair.

Grand Lodge

Generic Villain wrote:
Kittyburger wrote:

Part of me feels that Ezren is so predictable because he's old and most people who are playing, who are probably on the low side of 40, are likely to see old people - particularly men - as inherently asexual, so making him gay is a low-risk move.

Low-risk? I didn't realize the inclusion of LGBT characters was predicated on how much of a wave they would cause. Also, I think you did a fair job of marginalizing every gay guy with gray hair.

Yeah, in retrospect that wasn't really a good thing to say. I'm still not that big a fan of Gay!Ezren, that said.

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Meh, all this rehashing the same points ad nauseum has grown tiresome, especially when we are ignoring the Real Threattm to Pathfinder and Golarion: while we've been squabbling, Sebastian has sired... an (adorable) abomination! I mean, when he bragged about bunnies and cocaine, I just assumed (demi)human Playboy bunnies...

I eagerly(?!) await Little Fufu's announcement as the iconic anti-paladin.

Paizo Employee Customer Service Dire Care Bear Manager

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DM Beckett wrote:
... Something about her bone structure never really sat right with me for a female.

(taking of moderator hat and putting on fangirl shoes)

Please reconsider basing your idea of someone's gender on what you think a specific gender's "bone structure" should look like. Not being "xgendered looking enough" is a common point of insecurity for many people, both trans and CIS-gendered.


Kittyburger wrote:
Part of me feels that Ezren is so predictable because he's old and most people who are playing, who are probably on the low side of 40, are likely to see old people - particularly men - as inherently asexual, so making him gay is a low-risk move.

Seriously? Ezren is hot. I guess some folks have disappointingly narrow tastes.

Grand Lodge

TanithT wrote:
Kittyburger wrote:
Part of me feels that Ezren is so predictable because he's old and most people who are playing, who are probably on the low side of 40, are likely to see old people - particularly men - as inherently asexual, so making him gay is a low-risk move.
Seriously? Ezren is hot. I guess some folks have disappointingly narrow tastes.

I think part of this comment came from my disappointment with the way that Dumbledore was treated by JK Rowling in the Potterverse (it would not have hurt at all for Dumbledore to have had a romantic encounter in the books, instead of finding out through Word of God after the series was all over that Dumbledore was gay).


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Kittyburger wrote:
TanithT wrote:
Kittyburger wrote:
Part of me feels that Ezren is so predictable because he's old and most people who are playing, who are probably on the low side of 40, are likely to see old people - particularly men - as inherently asexual, so making him gay is a low-risk move.
Seriously? Ezren is hot. I guess some folks have disappointingly narrow tastes.
I think part of this comment came from my disappointment with the way that Dumbledore was treated by JK Rowling in the Potterverse (it would not have hurt at all for Dumbledore to have had a romantic encounter in the books, instead of finding out through Word of God after the series was all over that Dumbledore was gay).

Except that it would have needed to come through Harry's eyes, since the whole thing was Harry POV.

So, not only would she have needed an excuse for Harry to know about it, but she'd also have to include a tract about what the Wizarding world thought about homosexuality.

It's not quite as simple as it seems.

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